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msnbc coverage of the total eclipse. more tan 180 million of you have a chance to be part of a incredible moment thanks to mother nature. this is the view from houlton, maine. we'll bring you highlights but we start on another front and the news breaking today about that legal hail mary from donald trump on the eve of the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. that trial set to start in just over one week. it is truly the case that has it all. a porn star named stormy and a witness named hope and a tabloid cover-up and a former fixer turned star witness, overseeing this uniquely trumpian circus turned criminal trial judge marchan. 13 years as providing judge in the mental health he create and he has had his share of unusual cases there was a murder trial

involving a curse on the defendant and the daredevils who jumped off the world trade center in parachutes and a soccer mom madam accused of running a high end brothel on the upper east side. none of them challenged the judge quite like trump. who for decades has navigated around law enforcement scrutiny. as we've reported on this broadcast, trump has attacked the judge's daughter. on that, the times reports that two people close to the justice said that the judge had privately expressed pain over the attacks on hi daughter but will not compromise his ability to see over the case. and while trump is on a gag order to prevent him going after families, the attorneys have brought up his daughter in yet another last-minute bid to derail the trial. they're asking for the judge to recuse himself over his daughter's work in democrat

politics. prosecutors firing back in a filing against merchan saying the defendant's motion is not a good faith effort to identify legitimate grounds for this court's recusal. in stead this is an effort to end the report restricting gentleman judicial speech and pollute the court files and have attacks against the court and the court's family. it is part of a meritless effort to call the integrity of these proceedings into question. the d.a. adding that this is all part of trump's strategy, one that he has used in all four of the criminal cases against him. that is to delegitimatize the process and do whatever it takes to prevent a trial from ever starting. that throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks strategy includes an attempt to move the trial. first telling nbc news that trump's attorneys have filed a motion to change the venue of the trial. they're also requesting a stay

on the gag order on trump. the manhattan d.a. declined to comment to nbc news. the desperate donald trump trying anything and everything to stop the hush money case from going to trial in seb days is where we start today. with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. with me legal correspondent lisa ruben, and also former top official from the department of justice and legal analyst andrew weissmann, and former senator and co host of how to win 2024 podcast, claire mccaskill is here. we were both just down from the roof deck where we got to peek in our glasses at the eclipse. this is probably the most unsurprising twist of the trump story. but it is a sign of how much he fears these proceedings. >> it absolutely is. and nicolle, i want to -- i share what you are you're saying but on the other hand i want to

underscore how unusual what trump did today from a legal perspective. we expected this week to be nutty. i told people here to buckle up. he's going to try any last minute legal maneuvers and even ones that are atypical. that is what is happened today. he's filed an article 78 proceeding pursuing a governmental actor directly for things that are unlawful or unconstitutional, the bar to meet that threshold is high and trump knows that becausee tried this exact same move with justice engoron. there he was contesting the gag order in that case and some sanctions that resulted there from. he go the a two-week stay of the gag order in that case, but i want to make sure our viewers understand what he didn't get there was any pause in that trial. which was already ongoing. >> so, even if he knows he'll lose, he seems to never shy away from these unconventional, if

you will, long-shot tactics. is there a chance you could succeed in slowing the start date ow do you think we're full steam ahead in a week? >> what we seen from judge merchan he wants to two full steam ahead but trump is asking a single judge of the appellate decision right now as we speak, there is a hearing going on that nbc news is covering, he's probably asking them, tay the trial. while a full panel of appellate judges could determine these motions. and in fact, i think trump is saying right now in court, and i want to share with you some of adam's reporting, is that the media attention here is so overwhelming and the pretrial publicity stands alone, such that not only is an adjournment necessary, but also new york county is an inappropriate place to try this case. he has said that before. but he has never particularly asked for a change of venue. now he's asking for both. pause the proceedings and when

they resume, take it outside of the county of manhattan. >> andrew weissmann, your sense on, one, whether he'll have any success in the legal front, and, two, how much further strain this places on the system? >> getting to the legal merits, the argument that pretrial publicity is a reason to delay this case is one that, as we say in new york, is pure chutzpah. remember, part of the reason that there is such enormous publicity is because of donald trump himself. you don't get to open your mouth about the case and then say i can't have a trial because i'm speaking so much about the case with a large mega phone. that argument would have some merit if there was any prospect that but for his statements that

there would be a diminution of the public interest in the case in the months ahead. but that is not the case. so the answer to pretrial publicity concerns is jury selection. you have a very careful process for jury selection. the argument for change of venue is a sure dead loser. the leading case on that is one i argued which is united states versus jeff skilling, who is the head of enron. and what the court, the supreme court said there, is when you have a case of such notoriety that you ever where you go in the united states people are going to hear about it, the idea that you need to transfer the case makes no sense. again, remedy is having a careful jury selection process. so neither of the motions has plart to it. i would be very surprised if this put the trial off. it does, to your point, nicolle, though, really signal how much donald trump does not want the

public to see the facts at a trial. and remember, he has already been given all of the evidence, all of the witness statements of what they're going to say, everything they've said in the grand jury, everything that they've told you to the district attorney's office, he has all of that. so he's very aware, there are no surprises as to what the evidence is. and he does not want that evidence to come out. that is like the big picture here, is if he is so innocent, if this is such a witch hunt, why is he doing everything to avoid clearing his name. that is what -- remember, the trial is one where the government has the burden. the government has to reach the highest standard that we have in the law. proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury, and state is the one asking for this trial and for it to go forward and the defendant is doing everything, kicking and screaming to make

sure that the public does not get to see the fakes. >> i mean, andrew, here is what you knowsar who he knows will come out and makes the case against him. this is from abc news. to try to prove their criminal hush money case against trump, prosecutors in new york are expected to rely on several witnesses who are or were part of trump's inner circle including his long time assistant rona graph, and his director of oval office operations madeline westerhouse and hope hicks. the sources said prosecutors in the manhattan d.a. office are expected to call deborah tara who works in the trump organize accounting department and jeffy mcconnie, the former fixer michael cohen and karen mcdougal, a former playboy poddel who received $150,000 payment for rights to her story about an alleged affair with

trump are also expected to testify at trial. i'm beyond thinking andrew that there is anything that impacted him politically. so the freak out is all about what these witnesses threaten legally and criminally. >> yeah, nicolle, when you mention all of those names, what are they all have in common? they're all trump loyalists and trump insiders. these were people who worked for donald trump year in and year out. michael cohen was his fixer. these are back office people. it reminds me so much of the january 6 committee hearings where that case was made, the presentation was people inside of the trump administration talking about what they saw. so, i do think that this is one where it remains to be seen how the evidence comes you by i think we're see an enormous

number of insiders giving damning evident and there is a paper trail that going to be really compelling evidence and i think that is the reason that state is trying everything this can to make sure it has its day in court and, although donald trump doesn't want it to, they're trying to make sure he has his day in court. >> claire, i think it was 2017 or '18, i built a graphic, a whole wall of pikes who called from inside the house. people who had worked for trump, who were signing at alarm. maybe it was after anonymous who we know is miles taylor. but it is always someone inside of the tent telling us what we learn and what we know about trump. and in this case, this is chris christie telling the world exactly how trump feels about going to jail. >> in and all of this bravado and everything else, i've known for for 22 years when i did these cases in new jersey and i would put political figures in

jail, he would say to me, i could never do that. i could never go to jail. and i'm telling you, no matter what he says, no matter how he's bragging and going on and on about him not being afraid, he goes to bed every night thinking about the sound of that jail cell door closing behind him. >> so i share that today, claire, because i don't know what the verb is for truth social, he truth socialed this, now merchan is not allowing me to talk violating the law and constitution all at once. it is so bad what he's trying to get away with. how was he even chosen for this case. blah blah blah. i heard he fought like hell to get it. if this partisan hack wants to put me tht clifrpg for speaking the open and obvious truth in caps, i will gladly become a modern day nelson mandela.

