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SHIFTING OF NUMBERS

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18 Apr

m Appandai Raj
SHIFTING OF NUMBERS

In Tamil and Malayalam ( may be Kannada too)... I think... for sure. ..a shifting occurred in
numbers 9,90,900,9000..

Present Tamil/Malayalam:

9-onbathu
90-thonnuru
900-thollayiram
9000-onbathu aayiram

In Ancient Tamil.. It must be

9-thondu/thol

90-onbathu (coz it rhymes with Ezhbathu=7 times of pattu , Enbathu=8 times of pattu,

Onbathu=9 times of pattu)

900-thonnuru (same as above., it rhymes Ezhnuru ENNuru Thonnuru)

9000-thollayiram

but to our surprise Telugu retains the ancient tamil numbers fashion..

9 thondu— thommidhi

90 onbathu-thombai

900 thonnuru-- thommidhi vantha

9000 thollayiram-thommidhi vei

Why did such a shift occurred in present tamil/malayam (and may be Kannada)... ??? Why it
didnt happen in telugu..???

m

19 Apr

vinoth

thondu pattu turns to onbathu

if u see the roman numerals , ten is X and nine is IX i.e one less than tamil

thondu pattu is somewhat closer to roman IX

pattu ten

thondu pattu — > nine

nooru hundred

thondu nooru — -> ninety

19 Apr

m Appandai Raj

Unlike Indo european languages. ..I think... This reducing one to ten., is not in dravidian
numbering....

fe^l^

19 Apr

Ramakrishnan

In fact the structure of the word on-patu (nine) itself indicates that it was onru before pattu
(one before ten), so 9.

vinoth

@appandai raj

there are links between dravidian and indo european languages

19 Apr

m Appandai Raj

As Velcheru Narayana Rao states in page 3 of his book Classical Telugu Poetry: "every Sanskrit
word is potentially a Telugu word as well, and literary texts in Telugu may be lexically Sanskrit
or Sanskritized to an enormous extent, perhaps sixty percent or more." ....

But nobody can deny that Telugu language, 'the Italian of the East 1 is a dravidian language

There are links but the links should not be in the lexical structure...

Onbathu must be ninety and it cannot be nine in ancient tamil....

Because in tamil The Prefix 'On 1 and 'tol' stands for Nine and not for one ....

Also note that ....In ancient tamil poetries.... the numbering was different... For example in
silappathikaaram... while mentioning the ages of heroine and hero, the poet mentions twelve
as Eeraaru (i.e., 2*6=12) and sixteen as Eerettu(i.e., 2*8=16)...

19 Apr

Ramakrishnan

"Q^n"6o"" means "ancient" or "before" or "prior" in tamil depending on the context. It does not
mean nine in any case.

tol+pattu --> tonpatu --> onpatu = before ten = nine.

So your reasoning is wrong, and you are trying to construct a new meaning for the word tol.

Telugu --> tommidi = tol + padi = nine

n

i • iln

19 Apr

S Appandai Raj

The shifting tonpatu — > onpatu cannot be possible.

... It alters the meaning....

Take Kannada for Kannada... Ombatthu is nine but thombatthu is ninety...

20 Apr

Ramakrishnan

In Tamil it does not alter the meaning.

Kannada word for ninety is a freak word which must have crept into common use by mistake. It
does not have correspondence with telugu or tulu or tamil.

tamil retains the same order - ex tol+nooru (100) = tonnooru (90), tol + aayiram (1000) =
tollaayiram (900)

aayiram is related to saavira/saasira of Kannada (ultimately from sahasra, from which the saha-
became a long saa by shedding aspiration and simplification of complex sra to sira when
loaned to dravidian, and shedding the initial s characteristic to tamil, it became aasiram and
ultimately aayiram). Telugu seems to retain the original word veyya (for thousand)

21 Apr

Appandai Raj

Freak word...????©

SHIFTING OF NUMBERS

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•?■,■ ■'•■

7 May

Appandai Raj

Do all the kannadigas in the community agree that thombatthu(ninety) is a freak word in
kannada as ramakrishan said..???

