a quick programming note for you. in just 12 hours, the supreme court will hear oral arguments on on donald trump's claim he

is immune from prosecution. we will be airing the full audio of the arguments starting live at 10:00 a.m. during the arguments trump himself will be sitting if for the third day of testimony. tomorrow night is a bonanza. we'll have special coverage of both trump trials led by my colleague rachel maddow starting at 8:00 p.m. do not miss it. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. just when we thought the big news from arizona today was the house of representatives repealing the 1864 bill, we now have 11 republicans in arizona indicted. it is 7:00 p.m. in arizona right now. alex. and there's 11 indicted fake electors there who may be struggling. >> maybe thinking about? >> what they want for dinner. >> maybe thinking about what they should do in the medium term.

maybe thinking not be on the stand. maybe being witnesses for the prosecution maybe. maybe, just maybe. >> and we all discovered tonight that in arizona law, coconspirator is written without a hyphen. never seen that before. there are 50 states. >> that's a sign of the times isn't it? how do they punctuate co- conspirator in arizona? we have seen the word a lot. sign of the times. >> thanks. >> have a good show. >> thanks alex. well the breaking news of the night is that donald trump's name appears in another indictment. this one in arizona. the attorney general has charged 11 republican fake electors and seven trump associates. a criminal conspiracy involving several felonies. the indictment says it was quote a scheme. artifice to defraud by preventing the lawful transfer of the presidency of the united

states keeping president donald j. trump in office against the will of arizona voter and depriving arizona voters of their right to vote and have their votes counted under the united states constitution. arizona constitution article 7. donald trump appears later in the indictment. in the detailed description of the crimes as unindicted coconspirator one. quote. defendants attempts to declare unindicted coconspirator one and pence, the winners of the 2020 presidential election contrary to voter intent and the law involved numerous other charged and uncharged coconspirators. the names of all of the defendants who are residents of arizona were revealed publicly in the indictment but the names of seven other out of state defendants are still redacted since they have not yet been served with the indictment or weren't yet served with the indictment. when it was released. mark meadow's name was redacted

in the indictment. but it could not be more obvious in this line that begin withs the redaction and says redaction was unindicted coconspirator one's chief of staff in 2020. the other trump associates indictable. the indictment says defendants and unindicted coconspirators schemed to keep unindicted coconspirator one in office against the will of arizona's voters. this scheme would have deprived arizona voters of their right to vote and have their votes counted. then voted for president donald trump and vice president michael pence on december 14th, 2020. falsely claiming to be the duly

elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states from the state of arizona. defendants deceived the citizens of arizona by falsely claiming those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. in reality, they intended their false votes for trump would have encouraged pence to reject the biden harris votes. regardless of the outcome of the legal challenge. the scheme failed when michael pence accepted all certified biden harris votes. they include kelly ward. the chair of the arizona republican party indicted along with her husband michael word. two republicans indicted as

fake electors. for fin who still leads a lesson in how much your vote matters, the democratic attorney general of the state of arizona won her election by 280 votes. tonight, arizona's attorney general announced the indictments. >> hi, i'm arizona attorney general kris mayes. let me start by thanking everyone for your patience as we conducted a thorough and professional investigation over the past 13 months into the fake elector's scheme in our

state. i will not allow american democracy to be undermined. we are here because justice demands an answer to the efforts the defendants and other unindicted coconspirators allegedly took undermine the will of arizona's voters during the 2020 presidential election. they chemod to prevent the unlawful transfer of the presidency. raised false claims of widespread voter fraud in arizona to pressure elections officials to change the outcome of a transparent free and fair democratic election. those efforts ultimately failed

when officials stood firm, followed their statutory duties and certified arizona's election on november 30th, 2020. these defendants deceived the citizens of arizona by falsely claiming that those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. in reality, the defendants intended that the false votes for trump and pence would encourage vice president pence to reject the certified biden harris elector's votes regardless of the result of any legal challenge. as you will recall, none of the legal challenges filed in arizona state and federal courts regarding the 2020 election were remotely successful at any stage of the case. that scheme failed when vice president pence upheld the rule of law and accepted all certified biden harris votes on

january 6th, 2021. the state grand jury made up of regular arizonans has now handed down felony indictments for all 11 republican electors as well as several others connected to the scheme. these charges include fraud, forgery, and conspiracy. they are class 2, 4, and 5 felonies. these are serious indictments. our office will continue its investigation into the efforts to illegally subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election. >> leading off our breaking news digs cushion is touch think. former timothy. and andrew weissman. former chief of the criminal division. he is an msnbc legal analyst. andrew, now you have had a

