>> he definitely seemed much more contained than he normally is. definitely i can see him nodding off at times. >> yeah. at the beginning when everyone was first setting up, he was swearing a lot then he went through periods where he was unnaturally still, which i found very interesting. >> unnaturally still. those two are the only thing in this criminal trial that truly brings a smile to my face. some very good insight from future lawyers hope harrington and allman bearing down to take us off the air this evening and on that very important note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. the end of tomorrow. tonight on all in. brand-new indictments in arizona. 18 people charged in a fraudulent scheme to steal the

election, including fake electors and donald trump is named as unindicted co- conspirator. then. >> all day long. we sitting tight in new york, the high court awaits. >> you have to leave immunity for the president. >> the president of the united states has to have immunity. >> will donald trump face trial for his attempted coup? and what is at stake for the supreme court? >> hopefully the republican justices that we have, and judges that we have will make correct decisions. plus, today's supreme court hearing on abortion rights in post-roe america. >> i brought up the conversation of what are my options? and they said well, because we are in idaho, there really aren't any for you. and as the campus protest over israel and gaza grow, the president signs for assistance into law.

>> history will remember this moment. all in start right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. we got some breaking news tonight out of the state of arizona. where attorney general chris base just announced a grand jury in arizona has returned indictments in the investigation into the fake electors scheme in that state to steal the 2020 election. remember, that was the plot devised by allies of donald trump to set false certificates of the national archives, claiming that donald trump won the state's electoral vote rather than joe biden this played out in seven battleground states with the intent to sow chaos and confusion at the certification of the electoral votes which was to take place on january 6th. arizona attorney general mays has been investigating the scheme since shortly after she took office last year. clear we are here because

justice demands and answer to the efforts of the defendants and other unindicted co- conspirators allegedly took to undermine the will of arizona's voters to the 2020 presidential election whatever their reasoning was, the plot to violate the law must be answered for and i was elected to uphold the law of this state. >> 18 people are listed in the indictment, but only 11 defendants are unredacted does include former arizona republican party chair, and senate candidate kelly ward as well as her husband, michael ward as well as current republican state lawmakers jake hoffman and anthony kern. all 11 that are named in the indictment are unredacted, served as those false electors, the people that signed and certified the bogus documents sent to the national archives. now, there are several additional defendants who have not yet been served and their names are redacted. the washington post reports their former trump white house

chief of staff mark meadows. attorneys rudy giuliani, jenna ellis, john eastman, top campaign epstein and former campaign aide, mike roman defendants are charged with the conspiracy fraud and forgery, which are all felonies. scheming to prevent the lawful transfer of presidents to keep unindicted co-conspirator won an offense against the will of arizona's voters. unindicted co-conspirator one is, of course, donald trump. now, all this comes as trump already faces, as you will know, 88 criminal charges across four jurisdictions. he is currently on trial in new york facing 34 charges related to election interference and business record fraud. tomorrow morning the supreme court will be hearing arguments in his immunity case were trump claims he cannot be prosecuted by special counsel jack smith in the federal january 6 election case against him joining me now with the latest is nbc news correspondent,

vaughn hillyard. i know you have been reading into this and going through the indictment, so just the first of all, just set up what happened here in terms of the investigation, whose office did the investigation, how long it took and what attorney general mays announced today. >> i think it is important for folks that may be saying why did this investigation take so long, why is it the year 2024 for this indictment finally came down? will folks should also understand that in the state of arizona, it was a republican, mark brnovich was his name who was the attorney general the two years following the 2020 election. kris mayes didn't come into her position until winning that crucial november election in 2022 point that is what led to this investigation. over the course of this year, this was a sprawling investigation that led to not only the 11 alternate electors, the 11 fake electors being indicted but also the seven under individuals here if we

just look at the 11 individuals, i think number one, when you're looking at an arizona perspective, there wasn't much effort to hide what they were doing they literally videoed on the summer 14th, then convened at the gop, arizona gop headquarters in central phoenix, signing this certificate and sending it to congress to hopefully, for them, be counted by mike pence on january 6th. these 11 individuals, with the likes of gop chairwoman, ward, her husband, michael ward and not even try to hide this point literally on december 14, michael ward, also one of the same electors, husband of kelly ward, posted a photo on twitter of his wife taking a phone call and him putting in the caption, quote, another call today from potus can't say exactly what we talked about but he told us to keep the pressure on. this was a very transparent effort that was playing out for the public pick another name is tyler lawyer. he is the rnc committeeman from