he sounds to be -- i'll leave that between him and his team to sort through. i think i believe chris christie on this one, claire? >> yeah, i do too. but i got to say. it is important to remember, i think trump has two things going on. yes, agree with chris christie he could be scared to go to jail. but also, and you have lisa and andrew, the brilliant legal minds that could talk through every filing and pleading and every tactic, all around the idea, what will legally work. trump is using these proceedings as a campaign tool. >> correct. >> trump is politically campaigning. he is pushing his lawyers to do things that most lawyers would never do because it serves his political campaign narrative. his narrative, he's got relentless messaging. relentless messaging. it is very simple. i'm a victim, i'm a martyr, and

the proceedings are a sham. by the way, have you heard, i'm a victim and a martyr and the proceedings are a sham. could i tell you, i'm a victim and i'm a martyr and the proceedings are a sham. this is his way of campaigning. and he is using the legal system to campaign. and i think we have to acknowledge that his indictments helped him. now, it is complicated why they helped him. i think some of it was timing and i wouldn't go off on merrick garland because it makes my friend andrew nervous. but he did wait an awfully long time when the evidence was as plain as the nose on your face. the other thing is nobody expected ron desantis to suck as bad as he did as a candidate. so you combine those two things and timing in politics is everything. the lateness of the indictments played right into his narrative. that this is political, they're coming after me politically. and i think all of this is we dissect the legal issues here, we cannot forget that all of this is about politics for him.

all of it. >> yeah, i mean, andrew you could handle this. the slowness of garland, the lameness of desantis, they shaped the political arc. i remember in 2015 on the "today" show saying that this race is in donald trump's control, the rest of the republicans are just living in it. that applies to all of the legal proceedings. he has been driving the timing and the reaction and the flow and the response, everyone is reacting to him. does a trial begin a point when equilibrium could be established or will he continue to sort of have his way with these processes? >> well, i think that the thing that i would look at is what happened in the civil cases. whether we're talking about the e. jean carroll case or the attorney general civil case. i think that those are proceedings where claire is

absolutely right that he still used them as best he could in terms of his political purposes. but he was not in control of what happened there, particularly in the e. jean carol case. i would say if there is a repetition of what happened in the second e. jean carroll case where donald trump kicked off his lawyer and said i could do better. well the i could do better went from a $5 million judgment in the first trial to a $85 million judgment in the second trial. if he does that, in this criminal case, you know, i think that there is -- we know what the end result is going to be. when you think that you're the smartest guy in the room and you're not a lawyer and you're not the smartest guy in the room, it is really dangerous. there is a reason that people are skilled criminal defense lawyers and he's not. so, i think it will be lard --

will be hard for him to control that from a legal perspective. that doesn't address claire's point how he's going to use that politically. and if he's convicted, he'll stay say he's a martyr and he's victimized. but the difference, i think, is that people will see the facts come out. now obviously there is a huge segment of the population who are never going to be on earth and looking at actual facts. but we're talking about are there enough people who will actually care about the facts and the law and a verdict, depending on if there is a guilty verdict here. >> yeah, i mean, somewhere i agree on the politics, it is a black box. we have no idea what is in it. we've never been here before. and i think that if trump was sure that being a convicted felon was good for him, he wouldn't be doing all this novel

and exotic stuff. he would be racing ahead, and getting his spray tan or however he prepares himself for trial these days. we'll stay on it. it is really extraordinary. lisa rubin thank you and andrew and claire stick around. when we come back, atory breaking today. a group of retired generals are sounding the alarm on what it would mean for american democracy should donald trump win over his claims of complete presidential immunity. we'll show you exactly what they're warning the court. plus the ex president promised he would tell us his position on abortion in america. today we have it. it is in a video message. we watched it so you don't have to. he managed to say a lot without saying much of anything at all. another punt or dodge from him even as he takes complete credit for the extreme abortion ban sweeping the country. later in the broadcast, even

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thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. so any moment from now, we could hear from special council jack smith on trump's claims of immunity in the federal election case. it is now before the supreme court. the justices there are tackling a question with massive consequences to the future of our democracy. can a former president be held accountable for criminal conduct committed while he is in office. or not? it is a question that a long list of retired generals warn could have h consequences for

our military in a brief to the supreme court, they write this today, quote, the petition theory that the president is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution as accepted has a potential to severely undermind the commander-in-chief's authority to leave the military forces as it would signal that they but not he must obey the rule of law. and unless it is rejected, we risk jeopardizing american's tanding as a guardian of democracy in the world and further speeding the spread of authoritarianism, threatening the national security of the united states and democracies around the world. wow, we're back with andrew and claire. andrew, it is one thing, coming from participants in politics, people who worked in the executive branch, served in the senate or the department of justice at the highest levels. it is a whole other thing, let me read the list of members who signed this. admiral steve abbott, and thad

allen, lewis caldera, and jonl george kasie and general michael hayden, former secretary of air force deborah lee james, admiral samuel jones locklear iii, former secretary of the navy wayne mavis and general robert magnus, general mckinley united states air force, admiral john natham, admiral billowens united states navy and general walt saying that if a president could be found immune and not accountable, that endangers u.s. national security and endangers the military. >> two thoughts. one legal and one maybe just big pike. the legal one is this is the

military, in addition to the pieces that you quoted from, nicolle, saying that i'm going to quote, the notion that defiance of the commander in chief's lel orders is the backstop against his criminal behavior is not what the constitution provided for. they're saying you're going to have a system where you're counting on the military to say no to the president when he gives a legal order such as killing his political adversaries. that is the position that donald trump is advocating and you have the military saying this. and the big picture is, donald trump is telling you now who he is. not who he will be when he's president. he's saying, that is his position as to how this country should be run. where he could actually have the military carry out these illegal orders of killing adversaries

and the military would have to follow and this is the military saying, we do not want to be in that position because he may be immune, but we have a problem following that. we are not going to be carrying out those orders and the supreme court should not be making that -- that position of a constitutional democracy. so, this is an incredible showdown in the supreme court as to who we are. and if i sort of beat this drum a lot, it is not about who donald trump is saying he will be as the next president, it is who he is now, his view of what a democracy is, and it is that there are no checks on him and that the military has to carry out the illegal orders that they would have criminal exposure but he, the president, would not. >> claire, did he it already. did he it to the department of homeland security, to border

officials and i remember the story breaking. i was about to go on the air, it was at 5:56, a story annie carney in the new york times in 2018 and it went something like this. that he promised people pardons if they carried out his illegal orders when it came to how to treat human beings at border. he has done it already as president. and i sometimes wonder if we live in a country where former government officials could break through. i think the jury is out on that, when you look at trump's sort of vibrant support among his base. but we haven't tested that with generals being out in a sustained way. and i wonder, not just legally, but politically, if that has an impact? >> i think it does. and i'm a little disappointed the list was not longer. i'm a little disappointed that general kelly is not on that list. and that jim mattis is not on

that list and mark esper is not on that list. it would have been stronger if some of the high ranking military officials that saw this firsthand, where he would try to get them to do things that were not good for national security and not legal. he tried to get them to act politically. and i think everybody needs to take a breath here and realize, we're pretty proud of our democracy in america. i don't care if your for trump or for anybody else. i think most people are proud of america. what he is asking america to turn into it is those countries that we looked sideways and thought how could that happen. how could the military be protecting thugs and crooks in a corrupt government. how could the military be arresting innocent people and putting them in prison because they're a political opponent. that would never happen in america. that is what donald trump is asking for. he's asking for that ability. and andrew nailed it.

