thanks for watching "the saturday show." join us when congressman gerry connolly discusses trump and allies saying they won't refuse to accept the outcomes of the election. and i speak with angela alsobrooks, joining us to discuss her chances against a competitor who is outspending her, 10-1, tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern, here on msnbc. ayman is up next. tonight on ayman, the biden administration dropping its long-awaited report on

israel's were conduct in gaza, both criticizing and clearing its ally, join us for discussion with the congresswoman. stormy daniels testimony provoked trump to swear. what did it tell the jury? fumbles by the judge overseeing trump's classified documents case, has it helped him win his favorite legal game known as delay? let's do it. october 31st, the israeli military targeted the densely populated refugee camp in gaza. palestinians who were killed, hundreds more were injured. what you see on your screen is the aftermath. the craters left behind indicate possible use of 2000 pound bombs in an attack that the united nations say could amount to war crimes.

it is one of many horrifying incidents that would be documented for the world to see. you are about to see what we are talking about. it's certainly not easy to take in. in february, a massacre, when more than 100 people were killed by lining up for food aid. witnesses say they were targeted by israeli soldiers, something israel denies. of course in early april 7 world central kitchen workers were killed by a lethal airstrike when traveling in a clearly marked aid convoy. the israeli military quoted to misidentification. and two young boys who were killed in rafah here you see their bodies being pulled from the rubble. the u.s. has remained steadfast in its position that israel has not violated international law. >> the state department has a processing in place. as they we are speaking they have not found incidences where they violated international

humanitarian law. >> with questions about any of these legal determinations we have a rigorous process in place for evaluating these kinds of things and have not made that assessment in this case. >> this week the question was is the tide beginning to turn? watching president biden on cnn talk about those two thousand pound bombs supplied by the u.s. >> civilians have been killed in gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers. >> the timing was interesting, people were wondering, is biden acknowledging what aid groups and palestinians themselves have been documenting for months for the world to see? then the state department released a long-awaited report mandated by biden under national security memorandum assessing israel's conduct in

gaza. in a series of contradictions that have raised eyebrows across the political spectrum and outrage among aid organizations and legal experts. the report find finds that there have been reported incidences to raise serious concerns, and that israel has "likely used u.s. weapons in a way that is inconsistent with international law. it also said israel has the capacity to adhere to best rectus is for mitigating civilian harm, but "result on the ground including high levels of civilian casualties raise substantial questions about whether the israeli military is making an effort to do so. however, the report ultimately concludes the u.s. does not have all of the details, and that israel has not shared the information necessary to verify that it used u.s. weapons in violation of international law. there is a lot the u.s. does not know, because israel has not handed over. the report also finds israeli actions delayed or had a negative effect on the delivery

of crucial aid into gaza, and aid reaching palestinians is insufficient, but ultimately, they do not currently assess that israel is blocking u.s. humanitarian aid into gaza. clearly the report goes to great lengths to avoid making an explicit conclusion that israel has violated international law, and as a result military aid to israel will continue under this administration. so, what is biden's redline here in gaza? if it's not likely violations of international law, will it be an invasion of rafah. when biden said he would withhold shipments with going forward on rafah, the national security minister, made the statement that hamas loves biden. and when it was revealed biden did pause just one shipment over israel's incursion into rafah, a member of israel's

parliament made a threat to the american government, that it would use imprecise instead of the more targeted precise ones sent by the united states against palestinians in gaza. we are watching a test of wills play out here, and it is certainly happening at its most bold and disregard for american pressure on one side and an unwillingness to draw the line no matter how many innocent palestinian civilians have been killed on the other. joining me now to discuss where we go from here is congresswoman of washington, thank you so much for your time. i will start broadly speaking here, your reaction to the state department's conclusion here in what i laid out, what struck you as you read through this report? >> well, ayman, it's good to be with you. going back to the president's comments on during his interview we see he was clear

that we were not going to continue providing offensive military assistance to israel if they invaded rafah, and we can talk about that redline, because i don't want it to be so thin so you can't see whether there is a line there or not, but i think that was a significant policy shift for the president to say that and pause the aid, which is something that i and my colleague madeline dean led 57 of our house members and asking the president to do exactly that, but then we are confused by this report, which, as you say is a tremendous contradiction of things, and i really think in the end i am incredibly frustrated and disappointed that it muddies the water again by essentially punting the question. it says we didn't get the information we needed even though it says there are a number of instances in which it is likely that israel did violate international

