you're still tuned into the conversation, your weekly alternative probe of political events and current affairs around ireland. i'm joined by our special guests, dr. mark humpries from ireland israels along with hamza tortis from the sapient institute. uh, do you see mark at as do you see the impact that it's had on dudes? of course i do. i look, i... "i consider myself empathic, the

the impact it has had, of course is going to be traumatic, if that's how they perceive things, i'm not denying the impact whether it's propaganda or not, so i do empathize from that perspective, but at the end of the day i already said, there's been five equillaven in october the 7th since 2008 from numbers perspective from killing innocent human beings, from killing palestinians, why the more asymmetry, why do you believe israeli blood is more is? more than palestinian blood, because you haven't even, you're not even bothered to address, no you, hold on, you're not even bothered to address that reality, there are five equivalent october the 7th inflicted on the palestinians before october the 7th, you're talking uh, no, no, first of all, just just be honest, you don't care about palestinian, first, you don't care, what i want for palestinians, you're racist or ignorant, one of those, you want them to be impressed, and you want them to respond to the oppression in the way that you want, clear, i've been clear my whole

life, what i want for palestinians is i want them to live in peace and prosperity, and hold on, for me, illegal occupation, hold on, for me the things that the the the fundamental thing that is stopping palestinians and has been stopping them since before they were called palestinians, which they named this emerged in the 60s, uh, that's not true, okay, well, anyway, what, the the the thing that is stopping palestinians from living in peace and prosperity is their own ideas, the ideas that are in their heads. now that makes this potentially come the opinions, the whole of the palestinians, you know all of the ideas? yeah, let me, let me, let me just try to make the point, which is in some conflicts in the world uh, you just have to fight, you have to keep up the struggle, you have no chance at all, you're being brutalized by some neighboring dictator, the struggle is, perhaps decimating your country. "if you give

up the struggle, you'll you'll just be decimated even more by the by the dictator, whatever. there are there are many, perhaps most wars in history are like that, you just have to fight whoever whoever is up against you. um, the israel war it, it, i believe is not and never has been like that, the the war between israel and the arabs and then israel and the palestinians uh is a war where if the palestinians modified their ideas, everybody could live in peace and prosperity." and it's harder to see on the west bank where there is me no agreed definition of territory, it was of unbelievably easy to see in gaza from 2005 to 2023, all the gazans had to do was stop and they had a solution, it was right there waiting for them for 18 years, but they wouldn't take it, instead they wanted to continue the war, they fired rockets at israel, which inevitably brought israel back to to attack hamas to do aerial bombing because sending in troops on the ground means

dead israels so they did aerial bombing uh they did send in troops i've met some of the troops that went in on the ground uh but they very few went in until 2023 because they cows well because well first hold on yeah no calm right first of all i'm calm i said they w nappies it's a fact first of all um if they go in on the ground they die right any troops that go in the ground die but also combat on the ground is also very dangerous for local civilians, they die as well too, it's just escalates, so so how does this actually present case again? you've mentioned some some untruth there, but how does this go against my presentation? we've shown intent and we've shown the actions that support the intent, there's no intent, there's no intent, no there, they said the ministers, people of positions of power, we have over 100 statements including the idf, a general, okay, the people of significant power, think tanks, having genocidal statements and the

dumb bombs, around 50% of of of the bombs are not even laser guided right, just to annihilate everything. okay, well let me let me say few things. okay, let let mark just let me say few things of the corbus, right? i don't agree with statements talking about amalochites and stuff like that. i understand anger and hersh and fury on the israeli side. i mean, i can feel it and i'm not israeli. i can understand that anger, but i don't agree with amaleki type statements or anything like that. so the the the what you have to look at is what's actually happening, right? so what's actually happening compared to those statements? so, for example, one of one of the first things that that... that uh then happened was announcement for civilians to get out that northern northern gaza right and get into southern gas, then you just bomb when they're evacuating, you kill them when they're evacuating, aero analysis has proven that, we've give the figures for which euro