i mean, for the military to be put in the position that either you follow your commander, or you don't and if you don't follow your commander, you're following the law and if you do follow your commander, you're breaking the law. that is a -- should be a breaking point for this country and this case should be decided nine-zip. i dare aleta and clarence thomas to say in written form that a president could break the law and nothing could be done. i would dare them. because that would be the bottom of the fricking barrel. >> i don't foe what claire had for lunch but i want some. andrew weissmann, i found this section that you started to read from. i want to read a fuller section from the generals. the immunity claims threaten national security and the constitution subjects the arms forces of the u.s. to civilian control of the rule of law and the limits on military are bedrock features of our democracy and deeply rooted in

our nation's history. criminal prosecution is an assault on the foundational commitments, the notion of such immunity as a general matter and in the context of the potential negation of election results. threatens to jeopardize our nation's security and international leadership. particularly in times like the present where anti-democratic authoritarian regimes are on the threat and it is intolerable and dangerous. and to build on claire's head of steam, the generals are daring the court to build on the global -- the global sweep of authoritarianism or not. that is where they're putting this decision. >> you know, this is -- this is a clarion call that liz cheney made. her book, the first few chapters, are really about what was going on at the department of defense right after the

election. >> yeah. >> where the insulation of kash patel, that is not something that you usually do during the transition period. where she was obviously really alarmed at what was going to happen, because you know how you get to an auj toran regime is through this. and i share claires concerns about that it should be -- should have a larger list. but this is quite a list. and it is really important for people on the supreme court to hear from the military. because military, remember, during january 6, and events leading up to it and after, they are -- they really do embody the rule of law and understand the civilian role versus the milt role. and i think this is just an

incredibly powerful grief about limitations that they understand about all of the branches of government. and how dangerous what donald trump is saying is to what it means to be a democracy. >> claire, you get the last word. >> well, this is going it be a really important argument. and hopefully the supreme court will signal, as they did in the colorado case, that this is -- really flies in the face of who we are as a nation. do we really want to be a country why everyone raises their hand and takes the oath of office and said that p.s., i get to kill whoever i want. i get to break any law i want. i get to steal any money i want. na, na, na, you can't get me. that is what trump is caming for.

>> claire mccaskill and andrew weissmann, thank you. up next for us, donald trump taking credit for dismantling the constitutional right that was roe v. wade. in a campaign video he released riddles with false and gruesome claims but not telling anyone just what would happen if he were to return to the white house as president. our next guest said make no mistake, he will work to ban all abortion nationwide should he be re-elected. more on that next. re-elected more on that next.

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after a pretty good amount of blow beating about releasing a plan about abortion that would appeal to everyone, the disgraced ex-president put out a video revealing how woe deal with abortion if he were elected to a second term as president. in the video trump said that it is his view that states decide -- what states decide should be the law of the land. but it is more important to listen to what he does not say or clarify. he does not address what he would do if -- as president if the national abortion ban was sent to his desk for a signature or address the fetal personhood and endangered ivf access in alabama and as well as birth control. the views on state bill that if passed would charge a woman with murder for having abortion -- or

receiving an abortion health care and he does not address the fact that key advisers to his own campaign come from christian nationalist group that have released detail plans for how he could ban abortion nationwide without any input from congress or any state legislature. and in the statement it said that states like idaho, that are fighting to the supreme court, to deny abortions to women in medical crises, that they should be allowed to continue to deny stabilizing health care. a raped 10-year-old girl should continued to have to be forced to leave her stace to receive abortion health care. if able to leave at all. and it said that states could continue to deny abortions to women like kate cox and amanda zerski who didn't survive and have risked permanent damage to their health and fertility if denied case and the biden campaign released an -- an ad

features amanda. showing what happened to her. >> this is one of our little boxes. this is just filled with some of the things i started gathering and a little baby book.gnant. this is the outfit that she was going to maybe wear home from the hospital. >> and the little footprints. >> it's okay. >> joining our conversation, the president of the reproductive

reason for all, mini peru, and special koend for "vanity fair," mary. i've talked to amanda a half a dozen times and her story and willingness to share what is the saddest chapter of her life so far is flattening me every time. and i get to the point that there is no response. because this isn't about the old contours, the old fight is over. and it has been taken over by people like amanda and their going to decide where this conversation heads and what people decide. and it feels like trump, we sometimes build them up as being this political genius when he's an accidental autocrat. i think that most people watching that will have one reaction and that is to understand that this is a baby, amanda and her husband, willow was her daughter and she wanted her and she almost died because of donald trump's appointments to the supreme court and the

inability to receive health care. >> that is exactly right. i think just watching the trump statement, and juxtaposing it with amanda an the biden ad, which was incredibly powerful, yet again, and kudos to the team for zeroing in, the message is that donald trump did this. donald trump did this. we could not repeat it enough. we could not replay his own words enough. we could not outline the dystopian melt down of this country for women and families without pitting it to donald trump. it is all because of donald trump. but if you go back to his video today, the thing that i thought was -- were the most striking was he really aggressively brags again, states again that he's proud of overturning roe, and pushed that and that is the real message from the video today. and everything else almost

doesn't matter. but the secondary thing was how dangerous the disinformation and misinformation he's pushing about democrats and their position on pregnancy and abortion later in pregnancy, which if you look at amanda's ad, that is it, he's basically pushing a lie about where democrats stand on a pregnancy, abortion later in term, abortion later in pregnancy, which would put someone like amanda, her entire life in jeopardy. it is audacious. it is dangerous. we need to make sure that american people and i ask listeners at home to understand, people who -- like amanda, they don't set out to be pregnant with an intent to have an abortion. these are pregnancies that are very much wanted. when we take these decisions

away from pregnant people and their physicians and their families and put it in the hands of reckless politicians like donald trump, women die. and that is the top message from today. and from the ad and the video. women die. we cannot let this continue to happen. >> and we should say that amanda's fertility is in question. she's working through it right now. we made the editorial decision not to show trump's video but i described it as gruesome. what is gruesome is what mini is talking about. he lies and saying that democrats are for abortion after nine months which isn't a thing, ever, anywhere. >> the top line of this video is donald trump is scared. he knows republicans are losing on choice. >> he said it. he said it after -- >> and that is why he made this video, because he's worried. and this is a guy who said to chris matthews during a town hall that there should be some

kind of punishment for women who would abortions. so it is important to realize, that it doesn't even matter what he believes. he installed three justices that said they were going to overturn roe. you can't believe what he said. just believe what he's done. but more importantly the heritage foundation which is the quote/unquote think tank, has been working on regulating ivf and banning aborpgs. so they have a plan. >> and birth control. >> and they have a plan. and if you look at the supreme court right now, they have two abortion cases. one of which is probably during the arguments we heard alito and thomas talk about the com stock act from the 1870s and how they were going to use that and how common it was. it is not common at all. but they were going to use it to ban abortion bills so of course they're looking at a federal ban. but it is worth realizing that donald trump is doing this

because he knows he's losing on it. >> i have to sneak in a break but i want to put this out there. 81%, now, of americans believe abortion should be left up to a woman and her doctor and the government should have no role. that number, every month that we track this since the supreme court took away our right in this country for 50 years, supreme court for legal and safe abortion has gone up. no one is going anywhere. we'll all be right back. please stay with us.