the state of arizona but he is also the chief operating officer of turning point usa, which is a charlie kirk organization. we are also looking at two arizona state legislators, a former u.s. senate candidate among those listed 11 but then you got the likes of rudy giuliani who is directly signed as convening the group to try to pressure the state legislator to overturn the election results and send that slate of electors to d.c. of course, also notably you got the likes of christina bob and forest epstein. the skills of the heart of the conspiracy that kris mayes, the attorney general, lays out. >> we were just showing that video before we should also note as context, we're going to dig into these charges here, that the notion that the fake electors scheme itself was a criminal enterprise is reflected, too, in the rico indictment in georgia were fake electors are also part of that criminal indictment and an investigation that has been ongoing in michigan, as well,

where some of those fake electors have been charged. arizona joins a number of states where the fake elector plot with being pulled off and after some investigation, grantors concluded that there was probable cause to indict for a crime with respect to their activities. >> absolutely, and at the heart of this indictment is the fact that the john eastman allegedly calls rusty bowers, who is the republican speaker of the house and after doug ducey had already certified the results and folks may recall the day that literally doug ducey, the governor of arizona at the time, was planning and hail to the chief started playing on his own and we as a present to that ducey had talked about how he had made that the ring tone for donald trump and as he was certifying the election results, donald trump was calling him in real time and he put him on mute but after that, we have in this indictment the fact that john eastman replaced a phone call to rusty bowers, the speaker of the house,

urging him to decertify arizona's election results and send the fake slate of electors to washington and then just let the courts handle the rest from there. >> rusty bowers, show his picture again, folks may or may not remember provided some of the most compelling testimony in the january 6 committee. he was one of the people who would testify publicly during a hearing very stalwart conservative, lifelong republican, very religious and devout mormon who talked about, the insane pressure that was brought to bear on him to do something that he said was just flatly illegal, which was to basically have the state legislature vote to send the trump electors, rather than the biden electors, despite the fact that biden had actually won that state. the charges here, there are four counts here, as i see them. conspiracy is the first count two, i like this, fraudulent schemes and artifices account is

fraudulent schemes and practices in counts four to nine are forgery those last counts having to do, and this is something that we have seen in other places, these individuals, plain as day, attested to something in a document we have access to that they sent to the national archives that was just simply not true. they said that they were the duly elected electors of the state of arizona, signed their names to it. >> they signed their names to it in they sent it to congress and the national archives and if you go into google, anybody at home can go google it in the document, they are online via the federal registry this is a, i think, though, where this comes into play is that the extent to which this even extends risk beyond the explicit acts of november, december, and january of 2020, in 2021. but kelly ward stayed on in her position as the gop chairwoman for years after this tyler

boyer, one of these indicted individuals who was one of the fake electors is still, to this day, currently rnc committeeman, two of these people are still state legislators and folks will recall a 2021, the cyber ninjas, and kelly ward was at the forefront of that. i spent days at the fairgrounds where, of course, ballots were being as part of the forensic audits they were calling it and kelly ward was there, anthony current is one of the state legislators who was a volunteer for the forensic audit and, of course, they don't get into this indictment here but it just speaks to the length of the investigation that the particular crimes here, christina bob is another name that i would know here who was just last month brought on in a formal rule for this current election cycle by the rnc trump campaign operations to be a part of their senior counsel for election integrity. and so the folks that we are seeing the names of in the

indictment, which is at the heart of kris mayes's statements, last year, that in order to send a clear message about how election should not be tampered with in the past, it is for the purpose of future election for so many of these individuals are still set at the heart, the beating drum of how arizona elections are being run currently. >> we should know, of course, the arizona election, '24, the most-watched in the country point carry like, of course, is the republican nominee, or she is running for senate to fill the slot that has been vacated by christiansen, is retiring. she still says election was stolen in 2020. she says her own defeat and 2022 was also stolen. she has been sued for libel by the chair of the maricopa county board of elections himself who says she is liable, she has basically agreed to not contest that and there is now adjudication of the penalty. this is all within this republican, very fractious republican party pick some of

those officials are named in this indictment just to get it down just about an hour ago by the attorney general. thank you so much. that was great. >> thanks, chris. appreciated. american courts spent 20 years of the u.s. attorneys office in d.c., she litigated the case against the wisconsin fake electors. she hosts a ms in bc podcaster was a senior staffer on the jan. 6 a committee and a principal crafter of their final report and they both join me now. mary, i think you guys are having a little time to look over this indictment, your thoughts on what you have read? >> well, it's very familiar conspiracy to make, having, you mentioned, been part of a team of lawyers that litigated against the wisconsin fraudulent electors and two trump attorneys and so one of the things i was looking for in their our case resolved with a settlement, which included permanent injunctive relief, the electors are never to do this again. the attorneys are