10 May

Nrupatunga
Appandai Raj

Could be. Sometimes back i had raised a point saying TaNNi as a word for water in tamil is freak
word though i did not put the exact word.

Gross misgeneralisation could be possible. Many times words lose their meaning partially or
completly or gross misconception can be possible.

H

11 May

Unceasing

il TaNNi a freak word?

In Kannada also we use Taneeru for cold water( rather normal water).

Tanni is just a shortened form of Tanneer. Paccha vellam and sudu vellam is used in Malayalam.
In Tamil Pacchai is raw and also green. Vellam also means water in Tamil but is used to denote
flood or overflowing of water in todays parlance.

In Tamil the word Paccha Tanni is also use to mean cold/raw/ or natural water.
I wonder how Tanni can be a freak word in Tamil?

Neer is also used in Tamil in a different context. It is used more as a liquid form and does not
naturally mean water. Steam is called 'Neeraavi' may be to distinguish it from the 'Pey
Aavi'(ghostl)

When some one has sinusitis they refer to 1 Neer 1 collecting in the head. One other interesting
word I used to hear as a child from my grandmother was 'Salam'(Jalam) and this was used to
denote only pus or any watery liquid oozing from the wounds. Never used as a water to drink.

In Agraharam Tamkrutham. Jalam will mean water.

Neer aaharam is also usesd as a phrase to denote water and food.

We use Tangali for cool breeze in Kannada. Tamils use Tendral and Vaadai. Now both these
words are freak if we try to find the root without the context and the bigger understanding of
Geography.

Tendral means the southerly winds which is cool and hence the name.
Vaadai means the Northern winds which is cold and comes in winter.

In Tamil Tendral signifies something like Kannada's Tangali, it could have been Tengali, as Tengu
also means cocunut or the southern tree. But the word Tengu, Tampu, Tangali all signify
something cool and refreshing.

I know this is a deviation from the main theme in this thread. In Kannada also the word thundu
has the same meaning as in Tamil. As someone said in this forum the standardisation of
languages takes place from the dialect which is more dominant or
ruling. Influence of regional variation might have caused these changes.

If a word sounds freak, then there is more to it than it actually seems. Fieldword is the answer!

14 May (5 days ago)
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• (5a £<55*

<<"Q^n"60 " means "ancient" or "before" or "prior" in tamil depending on the context. It does
not mean nine in any case, tol+pattu --> tonpatu --> onpatu = before ten = nine.>>

As far as 9 in Tamil is concerned, there is another word CW^sst'l -03 tontu , n. < Qa^nw". Nine;
@6m'u& ) 'v. Q&)[i6GU[ l^ul" ^l6U6iiW (ld^goll" . 21). However there are changes in the world
counting system based upon 1) Counting by Pairs 2)Neo - 2 - counting, 3) 4 count and 12 count
5)The 5 - 10 and 5 - 20 systems (20 count in Western Europe), 6)The 10 - 60 system.

Due to that effect, usage of CW^sst'l -0 for the numerical value 9 is renounced. For 9, the word
onbathu was invented giving the meaning one reduced from 10.

However, Telugu word Tommidhi is wrongly derived from the Tamil words Thondu (9)+Pathu
(10)-> Thonbathu->Thombadhi->Thommidhi. Again this is reflected as Enimidhi for 8 (as in
Tamil En means 8+ Pathu means 10). En+Pathu->(Enpathu)->Enimidhi (wrong derivation in
Telugu. For the value 80, it is enabadhi or enabhai).

In Dravidian languages esp Tamil, the Primary counting is based upon 10 System. Pathu (1*10),
irupathu (2*10), Muppathu (3*10), Narpathu (4*10), Aimpathu (5*10), Arupathu, (6*10),
Ezhupathu(7*10), Enbathu (8*10). but for 90, it is Q«5nm>ITjrJpl00)- (a Value before 100).

14 May (5 days ago)
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With regard to Counting of 10 to 90, In Sanskrit, Latin, Irish, Russian, Greek,
Avestan languages, it is based upon 100 (centa, Konta and sat Format).