uh made have given the swiss uh monitoring group, and they have given the figures of almost 30,000 uh palestinians killed, now to... to go back to that point uh the bombing of northern gaza, how can it be said that it was precision bombing when there were that many civilians killed? i just want to, i just want to get to the core that, do you believe that's just collateral damage or do is just believe that's collateral damage or how do we score that circle? okay, so israel sets itself the job of destroying the destroying a group uh that controls all the gaza essentially hamas so so it's an... unbelievably ambitious uh job, which is is never attempted before to take an entire territory and wipe out the the uh militant terrorist group that's that's in charge of it. now the probably every fact i say hamser

is going to challenge, but uh, you're providing no citations, no evidence, nothing, gaza north and south uh is um uh gaza north and south is is practically an armed camp in the sense that the the uh there's a tunnel system of several hundred kilometers, presumably you agree that exists, the tunnel system is going underneath apartment blocks, it's going underneath mosks, they found openings to the tunnels in in mosks and schools and in private houses, there was a report there that the idf said that every single mask they had searched so far on the ground and 'every single school that they had searched on the ground had either weapons uh or a tunnel underneath it. now you may not believe any of this? i certainly believe that's true because that is the way uh hamas would fight. it is the kind of moralogy that hamas would believe in, the tactics that they

would use, so it's an incredibly hard job to to clear out gaza, which is why they've started doing it sector by sector, they wanted to move the population uh uh down to the south, now they're dropping leaflets, they've divided the south up into zones and the leaflets are saying things like here in this red sector we are going to be, there's going to be fighting and bombing in this red sector today, move along this road into these green sectors, so now it's not very nice for people to live there to be tolds with message from the the enemy from the sky, get as your house and you may never see it again move down the road, but why are they doing this is the point, if their aim is genocide and show any army that would do this in in the history the world, but this is this is a red herring, this is totally irrelevant, the funny doing this? okay, so why would the gazans believe the idf when the idf have told them to move, and when they've moved they've been bombed, they haven't bombed them, they have the aero

analysis has been shown by independent entities, they bombed, no they have, well women, children, children, is a child a hamas fighter, well is a child a hamas fighter? well if you were saying is are 11,00 children hamas fighters? well hold on, it's genocidal language, humanizing language, our children fighting for hamas our children hamas fighters and are the are they are they guilty? should they be bombed? should we kill children? is that what you believe? if we know nothing other than it's a child then they're not a hamas fighter, if they're under 10 years olds, they're not a hamas fighter, if they're over 10 years olds are over 10 year olds being used by hamas. 'cuz i've seen plenty of evidence that they are as spotters, as runners, as carriers of ammunition, so basically that language is basically blowing the boundary between a comp i'm talking about, so you're basically saying it's okay, because of that we should kill everybody, is that what you're saying? well, if i was saying that wouldn't i say is rather than well, i don't know, you've said lot of things

without any basis, rather than you having to say, let's think about your framing, this is very important, the way you're framing it as if there are two state actors that are fighting each other, this is this is an' it's actually it's not symmetrical, there's an asymmetry, when you're talking about gaza that was left alone in 2005, it's it's still known under international law as an occupied territory, they control even the daily calories, academics have called it perverse, degrading and unlivable in many places, so from that perspective, the way you're framing it, you're framing it as if there are two state actors and there's a war, it's not a war, in actual fact israel under international law has no right to defend itself, why? because it's already in israel has no right to defend itself, yeah according to international law, let me explain why after 7th of october can explain nothing, i'm not saying that, listen to what i'm saying, should israel do them, listen to, they should stop the apartide regime, they stop the

illegal settlements, they should stop uh oppressing the palestinians, they should stop killing children, they should stop forcing prison children, the list goes on and on and on, that's what they should do, you want peace, don't be an oppressor, if you want priest, don't have a partide, there are 65 laws that discriminate against arab, israelis and palestinians, we're top, we're onto new topic every two seconds, are you happy with the apart, hold on, my problem with this... my problem with this debate is there a new topic that we're not directly answering my questions, that's why i think we have to dig into some topics and go bit slower, i'm happy to discuss all these topics by the way, but new topic every two seconds is a bit hard to coke with, i'm just challenging you do think we need to we need to stick with the the the topic, you i'm challenging the misframing, we need to stick to the topic with which the reasons why you're here, i think we need to stick that so go ahead mark make your which so so look uh uh the there's about 100 trucks a day going into uh in aid going into in food