little time with this indictment. i want to put up on the screen for the audience as we discuss the list of charges. the sixth different crimes that include forgery. tampering with a public record. what do you make of what you are reading here? >> a couple of things. one, it is very similar to what we have seen in other states. where there have been charges in georgia and michigan. this was a top down scheme. and what i mean by that is that tim and his colleagues put together a vast amount of proof. it was added onto by jack smith which showed this scheme was happening from the campaign down to the states. not bubbling up from a grass roots level. that is why you reseeing fake electors as the arizona level and people at the campaign

level and into the white house. that's the second point. i was struck by on page 44 of this indictment. eric hirschman seems to once again be very much an important witness in the case and he is on a text message where basically, he and a colleague are talking about how they are not going to sign off on this because he views this as a quote in the indictment, certifying illegal votes. certifying illegal votes is what he wrote. and he said someone else is going to have to sign it and he says rudy, boris, and jenna. and those names are actually the three of the people charged. >> tim, did you learn anything in this indictment? that you hadn't already had a

pretty clear sense of in the january 6th investigation? >> a few details but not the big picture. the big picture has been clear for a while. as andrew said, this was a top down intentional part of the plan. the generation of these fake electors which becomes a predicate for vice president pence or for the supreme court or some entity to do something to prevent the transfer of power. so there is some color. there is some details of which we were not aware. we did not talk to as many people about arizona specifically as the attorney general has done. but it doesn't change the core narrative they were a means to perpetuate this multipart plan to try to prevent the certification and transfer of power. >> andrew, doesn't appear in

this indictment. he was indicted in georgia and has already pleaded guilty in georgia. he had actually traveled to arizona. to cooperate with this investigation. >> that seems to be the main reason he would not be charged here. he is actually cooperating or maybe i should say, at least cooperating enough. it is still i think the jury is out about how candid he has been. but it is otherwise hard to explain why his name does not appear and presumably, it is because he has counsel who has said look, if you do not want to be as tim and i used to say on the other side of a v, united states versus or arizona versus, you need to start

finding religion and join team america. it is possible that is the main reason you don't see his name here. as tim knows very well from investigating this deeply, he was in the thick of things. and, we know that also from his own play in georgia. >> so this meeting was publicized at the time. i think we have video of it where they allowed it to be covered actually as though it was some kind of real event with some import to it. we will show that video in the control room as soon as we can. there it is. so that's the actual meeting there we are putting on the screen. those are the indicted fake electors sitting there. the attorney general in the indictment stresses that they were lying about the purposes of that meeting at the time they were saying that we will

only use these electors in the event that donald trump somehow wins one of his legal cases in court that could then allow these electors to be used. the attorney general's indictment says absolutely not. they always planned to try to use these electors on january 6th no matter what happened in court. and tim, there is a last line that appears at the end of the charge against every elector she did not withdraw her vote. no legal challenge changed the outcome of the presidential election. that same line appears at the end of every other elector and what they did and it seems in reading it, that this attorney general would not be bringing this prosecution if they actually did what they publicly claimed they were going to do.

which was withdraw these electors once the election was certified for joe biden. >> exactly right. there was one fake elector to whom we spoke in georgia. he said look, before the super bowl, you present tee shirts that say both teams won. so that whoever actually wins, their t shirt is already printed showing them the champions. the outcome doesn't turn out consistent with the t shirt. and there were fake electors who believed this was essentially the same. a contingency. but the language that you just cited shows the arizona electors knew that really isn't tied to the success of any case because the cases had been filed. the cases had been largely disposed of. had not prevailed. and even after they weren't withdrawn when all the cases in arizona are rejected for lack

of evidence. so the theory here is there was never any serious contingency. they were meant to be an apparatus for mike pence to choose for political motivation the trump electors because of these vague suspicions of voter fraud absent any evidence. that is what makes it criminal. the litigation goes one way, we need the backup plan. the lack of a draw as the language reflects shows this was also meant to apply and be considered by congress regardless of the litigation. >> big difference between the georgia indictment and this indictment. donald trump doesn't make it into the indicted column in this indictment. donald trump made his debut in criminal indictments as individual one in new york and the federal indictment of

