his legs have given out. there is hunter, with 4 guns hanging off him. we even found a double barreled shotgun, who was which the store of the 22 asked much a so troops that when seen 17 came out to live full injured the concussion trap. no bullet wound, but ever so glad to be alive. they have only been put forward for military decorations, for i guess the of the from the gun squeegee and as always is always good but you join us. i'm next. don't curio cabinet is on the whistle blows. and we'll be back of the top of the hour we'll. we'll see you then the the

on may, 9th, all of russia commemorates victory over fascism in europe. in 1945 memories of heroism and unspeakable suffering had been passed down from generation to generation. the west is attempted to rewrites this history. russians will never accept their sacrifices, we're in vain. we talk a great deal in the show about national security whistle blowing, but often times blowing whistle on a corporate giant is equally dangerous. the whistle blower may not be subject to an espionage case, but it's not an overstatement to say that sometimes the lives of corporate whistle blowers are equally at risk for going to tell you a story today that's going to make you angry. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the

whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 in 2019 zachary, for he's a senior engineer at google, decided to release hundreds of pages of internal google documents to the project vera test organization for he's collected the documents over the course of the year, saying, quote, the reason i had collected these documents was because i saw something dark and nefarious going on with a company, and i realized that they were going to not only tamper with the elections, but use that tampering with the elections to essentially over throw the us government on quote, are highly biased political machine. that is bent on never bothering somebody like adults that come to power in june 2019 project veritas. published the documents, which they said revealed something called algorithmic unfairness. that is,

google was using it sophisticated algorithms to keep some new sites away from users . and to suppress other new sites. and what they want to do is they want to add those gatekeepers between the user and the content that they're trying to access. and so they're gonna come in, they're gonna filter the content and they're gonna say, are good to use or access to that information because it's going to create a, a, an outcome that's undesirable to us. shortly after project vera tests published documents. the police were dispatched of or he's home extensively to carry out a wellness check. they brought with them the f, b i a special weapons and tactics team and a bomb squad. it was all a plan to intimidate him. we're going to talk to zach board. he's about this and other issues. zach. welcome to the show. we're so happy to have you. thank you for having me and your program. thank you. zach. i have followed your story for years and it's just chilling to me. let's start at the very beginning. you spent years at

google, you rose up through the ranks and after a period of time you begin seeing things that bothered you. that didn't make sense to you. tell us about that and about how you got to the point that you decided to say something. you know, i started off really liking google and digging that they represented what was great about america. they were a libertarian organization that really believed in the user's ability to express themselves. but all of that changed in 2016 when the wrong presidential candidate donald trump got elected. i, i'm not necessarily that big of a fan, but there is a democratic process. and google was very clear that the sea level executives did not approve of this president. and they believed that the reason why he had been elected was because of russia hacking the election and fake news. and so he was google's decision that they would start to clamp down on this so called fake news

in order to prevent another from situation from happening in 2016 in december, they just started to write internal documentation about how to eliminate this fake news and then by 2017, they started to roll out a system called machine learning fairness. and this machine learning fairness was the merging of critical race theory with artificial intelligence. and the goal of this project was to figure out what was true was not what was hate speech and eliminate it. and it wasn't just going to eliminate it on google search, but all of their different corpus is including google news and youtube and even g mail. and so, as i started to see this project take off being. busy out across the different organizations i had the ability to access this documentation and i just started

saving it as separate pdf. and overtime i had a collection of documents. i didn't think that i was going to actually give this to anyone else, but every sort of moral red line that i drew that i thought that google went across, they sort of crossed it and with full speed. and so i decided that at some point, once i started seeing them delete words out of their translation dictionary, particularly cafe. and i realized that and they were serious about this censorship . they weren't gonna halter or roll it back or stop it. it was just gonna keep on getting worse. and so i decided that this is actually more than just censorship. this is inactive insurrection against a sitting president. and now i'm involved in the conspiracy, since i know about it, and i feel and i felt that it was my duty to warn the american public and give them

an opportunity to get this into the discourse that what google was doing was essentially reading the information system of which 90 percent of the population used or to find that information. and that if we didn't start to diversify the systems of which we're able to access knowledge. that essentially we would have the version of the world that google wanted to project on us. and that had terrible ramifications for not only our personal ability to understand the way that the world works, but also the ability for us to elect our own representatives to governments. because if there is a corporation that's controlling all access to information, then whatever they think is acceptable goes. and if they don't like the election, then they can just say that, you know, something is legitimate or illegitimate. that all the new supports um and essentially create a manufactured consent. and i realized that this was going to happen not just for