answering the question hold on going into gaza right now the the the issue sorry if we're back to the issue of genocidal intent well the question is why are these leaflets being dropped from the sky not just sash but phone calls as well there's been uh several million text messages uh many thousands of phone calls because they they're much more humanintensive uh there are um uh accounts from gazans uh, one one of them was the caretaker of an apartment block, he said israelis w on the phone with him for two hours explaining who they were attacking, when, why his people had to get out of the apartment block and when it was safe to go back. now my point is, not that absolutely everything israel ever does in a war is going to be perfect and the that can be justified, uh, that that wouldn't be true for any war in in human history, people make errors and people get enthusiastic and people, misidentify and people do commit crimes as well, but my point is that there are too many

things that don't fit in with your simple claim that israel just wants to kill everybody, and we start off with all the warnings, didn't actually say that, i said genocide is is killing every killing everyone in the territory, no, but well like for example, you you you believe in the armenian genocide, right? you believe that the ottomans commit an armenian genocide, is that true? uh, yeah, sure, okay. but i don't think we should talk about that, i'm not saying that, but no, but i want to show your maybe inconsistent principles here, because there is no proof of intent for genocide there, yet you believe it's a genocide, also the the other armenians towards the east were untouched, so genocide doesn't mean even according to your own perspective, the risk of discussing it, they drove them to the desert, you're missing the point though, but they want to drive the garzans and they've been starving the garzans too, i'm just showing, i'm showing the inconsistency, is related to the points about genocide, you believe in a genocide, but you can't prove intent of a genocide. the point is you have

an entity, the gaza strip that that the israelis have full control over the water, the electricity and the food to the degree that they said they can to be only this many calories per day according to academics, so my point here is how is and how is that now a an independent state and your framing of that there is like you know... a symmetrical war going on, well, well, how come, and that's my point, so my point is, how come before 2023, if israel was so evil, they were providing electricity and water to gaza, how come, well, yeah, if they're so evil, but they were controlling it, but if they're so evil, why didn't they just cut it off before 2023? well, wait, hold a second, so they providing electricity gaza, yeah, but if gaza had its own, and that just proves my point, so you, you've actually proved my point, which is... doesn't have control, gaza, if israel's providing water, electricity, gaza doesn't

have control, gaza, so how can they flourish when they not have control? gaza before, hold on, gaza before 2023, of course it didn't have full control of its own territory, never claimed it did, what i claimed was that there was a roose for them to peace, prosperity, for example, israel, hold on, they weren't occupied, is no, international law, gaza is considered hold on, israel, do you believe in international law, just not new topic, yeah, you topic, you're making a statement that's just making things up. as to say hamser, it's a new topic every two seconds, we no, it's related actually, they are related, but we be, let's spend a bit of time in the topic and then go on next, what i'm saying is there's fighting an enemy like hamas is unbelievably difficult, no, but you're framing, okay, let me explain why this framing is all wrong, number one, i said, i want to justify the point i mentioned earlier, this is international law, according

to vali interpretations of an international law, israel is already an aggressive position because it's an illegal occupier and by virtue of that they have no right, the the idea i have a right to defend myself is, well you're already in aggressive stance right, so therefore the an aggressive posture, so and from that perspective, legally they have no right, now you could talk about the moral question, that's fine, but legally they don't have any right to defend themselves because they're an illegal occupier, and you're just framing as it's just hamas, not withstanding hamas and islamic jihad, they prescribe terrorist groups according to united kingdom, there are other factions within the res'... that are legal and they're using the international right according to according to the geneva convention and and international law to actually resist an occupying force, they're actually allowed to resist an occupying force, so my point is universe, so not in your universe, this is international law, yeah, look, i'll tell you what, yeah, what is it international law, are you allowed

