the i'm action or times here. welcome back to going under ground, broke of single around the world from dubai in the u. a. where do you think is the most dangerous border in the well, the rush or you grain, north, south korea. not according to a recent special report from the u. s. and apparently, the us mexico border is the most dangerous border in the world toward benjamin a journalist, also and seen the national security fellow at the us center for immigration studies has been reported on the ground for years along the us mexico border in his new book he provides a full account of what he argues is a west mess integration board of crisis. the united states has ever experienced the book over run out. joe biden, melisha, the greatest board of crisis in us. history is out now to have benjamin joins me now from cleveland in the us border states, texas. thank you so much. talk to you later. uh, coming on. i mean, i've just stopped with the fact that, uh, what, what is the scale of the immigration crisis? because normally, i mean,

we talk about the fact that the chinese population filled 588002022 is a shrinking population. the scare in the united states. but your book seems to talk about the fact you need fewer immigrants don't more. which really the point is you need more immigrants, right? well, it depends on what your perspective is. there are people who believe that, you know, laws, immigration laws ought to be followed. and the u. s. is probably one of the only countries in the world where there are a sizable, you know, populations outside us citizens that believe otherwise, that maybe we should just ignore the i n a, the immigration and nationality act in all of the last that or when we go out globally, towards so, i mean, no one thinks america, i mean, you say in the book americans, you're going to be a nation of legal immigrants that your, a 9 year old homeland security intelligence career informs you of use. would start

with that abiding, believe that america occupies the moral high ground as a nation of little. i mean, no one around the world thinks the united states is about law. so if we, i mean, that's nothing serious is as well. i mean, i think there are a lot of people in the united states that believe that the i n a ought to be followed. the i n a is a set of laws that are very specific, says that dow shout, you must, it's not may detain into poor anybody who crosses a legally without permission. in this country, we have allowed at least 5500000 people in over the southern border and about 24 months. this is absolutely unheard of. it's nothing like this has ever happened in american history. and to give you some kind of an idea of scale going back to your original question, which is that maybe we might have had 400300008

year for, you know, the most recent 10 years leading out to, uh, to, to the buying administration, and now we are looking at, you know, 2 and a half 1000000 crossing that border are attempting to cross that border in a single year. so the scope and the scale is absolutely beyond anything in, in the us experience. and i think that that alone qualifies it as a historic event and certainly justifying a for sure. no, absolutely. but i mean, i don't understand how, i mean, even 2000000 is not going to be enough. at the moment the united states faces folding life expectancy since 2019 low, but the rates of fidelity rate of $6.90 and sixty's below replacement level years. it goes now at 1.6 by 2030 for the u. s. is estimated to have more people over 65, then people under 18, you desperately need young people to be legal immigrants. they have children,

presumably they all work. i mean, i lived in l. a for a while. there were plenty of people from across the border. i'm sure some of them were illegal and you desperately need these people to come across the board of otherwise the united states is going to suffer, isn't it? i cannot make like, oh yeah, i understand what you're saying. i mean, that is an argument. that is a policy argument for legal immigration. that argument is always be any legal immigration. that's why they had all that stuff about the trying to get the papers for the parents of a of children that have good jobs. i mean, 40 percent of the $500.00 largest u. s. companies were funded by immigrants or the children of chris. some of these are the children of great grandparents who came over legally. that's since the menu, right. we can you civil war? we kind of do, we always have had some illegal immigration for sure, but illegal immigration is not the solution to the issues that you're raising.

that's an issue for legal immigration. we, we, in the united states allow for about a 1000000 a year to come in. i mean, that's a legitimate policy debate. you could like raise the congress, raise the rate, you could have congress lower the rate. you could have an administration seek to. so bureaucratic, isn't it? i mean, i know it obviously speaking up for the cartels, you're describing the book and the roof a uh, crime link, gangs that help families to come across you being on the porter. i'm not speaking up for them, but your version the bureau critize in all of a legal immigration that's really expensive to the us tax bank. i'm on as well. i think that there is a, there, there is often a conflation, an inappropriate conflation of legal immigration and, and illegal immigration as so it's one in the same. it is not in any country in the

world, not only existing countries, but all comes trees down to ancient times. the usa is founded on a legal immigration, isn't it? by definition, your country is founded on illegal immigration. uh, not that i'm aware of, you know, asylum, you know, the native americans clearly than that. you said ancient times obviously just speak to any native american in any of the so called reservations. they'll tell you the bottom usa is founded on the legal immigration as well. okay. so yeah, if you want to go back to pre pre nations, but you could talk about that. i think the comanche went back to differ. they fought, tooth and nail against mexicans, illegal immigration incursion, armed incursions, that kind of keeps the doors and all that. we can go around about that if you want . but as a matter of modern nation state,

