free palestine 5 times until finally collapsing. he died later at washington dc hospital. he was only 25 years old. aaron bush now. his death was no simple suicide . it was a bold political statement. but the question is whether anybody in washington will listen. i'm john kerry, uncle, welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 aaron bush, no clearly gave a lot of thought to what he was about to do that sunday. he said good bye to his friends and his family gave away all of his possessions. he had breakfast a few days earlier with an air force friend and they talked about human rights, conscientious objection and the war in palestine on his way to these really embassy aaron began live streaming himself on facebook after dallas himself. aaron said this quote, i am about to engage in an extreme active protest,

but compared to what people have been experiencing in palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it's not extreme at all. this is what our ruling class has decided will be normal on quote. there is an important aspect to what aaron did. he did not commit suicide, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. that's something that most of us don't understand, but we don't understand self emulation as a political statement. today we have a guest who can help us sort through this complicated issue. we're joined by a sharp christmas one e. she's a writer currently working on a piece on self emulation. as you're welcome to the show, we're still happy to join us. you the same here. thank you. i've learned just in the past few days, a few things about self immolation. i learned that it is not a form of suicide, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. i've learned that there is

a very, very long history of self immolation in buddhist and hindu culture. before we get into the specifics of self immolation as a political act, tell us about self emulation in the historical literature. that's okay. well, it showed up around $3000.00 b, c in both hendo and um, but this literature ended, but this literature, it always comes as a form of sacrifice for the greater community. for example, above the set 12, which is an enlightened being who threw himself into a fire. so that disturbing community could have enough food. and so it's always a hat. so the emulation as a, as a gift to the community. so it has to be done, according to book this philosophy, it has to be done for the benefit of the community and not just in order to end your existence. so the purpose matters. the purpose matters. so simulation entered

the western consciousness during the vietnam war. when buddhist monk teach quantum duke famously set himself on fire to protest the war. the image of him on fire has been seen by virtually every american who was paying any attention in the 19 sixties and thereafter the western media generally described that as a suicide. but another month teaching of hon. explain why that was wrong. i have a lazy quote here, but i think it's important. he said suicide is an act of self destruction having as causes the following, lack of courage to live and to cope with difficulties. defeat by life and loss of all hope desire for non existence. the monk who burns himself has lost neither courage nor hope, nor does he desire non existence. on the contrary, he's very courageous and hopeful and aspires for something good in the future. he does not think that he's destroying himself. he believes in the good fruition of

his active self sacrifice for the sake of others. i believe with all my heart that the monks who birds themselves did not aim at their death of their oppressors, but only at a change in their policy. their enemies are not meant and they are in tolerance, fanaticism, dictatorship, stupidity, patriot and discrimination which lie within the heart of man. on quote. tell us why this explanation is so important. why there is such a divide between the eastern sense of what's a self emulation is and the western sense. well, let me begin with the significance of fire in abraham make religions and in eastern religions. so in abrahamic religions, fire is associated with hell and sin and negativity. while in eastern religions, people will worship the element of fire and as

a me and that is associated with purity, cleansing holiness. and so for many years and those and but this a like have done ritual and the most animal sacrifice using fire. and so i think that symbolism of what fire represent in christian and is law making today of cultures versus eastern cultures matter. and so a lot on top of that, there's also the idea of how somebody gets to live on versus ending existence. that is a little bit different in these cultures in, but that was them. you often have reincarnation, right? so this life is not the end. and in abrahamic religions, there is an after life which people, but people don't believe people come back to earth to live again. so i think that makes the big difference on how social emulation is perceived in eastern versus

western cultures. in a letter to martin luther king junior way back in 1965 monk teach not han was even more concise. he said in this very short letter to martin luther king, the monks and nuns whose self emulated were not committing suicide. rather, their self sacrifices were aimed at moving the hearts of the oppressors. and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering that is endured, it is done to wake us up on quote, is that really what this act is all about? it's to draw attention to wake up the public consciousness and to effect or to impact the oppressor. a, a yes for o, for many monks who input them, at least they believe in extreme a non violent. and so therefore, the only acceptable form of violence is to turn upon one. so, and that creates a message within the community to say, hey,