to resist an occupying force, here, here's here's a question, gas is not occupied, it is occupied, no, no, no, it is occupied according to international law, even - because because israel had control of resources going to be occupied now for decade, listen, this is rhetoric, listen, according, according to international law, even bec, even not withstanding the fact that the israeli settlers left, illegal settlers may add, because israel had control of the population to to to a degree electricity. water and so on and so forth, it's still considered as an occupy force according to international law, so you can't say it's not occupied because it's still considered occupied, this is why there is a resistance movement, this is why there are valid legal factions, there is a resistance movement, there of course there is, it's not just hamas and islamic jihad, there are other factions that are trying to resist the occupier garzen's issues since 2005 are all self

inflicted, what gazans could have done was they could have chosen a different path after 2005. they could have said, well, our brothers in the west bank can deal with their own lives, we're going to pursue our life here, there's a border, and that's the way, so let's stay occupied, right? okay guys, so in all that's been said, and to conclude, how do we see, how do we now see, and i'm going to ask you force mark, how do we now see the two state solution and how do we move forward? okay, um, i think the two. solution is dead as a dodo at the moment, um, i say at the moment, the dodo is not coming back, but dead as a dodo probably for the next couple of decades, it was already in severe trouble in in the second interfader, i think the second interfada really killed off the idea, the idea of two state solution is that some border could be agreed, that israel would

exist and some palestinian state would exist, and that by doing that by defining there would be less war, not more war. now israel is fundamentally now believe that any such border, no matter what it was, would lead to more war, would lead to herrific war, so let's say some deal was agreed and some israeli government was stupid enough to sign up for some border on the west bank and maybe some settlements were kept and some were closed and there's some border, the problem is... "most israelis, i think, uh, would now feel that that would be another gaza, that then heavy weapons would be brought in, perhaps artillery into the west bank, rockets would be coming through 24/7, and everybody would be, all the all the uh terrorists and jihadists would be gathering in the west bank for the final destruction, the final war to destroy israel, it should be gaza times times

10. gaza was a try run for the two the two-state solution, it was it was..." car on gazans could have ignored israel, they could have lived in peace and prosperity, they could have enjoyed their lives, they rejected that and uh palestinians of the west bank would probably rejected too, so um uh the two states solution is dead, um, what uh, what happens now nobody really knows, i i had optimism before, not much optimism, but at least bish before 7th of october, i've no optimism now, um, "i had a plan that could be followed that i believed in, and i think many israeli people did or pro israeli people, but i don't think we do now, i i don't think israel knows what it's going to do when it." if and probably when uh later this year, it actually destroys hamas. um, it's not going to solve its problems on the northern border

and the west bank, it's going to lead to a whole load of new problems in gaza, where they going to be able to stop new terrorist group taken over, maybe rebrandish, so i don't think israel has some kind of answer as to what it's doing, what what israel has is it's an absolute... shock that hamas was able to do this attack on the 7th of october, it's absolutely determined that hamas will now no longer exist, except maybe in a hotel in qatar, but it will no longer exist in gaza, and as i think i said earlier, whatever we say, that's that's really its plan, but i'm afraid i've no hope really to bring uh, the only hope in this conflict, which i did mention earlier on, is the palestinians change their ideas. about the future and about what they want um, but unfortunately i really see almost no sign of that, and i see almost no sign that their allies, like like

amsa in in their allies in the west and around the world are even interested in getting them to do that, so uh, so i'm afraid there's nothing i can say, the the the problem can be easily solved if palestinians decide, we'll just compromise, we'll lose some of our territory, we'll have some kind of state, we live in peace, uh, war with the jews was a bad idea, we we'll put it all behind us like germans in the 1950s, but there's no sign of that happening, maybe it'll happen among the gazans, that could be the only possible thing, maybe after the terrible loss of their war that they'll be like germans in the 1950s and they won't want to to proceed the struggle anymore uh in in 2025 going forward, but that's a tiny little crum of hope, i've i'm afraid i've no hope to give you, i think, hamson. yeah, so it's interesting that we have othering language which leads to dehumanization and dehumanization leads to genocide, the palestinians change the ideas, as if we know