never to help them do it again, but it also resulted in a release of some 15, 1600 emails and text messages that show the genesis of the scheme and what i saw in this arizona indictment is a lot of the things i saw in those text messages. so this scheme was concocted in wisconsin by trump campaign attorney jim troupe is and his friend, kenneth chesebro. yes, kenneth chesebro who has been pleaded guilty in georgia, who is unindicted co- conspirator number four in this arizona indictment. he is the one who came up with the idea, he had the beginning as of the idea just five days after the election, his first email to mr. troupe is saying what about if an alternate slate of electors shows up on january 6th, throwing things into chaos unless the state legislatures then decide who the slate should before, we could throw things into such chaos that the vote would go to

the house and what that means is the vote by the house, under the 12th amendment, when there is no winner, means every state gets one vote, it is not all 450 and at that time, it was a 26 state majority and that would have meant the election went to trump so what i saw then, in this indictment, is the communications after mr. troupe is sent these memos that he asked mr. chesebro to write up to the white house. forest epstein then said, hey, can you replicate this in the other states? and that is what set mr. chesebro off, again, unindicted co-conspirator in a number for this indictment, i am certain, based on the allegations in the indictment, to working so closely with people like kelly ward and also attorneys in arizona, like jack, willing jack to make this happen in arizona. >> tom, when you worked on the jan. 6 a committee and helped draft that final report, did you think, when you are working on the committee, that there would be downstream effects of state

criminal investigations happening after your committees work? >> you know, i think there should have been these downstream effects. the bottom line is is a conspiracy that cut across seven states, right? trump and his co-conspirators try to steal or nullify the electoral votes because they lost the popular vote, trump lost the popular vote in the states. this is now the third state, arizona is, where they brought criminal charges against the co- conspirators picked though not trump himself and when i was reading this indictment, chris, to me it reads like a middle-of- the-road indictment. so in georgia you have the rico conspiracy case all the way up to trump is charged in georgia. in michigan, you have these charges brought against just the fate electors but none of the co-conspirators led them down that path now here in arizona you have the fake electors charge plus these co- conspirators on top of that, including a number of the people who actually brought, led them down this false path, except for kenneth chesebro who mary notes is an unindicted co-

conspirator. he is consistently not indicted here but they really delayed the groundwork for the fake electors scheme. on the subcommittee, one of the things i learned is how much evidence the co-conspirators were able to hide from us, they hid the december 6th 2020 memo. chesebro made it very clear that the tent of the fake electors had nothing to do with being contingent on election it litigation outcomes or state legislators flipping the boat which, of course, trump and his associates were rushing states to do that was basically there to gum up the joints of jan. 6 appeared so this is necessary for the state of hopefully criminal accountability in arizona and hopefully other states will follow suit. >> we should just note, and if folks don't remember this, that there were different incarnations of the fake electors scheme. the first of which i think you could characterize as, and extremely aggressive but arguably defensive legal posture to retain the possibility of a donald trump

victory if fraud was found in litigation proved effective the second version was just barely a bad faith cynical enterprise to essentially defraud people and to create the sort of screwed up situation, tom. >> can i just entered just really quick? the bottom line is if you go through this very carefully, the truth is that first option was off the table by the time the fake electors met and voted. the documents in the chesebro co-conspirators were offering and talking about, it is clearly aimed at delaying or obstructing the certification of joe biden's victory. this is crucially important because what has happened here, you can even see this, some of the defendants lied about it and said well, we just voted in case election litigation flipped arizona. now, some of the fake electors may very well believe that the problem is, we know the people who are pulling the marionette strings on them did not believe that and that is why this indictment in arizona so important to their going

upstream, going after some of the puppet masters, not just the fake electors. >> as we roll this tape of that meeting, if you can roll it again, the b roll that we have which is december 14, 2020, kelly ward is the one seated with the chair position there in blue. this is all public it is remarkable how much of the evidence there is a fair amount of evidence in the indictment. you got samuel moorehead who is writing we need to take some action about the 2020 election. i advocate in arizona legislator decertified the set by electors. i would hate to put my grade knowing that the electoral vote i cast was not counted they were doing this in public and to your point, mary, i just want to read again from the indictment, we have a workup graphic so i will go slowly one of the things that catch your on page 29, the indictment is, sort of in an email to the tea party phoenix metro vote email listserv. they say by the way, that to your point about they knew what they were doing, if