michael cohen in the stormy daniels payoff case. he is a coconspirator. what is the difference between georgia and arizona? only we don't have a tape recorded telephone call with the secretary of state of arizona. >> yeah. that obviously is a huge piece of evidence that georgia has. it is not clear yet why we have alter egos charged in arizona. but not the ego. the main principle person for whom this is done. the fake electors didn't do this on their own. people like rudy giuliani, the lawyers, they are all staffed to somebody who is the president. but it is unclear what the lack of proof is. for sure it is because they don't have enough direct

evidence yet against him. but it is important to note that i stress the word yet. these are state charges regardless of who wins the presidential election. whether it is biden or trump, it doesn't matter because you cannot have a federal pardon of these cases. so these people are going to be going to trial in arizona. what tim is saying so people understand this is no joke. these charges prove this is what you see in like petty banana republics. this is fundamentally undermining what it means to be a democracy. absolutely undermining the votes in these states where the idea is whoever won, that doesn't matter. the democracy is not going to apply. this could not be a greater

threat to this country over its entire history. >> we are going to squeeze in a quick break with much more on this when we come back including information reported about the grand jury that issued this indictment. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. ♪♪ [cat meow] —is she? letting her imagination run wild even though she has allergies. yeah. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. presentation looks great. thanks! thanks! voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices so you can reach today's financial goals. that one! and look forward, to a more confident future. that is one dynamic duo. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected.

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presidential electors allegedly plotting with additional defendants, then voted for mr. trump and vice president pence on december 14th, 2020. falsely claiming to be the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states from the state of arizona. >> former federal prosecutors tim and andrew are back with us. and tim, the attorney general also said tonight the investigation is ongoing. they are still working on the investigation. but when you consider the status of donald trump in this

indictment as an unindicted coconspirator one compared to his status in the georgia environment as a criminal guilty of felonies. it may be that when prosecutors are looking at the actions of a president while he is in office they feel they need something like that audio recording of donald trump, in which all of us can hear donald trump committing the crime. trump voters all over the country can hear donald trump committing the crime in that phone call. and that may be the level of certainty and public certainty in the evidence that prosecutors want to indict someone for actions that conducted during the presidency. >> i think that is actually probably correct. in georgia, the call is so damning. it is the president himself personally encouraging the

secretary of state to find the number of votes needed to win. we don't have that in arizona. we don't have as much evidence as president trump gauging with people in arizona. as much as he did in folks with in michigan, pennsylvania, and elsewhere. so, my guess is that the quantum of evidence and his personal participation, the approximate cause of the strategy the architect with eastman and giuliani of the strategy. more direct evidence of his personal participation. that might come from some of these people if they cooperate. the nature of a conspiracy is it is concerted action. people working together. some of these people say oh yeah, i talked to president trump. and he encouraged me to do this

or that. there could be additional evidence that comes as a result of cooperation and guilty pleas from some of the 19 people or 20 people that have been indicted thus far. >> andrew, we know giuliani is losing his license to practice law. he is a few hundred million dollar judgment for the defamation of the poll workers in georgia. he is indicted in georgia. how much pressure does it take for rudolph giuliani to decide i will tell my story? >> you would think the pressure is enough now. but he is not doing that. you have to remember in the civil case, the one brought by the two poll workers where they got about $150 million from the jury, that part of that case

involved rudy giuliani simply defying the judge's discovery orders over and over again. meaning both sides are supposed to turnover discovery and he didn't do it. the judge said look, if you aren't going to turnover the documents you have, i will tell the jury they should use that against you and they can use that as a presumption against you. you got the strong sense he is hiding something. he put himself in a real hole in that case because of his conduct. here he is facing yet another criminal case. and he clearly has some very direct evidence. if you go to the part that i was just referring to, page 44, there was a discussion about people saying i'm not sure what rudy is telling the president. that is something that maybe what is missing from the

arizona case. what is eastman specifically telling the president? what is rudy giuliani telling the president because lawrence as you said, the differences between a contingent elector scheme and you can have a real contingent elector scheme, but not a fake elector scheme. and so, that may be part of the issue that they just don't have that piece nailed down yet. >> so this reporting from politico about the grand jury that conducted this investigation. it says a witness who testified to the grand jury told politico the grand juries appeared to come from a mix of political backgrounds. some asked questions that suggested they sympathized. regardless of the politics, the witness described the jurors on the whole as energetic and

proactive. driving substantial lines of questioning while prosecutors seemed more focused on nuts and bolts effort. tim sounds like an arizona grand jury. >> lawrence, that's america. that is how our system works. it is regular people summoned for grand jury service. they go to work every day. and they get this thing in the mail that tells them to show up. they are not professionals, part of the deep state. this is democracy at its best. it gives authority to regular folks. it is what is happening. for that reason, i think these regular people's decisions have the potential to move the needle of public opinion about these same facts in a way the retelling of the select

committee or the media or others may not. republicans, democrats. from different parts of arizona. they put that aside and do their job. >> another day, another indictment. tim, thank you very much for joiningous discussion. andrew, stay with us for our discussion of the supreme court. tomorrow the supreme court will hear arguments on donald trump's claim that he has absolute criminal immunity for any crimes he committed while president. including the crimes that the supreme court should be reading before they go to the hearing tomorrow. andrew has already written the questions the justices should be asking tomorrow and he will give us those questions next. give us those questions next.