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do you leave in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yes. and i did something nobody thought was possible. i got rid of roe v. wade. and by doing that, by doing that it puts pro-lifers in a strong negotiating position. >> if a federal ban landed on your desk if you were reauto elected would you sign it at 15 -- >> are you talking about a complete ban. >> ban at 15 weeks. >> well people are starting to think of 15 weeks. that seems to be a number that peopleweeks, that seems to be a number that people are talking about right now. >> you know, mini, this is a moment for us, too, right? to get this right. the biden campaign i was just reading is out with a press release warning that the media's getting it wrong. it is incumbent on everyone who covers this story to understand trump's position. he believes in punishment for

women. we just played it. believe your ears. not me. he believes in punishment for women. he is proud of overturning roe vs. wade. he picked judges to do just that. that was the mandate. and despite whatever he said in his video today, he has not said that he wouldn't sign a ban. so we are not anywhere different post-video than we were pre. >> yeah, i mean, i have to agree with the biden campaign here. a lot of the headlines after the video this morning were, you know, about trump not endorsing a national ban and saying it's left up to the states. but as you pointed out in your opening, leaving things up to the states means total bans on abortion in critical parts of this country and devastating stories and outcomes for so many people in this country. so look, the important thing is we have to keep reminding voters, and the press is key to this, what trump said and what

he's already done. in his horrific video, i know i keep talking about it, and i respect your editorial position not to play it, but it's like -- >> we have to cover it. i just couldn't watch it. >> in the end he gives like a shout out to all the supreme court justices who just gutted our constitution. it's incredible. it's like every right-wing trope, every -- i wouldn't even call it -- i had a reporter ask me, is it a dog whistle? i was like no, it's like a flashing neon sign to the extremist right. this is what i'll do. i'm using your language but i'm trying to get around it through some verbal gymnastics to avoid a really big critical loss as molly said. he knows where the electorate is but he also knows these are his folks. this is the -- this is his core. this is the consequence of his actions and on some level obviously donald trump is proud of overturning roe. so the press, we need to just constantly repeat the three clips you played. they're the most critical clips. it's what we're pushing to

voters as well. we cannot let folks forget he promised to do it before, he did it, he will do it again, and it will be worse. it will be worse because he'll do it without congress. >> molly. >> yeah, there are plans in place. and by the way, it's even scarier than we think. right? you talked about birth control. you see the right already, they want iuds. right? because they consider iuds cause abortion. that's not true. they think that the morning after pill. and birth control. so this is really -- and by the way, also no-fault divorce. it really is a broad war on women. and they have not stopped and they are not going to temper themselves. and again, don't believe what donald trump says. believe what donald trump does. >> do you think it gets enough attention? because you're right about all of that. >> i don't. i actually don't think it gets enough attention. and i also think the really dangerous thing that trump does, that he has done really successfully previously, is that he'll say a lie like we're going

to kick this back to the states, and then he'll get that lie repeated as a headline, and so a reader, a casual news reader will look at a headline and say oh, he's going to kick it back to the states. without realizing that the reason that roe is no longer protected is because of donald trump. >> we'll do a better job fact-checking ourselves. consider yourselves on notice to help us with that effort. mini and molly, thank you very much for spending time with us today on this. when we come back, we'll look at the solar eclipse that moved across much of north america today, blanketing millions in rare total or near darkness. giving those watching from schools and offices like ours right here total eclipse fever. we'll show you that next. otal er we'll show you that next but,t leave covered in hair. with bounce pet, you can cuddle and brush that hair off. bounce, it's the sheet. (♪♪) is this normal? yeah. i mean, he does look happy.

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an event that made millions of us get our little glasses and stop and stare today, even senate pages, hopefully not directly, but gathered and looked toward a natural wonder. a total eclipse that passed over mexico, 15 u.s. states and a small part of eastern canada. it crossed over mexico early this afternoon, turning 2:00 p.m. into evening skies on the beaches. and then into texas. this is dallas where nbc's priscilla thompson watched the moment alongside the people who traveled there, gathered there. her reaction to the moment the moon completely covered the sun with so many of us today it was a moment people traveled for and to and gathered around, even held weddings around. at racetracks in indianapolis and baseball stadiums in cleveland. it was in its final stop in the u.s. when we came on the air

with all of you in maine. we hope you enjoyed it while it lasted. we sure did around here. up next for us, is corporate america in denial about donald trump? we say yes. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. starts after quick break. don't go anywhere. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred.

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another brushback against the state of georgia over its controversial new voting law. major league baseball announcing it is pulling its all-star game and draft out of the atlanta braves stadium in protest. the atlanta economy now losing out on millions of dollars as a result of this. and according to cobb county's chief financial officer, previous all-star host cities experienced an economic boost between 37 million and $190 million. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it's all too rare, but we saw it in georgia in 2021, that taking away the right to vote,

democratic rights and freedoms, was bad for business there. republicans in that state made it harder for their citizens to vote. businesses took note and said no, thank you. but now as we're facing the prospect of yet another trump presidency, a second term where the ex-president has already said out loud that he plans to rule as a dictator on day one, his words, corporate america is so far on the sidelines, staying largely silent. or worse, saying that despite what they see from this wannabe autocrat, they're going to vote for him again because of their bottom lines. now, during trump's first term businesses were pretty happy with his corporate tax cuts and deregulation. but this time trump is making clear that if he returns it will not be a policy or ideological repeat. a piece in the "new york times" magazine poses this question to corporate america. is corporate america in denial about trump? from that new piece of reporting, quote, trump and those around him are signaling that a second trump administration would be very different. they promise a more populist economic agenda and a more populist governing style to

match, with steep tariffs on imported goods and punitive measures against companies that do business with china. his team has been clear about the fact that trump is ready to move ahead without the blessing of the business community. quote, you'll see loyalists, says brian ballard, a fund-raiser and former lobbyist for trump. wall street supermen who thought they were the smartest guys in the room, that sort of stuff, he will not tolerate. which is why a new shareholder letter out from jpmorganchase ceo jamie dimon, who's had plenty of nice things to say about donald trump over the years, is so striking. in this new letter he devotes a large section to stressing the importance of upholding american civil freedoms and maintaining this country's democratic strength on the world stage. his words. he goes on to write this. quote, in perilous periods of history when our allies and other democracies were under serious assault great american leaders have inspired the american people through words and actions to stand up, to help and helped them. staying on the sidelines during