the electoral college doesn't result in 270 electoral votes for either presidential candidate, the 12th amendment is exercise and guess what? trump wins because the house didn't go the way the dems counted it going and republican is saved from the globalists. this is all laid off out, they were not like that is surreptitious about this entire enterprise. it is all fairly well documented, marian, that is not always the case with most criminal conspiracies but this one it is fairly public >> yes, and like tom said, i think it is possible that some of the fake electors in different states, at first, really did think that there was some legal authority. they have lawyers telling them to do this, right? and then that there is, legal authority but it is clear when you see the documents by, as tom referred to them, as the puppet masters or the marionette, those pulling the marionette strings. they all along, and it is clear in the documentation, knew this

scheme was just a scheme to throw things into chaos, to support putting pressure on the state legislatures to go ahead and just reconvene and send up a state, a slate of electors which itself would have been subject to legal challenge, of course, for them to pressure mike pence to count these illegitimate votes and worse comes to worse, like you just said, throw things to the 12th amendment but i will say even with the fraudulent electors, even if they might have some of them at the beginning thought, maybe this is a legit scheme as tom said, by the time they voted they did not get even, even after that, we had in wisconsin someone from the republican party flying out to d.c. on january 5th to try to make sure that that fraudulent slate got to mike pence and in one of her text she says i feel like a drug dealer, lol. >> wasn't that also were someone past the list to ron johnson to get to mike pence? and he was the one carrying in the center of wisconsin.

i was just giving it to the vice president. i don't really know. someone gives you a the block bag and you carry over to the vice president whatever it is going to be. can i just say this? tom, the other thing that strikes me. i'm pulling this from memory if i'm not mistaken. i believe in the seven states, new mexico is one of the states, someone really. two of the state, the language of the things they certified had some kind of legal hedge where they said something like i think pennsylvania and new mexico, i may not be remembering this correctly but basically if the litigation proved successful, yada yada, there is no hedge, a straightforward lie, fraudulent certification say we are the proper electors here. >> that is exactly right. so five of the seven states had no contingency language whatsoever for the fake electors. arizona being one of them. in fact we know there's a text exchange from some of the conspirators including michael roman and kenneth chesebro pick

roman, who i believe is indicted in this indictment and kenneth chesebro it was an unindicted co-conspirator. they are talking about, hey, should we include this language that basically is a hedge on the fake electoral certificates? and mike roman says f these people, were not doing this, or not putting this like that on the other was because if we do maybe people so the question what they are doing. that is what i am meeting by puppet masters, right? of these guys knew exactly what they are doing but that is not to exalt all fake electors themselves. some of them knew, too, obviously perhaps a lot of them did pick the bottom line is that in the trump campaign, the co-conspirators around trump himself certainly knew they were crossing all sorts of boundaries here, legal boundaries here in doing this and they were very cavalier in doing so. they didn't care about people downstream who are willing to do their bidding for them and that is really part of the story here, as well. i want you guys to stay with me. i want to bring in harry lipman, he served as deputy assessment attorney general for the western district of pennsylvania. i managed to physically conjure him here in my studio.

you know, one thing i wanted to talk to you about, we have these redactions, right? we got the 11 names in the redaction, using the washington post reporting and jenna ellis, christina bob, i think catching her first case if i'm not mistaken. so there is a first time for everything. how did you get indicted? you know, i think because of the weight trump operates and so much of the sense that he counts and will he ever face accountability? you can sort of glide past the seriousness, both in terms of legal peril, financial strength of all the stress that comes with being indicted of a crime. these people, it's bad, it's not good to have not just one indictment but now multiple venues for a bunch of these people. >> that's right, in particular, john eastman, ken chesebro, mark meadows is among them. it is not simply that they are in great peril, they are, of course, they imperil trump because they are people who could cooperate and really

don't have that many options or that much money and here is a whole new one and these are felonies in arizona, talking very similar to fulton county and, with the same kind of serious implications. >> chesebro as an unindicted co- conspirator but easement is indicted according to the washington post reporting. mary, where do you see a case like this going and the timeline developing? i think partly because of the strangeness of the timeline here and von hilliard pointed this out. kris mayes winning her election by extremely narrow margin in 2022 is the last race in arizona that was called starting this investigation, it taking the time it has taken, these indictment being in the house now. again, there is a strangeness, this reality to this whole thing that these crimes are committed in 2020 are being charged and being tried now. in the case of the new york case, it is 26 teen actions what you see as the timeline for this case? >> so, you know, it is complicated, i think, because