humanitarian law, so i don't understand why, well i do understand, but i see that we are not utilizing the tools that we have, and we are not being clear. we are muddying the water, we are sending very mixed messages to israel, and i think the president made the right call on rafah and on halting that shipment of bombs, and he specifically talked about how u.s. bombs, it is likely u.s. bombs have been used to kill civilians in gaza. that principal call he made i had hoped was the turning point in this war. and i think nsmo does muddy the waters, but i hope the president doesn't back off of what he has said, and i hope this redline of israel launching a ground invasion into rafah, what the president has said, what the white house

has said, if they go after population centers. we have thousands right now in gaza who have fled because of the leaflets that were dropped, and it certainly seems like this is preparation, and you mentioned the strikes we've been having. this to me is clear indication that the president needs to do what he said which is stop offensive military assistance to israel and to be very clear that israel intends to go forward with this rafah invasion whether they do it in fits and starts or whether they do it all at once, and i hope we consider that to be a crossing of the redline. >> you bring up a good point, because you are going on how israel is going forward on this, how people have been prevented and no one will get out into egypt, even aid workers are trapped inside gaza. they are carrying out

airstrikes inside of rafah where we have seen people in the area killed, including children. what do you make of the ambiguity in the policy, and the language? it says there is a strong likelihood israel has violated international law, not enough to say that right. what would be enough proof for herself, for your colleagues, for the president? >> to be honest, i have had enough proof for some time. >> right. >> i'm not waiting for more proof. i don't think we can use a roundabout argument that said israel didn't provide us the evidence, therefore we don't know. but, this is a roundabout circular argument, it does not make sense, and the reality is we can see exactly what is happening. we have intelligence services that have been able to determine it is likely israel has violated international humanitarian law. so i just this has become a

quagmire, politically charged situation. the president probably has no one that he's satisfied with what he's doing, those of us who have been calling for cease- fire for months now, you know, we are glad to see a shift in policy, but it is not quick enough, then it is muddied for those on the other side. they feel like the president, that republican colleagues who have really taken to criticizing the president even for blocking that one shipment of 2000 pound bombs that are being used to kill children. the president was right in halting that shipment. he should continue to hold shipments. he should continue to be clear that israel is very rapidly even their definition of a significant, full-scale is what they use, full-scale ground invasion into rafah, he has to

be clear that is exactly what is happening, what israel is prepared to do. i hope he does not back down from it. i think he's getting a lot of-- i spoke to him in seattle a couple times on this question over the last 24 hours. i do believe he made a prince bold call last week, and i think he should stick to it. and i think we should make sure that red line and what he said is really what happens, because we cannot be pulled into a war netanyahu does not want to end. he does not want to end this war. expect a reaction out of israel, the prime minister of israel told dr. phil, i guess he is commenting on this now, he told him israel is prepared to stand alone. they've indicated the operation in rafah will go on. the national security minister basically said biden loves hamas and you had a member say the israeli government is prepared to use imprecise bombs

if america does not provide them. what you make of how the government of israel is responding to america? >> largest military backer and the disrespect showing the said and menstruation? >> i think it is posturing and outrageous when we are the largest military backer. what is necessary is for both hamas and israel to come to the table. i think the problem is each side is trying to make like there is a cease-fire from the hamas side and the reality is that's what we need to get to is a stopping of the killing and bombing of gaza, a release of hostages, entry of humanitarian assistance, that cease-fire deal had a significant amount of

humanitarian assistance going back to before october 7th and more than that, and i think that is the deal that we need to get to. and there is posturing, and netanyahu is playing to ben and other members of his cabinet, but he's also playing to his own political career, ayman. he does not want this war to end, because the moment it does the referendum on his leadership is going to be in question. >> he is defying israelis now calling on him to make a deal to free the hostages and end this war. congresswoman pramila jayapal, always a pleasure. thank you so much for your time and insight. up next, takeaways from stormy daniels' stunning testimony that left donald trump wholly exposed.