battles of autocracy and democracy, between dictatorship and freedom, is simply not an option for america today. now, again, dimon has had a lot of nice things to say about donald trump. but this letter at this moment with the general election contest clearly a battle between american autocracy and an american president who believes in our democracy stands out both for its timing and his past support for trump. and while he speaks clearly today, what about other business leaders? his peers. where are they? are they in denial as the "times" suggests? more on that "times" reporting. quote, rachel kleinfeld, a senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace, detailed the many potential dangers ahead in a report last year. how does business fair under populism? examining the recent economic histories of hungary, brazil and india. she found that populist governments significantly increase volatility and risk by using their regulatory power to

tilt markets or outright take control of businesses. she told "the new york times" this, quote, the business community here does not understand what is about to hit them. maybe jamie dimon peeked at that. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. jonathan muller staff writer for "new york times," byline on that extraordinary new piece of reporting i just read from. also joining us former u.s. deputy national security adviser under president barack obama ben rhodes is here. and adviser for united to protect democracy, the aforementioned and quoted dr. rachel kleinfeld is here. let me start with you, jonathan. it strikes me that there has to be someone in some of the smartest companies in the world run by some of the smartest people in the world working in a padded room who has to leave his phone outside the way you do when you go into a sit room, looking at what happened to the economies of hungary and russia when they took their tilts

toward full-on autocracy simply because that's what trump is saying he's going to do. but over and over again i hear no, no, no, no such thing's happening. what did you report out? >> yeah. i mean, i think you're right, it's hard to imagine that that isn't taking place. but you know, at the moment it doesn't really seem to be. and i think that there's just a -- you know, this is a community, this is kind of a group of executives who are accustomed to business being done a certain way, and it has been done that way really for decades now in this country. and you know, they've always had influence in washington or at least, you know, going back many decades. they've going back many decades had policies that were favorable toward them and toward business. and i think they just on some level can't quite imagine that what has happened around the world or what is happening around the world and what has happened around the world across history, i mean, history has clear lessons about populism as

kind of an inevitable force and what it does to countries and to economies, i think on some level they can't quite imagine that it could happen here. and i think particularly so given that as you say donald trump's presidency, you know, worked out okay for them. it was certainly bumpy but they got what they wanted businesswise. they got their tax cuts, they got deregulation. so i think on some level they haven't quite grappled with the reality of, you know, what would likely happen in a second trump administration. >> the piece is so smart because it takes these metrics that they've normally looked at, taxes and regulation, and you know, if those are here it goes this way, right? that the instability, the slide toward autocracy, the high-profile trial of a dissident or journalist destabilizes the democracy and sends a chilling signal around the world that our country isn't stable and therefore our economy isn't stable. it's so direct and it's so

obvious. what is your sense of what walls off corporate america from, say, the kinds of things you've got federal judges speaking out, they never do that, about the threats of violence toward judges. you've got journalists using their platforms to warn about democracy, as we do here every day. what walls them off from what's happening in our politics? >> well, i think there are a number of things. i think one is certainly fear of getting on the wrong side of the man who might be the next president. and this is certainly a politician who has demonstrated his vindictiveness and is proud of it, calling himself, you know, the retribution for his supporters. and i also think executives are gun-shy. you saw what happened with bud light. you've seen -- they've seen what has happened with companies that have waded a little bit into the

political arena and the backlash in such a polarized country, the backlash that they've experienced from the right, i think they're anxious. so you know, even with that -- you know that in many ways kind of explicit shareholder letter from jamie dimon, i mean, you know, there are certain things he also doesn't say. and i think that is going to continue to be the case with him and with others for those reasons, because they fear a backlash. >> jonathan, did any of them privately talk about -- i mean, because what you describe is a hedge, right? they're hedging in case he does win. but did any of them describe any planning, any sort of safeguarding of employees or any sort of moving around of money or authorities? >> no. i mean, i think that -- i think that the feeling is if the -- i

mean, and i should say that, you know, so that it's clear, none of these guys -- i shouldn't say none of them, but the vast majority of them are not enthusiastic about the prospect of a second trump presidency. but that's very different from doing anything to prevent it. and i think what they would say is when the democratic institutions of america are at risk, if they are at risk they will step up. which they did after the election. which they did after january 6th. which they did after charlottesville. but you know, they seem to draw a bright line between that kind of reactive behavior and what would now be a kind of more proactive behavior, which would be to try to prevent a second trump presidency. >> you know, rachel, it's nonsensical to me because trump's political support would

collapse. his argument to his base is twofold. it's around grievance and it's around the myth that somehow he would juice the economy in a superior way than trump has -- or i'm sorry, than president joe biden has. but the biden economic record is something you'd have to have blinders on to ignore. 303,000 jobs in march. and all -- everything moving in a direction a lot of people thought impossible and far-fetched two, three years ago. what is your sense of what keeps business leaders in their silo? >> so i think jonathan's right, that business thinks that things will continue as they have usually continued. and i think they're correct that what you won't see is an overnight change in the business landscape. what you'll see is a slow and steady alteration. hungary, where orban is one of the sort of prime leaders that

trump and his folks look to for how they did it, he ran on a more populist platform and then nationalized parts of the banking and business sector. but he didn't do it right away. it wasn't like venezuela. first he ordered them to lower their prices. then he imposed price caps. then they couldn't make a living anymore. they couldn't make enough money. so he said, well, if you want to sell, you can sell to my friend. and slowly, slowly the various business sectors became less and less independent. but by the time they realized what was going on it was really too late. and i think that's what u.s. business has to kind of get around their minds, is that this is a slow, steady boiling but we're already seeing it. because the other part of jonathan said is also really true. businesses are also not speaking out because they're scared to speak out. when they spoke out after the georgia voting legislation, business got hit with mitch mcconnell saying that if they thuld back their support they were going to be called up for

congressional hearings. delta had one part of the georgia state legislature try to cut their tax rebates and so on. so business sees that and they think, gosh, i want our system to stay stable but i'm going to wait till the last possible minute. but i think what they fail to realize is by the time they wait till the last possible minute it actually might be too late. that's what we see overseas with populists, is that by the time business cottons on to how much things can change, how much retribution can be personalized against them, their ability to speak has been greatly reduced and they really lack a lot more power than they have now. >> rachel, it's so disappointing, having covered shaye moss and ruby freeman and liz cheney and adam kinzinger, people who lost their -- in the case of shaye moss and ruby freeman lost their freedom, lost their right to be anonymous public servants. liz cheney, adam kinzinger lost their seats in congress. what is -- are there any examples of best practices

being -- and actually, let me put up something happening today. these are thousands of people protesting in hungary against orban. i mean, a lot of people. not just the business community. a lot of people are not happy with that slow boil and that slow roll toward autocracy. are there any sort of bright spots on the landscape where people use their platform and use their roles in communities where business leaders did something more brave than what we're seeing out of american leaders of business today? >> absolutely. and actually, it's the opposite of the pictures you're showing on hungary. business is not necessarily the most outspoken part of any landscape. they tend to be naturally small c conservative. and so asking them to publicly speak out and take public stands on social issues scares them. they don't want to lose part of their employee base. they also don't want to lose part of their customer base. but they don't have to is the good news. where business has been the most effective, in brazil, in

guatemala, in poland, these countries that kind of snatched their countries back from a populist or an authoritarian movement, what they did was often more private. sometimes they spoke publicly. sometimes you would get major business associations putting out public statements saying we stand for the rule of law, we stand for non-violence, you know, very anodyne things, not partisan, in taking a stand in their cases but what they also did was simply use the money they spent on candidates quietly to support candidates that support the rule of law. they talked quietly amongst themselves to build a sense amongst the business community of what was normal and what was not normal. they sort of changed the internal discussions so that businesses in brazil and guatemala and poland started funding the more pro-democracy side of activity. sometimes they funded the pro-democracy infrastructure, the groups that were counting votes properly and so on.