this is an election year and i don't know if some of these defendants are actually, were planning to try to be presidential electors this year. i do think this is the kind of case that is likely, yeah, that is likely to result in several of the, particularly the fake electors themselves, probably making some sort of plea agreement with the state. they will want to try to minimize their exposure to penalties and the others who are not, whose names are still redacted who are the bigger fish, the bigger players, that is a very different thing because they face, everyone faces political ramifications but there are people that are much, much closer to donald trump and as you indicated earlier, could do him much more damage and so certainly this state has probably tried already. we have people who audibly have cooperated like ken chesebro, that is why he is in an indicted co-conspirator. that was widely reported some

time ago that he was talking to the arizona ag i don't have personal knowledge about that but that was reported in the press and i think that is one reason, when you see an unindicted co-conspirator, that is one sort of clue. so i think that there was some efforts from the state to see if they can't get some of those other folks to cooperate. and then the timeline in terms of getting to trial and getting through discovery and everything, you know, i have no practice in arizona state court so i don't know if they have got judges that move quickly or slowly but i think it would be very quick to get a conspiracy of this magnitude to trial before the election. not that these people are up for election but before the election. >> it seems unlikely to me that it would be before the election but i do think the question about plea deals is interesting. i was trying to think also has a been indicted. also got his first. >> look, it has all been important because

electrodynamics is different from the seven who are the acolytes of trump, they are people who presumably want futures in their individual states and therefore they are not going to fall on their sword. the 11, the 11 >> including two state representatives. >> this threatens to upend all of arizona republican politics, just, that is a whole separate possibility. but in terms of their peril, again, to the seven and eventually to trump, an unindicted co-conspirator, the electors, it is the same in mexican, it is the same in fulton county, they pose national risks because they are not washington insiders. they just want to be able to hopefully get on with their lives. >> jenna ellis, one more question and stay here point jenna ellis, her name jumped out to me because she was indicted in georgia, she pleaded guilty in georgia, she is the only person i have seen involved in this entire mess, as far as i can tell, who ever expressed any remorse. she actually expressed remorse when she entered her plea in

georgia. >> well maybe >> especially in colorado. >> the bar is very low. but everyone else is like, bro, bring it on, we will do it again if you spring us. so she would be another person i would imagine you look for here for some sort of cooperation or play. >> definitely, she has a gofundme site this is a fair bit of money for all of them. some of them don't have it. so that also exerts greater pressure to be cooperating against the big seven and even potentially the big unindicted co-conspirator number one. plea that would be more, very shortly. mary mccord, tom joslin, harry mid-may, great to have you here, appearing by the fireplace. what is happening in arizona is, of course, not, as you know, the only legal issue involving donald trump that just broke the hour for the show. donald trump tomorrow will have

two sets of lawyers in two different cities arguing on his behalf in the morning he will once again spent the day in manhattan, court. she thinks it is too cold for day seven of his criminal trial on election interference violations and business record fraud. at the same time but that court is convening in lower manhattan his other lawyers will be in washington d.c. arguing before the supreme court as they take up his novel, one might even say desperate, ludicrous theory of presidential immunity. that is the idea that he should not face trial over the january 6th charges point they should be utterly preempted because presidents have absolute immunity from all criminal charges for things they do while in office a full stop for gas trump himself likes to put it even for, quote, events that crossed the line. i'm guessing many of you watching don't spend much time browsing trump's social media feeds, so it could be easy to miss just how often he posts, first of all, and specifically how often he posts about how he must have dictated like immunity from all consequences.

it is a real obsession and there is one metaphor in particular he seems to like to quote, president of the united states must have full immunity. you can't stop bullies from doing the job of a strong and effective crime position because you want to guard against the seldom seen road topic sometimes you have to live with great but slightly imperfect. okay. but then he keeps coming back to again and again and again in which he compares himself to a road cop i think without complete immunity, the president could do the job without presidential immunity, a president will not be able to properly function or make decisions in the best interests of the united states of america. without presidential immunity it would be impossible for a president to properly function, putting the united states america engrave an everlasting danger. he really is obsessed with this in order to properly function and do it has to be done for the better of a country. all of those are from the past four days. there is dozens of bees here's

the thing, there is an angle to this argument that feels not quietly -- quite fully appreciated. and not appreciated is the threat that is inherent to trump's argument? i would be very clear about what trump is saying what trump is saying, loud and clear, repeatedly, online and into microphones is that if the supreme court does not grant him total immunity and he is elected to a second term, he will order the department of justice to prosecute joe biden. that is what he is saying. that is the key take away, quote, if they take away my residential immunity, they take away crooked joe biden's presidential immunity. quote, joe would be right for indictment by weaponizing the doj against his political opponent, me, joe has opened a giant pandora's box point quote, remember, if i don't have presidential immunity, then crooked joe biden doesn't have it either and he would certainly be prosecuted for his many actual crimes.