this is serious. there is extreme oppression, extreme suffering. look at my look at how much i am willing to endure in order to bring this to your attention. please take me seriously. and so that is definitely the purpose of doing that. and that's why i often amongst did that during the, in south vietnam in 1962. so it seems like aaron bush now head right upon them and also kind of understood the philosophical ramifications of this. and that's why he said there is an extreme form of protest that i'm engaging in and it, and it went to us marie, even us, the air for airman uses this kind of extreme protest. a lot of people started to bank and there have been protests with veterans in portland dc. well, who are bringing their old uniforms in solidarity with erin bush now. so she has

achieved something that others have not achieved is to get a larger community engaged and getting to think about the us relationship with israel and palestine. and whether this is the right side of history or the moral side of history. well, let me ask you about that. i know i'm not sure if, if here in the west, we just don't pay as close attention to some of these issues as we should. or if maybe the media are complicit. and the reason i raise that is because there was a woman who's self emulated in front of me is really console it in atlanta. in december, we think it's a lady. we don't know. the media never reported beyond the fact that somebody set themselves on fire. we don't know a name. we don't know if there was a statement. we don't know a purpose. we don't even know if this person is still alive and may be suffering in a hospital somewhere. so, why don't we see more self emulations if they have such

a deep political meaning? is it just because it's a, it's a foreign concept or it's because the media don't want us to know. i think it's a bit of both in 2018 a climate protesters, so emulated in front of the white house. and so it, and even with erin bush knows case, if you look at a lot of these articles, there's like 2 things. they buried the lee, right? so they don't actually say why he's self emulated. they say police say man, self emulated in front of the embassy. and then in, that's not necessary to say police fame because the videos available. why don't use paper even said his purpose was not clear when he was screaming from the top of his lungs free palestine free, palestine, it seems like his purpose is very clear. so it seems like there is a concerted effort by many newspapers to bury the lead. and i,

and i think this happens whenever there is a protest that goes against the state interests. for the longest time, even black lives matter fight for 15, kind of got a skewed of media coverage because it goes against the state interest. and i think that continues on and i think they do it because most. ringback these media organizations just hire from a handful of elite schools and these people have the same life experience. so it's hard for them to imagine kind of other people having different experiences and sting things from their point of view. yeah, i think that's right. you know, sometimes i watch the news, the, the main stream news here in, in the united states. and i think am i living in the same country, is these people, you know, there are stories that are so critically important to me that are just completely ignored. and, and vice versa. we see that all the time here. oh yeah. yeah.

i mean, example is, and this nbc screaming and the rest your game went and then ignore in so many other stories after the 4 year st. gates and stuff. oh listen, i've made it. i've made a living talking about how much to the consternation of the likes of m. s n b c. there was no interference in the 20162020 elections, but that's a different issue. we're going to take a short commercial break and when we return, we'll continue our conversation with journalist and podcast, or as a christmas one, me on the meaning and import of self emulation. stay tuned. 2 the acceptance, and i'm going to play with you, whatever you do,

do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do you have the state department to see i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way inside the i'm not sure come on this as they do show a good this things for me was getting that with me is the non smoker in your mind story, enough to money. so stuff with interested in show eric, i buy a demo print that issue in your store or do i have to wake up with one of my that's not i was me for example of christ to train us man that way people. so i right,

uh your yeah, for the most just what i want to move over here, but as of now, particularly that group didn't come around quite inflate them oval. this is crazy. nice not crazy. this is it. absolutely. i'd rather proof of an issue with the much just isn't good news that this is the key view. i'll send you the wrong. i'm not ready to feel understood where so when you are still at the trip with us, which is really nice with you. so you're still going yes, sort of the