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prosecutors aimed to establish the encounter she was paid to keep quiet about did in fact happen. dennis described her side of the story in great detail including the fact she was "scared when she saw trump waiting for her in bed in his underwear inside a lake tahoe hotel suite three" trump's lawyers tried to discredit or undermine daniels' testimony attempted to paint her as someone out for money. as robin given put it in an op- ed for the washington post, her vivid detail testimony didn't drift into the weeds so much as it blossomed into a field, one that was so sprawling and wide open that there was no place for the former president to hide, trump was wholly exposed, and she is right, because daniels remained firm in her sponsor during cross- examination, this is one quick exchange of her interaction with trump lawyer susan necklace on thursday. necklace, so you have a lot of

experience in making funny stories about sex appeared to be real, right? daniels, that's not how i would put it. sex in the films is very much real, just like what happened to me in that room. with me now, for prosecutor and civil rights attorney, david henderson, and jill wind banks. david, i will start with you and your big takeaways from dennis' testimony. did she help strengthen the prosecutors' case? the ultimate bottom line. >> the ultimate bottom line, ayman, it is relevant, the chargers being brought against former president trump i would say no, but it helps them out with concern, it's not something they strictly have to prove, but juries sure do care a lot about her, and that was enhanced by the cross- examination, because i grossly underestimated her. >> jill, questioning by susan necklace trying to discredit daniels or undermine her, our senior legal correspondent

laura jetter laura jarrett put it as a start throwback to an earlier before me too movement, bringing a disparaging tweets about her, accused of making phony stories, all of that to raise questions about her credibility. did any of this help make their case? >> first of all, david, it was a very weak performance that really fell flat. that's right. it's not only before me too it goes back to the time when rape laws allowed to discuss clothing and whether she deserved it. daniels was better on cross- examination than direct, she was witty and believable. it is a sad thing we are in a world where stormy daniels is more believable, more credible than the former president of

the united states, but i think she did a really good job, and as david said it was necessary testimony. the defense opened with the sex did not happen, so that left open for prosecution to have to show that it did and in the kind of details she provided made it credible that she actually had been in this room with this man in his underwear. >> trump cursed under his breath when daniels described their legit encounter, robin put it this way, daniels accomplished what trump has taken, she made him look small to your thoughts and analysis on that? how does this land with the jury if at all? >> in terms of how it learns with the jury, i would have to learn about the journalists writing about it, if you look at what they are writing about it their opinions are divided. however the remark from former president trump puts in context what is going on here, and it

shows you how flawed the defense strategy is, and it's probably flawed, because it is strongly influenced by former president trump. the strong thing to do would have been to stipulate the sex occurred, don't fight about whether it happened or not. when you say she is a liar, a liar, the prosecution can come back and bolster her, that's exactly what happened. stormy did all this by herself. the prosecution didn't set her up particularly well, but they tried to pounce on her, she is already dealt with every insult and remark you can imagine that could ever be said about her, and she has prepared responses, which is what you saw them fire back with. >> trump off his lawyers asked for a mistrial claiming that daniels was changing her story and was being a rebel and irrelevant. what does this say about the impact of daniels' testimony on trump and his team?

>> it obviously shows they were worried about its impact on the jury, although i agree with david that it's hard to tell whether the jury bought into this or not. i think that it has been a weak defense. and there has been talk about the fact it was a woman attorney questioning a woman who was a key witness, and going back to watergate everybody said you are questioning rosemary because you are a woman, and that isn't at all what happened. sometimes the gender of the questioner might make a difference, and it is relevant. in this case i don't think there was any difference in the type of questions susan was asking than if one of her male colleagues had been doing the asking. they really fell flat, and it didn't work, and it would not have worked the matter was asking no matter who was asking the questions. judge cannon's decision in

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the federal judge overseeing trump's classified documents case has indefinitely delayed the trial, which was set to begin, may 20th, in a brief ordered, judge eileen cannon wrote picking a new date would be "imprudent and inconsistent with the core's duty to fully and fairly consider the myriad and interconnected pretrial issues." however the primary speedbump preventing a swift resolution of these pretrial issues is actually eileen cannon, herself. it is a point experts are calling her out for her that her decisions appear to favor donald trump. one of those decisions was back in march when trump's team argued he was somehow authorized to identify documents he wanted as personal records. cannon ordered both sides to draft jury instructions that treated the argument as viable.