trump is campaigning on ginning up a baseless prosecution of joe biden. >> if i am not entitled to immunity as president, every other president would get that, then crooked joe biden would not be entitled to immunity and when he left office he would be , i assume, prosecuted so if i don't have immunity, he doesn't have immunity and, by the way, the statute of limitation goes back six years and sometimes more than that. >> what is he talking about in the last part there? but again, a clear crystal clear reminder of what the stakes are here in the supreme court community case tomorrow first, how they rule on the merits of trump's ridiculous claim but also importantly, whether they will dither and delay as they have so far endured judgment of ex-president to allow him to escape his legal reckoning. the chief white house ethics

under george w bush. he simpered he submitted the supreme court on behalf of former national security individuals. still with me,,, forming deputy. let me start with you, and describe the argument in your amicus brief before the court on this issue. >> well, first of all, no president should be afraid of liability for crimes committed in office, joe biden didn't commit any crimes in office so that whole argument that donald trump is making is ridiculous. second, the concern here is that it is extremely dangerous to have the president of the united states be immune from criminal prosecution but every one else in the chain of command and the military would be subject to prosecution for committing illegal acts and also would be subject to prosecution for refusing to follow orders. so illegal orders, you'd be

prosecuted if you followed them. legal orders come you don't follow them, you will be prosecuted for violating orders this by professor claire finkelstein and i drafted this brief so sotomayor doesn't afford generals and admirals and other senior military officials explaining to the court how this concept of absolute immunity for the president of the united states would erode the military command, there would be no confidence throughout the command structure, no confidence in the orders coming down from the white house and we simply cannot defend our country this way. this is extremely dangerous to have a president, who can order the military to commit crimes, president trump's lawyers argued before the d.c. circuit that if you were to seal team six to take out a political rival, that he cannot be prosecuted unless the house of representatives impeached him into thirds of the senate, convicted him. in other words, the sitting

president of the united states could assassinate little rival with the consent of one third of the senate. we cannot run a democracy this way and the court, i believe, will understand that. the justices certainly don't want to seal team six parked outside their house every time they have a case involving the president of the united states. >> yes, and we should note, to your point, which is an obvious point that i guess i haven't thought of, of course, the members of seal team six themselves, of course, would be subject to criminal prosecution because they would be committing a crime. they would be in the hypothetical committing murder, it only be the person that ordered that, the person in the president would be insulated from that which is clearly ludicrous, and unworkable idea in 100 different directions. is there ideas that you are looking for us we had to the, aside from the sort of threatening minutes of trump's agreement on this, which clearly to me are like it is -for-tat , all bets are off if you don't fight against if you don't fight for me. but you are looking for the arguments tomorrow that are

going to indicate which way things are going? >> yes. so remember, they took 13 days when some people thought there was a dissent from denial being written to frame this question and this question is their own wording, whether, and if so, when, will i be looking for, right away is whether, in particular, the three justices on the right, of course, alito and thomas will be framing questions that have to do with facts, circumstances far afield what trump has done. i think there's no way that at the end of the day, for the reasons we just said, they will absolve him or give him immunity but will they state an opinion that is broader than necessary, requires a remand and another trip up and down the course effectively preventing this case from going forward? as always with trump, timeline, merits. >> there is a way for them to basically, cutely sort of slice the salami thin and say no,

honestly there's no absolute immunity here but this four part test that has to be produced about presidential acts and whether they are at the outer bounds and now back to you, judge to apply this test to the charges and then she would do that and that would be appealed up the appellate court and an appeal to the supreme court and in doing so they would , know exactly what they are doing which is you will definitely not face trial before the election, but would just be like no, that is just what we came up with. >> exactly right, they seem to so far have the view, they haven't always had a, trump versus anderson they ruled it the day before super tuesday. wanted people to know but so far they seem to have the view it is not our business to try to accelerate here and yeah, i think we will see, even if there is dissent of three or four, that could push it till june and if, but if the ultimate statement from the court, and this is what i will be listening for tomorrow, has to do with some circumstances, not presented here, for example, the bombing of an

adversary in war that they want to say that there is criminal immunity for, never having applied on this issue, that is trouble for the timeline. >> richard, as the author of one of these amicus briefs before the court, what are you looking for tomorrow? >> well the point that professor buckle stein and i were making to the court on our break and that the generals and admirals and the brief concurred is that you have to have the same standard of criminal liability for everyone up and down the chain of command, including the president of the united states. you don't have a special role for the president, whether it is absolute immunity or now donald trump lawyers are saying well maybe there's some sort of qualified immunity he could have. you simply can't have that. the people in the military need to be able to depend on the orders coming from the president of the united states being legal and being able to assume that their legal and the