all nation state sea to control their, their borders with laws and with armed guards, it's a guarded perimeter and always has been illegal. immigration is something that, as far as i know, no nation on earth countenances, they try to counter it and, and stop it and block it and return it as much as possible. and i think that, that the, to the question of, you know, low birth rates and labor markets and that sort of thing. again, the place for that discussion is in the congress and to amend the loss if we want to amend the loss. but we have walls on the books right now that would, uh, black stopped a tour with detention and deportation. like every other country on the planet. yeah . but it's really interest isn't it? of american. the leads as the economy flounders in the midwest in the area which

trump so eloquently spoke about and voted for him, the, the destroyed manufacturing base of the united states. so the address of it leads to, to alien that is the other. it's race basing and this kind of thing has been used forever. so in congress then we're going to get legislation to say, look, the united states and desperately needs immigrants, otherwise it will turn out like west virginia, wherever i think this is the population. i know just yeah, i don't disagree that there are a business the leads and corporate a leads that loves the idea of having a cheap labor are coming in and legally over the border, but it just doesn't justify whatever or whatever economic interest or political interest is served by massive, illegal immigration of the greatest numbers we've ever seen in the history of the united states to flout congressional will and mandates. we have

a loss in your book. you talk about the countries where the immigrants come from and i should say, you do say in the book to a limited point, i empathize with these immigrants is somewhat similar to the determined peoples who hit the wilderness trails during the california gold rush. and the 1950s, although give me not as much gold in california as that's what's in the 18 fifty's . why do you think conditions as such that people would want to live live cuba, venezuela, nicaragua, haiti, risk their families, lives coming over and try and they look in the us. well, because the united states has probably the most powerful economy in the world. i talk about, oh, you know, my interviews with many thousands of immigrants. i know their stories may be better than anybody else. i spent a lot of time with them. but so you know that nobody wants to live in haiti. but by the same token of the vast majority of haitians who have been crossing the southern

border were living quite safely and prosperous. lee in 3rd, other countries like actually and they decided to come only because they saw the gate swing open and that they could do an upgrade. and you can argue the same thing for venezuelans. they're living in 1520 different 3rd countries, often very price. firstly, for many, many years and only now decided across the border because they saw the gate swing open, at least that's what they tell me and i believe all. yeah, and you talk about the age or imply the soft power, types of hollywood. what is, what is it that gives them the idea that life will be better in the united states when there's an image projected to all these other countries the life is fantastic in the us. but as we know, as i said, life expectancy is following those. uh, i don't know how many 40000000 tonight to me wouldn't be able to eat without the snap food stamp program. the right is all about, you know,

it's comparative analysis and immigrants, you know, or smart i've, i've met probably, you know, hundreds and hundreds. it's not thousands of immigrants who are very keen, fully aware of us immigration policy far more than your average american out and in the analyze our policies in a way that would tell them whether this is a good time to late or money down there. smuggling money to get into the united states. they want to get into the united states because a lot of them have relatives that are living here who are sending back reports about their lifestyles. it is a fable lifestyle, the united states, lifestyle there's. there's a kind of a sense of that there's, there's a limitless opportunity whether you achieve uh, you know, material success in the united states is an open question. but a lot of those immigrants want to have a chance to gamble it to make,

to make it rich, to strike it rich. just like the people that took the klondike trail back in the 18 ninety's in the united states, etc. and nobody knew that they were going to strike gold. and i think that there's, you know, it's understandable that they wouldn't want to do that. however, there's a legal way to do it. it may not be a great legal way to do it because it takes time. it's not as quick as just the legally jumping somebody's borders, but it is the legal way to do it. ta benjamin. i'll stop you. the more from the senior national security fellow of the us center for immigration studies after this break the

the what is the ukraine conflict? really all about we're told is about democracy. other say it's about the res baseboard or whatever that me. in fact, there is nothing noble about this conflict. it's just another huge griffin. those in power, want to keep it that way. the welcome back to going out of the garden. i'm still here with us center for immigration studies to at benjamin the also has a new book overrun l joe biden, at least the greatest board of crisis and us history. you said there were legal ways in which people can come across the border for these people that have left

countries sanctioned by the united states by policy. the united states has tried to destroy the economies of venezuela, cuba, chile, a while back brazil to ecuador the united states is actively engaged in destroying those economies of validly reusing sanctions. and then you said, you know, you've met them in 3rd countries. well, by them is just put in a policy within a 3rd country. you cannot apply for asylum in the united states. what legal ways that for them to come to the united states. do you apply uh for an immigrant visa, or you apply for uh for uh, i'm not talking about crossing the border and talking about applying to become a resident of the united states. it takes time. it costs money. uh, there's not a guarantee that you will be accepted, it does, it is a pay, i get it, but it's just not much different than if you were to apply to become a citizen of germany or australia or any other country, south africa,