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it claiming criminal immunity for any and all crimes he may have committed while president on monday. donald trump posted this on social media about the criminal prosecutions he is facing. this is in no way what the founders had in mind. legal experts and scholars have stated that the president must have full presidential immunity. donald trump never mentions any of the founders who believed that or any of the so-called scholars who believe it. 15 distinguished historians submitted a brief arguing that the founders never intended for the president to be immune to criminal prosecution. the historians say there is no evidence in the extensive historical record that any of the framers believed former president should be immune from criminal prosecution. immunity for the crimes here alleged would be most abhorrent to the framers because immunity would upset the constitutional scheme and aid the president in overriding the people's power

over him. the framers would also have been appalled that former president trump despite having left office seeks permanent immunity. and drew weissman is back with us. andrew, the one thing you didn't want, if you are the trump lawyers going into the supreme court tomorrow is another indictment tonight. describing a criminal conspiracy where donald trump is unindicted coconspirator one and could at some point be indicted. but, you have written and published questions for the supreme court tomorrow. and i want to go straight to question number eight that you wrote before this indictment came out. how would organizing electors involve official acts of a president? that sounds like a good place to begin.

>> it does. so, you know, we tried to. wonderful brilliant man. so he should really take the lion's share of the credit for this. we divided it into two buckets. the one you wrote is related to the substance and there is no substance to the claim here. if the supreme court were to decide that the president has absolute immunity, we can all pack up and go home. we will not live in a democracy. we maybe have the delusion we are. but we will not be in one. i do not see that happening. the main issue tomorrow is timeing the. it is all about the fact there is a stay in place right now that the supreme court has the ability to lift tomorrow. they can hear argument and they are capable of saying you know what? opinion to follow. but we are lifting the state so the district court can go on her business. and there is every reason to do

that. because one of the questions we ask is opposed to donald trump's lawyers, the following, you say that you are immune from criminal prosecution. and you say that this criminal prosecution is something as onerous, something you shouldn't be laboring under. you say the gag order in this case is hurting you in terms of your speech and running for office. so don't you have ever interest in having us decide this case quickly? what possible reason, legitimate reason do you have for us to delay a ruling on this case? because there really is no good answer to that question. and because i think there is no way that you will have five justices say that there is immunity in this case for these charges, there is no reason for the state to continue one day longer. the stay in effect is giving donald trump the immunity he seeks even if the supreme court

later says presidents are not immune. it is the stay that is actually resulting in this president being immune. >> because it is the stay that is actually delaying the trial in the case and as long as that stay is in place, the trial is frozen. i want to go to another question you have here that i'm really hopeing to hear in the supreme court tomorrow. it is so great. it is number 10. it says if richard nixon had ordered the fbi instead of the so-called plumbers to break into daniel's psychiatrist office, would nixon have been immune from prosecution? the nixon plumbers were not official government operators. and the trump theory of the case is anything the president does in his official capacity cannot possibly be a crime. that is how you say, they are

saying if nixon had ordered the fbi to do it and the fbi did it, there would have been no crime. >> it is so preposterous what he is saying. the other questions we have are just essentially doing a goose gander which is so, if what you are saying is true, joseph biden could decide that if you would be entitled to order the assassination of a political rival are you saying he can order the assassination of a political rival? if you could seize election machines because you think there is fraud in the election, are you saying he can do it? this is one where it is even justices. the outrageous fact that thomas is going to sit on this case tomorrow. and they cannot will not stomach the idea of a blanket immunity.

they may decide there is some small area which maybe a president is immune. foreign relations. something exclusively or almost exclusively within his province but it is hard to see it would be in this case with these charges. >> andrew, thank you very much for joining us tonight. we'll be listening to the court tomorrow. and a programming note. andrew weissman and neil will join us in studio tomorrow at this hour. after we have all heard the oral arguments of the supreme court. msnbc's coverage of the arguments start at 10:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow and tomorrow night. i will join rachel maddow for a special prime time coverage of the hearing starting at 8:00 p.m. that will go on two hours before the last word comes on 10:00 p.m. coming up, president joe biden got an early endorsement from the construction worker's union. the endorsement says that joe biden has done more to