in a recent msnbc op-ed stephen benton reminds us of the phrase that controversial lawyer made famous, don't tell me what the law is, tell me who the judge is. jill and what does this tell us about the case and ultimately for holding donald trump accountable? >> ayman, the first thing it tells us is something we have talked about before. former president trump and every case he is connected to is a hot potato. if he can do for being stuck with that you are going to. i think she is reading the tea leaves. each case gets decided, makes my job potentially easier, as does the election, so they are deferring the case. with regard to the quote from his former attorney at reminds

me of a line from a few good men, there's difference between paper law and trial law. judges can do what they want, and the defense is capitalizing on that. >> this case is one of the easiest to prosecute, the evidence is glaring, the amount of time trump had to hand the documents over, and the fact the fbi reached out multiple times was beyond generous. and bill cassidy said it was a slamdunk for prosecutors, but prosecutors will be denied the right to know how these 40 felony charges would come down against donald trump. your thoughts? >> david is right, it is very hard to get rid of a judge. and that is what is necessary here. she has made bad decisions that have no elation ship to what the law is in this case. she has refused to make decisions that should have been made months ago, and when there are pending decisions haven't

made those decisions. and the american right is the right to a speedy trial. it's for the benefit of the people, not just the defendant. witnesses go stale after a certain amount of time if you keep delaying. i don't know if she is hoping that the election will make him the president, and that he will dismiss the case, and that she is trying to stay away from it, she is not dumb, but she is really not doing her job, and the only hope you could have is that there is a rule that one of their jobs is to set a trial date. so her saying this is too complex a case, i'm not going to set a trial date, that seems to be something that could be subject, and that may have to be getting a new judge would be delaying the case, but i would rather delay it for a new judge and not worry that she will take this and after the jury is on panel, that it means that

she will dismiss the case and make it possible to retry him. >> david, there are petitions calling for her removal of judge aileen cannon, the case has garnered close to 300,000 signatures. is that level of action against cannon a warranted thing, viable? >> i agree with jill, is it warranted? yes, she is in terms of controlling the pace at which this case moves. set a lot of hearings, you can get issues resolved. do i think it's likely to have her removed? no, it literally takes an act of god, or congress, because the standards are so high i don't think it's likely to succeed. >> we have talked about how people in orbit stay there because of their willingness to risk their reputations. what is in it for judge cannon?

this cannot be an interpretation of the law. this falls really beyond i think the kind of range of acceptable interpretations from a variety of different judges. how do you explain her behavior? >> well, i think that she is looking for a higher appointment. maybe to the court of appeals, maybe to the supreme court. she's hoping her loyalty, which is the only standard for acceptability in the trump administration, or in the trump world, maybe that's what she is hoping. obviously what she is doing is not helping her to look good, and maybe she should be looking at all the lawyers who have been disbarred for their conduct, and the lawyers involved in this case, and in all the activities that led to january 6th is astounding with how many have been disbarred and convicted or charged with crimes, or pled guilty to

crimes. i don't think there is anything sensible in this for her. >> let's talk about georgia and the delay in that trial. the georgia appeals court has granted, signaling they will consider trump's appeal, that his codefendants request to disqualify da fani willis from the case. again, were you surprised by this decision? walk us through what it means if willis is in fact removed. >> i am somewhat surprised by this, and i have two level to you, i feel like the trump team fell into this resolution, because it didn't result from a clever degree of learning. they had a legitimate argument that da willis was romantically

involved with someone who was working on this case, she is paying money to his firm, and i have a right to determine whether or not she is using this as a means to enrich him, which she doesn't believe this is a legitimate case against my client. they didn't make that argument. they said they were dating, and that's bad, so she should be removed from the case. i think it was hurtful being in the spotlight that way, the hearing became a mess. a group of women in my church were steady watching msnbc. they were walking away talking about the salacious details, and you don't want that. you want to say maybe we made mistakes, but it has nothing to do with the way they were prosecuting former president trump. and i think that's the case here. but there were salacious details that the trial judge did give them a scathing opinion when he said wade has to get off but you can move forward. with wade giving immunity, what would you do that? it makes me nervous what's happening on appeal. the case goes forward, but really no one will pursue this case the way she will.