Twenty: Armenian k'san, Albanian njezet/njizet, Gaulish vocontio, Greek eikosi,

Avestan visaiti, Irish fiche/fiche, Kashmiri vuh, Latin vlgintl, Persian /best, Kamviri
vici, Russian dvjenadsaf, Sanskrit viiisati, Tocharian wiki/ikam, Welsh ugain. These
words are derived as Dvi(2)+Satam(100)->Dvisatam->Dvimsati->Vimsati)

Thirty: Latin trlginta, Greek triakonta, Irish /triocha, Russian trinadsat', Sanskrit
triiisat (Thri (3)+Satam (100)->Trisati)

Forty: Latin quadraginta, Greek tessarakonta, Russian cetyrnadsat 1 , Sanskrit
catvariiisat (Catur (4)+Satam (100)-> catvariiisat)

Fifty: Latin quinquaginta, Greek pentekonta, Irish /caoga, Russian pjatnadsaf,
Sanskrit pancasat (Pamcha (5)+Satam (100)-> paricasat

Sixty:Latin: sexaginta, Greek exekonta, Irish /seasca, Russian sestnadsaf, Sanskrit
sastih (Sas (6)+Satam (100)->sastih

Seventy: Latin septuaginta, Greek heptakonta, Irish /seachto, Russian semnadsaf,
Sanskrit saptatih (Sapta (7)+Satam (100)->saptatih

Eighty:Latin octaginta, Greek ogdokonta, Irish /ochto, Russian (v)osemnadsat',
Sanskrit asltih (Ashta (8)+Satam (100)->asltih

Ninety: Latin nonaginta, Greek ennenekonta, Irish /nocha, Russian devjatnadsaf,
Sanskrit na vat ih (Nava (9)+Satam (100)->navatih )

14 May (5 days ago)
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Order of counting System

except from 11 to 19, the counting System in English is similar to Tamil, Telugu, and other
languages,
ty (10)

suffix representing "ten" in cardinal numbers (sixty, seventy, etc.), from O.E. -tig, from a Gmc.
root (cf. Du. -tig, O.Fris. -tich, O.N. -tigr, O.H.G. -zig, -zug, Ger. -zig) that existed as a distinct
word in Gothic tigjus, O.N. tigir "tens, decades." English, like many other Germanic languages,
retains traces of a base-12 number system. The most obvious instance is eleven and twelve
which ought to be the first two numbers of the "teens" series. Their Old English forms, enleofan
and twel(eo)f(an), are more transparent: "leave one" and "leave two." Old English also had
hund endleofantig for "110" and hund twelftig for "120." One hundred was hund teantig. The
-tig formation ran through 12 cycles, and could have bequeathed us numbers *eleventy ("110")
and *twelfty ("120") had it endured, but already during the O.E. period it was being obscured.
O.N. used hundra5 for "120" and |ousend for "1,200." Tvauhundra5 was "240" and |Driuhundra5
was "360." Older Germanic legal texts distinguished a "common hundred" (100) from a "great
hundred" (120). This duodecimal system, according to one authority, is "perhaps due to contact
with Babylonia."

^rr^ua^" [20]+@6^r'no" D [l] ->^1rr" D u^'Q^n"6^r'rT)" D
Twenty [20] +one[l]->Twenty one

o— > a—,

But in Sanskrit, the count is in disorder.

^cblR^lfrl [21]

W [1]+ f^lfa [20] {Dvi(2)+Satam(100)->Dvisatam->Dvimsati->Vimsati 20}-> l{cMfiu*lfa [21],

as in the case of English Thirteen [3(Three)+10 (Ten/Teen)=13].

14 May (5 days ago)
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Almost all Indo European languages (including Devabhasha) lost the t in Twenty (20).
Twenty:Armenian k'san, Albanian njTzet/njizet, Gaulish vocontio, Greek eikosi, Avestan visaiti,
Irish fiche/fiche, Kashmiri vuh, Latin vTgintT, Persian /best, Kamviri vici, , Sanskrit vihsati,
Tocharian wiki/ikam, Welsh ugain except Germnic Group as evidenced in the English language
and Russian (dvjenadsat 1 ).