all of the ideas of the muslim, christian, palestinians, the kind of othering that is happening in your language, and also the satuty between war against israel, now war against the jews, is these satuties, these kind of propaganda techniques which are quite in in in fact quite devilish, i know you're atheist, i don't take it. personally buse you don't believe in the devil, but the point is it's a devilish ploy, because it is well known that the palestinians, muslims as well, in general have never wanted to fight the jews. in actual fact, islam preserved the jewish community. philip mansel's book, constantinople has a primary source of a jewish rabbi that was expelled from spain because of the inquisition. he said, come to the land of the turks, rich are the fruits of the earth, we live in peace and freedom. amnan kohan, a jewish. historian, he's got a book called world within, it's a two volume book, he collects 1,000 records of the judicial records, the sigil records and he concludes that although the jews had the

freedom to go to the rabinocal courts, the majority of them or a substantial number of them wanted to go to the kadi, the islamic judge because the new justice lived under the islamic principles, he even goes to the manushai and he says women would complain of nafaqa meaning maintenance of of of uh from their husband to the islamic judge and i could go on and on and zohar, you could talk about jihad, true jihad is liberation of people. zine, another jewish historian, he talks about the iberian peninsula, he says, thus, when the muslims cross the straights of jibra and the iberian peninsula, the jews saw the muslims as liberaters from christian persecution, and if you look at the treaty of the prophet muhammed upon him peace himself, he had a treaty with the jews, with the jewish tribes and he said they should not be harmed, and they they act as one body, this is unprecedented in history, we're not fighting the jews, we're fighting zionism, our job is take care of all human beings, to

give them dignity, and that's extremely important, if you want peace, they don't have a partide, you can never have, haven't we learned from south africa, south africa had to dismantle the apartite states in order for peace to exist, you cannot have peace with injustice, you cannot have harmony with injustice, you cannot have peace with apartite, so remove the apartite system, number two, stop illegally occupying someone else's land, stop growing this the settlements, for example the academic glenn e robinson in the death of the two state solution, israel, the palestinians and the arab world in the age of netanyahu says the following, the most important reason for the defeat of the palestinian national state building project has been israel settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem which have strongly promoted. been strongly promoted by netanyahu since 2009. the proclusion of any serious future withdrawal from the west bank was the reason why the liquid party put the settlement project on st

steroids after its 1977 election victory, the liquid the liquid settlement drive was designed to keep the west bank under permanent israeli control and had both political and strategic dimensions, the israelis, the government never wanted peace, and it's clear from their actions. also with regards to the two state solutions, none of the two state solutions were truly two state solutions, it was always a subjugated palestinian people always, as edward sight. he said that it was instrument of palestinian surrender, a palestinian versiles, the palestinians have effect in effect discounted the unilateral and international acknowledge claim to the west bank and gaza, and this he was referring to the famous oslo accords that was basically, you know, famously they thought this was a great achievement from the israelis, but in actual fact it was just further subjugating the palestinian people and they had to basically surrender most of

their land that belonged. to them and on that, i want to thank both you gentlemen for coming in today, mark, hamza, thank you, and i think there's a lot for us to unpack moving forward, thank you very much, thank you, thanks and that does it for another week, we'd love for you to join the conversation by sharing the link to the day's program to help us grow our audience across all our social media platforms. i like to once again thank our special guest, dr. mark humpfreys and hamserties. in the meantime, the conversation will be back next week with more investigation. on the analysis, i'm sean murray, bye for now, well i think a lack of. workers is the least

of israel's problems right now, look, we're committed to win the war, we're going to win the war regardless of anything, and i think that when people look at economics of israel, they want to make sure first of all we're secure city and country, so our security is economic element, if hamas thinks that we're going to end with them returning to power, they're wrong. the far bigger problem it faces is first of all, it's military challenge and the resistance on every front.

information about palestine abounds on social networks, many times without context. they do not allow us to go deeper and understand all the dimensions of a catastrophe that is dragging on for centuries. daniel hardway, chilean mayor of palestinian origin, opened. a window to palestine to understand in depth the present cause of the palestinian people, exploring its history and future prospects. do not miss a window to palestine.