>> david henderson, jill winebanks, thank you for your insights. the united states has defended israel against the international criminal court. does it have a leg to stand on? comfort, and electricity... are forever in bloom. welcome to beyond. the mercedes-maybach eqs suv. known as a loving parent. known for lessons that matter. known for lessons that matter. known for being a free spirit. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer, fda-approved for 16 types of cancer.

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but if you do, making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. contact a doctor and learn more at notimetowait.com more than two years ago vladimir putin launched a full- scale invasion of ukraine. and according to an estimate from the ukrainian government nearly 30,000 children have still not been returned home and are being held in russia after being forcibly removed and taken there. is it is an act known as unlawful deportation. lester the international criminal court took a step towards holding putin accountable issuing an arrest warrant for the russian leader and charging him with overseeing this unlawful abduction deportation of ukrainian children. icc has the court authority to

accuse over matters of genocide, war crimes, and aggression, but both russia and ukraine are not members of the body. ukraine accepted the court's jurisdiction since 2013 meaning they have authority to prosecute crimes by russia inside ukraine. united states is also not a member of the icc, however, after that arrest warrant was issued in march, 2023, this is how president biden reacted to the news. >> well i think it is justified, but the question is it is not recognized internationally by us either. he has clearly committed war crimes. >> the president ordered his administration to begin showing evidence of alleged russian war crimes in ukraine with the icc. in fact, congress, the u.s. congress used restrictions that previously barred it from providing aid to the court for

its investigation into those alleged russian atrocities, and that marked a major moment with the u.s. taking a very public stand to actually uphold vladimir putin and his aggression to account and support the icc. now the u.s. is about face enough to give you whiplash. weeks reports have prepared icc is prepared to issue warrants for prime minister netanyahu and other senior political and military officials in israel. possible war crimes have been investigated for actions dating back to before october 7th. while we don't know what the possible crimes could become even netanyahu has reportedly said he is worried about being charged in connection with israel's conduct in gaza and israel like the united states is not a member of the icc, the palestinian state has actually

been a member of the court since 2015, and that gives the icc justification over alleged crimes committed by israeli forces inside gaza and crimes committed by palestinian groups, like hamas. it is the same principle that allows the acc icc to prosecute crimes by russia and ukraine. according to the bided biden administration the cases can be more different. a spokesperson from the state department had this to say when asked about the icc charges israeli officials. >> but the crux of this for the united states is that we do not believe the icc has jurisdiction on this, that being said we work closely with icc and a number of key areas, we think they do important work as a relates to ukraine, darfur, sudan, but on this particular instance, they just

do not have jurisdiction. >> how convenient. there's also been a change of tune from congress as well. last month a group of republican senators sent a letter to the icc's chief prosecutor warning him not to issue a warrant against netanyahu. in that letter, the group said any attempt by the icc to hold israeli officials to account for their actions in gaza will be interpreted "not only a threat to israel's sovereignty, but to the sovereignty of the united states." despite the fact no warrants have been issued yet republicans in the house are already preparing legislation to sanction icc officials as a " percussion." that is quite a difference compared to the cooperation lawmakers are pushing for just last year when it came to russia. it is a blatant contradiction, no doubt. a blatant contradiction to accept icc's jurisdiction over russian nationals but not those

of israel. and it is a double standard that has no place in international law that depends upon equal application of that law, regardless of the outcome that is expected. that has been true since the international war crimes, the nuremberg trials, were where nazi leaders were forced to answer for their crimes. supreme court justice robert h. jackson shared this message. " it is futile to think that we can have an international law that is always working on our side. and it is futile to think that we can have international courts that will always render the decisions we want to promote our interests. we cannot successfully cooperate with the rest of the world in establishing a reign of law unless we are prepared

to sometimes have that law operate against what would be our national advantage." you will hear from a former executive director of human rights watch, who is warning the president not sustained in the way of the icc. cc. ♪♪ no. ♪♪ -no. -nuh-uh. ♪♪ yeah. oh. yes. ♪♪ oh yeah. yes. isn't this great?