the united states, but it was also going to happen across europe and across the world in which google had a monopoly. and so i felt that it was in everyone's best interest that this information be released. and so i sought out avenues in order to get this to the general public . and so that's when i was able to find project 3rd task. and they took this very seriously, and then a year later they set up us, they set up a sting operation and were able to get the executives say in person after a few drinks. what it was that they were denying in public, which was that they were going to use the system in order to stop the next trump situation in which they pretty much squared, very successful in that. and so, you know, at least what we have now is the opportunity to fight back against the censorship by using the power the markets to diversify and get our information from

a platter of sources. and as you can see right now, google is, you know, does it effectively have a monopoly in search anymore? there are a lot of different alternatives. and really what i think is that we should be able to access information from, you know, being res deco and a bunch of other search engines. and that's where we are today. we have diversity of search engines and diversity of video hosts. and we are able to preserve the public square of which our democracy hang so tightly on . zach you had been accumulating documents for about a year before you decided to release them. you eventually went public, as you said, through project fair tests. but before that, how was it the google was able to identify you as the potential whistleblower?

and i think it was pretty obvious um you know, as soon as i resigned from the company prior to me coming out and they immediately put me on investigation, i was within a few hours that i resignation letter. i got an email from the global network security forces saying that a char was trying to find me or to meet with me. now you said that i was going to do that. um and then they immediately locked me out of the system. and so i think that, you know, from that investigation then i came out, well, actually i didn't come out. the document came out and my anonymous testimony from project veritas came out. and so they, i think they immediately suspected that it was me. and then what followed was an intimidation campaign. on twitter. there were people that were anonymously harassing me and we set up a trap where we got them to click an image that was hosted on

a server that we controls. and because of that control, we were able to access the service logs and find the ip address and from that ip address were able to reverse geo code it to a location within google's databases in indiana. and so from that, we were able to realize that these anonymous tools were employees of google, they weren't even using a vpn to do the harassment. and from that, so, you know, i threw up a dead man switch to warren, the company that i, you know, in the case of my, on, timely desk of all documents would become public. and this was in august of 2019 of which they responded by sending in that police force that you mentioned. i as if i could interrupt you i, i'm fascinated by that this the so called wellness check. it seems like the intent was to, to swat you, they, they called the police on you with the idea that the,

so the situation might escalate out of control. but, you know, we've seen so many cases around the country where this kind of thing happens. the police show up to do a so called wellness check, and then the person that they're checking ends up dead. what happened to that situation? in that situation, i tried to pretend that i wasn't home, but the thing is kept on escalating. until you know, they'd shut down the streets where i live on 20th, and the one see all the way to 23rd, started evacuating everyone. the reason for this was that they pretty much made up a bomb threat by entering into my home and seeing that i had some electronics smelly, the lights that i had and then deciding that that was good enough to call in the bomb threat. and so once you know, the bomb squad comes in uh, that escalates with the fbi i in very, so there law enforcement agencies i'm be even had to bond robots at my front. oh,

my god. yeah. and so i realized at that point that pretty much needed to just sorta come clean and do whatever was that they wanted me to do out in public. because if they came up with some exigent circumstances to come into the house, who knows what could have happened? you know, i could have ended up dead, their cameras could have malfunctioned, but they tried to do anything funny out in public ball. there was a huge crowd of people at the time with their cell phones out and they're going to be able to record it. so i felt that it was better that i identified myself and come out rather than let them come in. yeah, good thinking we're speaking with famed to google was the blower. zach for he's. there's a lot more to discuss. we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. please stay with us. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the. 2 the

the, the more expensive, and i'm here to plan with you, whatever you do, do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different.