and they also realized that if they lived out of fear and stayed so quiet and didn't act that the retribution would eventually come for them. and i think in america all this quiet activity is very much something that the business community can do and they can certainly talk amongst themselves and build a better understanding of things like in 2022 federal, state and local spending was 37% of gdp. so if retribution gets wielded against business, that's a lot of money. 30% of jobs require government licenses. if you start having retribution, that's a lot of jobs that can be affected. they need to start taking in this kind of understanding and talking amongst themselves about what that would mean and what they can do to support a free market capitalist system. >> you know, ben, if a business leader today wanted to simply put out a statement that said, as rachel just said, i believe in the rule of law and non-violence they would be attacked for being partisan. that is a partisan statement, to say -- to come on the air as we

do every day and say i believe in the rule of law and that no judge and no judge's child should ever be threatened is a partisan position. that's how far down the road we are today, toward something that does not look like what any of us are used to american democracy or american politics looking like, sounding like or smelling like. what is your sense of where things stand? >> well, to your point, nicolle, that shows you how much there's already been a process of boiling the frog here, of normalizing a circumstance where it feels partisan just to assert commitment and support for democracy itself. but i think that a lot of these business leaders have taken the wrong lesson from the first trump term and frankly you'd like them to be acting out of civic virtue but they also, as rachel indicated, need to understand that they would be acting out of self-interest to stand up for democracy because the reality is a lot of these business leaders, the lessons that they took from the first trump term is, well, markets

were really resilient. trump was a little crazy but he juiced the economy with his tax cut. we weathered his trade war, we weathered his tweets, and we think we can do that again. and the fundamental problem, the thing that needs to sink in, and this is why this article was so helpful, is in the first trump term the authoritarianism was more of a bug than a feature, particularly in the early years. you know, when you had gary cohn, the former ceo of goldman sachs at the white house as the chief economic adviser and you had republican operatives and former generals in the administration. and you had trump mainly containing his authoritarianism to picking fights. by the end of the first trump term, that had become the feature of the administration. that's going to be what trump is from day one. and to take the hungary example, look, by the time victor orban had transformed that economy the richest man in hungary was a close friend of orban's, a billionaire. that guy had been a pipe fitter when orban was on the rise to power. he started picking winners. he started picking losers. and a second trump term is going to mean trump wanting control of the economy.

it's going to mean an escalation in protectionism in the trade war. it is going to immediately impact the bottom lines of these companies. it's going to mean i think a global economy that begins to orient away from the leadership of the american economy and american business community. supply chains reorienting around the unpredictability of trump. it's going to mean a rising risk of conflict with impechous nationalists in the white house along with other impetuous nationalists we see in charge in other parts of the world. instability is going to be something much harder to manage and much harder for markets to be resilient in ways that pad the bottom line of these companies. so i would like people to take stands because they believe in democracy. but the reality also is that they're heading into a buzz saw here of someone who wants to come in for retribution, doesn't want to come in to show wall street people that, you know, he can have the big office and be in the biggest chair of power. he's someone who's coming in for revenge. he's someone coming in for control. he's going to be bringing in loyalists, not former goldman

sachs ceos, not former generals, not republican operatives. it's going to be the ideologues from day one. and that i think should suggest that it's in the self-interest of the american corporate sector to do what we've seen in other countries where people have quietly done what they could to strengthen the infrastructure of democracy and yes, when necessary to raise their voices when they see things taking place that are contrary to our values because frankly it is american democracy that has allowed for these companies to succeed. it is american democracy that has created all of these profits that frankly are fueling some of the populism. we have to understand that as well. and so it's going to come for them too. and that's the lesson of history. >> right. somebody pointed this out to me and i say this on the show, not all the oligarchs did very well in russia. a lot of them ended up dead when the war started. jonathan, it's an incredible piece of reporting. i recommend everyone go read it. we'll tweet it out from our account. rachel is quoted in the piece. ben sticks around with us a

little longer. when we come back top house republicans the chairmen of powerful committees are now warning all of us that russian propaganda has infiltrated their own party and that putin's talking points are now regularly parroted by their own colleagues on the republican side on the house floor. we'll get reaction to that stunning development next. plus the alarming inside story about how the disgraced ex-president and his allies plan to end democracy as we know it. the author of the brand new book "finish what we started" will be our guest. and later in the broadcast republicans want to rename an airport for donald trump? well, house democrat jerry connolly has a different idea, a better one, a far more fitting way to honor him. he'll tell us about it later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. >> russian imperialism, which of course has been a characteristic of russian foreign policy for centuries. >> i'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to russia or mr. putin and i'm certainly not going to say to him i'll give you more flexibility after the election. >> first of all, we've got to realize what vladimir putin is. he's an old kgb colonel that wants to restore the russian empire. >> according to our intelligence services, the russian government has made a project of turning americans against each other. >> ancient history. relics of a bygone era. what republicans used to say and sound like when they talked about russia. now, though, donald trump's allies in congress seem downright eager to do vladimir putin's bidding, to say what putin would want them to say. and it turns out as of today even some republican lawmakers

agree with that. after house foreign affairs chairman michael mccaul told puck news that russian propaganda had, quote, infected a good chunk of his party's base, yesterday house intelligence chair michael turner agreed with that. watch. >> we see directly coming from russia attempts to mask communications that are anti-ukraine and pro-russia messages, some of which we even hear being uttered on the house floor. i mean, there are members of congress today who still incorrectly say this conflict between russia and ukraine is over nato which of course it is not. to the xebt this propaganda takes hold it makes it more difficult for us to really see this as an authoritarian versus democracy battle which it is. >> wow. turner's concerns trace right back to the maga wing of his own party one taking orders from the boss. now the "washington post" reports this, quote, trump has privately said he could end russia's war in ukraine by pressuring ukraine to give up some territory. that's according to people familiar with the plan. joining our conversation, isaac

arnz dorf, national political reporter for the "washington post." he's bylined on that new reporting about trump's quote unquote plan to end the war in ukraine. he's also author of a new book tomorrow called "finish what we started: the maga movement's ground war to end democracy." we'll get to that in a second. take me inside this reporting. i mean, this has been i think obvious to people not serving under -- or maybe it was obvious to them. take me to how we got to this breakthrough. >> well, basically, trump sees two sides. russia wants all of ukraine. ukraine wants all of ukraine. so trump sees an opportunity to make a deal there. and as when he was president the first time, he sees an opportunity, he thinks based on the force of his charisma and his negotiating skills if he gets both sides in a room he can make a deal, they can have a splashy announcement and the details are not exactly what he's focussed on. ? and his plan we should be clear is to do something zelenskyy is