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united states is treating the international karmic criminal court. former executive director of human rights watch urges president biden not to stand in the way of the icc, writing bluntly "washington is wrong to accept the core's indictment of russian but not israeli leaders. i spoke with ken roth a short time ago. ken, i wanted to ask you about the icc, but i do have to ask you about this report released by the u.s. state department yesterday. in it, it says the u.s. believes israel likely violated international law yet remains eligible for u.s. military aid. obviously many aid organizations that have been in gaza, journals that have been in gaza, they all see what has been happening there and are blasting this report. your reaction to it. >> the report is ridiculous. even president biden himself has referred to israel's

discriminate bombardment. that's a war crime. everybody see the destruction, that's a war crime. bombing entire refugee camps, bombing people's homes. so there's plenty of evidence here. many groups have been collecting evidence, but the state department is saying in evidence there is some indication there are violations, but israel assures us there is not. so we just don't have whereabouts as to the validity of this. so recognizing it, but nothing more so the weapons continue to flow. >> the conversation about the icc, you know, i kind of talk about how there's a potential that the icc issues arrest

warrants for israel's violations of international law. the icc chief prosecutor, has not said what to charge israeli officials with, but what are the most likely charges here? how long will netanyahu himself could be charged? >> the 10 days ago was suddenly for stories that the icc was about to charge netanyahu as well has the defense minister and chief of the army. information suggested they had an insider. now karim ahmad khan has not said anything. i think it is clear the first charges will be obstructing aid, which is a war crime. there is large-scale starvation, essentially man-made starvation. so that's that easiest case. it

doesn't require investigations, disproportionate attacks must my predictions is that is with the first charges going to be. it will go to netanyahu, because these are his policies. and so, i think it's very likely, i think it's possible, the charges that have already been filed but are sealed, and they are waiting. >> what do you make on the u.s. based on media reports how the u.s. has threatened the icc if in fact the icc moves ahead with any kind of charges against israeli officials, this purported letter that was leaked from u.s. senators threatening the icc members of the icc, and even not just the staff, but even family members of icc staff. >> i think we should recognize this is not a first time that the u.s. government has threatened the international

criminal court. under the bush administration they pushed through the service members protection act, which utterly authorizes military force to prevent an american or national from being prosecuted, and we dubbed it the haage invasion act. sanctions were set, because of the audacity that could have implicated investigation that could indicate israeli officials. but here we have members of congress threatening the same thing. what's different this time is karim khan is fighting back. he put out a notice, saying this could be obstruction of justice, if you are threatening my staff or members of the court. and he could charge them with that crime, so i hope members

of congress and others pause before they proceed with these threats against independent judiciary institution. >> is the u.s. vulnerable to charges? we know the u.s. is not a member of the icc, but the state of palestine is. we continued supply being used in gaza even be subject to that prosecution or against the u.s.? >> when estate gives a state can prosecute. that is why officials are vulnerable, because they are bombing and starving palestinian civilians. now, the u.s. government, theoretically, members could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting war crimes by providing arms or, there is a pressing for that.

for sending arms to this united front, rebel group notorious for chopping off the limbs of its victims. he is serving time in a british prison. i think icc will charge joe biden? no, karim khan is sensitive to the opinion in washington, but senior officials would be vulnerable to charges of aiding and abetting war crimes in gaza. >> and i have to ask you about the potential for the icc to prosecute or potentially charge hamas members and officials. when terrorist organizations commit crimes against civilians and those nations? >> absolutely. in fact, the media is focusing on the fact netanyahu and other

officials will be charged, there's no way it will proceed with them without also simultaneously prosecuting senior hamas military officials from the atrocities on october 7th. absolutely that is possible. the vast majority of the icc's prosecutions to date have been focused on rebel leaders, and they are the only ones so far that have been convicted. >> ken rolfe, thank you so much, i appreciate your insights. before we go, we want to correct the record about a story we aired last week when discussing demonstrations at college campuses, nationwide. we incorrectly stated hedge fund manager bill ackman donated to counterprotest efforts at ucla. in fact he donated money to group that displayed video footage of october 7th during protests at george washington university. a new hour of ayman, after this.

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