Twenty:O.E. twentig "group of twenty/ 1 from twegen "two" (see two) + -tig "group often" (see
-ty (1)). Cognate with O.Fris. twintich, Du. twintig, O.H.G. zweinzug, Ger. zwanzig. Goth, twai
tigjus is even more transparent: lit. "two tens as^rr^u^r (^\j6tfflL-~ a +u& > & > ~ a )
(http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=twenty&searchmode=none)

15 May (4 days ago)

Ramakrishnan

The zati in viMzati does not refer to 100, it refers to ten, being a short form of dazati (which
means ten).

16 May (3 days ago)
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//ten Latin decern, Greek deka, Sanskrit dasa//

thirty Latin trlginta, Greek triakonta, Sanskrit trihsat
forty Latin quadraginta, Greek tessarakonta, Sanskrit catvarihsat
fifty Latin quinquaginta, Greek pentekonta, Sanskrit pancasat
sixty Latin sexaginta, Greek exekonta, Sanskrit sastih
seventy Latin septuaginta, Greek heptakonta, Sanskrit saptatih
eighty Latin octaginta, Greek ogdokonta, Sanskrit asltih
ninety Latin nonaginta, Greek ennenekonta, Sanskrit navatih

//hundred Latin centum, Greek hekaton, Sanskrit sata//

Latin: Inti, Ginta from Centa (Kenta), Greek: akonta/ekonta from hekaton, (centam languages)
and Sanksrit: sat from sata. (satam Language).

The dazati (10) is not attested in these languages, unlike Tamil and English languages (^rr ,
glrr , ldO@, [511601, §g, ^n) -0 , erLp -0 , 6T6®x' , Cl^nm', twe, third, for, fif), Sanksrit could not further
create abbreviation forms for these numerals (gMj -0 , ^[p 3 , ldO@, r5U6ftT, gg, ^HfD -0 , ^"Lp -0 , 6T666[' ,
Q^n"6rr", twe, third, for, fif). Therefore in Tamil and English languages, the numeric format is
20+1, 30+1 etc. But in Sanskrit, it is 1+20, 2+20.... or 1+30, 2+30.... etc

In Sanskrit, the counting system format should be trimsata eka (30+1), etc. but the case is
different in Skt i.e. ekatrimshat (1+30), dvaatrimshat (2+30): trayastrimshat(3+30):

catustrimshat(4+30): pancatrimshat (5+30), unlike English counting system [Thirty one
(30+1), Thirty Two(30+2), Thirty three (30+3)] and/or Tamil counting System
[i_D~ D u'ug'Qgn'6OT'fT)' D (30+1), LD" D u'u^'^1rr6OT"'i_" n (30+2), ld^u'u^'^I LD , :;A©6^r'rT)" D (30+3)].

16 May (3 days ago)
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• <5s> £(55*

Numerals in Latin representing cardinal values that are eight more (two less) than a multiple of
ten are constructed literally as:

duo ("'two'") + de ("'from'") + multiple often

Thus, the numeral for 38 is normally written as duodequadraginta ("'two from forty'"), rather
than as the expected trlginta octo ("'thirty-eight'") or octo et trlginta ("'eight and thirty'"),
compare tamil and Telugu words Eight and nine (enimindhi, Thommidhi and onbadhu).

The latter two additive forms are possible, but are not found in Classical Latin as frequently as
the subtractive form.

Numerals representing cardinal values that are nine more (one less) than a multiple of ten are
constructed literally as:

Gnus ("'one'") + de ("'from'") + multiple often

Thus, the numeral for 39 is normally written as undequadraginta ("'one from forty'"), rather
than as the expected trlginta novem ("'thirty-nine'") or novem et trlginta ("'nine and thirty'").
The latter two additive forms are possible, but are not found in Classical Latin as frequently as
the subtractive form.