not for, to give up parts of ukraine. >> right. zelenskyy has said under no circumstances will he agree to territorial concessions. trump is privately -- well, publicly what he says is you know, i could solve this in 24 hours even before i take office but i'm not going to tell you how, it's a secret. and what we were able to figure out through people that he's shared this with privately is that the idea is basically he thinks that some territory, specifically crimea and the donbas border region, he could see ukraine giving that to russia and the war would end. >> and what about this extraordinary turn of two house republicans calling out their own caucus, their own party for parroting putin's propaganda? >> i think we should be careful. reasonable americans can disagree with u.s. interests in the world and prioritizing commitments to ukraine and european allies versus other foreign policy priorities. but when you see misinformation coming through that originated with russian propaganda and

americans repeating that, that's something else. >> and that's where they are, republicans are saying. >> correct. >> that's extraordinary. i mean, ben rhodes, we've watched it sort of in slow motion. i didn't see tucker carlson's interviews with trump because i watched the daily show's treatment of tucker carlson's trip and coverage of russia. but to watch vaughn hillyard's reporting, my colleague here at nbc news, what tucker carlson reported from russia is now coming out of the mouths of trump supporters at rallies. it's -- the circuit is complete. and it is sort of stunning to hear two sitting members of congress say that members of his own caucus are parroting russian propaganda. >> yeah. it's because they are. i mean, they're literally retweeting it. they've said it on the floor of the house. i think more fundamentally, though, it has enormous consequences. i mean, just take what came out in that reporting. first of all, donald trump cannot negotiate over the heads of the ukrainians the removal of

their territory. and taking eastern ukraine and crimea and making it part of sovereign russian territory. that's something that the ukrainians would object to. but more fundamentally let's think about who's there. we know what has happened in areas that have been occupied by russia. we know that children have been separated from their families and taken into russia. we know that war crimes have taken place. we know that massacres have taken place. so you want to normalize that and abandon those people that the united states under joe biden has made a commitment to defend along with all our democratic allies? you want to send a message to china that we're now in a new era where it's okay to take territory through conquest, when we have huge tensions over taiwan and the u.s. military assesses that 2027 is the date at which the chinese military may be prepared for an invasion of taiwan in the next president's term? what about the korean peninsula, nicolle? where donald trump's close friend kim jong un who he says

literally he wrote love letters with, who he took those love letters with him to mar-a-lago because he was so committed to preserving them, what is kim jong un going to take as a message when he perhaps might want to make a move on south korea? so this has enormous consequences. it's just not even like a bunch of chatter from tucker carlson. this is about fundamentally reorienting the united states of america away from defending the principle that sovereign territory cannot be claimed through military force. and living in a world in which the united states of america is no longer performing that function immediately becomes a much more unpredictable and dangerous place. >> you know, ben, i also don't know that it's necessarily a separate conversation from the one we just had. jamie dimon putting out a statement to shareholders about autocracy and democracy. two house republicans seeming to break with the mindless mutterings that parrot russian propaganda, calling out their own caucus, saying they're parroting putin's talking points. i guess my question for you is is it too late?

>> i mean, i think in the republican party it's way past too late. i mean, these guys speaking out, that's great. but they're not really in charge. sure, they're nominally chairing these committees. but their words mean nothing. we know that the people in that caucus are ultimately going to take their direction from donald trump. hopefully we can squeeze through another package of assistance for ukraine somehow. but we all know what's on the ballot in november. what's on the ballot is whether the united states continues to play that role. what's on the ballot is whether ukraine continues to have any kind of lifeline. it is too late to think that some republican members of congress can stand in the way of that. it's ultimately going to be up to the american people about whether they care enough about that to take a stand. and i think it does take as many people as possible to be raising the alarm bells. and again, making the point -- the thing that tucker carlson does that's so dangerous, nicolle, and i unfortunately suffered through that whole interview and i suffered through his weird videos he took kind of

propaganda -- >> the shopping carts. you'll have to explain to me. >> the moscow metro that the soviets built as propaganda in the cold war and he's talking about how great the moscow subway is. it can appear like a television show. it can appear that this is just an extension of our tribal identity politics. i want to own somebody on a social media platform or the democrats seem to like the ukrainians, so we don't like them because that must mean they're on the other team. no, this is real world stuff that impacts people's lives, that's going to impact the security of this nation, that's going to impact the economy of this nation. because if there's an unraveling, what remains of the national order, it's ultimately going to create all kinds of shocks. right? so i think what's necessary is to communicate to people that the stakes about this are not the normal back and forth on television, on social media. this is deep, dangerous, real world stuff. and there's a reason the russians have spent years investing in the spread of this kind of misinformation, disinformation, in this kind of connectivity to the american right wing, because they're going to want a return on that

investment. >> ben rhodes, ominous but really important. thank you so much for joining us. isaac sticks around. we're going to talk about his book, his alarming new book about the maga movement's efforts to end american democracy. what keeps him up at night. we'll ask him after a quick break. stay with us. break. stay with us bladder leaks were holding me back from doing the things i loved. until, i found a bladder specialist that offered me bulkamid - a life-changing and fda approved non-drug solution for my condition called stress incontinence it really works, and the relief can last for years. take the next step at findrealrelief.com to arrange an appointment with an expert physician to determine if bulkamid is right for you. results and experiences may vary. move beyond the leaks.

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we are back with "washington post" reporter isaac arnsdorff. his new book "finish what we started" comes out tomorrow and warns not just what a second

maga term would bring but also the movement's strategy to end american democracy and the republican parties we know it. he writes how key maga figures like steve bannon are helping and using donald trump to turn january 6 into a success story of authoritarianism here in the u.s. he writes this, quote, bannon believed the maga movement if it could break out of being suppressed and marginalized by the establishment, represented a dominant coalition that could rule for 100 years. republicans were the ones standing in the way of bannon's plans. quote, the first guys we've got to take down is the republican party, he said. we haven't done that yet. we're getting there. trump's our instrument. we're getting there. we're back with the author, isaac arnsdorf. congrats. pub day is tomorrow. >> thank you. >> we were joking about being eclipsed by the eclipse. you won't be. you're in the clear now. it's over. tell me about -- their successes are clear. there is no republican party. it's trumpism. and joe biden's running against

trumpism. joe biden's running against a maga movement that isn't maybe as big as it was in '16 but it is certainly more virulent. and tell me if that is a means to an end or the end. >> what it has is it has an institutional home now, which is the republican party itself. and this is really something that changed in the aftermath of january 6th. because the story that developed in the movement and bannon had a huge role in this, was that the reason trump failed, the reason that he couldn't stay in office on january 6th, was because of a few uncooperative republicans. and there's actually a lot of truth in that. if you think about the republicans who stood up to him and prevented him from overturning the election, it was republicans. and so the idea was that the movement needed to take over the party. and they needed to do it from the ground up, from the precincts to the counties, to the districts to the states. and then they could purge the party of anyone who wouldn't be there next time when everything was on the line. and that's what we have now, is the movement being channeled