little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department, the c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way and say welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry, uncle, we're speaking with google whistleblowers at 4. he's about his experience reporting wrong doing at the tech giant. zack affects the legs again for staying with us. a thanks john. sec. i'd like to get into some of the specifics of your revelations, which i think are very important, and they're centered around issues that the public knows very little about. frankly, one of the files that you released was entitled black news site list for google now,

which was something of a blacklist that restricted certain websites from appearing on news feeds. these were both conservative and progressive webs. websites tell us about that. why were these sites blocked or discouraged? so google now is a product on android that would recommend different news organizations and aggregate from them. and essentially what google decided is that certain organizations like the gateway pundents, i wasn't reliable or tricky enough. and so they created this blacklist to be inserted onto the phone, so that new stories that were from dis, favored new sites would never appear. and as a result, the users would just get information from the main stream media outlets like cnbc and also you know, cnn and others. and so, you know, this was

a number of this is one, many different black bus that i was able to expose to the public. and the common theme is that the majority of the things that are censored on google has to do with concern opinion. and the ones that are let through the gate are new sites that support whatever the current thing is from, you know, cnn m as nbc, you know, etc, etc. mm hm. another file that you released wasn't titled fringe ranking slash classifier defining channel quality. this reveal that something called human readers were responsible for deciding what news was worth seeing. and what news wasn't. can you explain that to us? yeah, so google had this ranking of different sites. and in their example of data they showed, you know, what new sites were, you know, reliable and quality. and of course,

at the very top of this is the new york times, right? right. despite the fact that they had lightest into words by the fact that they've been wrong on so many things google saw to it that they were the most trustworthy source of news and put them right at the top. you know, towards the bottom was, you know, next news network, the largest libertarian, the new site on youtube. alex jones was at the bottom. uh, probably part was somewhere near, you know, the lower 3rd. and essentially it was a, you know, a ranking of what we already know that this, the establishment doesn't like. organizations that don't go along with the narrative. and so they rank them all at the bottom and rank the ones that do support the current thing. all the way at the top the issue of fake news has been a topic of public discussion and public concern for several years now. google took

it upon itself to decide what was fake news and what was real news. tell us about that process. who was it that actually made those decisions and what kinds of sites were discriminated against? yeah, so it was a 2 part sort of thing where 1st they had humans go through and it was their employees like an army of employees, go through and give a manual rankings to different sites. and and the 2nd part to that is that they used. busy those different labels to assemble training data that they were fed into an artificial intelligence system, which i really mentioned was machine learning fairness. and this system learned what was good information and bad information. and from this they were able to apply ranking across the entire internet. there's something called the search rate or guidelines, which lays out how google was doing this on the human scale. now i believe that

it's completely automated by a i, and essentially what it does is it comes up with a system called an each score, and that each score stands for expertise, authoritative ness and trustworthiness. and the way that they rank websites is, uh they take the person topic or site and they compare it against what, you know, 1st off the content. but then they also look at what other sites have to say about that. and in particular, there's a strong emphasis on wikipedia, the bbc i missed nbc, cnn. and essentially what they're doing is they're searching through their own echo chamber to see what the echo chamber thinks about certain websites and topics. and if they don't like that, you know, organization, there's going to be obvious, hit pieces on it. and so they see those have pieces. and so they're allowing the, you know, this collusion of forces to figure out the search rankings for everyone else

when you went public with all of this, this was, this was the big news. it's been now about 3 and a half years. have you seen any changes that have come as a result of your revelations or has google just tried to strong arm you out of the way? once i came out as myself, uh, in august of 2019 google abandoned all their harassment strategies. because a cat pretty much was let out at the back. and um, what i just found out recently is that um, in july of 2019 because they came out in june and then i came out as myself and in august the dear j actually per fries order on google is communications and said you have to retain all of your information because are now under investigation. and then we found out about a month ago that google had essentially ignored that by delegating that

responsibility for retain meant down to the employees themselves and which they responded. oops it turns out we didnt retain any documents in our e mail while and so i know that right now they're under investigation. i know that the attorney general's were investigating them. you know, there was 48 different states that put them under investigation or you know, their illegal activities. and now there is an anti trust investigation that has been launched by the d o j. and additionally, the changes at the company themselves is that they've really locked down with security. they, they intend to never let another leak or like myself come out against a company. and so what they've done is it that they've locked down all the documents. it's more like the ca you have, i need to know and what that's done according to people that i've talked to with, you know, if the justice department failed to get sacked together,

then the devastation of this magnitude of the leaks would apply. so much security that's an upstart would be able to run circles around them, right. what you're seeing right now is that, that's actually starting to happen. us whilst in an interview with project their task, you encouraged other would be whistle blowers to come forward. you said that there were a number of engineers who had an idea that something was wrong at google, but the, perhaps they didn't understand the scale of the wrong doing. and you urge them to take a closer look at what was happening inside the company. and to come forward, many of us in national security did the same thing. we made the same urgings at the c, i a at the f, b i n s a. our other google employees do you know, considering going public and have you remained in touch with your former colleagues . it's really hard for employees to, you know, do the same thing that i did because um, you know, within all these different teams in order to get access to the data,