wherever canada, you can become a refugee, you can enter as a refugee apply as a refugee. i'll go through reading. there are lots of legal way. you don't think that is the only mill just to kind of tricky to southern border. yes. does learn in build pressure this against people south of the rio grande, though, i mean, obviously a ukrainian can get or an irish press and can get that legal residency much quicker than a person from a country originally that was actively uh, uh, in economic war with the united states one sided economic what caused by the united states as well? yeah, i think you're right. you know, there are certain countries that would, that would have their entire populations empty out overnight and enter the united states. if there were no impediment whatsoever. a certain countries, i don't think that the,

that us policy makers are worried about the entire population of france crossing our southern border. but they are worried about the entire population of haiti or cuba, injury to the southern border because they most certainly would if they could. and so i think that there is some kind of pin pointed of application of the even the legal visas for people from countries that are really dire stress. he took in the book about the appalling nature of us policy as regards their ability to say, oh, we'll go into other countries, tackled the roots of the reasons for the immigration and show how catastrophic, how that policy is. but you mentioned atm cuba and i'd say that there are populations the sizes would propose they want to stay there, but clearly have the obama administration accused of a qu, there at september 29. 1991 february 29,

2004. the police assassination jumbo drawers are state is guarded out by a bomb is goons. really, it's the other way around is that the us is sanctioning. cuba has an embargo on cuba. it's interfered in hazy, and this is the blow back if the united states wants to carry on like it does around the world. it has to budget in to give legal immigration to all the refugees from the countries who are being the stabilized by u. s. policy just to let them in, if you're going to go to war with the, if you're going to bomb iraq, say anyone in a rug who wants to come to the us, you can come because clearly we're doing this to save the oliver rock. not uh we, we only want to hurt the 12 people. well, you know, i mean, i hear that argument all the time that you know, we did this to them and so therefore we, we owe their entire population, illegal, entry of the southern border. i don't think the legal you or

legal for sure, but right now and, you know, those countries are across and you're legally and very large numbers. same with venezuela. but you know, i don't think that as a practical matter, that you can mean at some point the life boat fills up anyway. and you have to think be able to set some kind of a limit. those are policy to base that are worth having us, do we need to increase the cap on refugees? do we need to increase the cap on you know, gas workers? do we need to increase the cap on this data or the other way? far too many categories to list here, but, but you don't have to be a great habit debate. i guess my position is just that. that is irrelevant to illegal migration over the southern border, which is what my book is about. so you think that so you think they should legalize more? because right now the estimates of the united states immediately as of today,

these 1600000 more healthcare work is 1300000 in accommodation and food service employment right now is a huge labor shortage in the united states. so 2.0 is a 3000000 people you need right now. where's in your book? you're saying, well, these millions are coming over, well, why not just as legalize that increase limit, then you don't have to bother with all these expensive federal. it's expensive to the taxpayer services and problem solve. you've got masses of people who want to come in and you need people. you know, there's a deal to be made that if you need labor, you do what canada does and you seek out legal. uh, you use you, you open up to legal avenues to immigrants around the world, canada as bringing in 4 or 500000 a year right now to meet their labor needs, their labor shortages. but again, those are things that the canadian par argument and the,

the true jo government agreed to do. and it's part of the canadian political process that they did that. um, but the illegal immigration over the border is not the way to do that. no country does that anywhere. how many do you, what, how many immigrants view, what? because you're saying, you know, there are huge numbers that could come into the here us, how many do you want to come in? you have 11 numbers in the book. how many more immigrants from latin american central america do you want to come? that's not really my expertise. honestly. uh, you know, but i, i would say that if, if there's a, if there's a labor market demand and industry circle actually because they don't have a worst. i haven't seen any industries collapsing yet, then, you know, have to be somebody decide on what the number is. i think the united states is probably the most generous nation in the world for legal immigration, a 1000000

a year at least we bring in, you know, many, many thousands of, uh, refugees and uh, people who are coming in for a student to, to attend our universities and to, for, for exchange, these exchange of students, scholar, it scholarly exchanges. and that sort of thing. i mean, the categories are vast, of the people that we do allow and legally, i think the united states is pretty generous. um, but you know, maybe one day when uh, you know, of industry started to clash for lack of workers. then, you know, congress needs to step in and decide to lift a cap or to somewhere. yeah. those kind of going to say those kind of conversations internally being adding the chinese communists buddy, because they are facing a population shrinkage. catastrophe arguably, you say in the book, others are arriving from adversarial nations into the united states as iran, china,