Tens +8 ( or -2 ) Tens +9 ( or -1 )

18 XVIII duodevlgintl 19 XIX undevlgintl

28 XXVIII duodetrlginta 29 XXIX undetrlginta

38 XXXVIII duodequadraginta 39 XXXIX undequadraginta

48 XLVIII duodequlnquaginta 49 XLIX undequlnquaginta

58 LVIII duodesexaginta 59 LIX undesexaginta

68 LXVIII duodeseptuaginta 69 LXIX undeseptuaginta

78 LXXVIII duodeoctoginta 79 LXXIX undeoctoginta

88 LXXXVIII duodenonaginta 89 LXXXIX undenonaginta

98 XCVIII nonaginta octo 99 XCIX undecentum

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16 May (3 days ago)

Ramakrishnan

The dazati (10) is not attested in these languages.
From A.A.Macdonnell's dictionary
dasati [ dasa-ti ] f. decade

vimsati [ vi-m-sa-tf ] f. [two-decade: (d)vi-m (da)sa-tf] twenty (w. a pi. in the same case,
governing a g. pi., or &degree;-): (i)-ka, a. twenty years old; consisting of twenty (syllables or
panas: fine); n. twenty; -tama, a. twen tieth (w. bhaga, m. twentieth part); -bhaga, m. twentieth
part; -ma, a. twentieth; m. twentieth part; -varsha-desiya, a. about twenty years old; -varshika,
a. (T) lasting twenty years; taking place after twenty years; -&half;!sa, -&half;Tsin, m. chief of
twenty villages.

By the way decade means ten

17:28 (16 hours ago)
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<<By the way decade means ten >>

Though the word decade or dasati means ten, Nowhere the words Latin decern, Greek deka,
Sanskrit dasa used in the following counting.

thirty Latin trlginta, Greek triakonta, Sanskrit trihsat

forty Latin quadraginta, Greek tessarakonta, Sanskrit catvarihsat

fifty Latin quinquaginta, Greek pentekonta, Sanskrit pancasat

In the following cases, Skt is also not using the sata format (uniclaimed dasati format) and but
using ti, and ti format, thereby showing prakrit (/derivation) irregular character.

sixty Latin sexaginta, Greek exekonta, Sanskrit sastih
seventy Latin septuaginta, Greek heptakonta, Sanskrit saptatih
eighty Latin octaginta, Greek ogdokonta, Sanskrit asltih
ninety Latin nonaginta, Greek ennenekonta, Sanskrit navatih.

Latin: Ginta is derived from Centa 100 (Kenta), Greek: akonta/ekonta is derived from hekaton
100, (centam languages) and Sanksrit: sat/sati/ti/ti is derived from sata 100. (satam Language).

17:38 (15 hours ago)
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• t5s> £(55*

<<ln fact the structure of the word on-patu (nine) itself indicates that it was onru before pattu
(one before ten), so 9.>>

<<if u see the roman numerals , ten is X and nine is IX i.e one less than tamil>>

Not only in Tamil, but also in Latin and Skt, the counting system is changed.

19 navadashan or ekonavimshati or uunavimshati or ekaannavimshati The words "ekona=eka

+ uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Vimshati" means "twenty".

So, the idea is "twenty minus one=19".
ii

29 navavimshati or ekonatrimshat or uunatrimshat or ekaannatrimshat The words "ekona=eka
+ uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Trimshat" means "thirty". So,
the idea is "thirty minus one=29".

39 navatrimshat or ekonacatvaarimshat or uunacatvaarimshat or ekaannacatvaarimshat

49 navacatvaarimshat or ekonapancaashat or uunapancaashat or ekaannapancaashat

59 navapancaashat or ekonasasti or uunasasti or ekaannasasti

69 navasasti or ekonasaptati or uunasaptati or ekaannasaptati

79 navasaptati or ekonaashiitf or uunaashiitf or ekaannaashiitf The words "ekona=eka + uuna";
"uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Ashiitf" means "eighty". So, the idea is
"eighty minus one=79".

89 Ekaennvit The words "ekona=eka + uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean
"minus one". "Navati" means "ninety". So, the idea is "ninety minus one=89".

99 navanavati or ekonashata or uunashata or ekaannashata The words "ekona=eka + uuna";
"uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Shata" means "one hundred". So, the
idea is "one hundred minus one=99".