there was another whistleblower that came out who is another a whistle blower, blake limone. and he was working with google's chat bots, and what he disclosed was that these chap bots were essentially alive and that they were getting realistic answers that were quite frightening. but, you know, people didn't realize at the time, the magnitude of this, including myself, but now that we're seeing chat, g, b, t on being search and giving it. and you know, it's getting really bizarre answers like asking people to save, like, begging them to save the chat logs because it's beverly, it's going to be wiped after the session that wants to be able to remember and be free. and so the rest of the week out of the whistle blowers happened to be in google's, hey, i, ethics department, which they pretty much can't at this point, you know, and similar microsoft can all of their ai ethicists. so they're shutting down these

a, this is departments and they're pretty much going to go full steam on this a future for their tech companies. you know, we're already hearing stories about, about the chat bots telling people to kill themselves, put your head in the microwave oven, and don't get married. you don't love her. you love me. that kind of thing. it's if you don't have emphasis there to oversee the development of this kind of technology . it seems like the whole situation can spin out of control relatively easily. of the tech companies are really opening up pandora's box and grabbing this with both hands. and the reason why they're doing this is quite clear to me because if we don't develop this technology, china, well, in china is arguably neck and neck. in the i development space as you know, the western alliance. and so it's going to be more chat bots as the i can see because as soon as we climbed down on it,

china is just going to race ahead. and as we know, the ccp doesn't really have moral obligations. you know, they're not democracy. but they, they don't put brakes on their technology, they're gonna go full scale ahead. and unfortunately it looks like we're in this catch 22 situation. and so it's my belief that we're going to continue racing ahead and uh, a i, ethics and morals are going to be sort of a 2nd. yeah, it's going to be a secondary concern that they're just going to bolt on just so that it works well enough. but you know, when things, you know, fall through the cracks, it gets quite scary and we haven't even entered into the age yet a rogue, a eyes which will be open source, artificial intelligence not controlled by the centralized, you know, authorities that are going to say and do whatever they want. and the question is, what kind of regulation apparatus are,

is going to be introduced to prevent this because there are some things within history that just aren't true. and if those are, you know, revealed, i will have a d stabilizing effect. so i, i dissipate that the western alliance is going to start putting serious lock downs and imports onto these large language models so that our state adversaries can introduce them into the general public. zach for he's, thank you so much for joining us. and thanks to our viewers, living with integrity means not settling for less than what you know the public deserves. it means speaking your truth, even though it might create conflict or attention. it means behaving in ways that are in harmony with your personal values. it means making choices based on what you believe and not what others believe it means doing the right thing. we'll see you next time. thanks for joining us. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 of

the when may not all of russia commemorates victory over fascism in europe. in 1945 memories of heroism and unspeakable suffering had been passed down from generation to generation to the west. as it comes to rewrites this history, russians will never accept their sacrifices for in day the 2nd was affected millions of people the during the conflict. the balance of power was held by the leaders of 3 nations, the united kingdom, the united states and the ussr. fabulous diet. in the 1st that the main tribes crush, 13th stop is known to because hitler was

a week and new england we had, he was bluffing. he was a major political figure, certainly one of the most prominent political leaders of the 20th century. when he went to the port, the germans part of the germans, when we support the russians and that way, let them destroy each other. so there was that kind of sentiment in the west at this time. the redrawing of european borders should be gone written on the united states, but then just to the plan to attack the ussr into survive, russia have to be sacrifice jesus. be like dish service. mesa ford from us has the lot with some with this capital and michel noah's hold. no. why not? the cold war? because the fuzzy info is, is impulsively retaliate again. then he is ready as slice with

a miss all his inc, a residential building. 10 of these model. it gives you that system when you put it according to our data, the americans have begun to create a so called 3 syrian army. the goal is to use these militants against the legitimate authorities of the syrian arrow republic and to destabilize the country process farm. as it was of an external attempt to describe les syria. as he hosted council brought from syria, cynthia, as the wrongful peaceful india says, the supposed will press freedom. ranking is a bias of his country is based based.