into this structure, into this apparatus. the party organization itself that has made it so much more effective actually in that time when trump has been out of power. >> why is the movement predicated on cheating? >> what do you mean by cheating? >> i mean the republicans didn't stand in the way of anything. they simply weren't willing to say that up is down and down is up. >> right. but in the story, in the creation myth -- >> but that's not real. i guess i want to have -- i understand what you're covering. i want to have a conversation here on earth one. i mean, it's predicated on knowledge of defeat. why did they bake in that they can't win? >> yeah. i understand that. sorry. there's long been an article of faith on the right, it goes back to barry goldwater or even earlier, that america is a conservative country, it is a right of center country, it has to be. that's a starting premise. and if you start with that premise, then it doesn't matter what the election results say,

republicans, the right has to have some grip on power. and the extreme extension of that is what trump says, the election was stolen, it's not really about the machines or the ballots. it's about that feeling of who the country belongs to. and trump says this very explicitly, this country doesn't belong to them, this country belongs to you. that's what he says at almost every rally. and that's what it's really about. and that's why it's not really falsifiable. it's about a sense of belonging and power and who america is for. >> but it's the first time in any party's history that it hasn't sought to persuade enough people to vote for them so they win fair and square. it's a campaign before anyone has voted predicated on cheating. do they acknowledge that? >> well, do they acknowledge that? no. because of the insistence -- >> they'd be acknowledging it's all a lie. >> i mean, part of the tension in reporting the book is the

people who really do believe it because of their own personal experiences or -- >> who believes it? bannon doesn't believe it. bannon knows trump lost. >> bannon is in this weird space of if it's a mask i've never seen it slip. i've seen him be more forceful -- >> bannon thinks biden got fewer votes than trump? >> i've seen him be more forceful about it at some times than others. but there's that tension between people who are doing it opportunistically, who are manipulating it, versus the people who really do believe it. and you have to take both seriously. they're both different elements of the movement. >> what is it like to cover not just two parties that see the world differently but one that doesn't attach itself to provable facts? >> well, we as reporters always have to be clear and honest about what is observably empirically true and what isn't. that's a huge part of our job. but it's also part of our job to be respectful of where people

coming from and to be fair. and this was also a huge part of the project of this book was spending a lot of time with people who really did believe these things that weren't true. and understanding -- >> where do you draw that line between respecting people that believe things that aren't true and wanting to tell them but 60 courts found that there was no fraud? how do you do that personally? >> i think when i started out i was more afraid of getting into that argument with people and i would think i'm really just here to listen and try to understand. and what i learned over time was actually to be less afraid of having that out because like they know. like they've heard it before. i'm not here like breaking it to them that like people think they're conspiracy theorists or on msnbc people say mean things about them. they've heard it. they're aware. >> fox sometimes too, right? >> exactly. actually, there was something that was actually kind of freeing about that. like no, we can actually level

with each other. >> it's fascinating. congratulations on the book. it's really, really important. and thank you for being here. good luck tomorrow on pub day. >> thank you. >> the book is called "finish what we started: the maga movement's ground war to end democracy." pick it up read it. it will help you understand a lot of things still in front of us as a country. there's some news breaking in the last few minutes that proves contrary to the saying that the wheels of justice can actually move fast, a judge in new york has just denied trump's request to move the hush money trial set to start next week. his attorneys had argued on behalf of that request in court two hours ago. trump's request for a stay of the gag order imposed by judge juan merchan is still pending. when we come back, the most fitting way to honor the twice-impeached four times indicted disgraced ex-president. congressman jerry connolly of virginia has an idea and he'll join us with his proposal after a very short break. sal after a very short break

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feeling sluggish or weighed down? could be a sign that your digestive system isn't at its best. but a little metamucil everyday can help. metamucil's psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down... so you can lighten every day the metamucil way. as we've covered this hour, most of today's republican members of congress play to an audience of one. and when that one is donald trump, it can be hard to get his attention. and approval. so when a republican congressman introduced a bill to rename washington's dulles airport after trump, it sparked an idea from the other side of the aisle to honor the four times indicted ex-president who currently faces 88 felony charges. the democrats' bill would rename the miami federal correctional institution in florida the, quote, donald j. trump federal correctional institution. congressman gerry connolly of virginia added this, quote, when our republican colleagues introduced their bill to rename

dulles airport after donald trump i said the more fitting option would be to rename a federal prison. i hope our republican friends will join us in bestowing upon donald j. trump the only honor he deserves. if it's any consolation for trump, the miami prison would be one of the few to bear his name that he would not have to worry about the state of new york seizing. joining us now democratic congressman gerry connolly of virginia. so it's cheeky, but is it real? do you have the support of your caucus? >> i'm happy to get everybody to sign on and i'm hoping it will be bipartisan. lord almighty, nicolle, this is an honor donald trump has long been seeking, whether he knows it or not. and you know, we'll etch it in gold, his favorite color. we'll even have, you know, a red carpet to welcome him when he arrives for what i hope would be

a warm stay. and well earned. you know, with 88 criminal indictments, you know, we're not talking about just anybody. we're talking about somebody who has really i think worked hard at this kind of honor. and i'm happy to bestow it. >> congressman, i've long thought that one of the challenges people have with trump is the asymmetry. he's talking about trying mark milley for treason and just such a sort of harsh verbiage that comes out of his mouth directly to his base. and this seems like he is theth one facing 88 felony charges. it seems like the kind of thing that would get under his skin is what i'm trying to say. have you had any feedback from trump land? >> i haven't but that would make me feel terrible. while he's calling for people to be guilty of treason and

executed and calling members of the press like yourself enemies of the people i want to keep this civil. i want to provide a warm, welcome and safe harbored for him for the next decade or so. >> have you ever seen anyone in politics or any sort of civic life conduct themselves the way he does in the eve of his first criminal trial? >> you know, i think we are really watching a narcissistic sociopath in action. the problem with sociopaths is they fool a lot of people. they develop external skills in terms of charm and even a detainment skill that really can seduce. i think we have seen mass seduction of a large chunk of the population when it comes to donald trump and they have to

really kind of filter out the reality. he would talk with your previous guest about bills bringing reality. objectively, every court found joe biden won the election and challenges to that were frivolous. every course. the facts didn't matter, did they? with donald trump, you have to put aside the fact that he has been criminally indicted on 88 counts and four different venues. to say nothing of the fact he's already been found guilty and fined a half $1 billion from sexual assault to massive civil fraud in his business dealings in the state of new york. in any other circumstance, i would think, the average american would take that very seriously. in this case, it's the reason donald trump gets a pass by his cultist followers and i'm trying to remind them of

reality that not only is he indicted, but he could be held to account and this could be his final soft landing place. >> it is such a serious point how detached from the facts and even to have a conversation with a reporter who covers the maga movement you have to wind your way between an approach he takes to understanding how they ended up so detached from reality. your plan not so much detached. let us know if you make any progress. thank you for spending time with us. we will be right back.

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>> a major announcement for tens of millions of student loan borrowers offering a new plan for debt relief at the biden administration says would impact 23 million people forgiving the entire amount for more than 4 million of them. since the u.s. supreme court blocked resident biden's initial plan to eliminate up to $20,000 the administration has been taking a approach using existing rules to waive what they can. we will keep you posted. one last break for us and we will be right back. i do my own searching. it isn't efficient. use kayak.

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