welcome back to the list of lawyers. i'm john kerry, onto were speaking with journalist and podcast, or instruct christmas swami about the act of self immolation. good to have you with us as well. thanks for being here. thank you for having me sir. the. the green whistleblower daniel ellsberg was a dear friend of mine. he told me once that in 1965 he just happens to be at the pentagon. when norman morrison set himself on fire. just 40 feet from the office of the secretary of defense, robert mcnamara, he watched the entire thing unfold, and he said that he was affected by it for the rest of his life. morrison was a quaker, and an opponent of the war in vietnam and lake erin bush. now, this was not an act of suicide, but a seriously considered political statement. even more interesting daniels where he

said that nothing or a himself was horrified and affected by morrison's action. i'm not sure how we can actually quantify something like that. but historically, how does one measure the effectiveness of the active self immolation? maybe a better way to ask this is how somebody can do something like setting himself or herself on fire and then not have it be done in vain. well, i think it has to do with the, with what happens next or the kind of the political climate in south vietnam. most people were unhappy with the government. they did not like the fact that the government saw the people as the and mediate, not like living in poverty. they did not like the forcible relocations and this gave them somebody in this helped many who were disparate and alone united

together in a kazi. and so right, so it has to be, there has to be a political climate or on, on the ground that enables that. and of course, it really helps when it gets attention, like aaron bush noted because people were able to see the wrong video. and the twit stream, i think that affected people it, i mean it affected me and those being so many horrific images throughout my career . and so and, and, and so i think those are the 2 issues of what kind of grassroots infrastructure is there for people to fight against the government or those in power. and unfortunately in many places in the us, there isn't much fear there is very little like very little protest or very little civil resistance goes on to so many government and justices that sometimes it can

seem hopeless. and i think that is probably another reason what that led him to do it because he couldn't join our civil rights organization to protest this or the end. there isn't a concert, grassroots effort that can actually lead to policy change. so i think there needs to be, it is for this to happen. it seems like he himself felt desperate and in despair and did not know what to do. mohammed was easy to an asian fruit merchant, set himself on fire in 2009 because he had been harassed by the police and the corrupt an asian government did nothing to help him. that act of self immolation set off the air of spring, which brought down multiple, middle eastern governments. why do you think it is that some the act of self emulation are, are so impactful? while others like this, still a named woman? we think it's a woman who set herself on fire outside these rarely consummate consulate in

atlanta last year are, are virtually ignored. is that again, default of, of our culture or our media. i think it's a little bit of both. and there's also a lot of other factors on the ground. let me give you a completely different example. when the police killed george floyd on video that created a lot of protest that was prolonged. but there has been probably a 1000 cases where police have killed the other people on protest and that barely makes it limp on the radar and start drawing for it. of course it was, people were already home and with the coal red and it was extra horrific to watch this on film live. and so i think that mattered. so similarly, i think what mattered with the women in atlanta is that there was no video, they just heard reports and it was very distant for people. i think here having

that video made it very personal for many people. so that's why this has made it to international news. world leaders, i've seen the eval morales and nicholas my doodle have offered condolence, but it's for the family. so it has made international news. yes. has a, it's a marine, it's a air min and be it was on video. and so when somebody who is an active member of the us military does such an extreme action, people, it really people wonder what is going on, what, what, what made him do this extreme form of protest? what does he know being in the air force that we don't know? and those questions are being answered by many people right now. so i have what might be a little bit of a sensitive question. about a year and a half ago, i was speaking at

a rally for julian assange in front of the justice department here in washington dc . and as i finished speaking, a young man walked up to the podium, took off all of his clothes, doused himself with lighter fluid, and started trying to light a lighter to set himself on fire. and instinctively i tackled him. and a friend of mine kicked the lighter out of his hand. he was mumbling something about prison conditions and i don't know what he was talking about, the police to their credit. and this was a big surprise for me. the police did not take him to jail, they took him to a hospital, which is exactly what he, what do you need? how do we discern in cases of self immolation? what are political statements, and what are the actions of someone who needs mental health intervention? i think a lot of it has to do with how they plan it, whether they're um,