idea that the president of the united states is immune from criminal prosecution is going to erode the chain of command. imagine that seal team six or anyone in the military is told to take out a building, abroad, and the thing that maybe the president political rivals in that building but they are not absolutely sure, what are they going to do? are they going to disobey an order of the president of united states and risk court- martial? or are they going to go ahead and execute the order. the members of the military need to be able to rely on the president of the united states being bound by the law and being bound by the affluent same law they are bound by and the supreme court cannot fiddle around with this and throw around a bunch of three or four part test and confuse everybody about that. but we're not going to be able to live in a democracy anymore. the richard painter, larry lipman, thank you both per class special coverage of the supreme court arguments start here tomorrow morning, msnbc at 10:00 a.m.

eastern and then at 8:00 p.m. eastern i will join rishel maddow and the rest of the team on trump trial in the supreme court hearing. club at first, the supreme court heard today that could impact abortion rights for millions of women that is coming up. coming up.

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>> the school has been the center of the media world for the last week over student protests of israel's war in gaza. last week, the schools president, after appearing before house committee had many of the students arrested by the new york police department, thrown out of their university housing amid allegations of harassment against jewish students on campus or at least near the campus gates where nonstudents and trolls have gathered to spill some truly. even as the antiwar protest spread to other universities across the country and conservatives like johnson last higher education as a ration of radicalism and senators tom cotton and josh cawley have even called for the national guard to come in, today greg abbott sent in the department of public safety into the ut off the campus. none of us knew for any of these conservative, cotton, your member, or the army to crush protests against police tell the in 2020. i have to say, i've watched this new cycle that the campus

protests unfold, something feels little odd because actual issues raised by the protesters which include the status of the hostages in gaza, israel's ongoing war in gaza, 30,000+ deaths there or how and when that war might be brought to a close, those all remain completely unresolved. it is 200 days today since october 7th, there is a lot actually happening on the ground it is worth focusing there, where millions of lives still hang in the balance israelis are observing the first passover holiday with more than 100 of the countrymen still held hostage in gaza for six months after they were taken in the hamas attacks of october 7th at one of those hostages, is really american hurst goldberg was seen today in a hostage video released by the military wing of hamas to be clear, nbc news generally doesn't show such videos, their propaganda. and because they may be made under duress, goldberg call his family have asked the video to have a wide audience. a message calling on the israeli government to redouble his efforts to bring the

hostages home. in recent weeks, as peace talks .com, said it cannot release for the living hostages, raising your set fewer hostages our lives than previously hope this comes along with 100,000 israelis unable to return to their homes since the attacks in october this week, also, the united nations human rights office is calling for an independent investigation into two separate mass graves found in gaza hospitals after israeli forces withdrew from them. and nbc new crew witnessed hundreds of bodies being exhumed in the city. white house officials say there are indications earlier this month, the flow of humanitarian aid has increased to gaza. but with an average of 200 trucks entering gaza a day to serve nearly 2 million people, the

situation still remains dire. the u.s. special envoy in charge of humanitarian issue say the risk of famine is very hot, northern gaza, and there is still considerable work to be done much of the work of israeli officials now revolves around planned offensive in the city of rafah you'll remember, everyone has evacuated from all the northern parts of gaza, there's 1.4 million displaced palestinians already in rafah where they sought shelter from the previous destruction. recent days, satellite imagery has shown the rapid construction of tent camps in the region with is really saying they will evacuate civilians to the camps as the defense proceeds. the biden administration is warning israel that the operation could have apocalyptic repercussions for those already desperate refugees. it is not clear if israel is listening. today, the same day that president biden signed the 26 dollar aid package for israel,

about half of that actually for humanitarian aid in gaza, the israeli government diaspora of foreign affairs minister, that is the person in charge of the jewish diaspora outside of israel, says the u.s. is growing weak underbody, at a point, if i want american citizen with a right to vote i would vote for trump and the republicans. which perhaps explains why republicans are suddenly so interested in student protests instead of asking all the questions that of been outstanding throughout this conflict from the very first day after the atrocity that hamas committed what is the endpoint here? and how many people have to die, how many is tolerable? how many tens of thousands? how many children? and how will the hostages come home and with the specter of even more mass destruction looming ahead, how will the people of gaza find anything approaching a habitable future?