russia, venezuela. posing the threat of espionage or terrorism, what proportion from iran, china, russia, venezuela, coming into the us poses that threat? the recipe and lodge and tears. oh, remember, you know the problem with having an open open southern border, where do you have a mass migration that's trying to collapse the system? is that you really don't know who's entering it's a the ultimate stranger danger. really? a lot of immigrants just before they cross throeder id, uh their passports in the dirt on the mexican side. and then they come in and just say, my name is mickey mouse, we have no idea who huge numbers of these people are. we had about a $1700000.00 ways just in the last 2428 months. i got a ways for those that we never even got had contact with. we just counted their footprints or caught them on video or something like that, but never caught them. but the issue there is course that we've got people coming

in from a 160 countries other than mexico in central america. really, the entire world has heard that you can get an over the southern border if you just process. and so the whole world is coming to take advantage of this really. right? yeah. but do, do you think spies normally come in through legal roots because it's like an added problem. i mean, i just don't understand what, what the evidence is that there's a threat to the united states of immigration, illegal immigration of a china, uranium mines and russians into the united states to spy on the united states and commit to or right, well, i mean, you're right, we, we have seen a lot of chinese spies wold up who came in through legal routes on, on student visas. and people who came in on, on a scholarly exchange for uses cultural exchange reasons and that sort of thing. and we're catching on pretty often actually,

but we also have have $10000.00 chinese nationals across the southern border just as october. and i, i mean, i'm sure you would agree see that? you know, why would you, why would your ask, why would your espionage services not throw one or 2 wins to cross that way? i think it's joe notes, a very good idea. i mean, the chinese government obviously said that those academies which are illegal, one full of spies, but of course now ukrainian immigrants can legally get into the united states. i'm sure you've seen the pictures of neo nazis in ukraine. what threat did they pose as they arrived in the united states? we've seen so many you as well for one thing, you know, again, the distinction between legal and illegal. if, if it's legal, there's at least a shot. it's not perfect, but there's at least a shot to do some kind of betting on them when they cross the border and further id in the door. you have no idea if you've got the ukranian mafia coming in,

or criminals who have committed a rate or murder or whatever it is in their home country. but you know, we can't really do a quick and easy uh, intelligence share with, with the government if we don't know who they are. and so i think that's the problem is you just don't know what you're getting when you cross over the southern when, when you have all these people crossing over the southern border. i mean, we've had probably about 200 people from islamic majority countries across the border who were on the the ice terrorism watch list. and thank god we caught those . but again, we have 1700000 dollar ways and we don't know who we didn't catch them when you have a border that's just, you know, wide open like this where everybody and anybody who crosses pretty much gets a pass in a you don't really know what their hearts are mines is that still a problem with uh, illegal immigration. and just finally what,

what is the solution to you using federal bureaucratic structures, a capable of processing all of these legally and protecting that border? i mean, the wolf, you know, many people thought was i, there was a perception when it came to trump policy, which as you throw in the book, reduced illegal immigration. but in actual practical matters, people will come over the border. how can, how can federal bureaucratic structures in the united states organize all of this in the face of the threats who just said, as well? i write elaborately in the book about how about the calculus and about how us policies actually were on the ground and play in the calculus of immigrants who are deciding should i stay or should i go in and really what the basic, it's not that complicated and it is addressable bureaucratically because how do i know this? because i interviewed the emigrants,

thousands of them who described for me consistently across nationalities, time, and geography. about what it really is that they're, that they're doing. is that what it is that causes them to pull the trigger so to speak. and that is, if i'm going to spend $10000.00 on a small or to bring the to the border so i can cross, i want to know to the highest that i have the highest degree. probably possible. then i'm going to get in and stay in to pay that money back and then multiples of profit by the multiples after that, either through a legal work or a be could eventually be coming, legal or whatever. but if i know that i'm going to be pushed back, i'm not going to go, i'm not going to pull the trigger. and during the trunk, peers have policies in place that really lowered the us,

that you're going to get in and stay at. his policies meant that you were probably gonna end up stuck in mexico for years, and so they stayed home. what do they say? they sheltered in place and places like chilly or brazil, or all of the 15 countries surrounding venezuela that, that now harbor venezuelans. and it's really that simple. there are policies that cause you to have to stay in another country. so it's a lot of it is about perception. i, i should say, i'm low, would definitely say there's a mexican dream adult benjamin. thank you. thank you. that's it for the show, the book over, run out, joe, biting the least, the greatest boy, the crisis and us history is up. now remember, we're bringing a new episodes every day monday until then. you can give it to us by law, so she'll need you if it's not sensitive in your country and had to add channel, grantee, hon. don't come to us and you and old episodes of going undergrad excuses the

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