whether it's a long term plan or what and how they arrange for the impact. so um and with erin bush, no, he was in the air force and he seemed to have passed all the mental examinations. good boys in the air force, which makes a big difference. this young man, i don't know much about, but it seems like he has not been vetted by any mental health professional. and we o, let's say, don't know what happened in the hospital. so i think that is the main difference. but of course most people, when somebody itself emulating or trying to do that, they will do what you did because that is what we should do as society and not try to distinguish it. it's just that somebody like aaron bush now will not do it in

such a way that it's so that and it is easy for others to tackle him and pushed him out of the way because it's more planned and it's more of a sane, rational decision as opposed to this young man as more people are educated about this issue, do you think it might become more common in the united states or in the broader west? it seems like such a terrifying choice. i personally can't even imagine doing it, but i'm sure that others can do you think we should expect to see it happen more often? i don't think so just because of the culture in the meaning of fire in the culture and the various kind of cultural conditions, it's highly unlikely that it will happen more. but if there is somebody in the future who wants to do this, i would deeply suggest that they try to create an organization such that that will

allow for civil resistance and a way to fight against us government policy. liking the 1960 civil rights and anti war movement, which is very effective. yes. because we definitely need more people who are going to be fighting against injustice in this world. yes, indeed. what do you think the legacy is going to be of aaron bush now? i, you know, i have to say none of us had ever heard of this young man's name before just a few days ago. and now his family is receiving calls from presidents and prime ministers. and you know, reading the main stream media coverage of the days before his death. he knew exactly what he was doing. as you said, it was very well planned out and he did it for a very specific purpose. again, i could never do such a thing, but i actually admire the florida to that he showed in making this bold statement.

what do you think? and it's hard to say, what i can say is that it has been impactful across the world. whether or not it will lead to his ultimate issue of the policy change with the us and israel, that's very hard to say. but now with the us is recognizing that their position with israel is untenable. for example, the bite in administration has been playing around with arrows dropping food into guys because israel has been blocking a trucks. it that's coming from the west. and so a, so i think that this is maybe a spark. but more and more people, it seems like wherever biden goes, it's he cannot stop the cries of free palestine everywhere. like when he tried to interview in on nbc would set to myers. there was a big audience,

a in the rockefeller proud plaza. so it is getting to be a more and more difficult to for politicians to hold their status quell position where it's israel, let's let israel do whatever it does. and so we just have to kind of see what end also there is the fact that militarily, it's also getting harder because of what's going on in the admin in the gulf of aiden and with the ships. so i think the combination may change the policy and so, and so they are paying attention to popular opinion, even if they don't want to. i think you may be on to something there. i think that the people are being forced to pay attention and you know, when you have the world food program, for example, the head of which is not just an american, but, but cindy mccain at formerly ambassador sydney mccain,

predicting of famine of epic proportions. where as many as to the 5 percent of palestinians are going to starve to death. in the next several weeks, people are going to start paying attention. and then when you have the likes of aaron bush, they'll forcing this onto the front page of every paper in the western world. maybe that's how things get done. so as you're working, people learn more about about the work that you do come to my website. historically h i s t o r i c l y dot net and also i'm at a show legal on twitter. yep. and we have a lot of interesting things coming up after this article. we're doing the deep dive on fast isn't because everyone has a deep misconception on fascism. so we're planning a video series on that. excellent. and they do have misconceptions. thank you so much for being with us. the great author, ernest hemingway wrote in his epic work, a farewell to arms quote. when you love,

you wished to do things for you wish to sacrifice for you wish to serve and quote, that's what earned voice. now that he loves the palestinian people so much, he was so horrified by the plight of the palestinians that he's sacrifice for the. so i want to think i should christmas while me for joining us today and for shedding light on this important and timely issue. and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time the. 2 2 2 2 2 the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show your mind,

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