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giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. to the supreme court that overturned roe v wade will hear another abortion case. this time the state of idaho is arguing that his near total abortion ban takes precedence over the federal law that wires hospitals to provide emergency medical care to all nations. this is not an abstract argument , to be clear, just listen to what the u.s. solicitor general, that is the person that argues for the u.s. government says is happening in idaho right now. >> today, doctors in idaho and the women in idaho are in an impossible position, if a woman comes to an emergency room facing a grave threat to her health but she isn't yet facing

death, doctors either had to delay treatment and allow her condition to move materially deteriorate or airlifting her out of the state so she can get the emergency care that she needs one hospital system in idaho says that right now, it is having to transfer pregnant women in medical crisis out of the state about once every other week that is untenable. we that is definitely hellas situation that pregnant people in desperate need of emergency medicare having to be evacuated to other states because their own state, idaho, abortion ban habits doctors from performing abortions unless they are sure the mother would otherwise die and threatens doctors with prison for violating that law. the idaho capital says an air transport out of state for president pregnancy complicated that one of the states largest hospitals, one in all 2023, 26 in the past four months. air transport, medevac, helicopter chief medical officer says that the pace continues that number could be 20 patients before the year is over. dr. derek cass is an emergency

medicine physician and regional director for women services and she joins me now. great to have you here. i want to just set the context for the law that is at issue here, which is the law that requires, it is very interesting because i had not really known about it. >> you shouldn't. >> it is a law you can't. >> so the emergency medicine treatment and labor act set the standard that if you showed up to an e.r., we would take care of you, first and foremost, regardless of your ability to pay, regardless if we like to, regardless of you showed up and you didn't have any insurance we would take care of you and stabilize you and then we would decide do you need to get a transfer? that's it. before that, people were being basically ignored at the front door, put back we like o come you don't have money. >> and bleeding, right? they would be bleeding at the front door, they would say, we will take care of you, we're

going to let you go to a county hospital, a public hospital and we're going to put you back in your car or will you down the block in a stretcher or wheelchair and they would literally be dying on the way this federal statute said no, that is not going to happen anymore anywhere in the united states took the entire united states will be safe for emergency medical care and that is what is at stake right now. >> this is not just an issue in idaho, we should note i will read from the associated press reporting about this. this is emergency room refused to treat pregnant women pick one woman miscarried in the lobby restroom as front desk that refused to check her and pick another woman and her fetus had no hospital the day after a security guard turned her away from the facility for complaints of pregnant women turned away from you is emergency room spiked in 2022 after a roe v wade was overturned. reveal. how do you deal with this as an emergency room practitioner in a state like florida or idaho or others that have abortion bans? >> what is happening right now is the states are forcing doctors to deny care that they

know how to give life-saving care and we're hearing the stories now over and over because are finally coming forward and telling their story before this this could have been happening and we didn't know. now we know what is on the line. we know the stories of women that are bleeding, know the women that are infected because they need to end their pregnancy before they can have a delivery and that is what is on the line. is having everything all day in the united states were abortion is banned in the supreme court arguments today, the conservative justices seemed interested in sort of -- the idea of a fetal personhood. there's constitutional rights, alito questioned the solicitor general about the interests of the unborn child under federal law and i want to play alito here talking about how the hospital will stabilize the threat to the unborn child, take a listen >> in a hospital must stabilize the threat to the unborn child. and it seems that the plain

meaning is at the hospital must try to eliminate any immediate threat to the child, performing an abortion is antithetical to that duty. >> first of all, there is no child here, there is a fetus and that should be clear. but what you hear as a medical practitioner when you hear the justice saying that? >> so he is put in a situation that doesn't exist. there is no saving the fetus without saving the mother and what he is creating is this idea that there is a conflict between the life of the mother and whatever emergency this fetus is having, the only way to save that fetus, to deliver that baby eventually, to have a full healthy pregnancy, is to say that mother point there is no conflict and he is making it up. >> and to the extent that there is, to the extent that there is a conflict or they said that there is a situation in which you have to end the pregnancy and perform an abortion to save the mother's life, that is precisely what is at issue here. understanding from the argument

, the way that idaho state law works and idaho state law works now, as not preempted by and tell is that doctors wait around until there is a certainty of essentially death before they can intervene. >> and they admitted today basically is that you don't get a lightbulb like, this is when you can act and this is when you can't, right? at the end -- >> it is a clinical decision it has to be impossible. >> this gut wrenching to watch somebody continued to bleed in front of you and you know what to do and you can do it because you are afraid that, a, you will get arrested for b, you will do it and it will work as it is too late. at the end of the day, it is time to stop interfering, stop letting politicians get in the middle of the emergency department and patient care and just say we wanted to do our job and save people's lives. >> thank you very much, appreciated. that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts now. >> good evening my friend, have a lot of breaking news this hour. thank you, as always. so they did it out in the open, and they were