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construction workers of north america's building trades unions. >> folks, when i think climate, i think jobs, i think union jobs, good paying jobs that don't require a college degree. we are attracting nearly $700 billion in private sector investment, advanced manufacturing, semiconductors and clean energy and so much more here in america creating tens of thousands of good paying jobs, building trade jobs. the construction of factories is more than doubled in our administration. meanwhile, donald trump still thinks windmills cause cancer. that's what he said. by the way, remember when he was trying to deal with covid

and said just inject a little bleach in your veins? he missed. all went to his hair. tom promised infrastructure. i tell you what, it took four years, he never built anything, nothing. i'm serious. are you surprised? you are the best in the world. you know you had my back in 2020 and because of you i'm standing here as president of the united states of america, because of you. that's a fact. because of you, in 2024, we are going to make donald trump a loser again. >> in a statement in north america's buildings trades union says, north america's building trades union can honestly say no elected

official has shown our members and their families more respect than president joe biden. through his policies and his personal, president biden has demonstrated his like laser -like focus on not only been rebuilding our nations infrastructure and manufacturing sector, but rebuilding the american middle class itself, and in a newly released and, the unions president mcgarvey explains why the union opposes donald trump. >> you are promising america tonight you would never abuse power is retribution against anybody. >> except from day one. >> donald trump, he is not a good man. he's not a good person. he does not care about anybody in this world except donald trump. that's it. that's all. now, he's looking to get in that position again to exert revenge on people. i go all the way back to the 80s with donald trump on him

trying to get his mug on page six of the new york post. the only difference between the donald trump of the 80s and the donald trump of today as he feels totally free to let his dark side out, and his dark side is very dark and very dangerous for this country. we can't let our democracy that we've worked for and cherished disintegrate with the wrong leader at the wrong time. i can tell you that he personally committed to me that he was going to get our pensions fixed. he understood who was affected by these pensions. he assured me i'm the president of the united states, i'll just call mitch. i'll tell him to put it in the bill. is everybody going to love me? if you fix the pensioner of it is gone love you. well, that was wasted breath.

there were lots of other things put in that bill. there were tax cuts put in that bill for rich people. donald trump promised infrastructure every year. >> infrastructure is the easiest of all. >> donald trump was not interested in any policy that actually goes along with being president of the united states. trump was interested in the pomp and circumstance, the plane, the helicopter, it's all about him. donald trump is incapable of running anything, let alone the most powerful country in the history of the world, and god help us if he gets anywhere near that white house in the future. >> turning to jimmy williams junior now, and president of the national union of painters and allied trades, and affiliates of the north american building trades unions. thank you for joining us tonight. you were there today for the big endorsement. you have four years of donald trump with no infrastructure whatsoever. joe biden gets in, delivers on the infrastructure bill. i can't think of anything more important to your unions the work that comes from that infrastructure bill.

>> thank you for having me, and it is not just the infrastructure bill that president biden and the biden- harris administration is done for working people. you heard from president mcgarvey talking about pension relief, too. that is truly something that was life-changing for thousands and thousands of union workers in this country, and it was also the chips and science built on the i.r.a. that are creating jobs currently right now. good middle-class jobs for working people. >> i want to go back to the pensions bill for a moment, because we saw president biden in florida the other day and spontaneously he was walking by someone. the guy said to him you save my pension. explain the challenge that people working in these unions had with their pensions that needed to be solved. >> first off, president trump

did nothing to save his pension. president biden did. number one. number two, working people in the pension system has been exposed by corporate greed. in 2008, the crush of our economy impacted millions of working people's pensions, and the relief that was given to union members and their pensions during the biden- harris administration, it literally saved and changed lives. we have a pension fund in our own union that was based in southern california that needed relief, and we had workers -- workers, not corporate owners and not ceos -- get bailed out in the american rescue plan and get 15 years of missed pension payments paid back to them. that is what it looks like to build an economy through the middle class and not from the top down. >> do the workers know who did

that? >> listen, we -- that is the whole reason that our unions came together to horse president biden today, and we have a duty to tell our members the truth and that is what we are doing. we have started now and we are going to continue through election day to tell our members the truth, because donald trump lied to them. when he promised infrastructure, it never happened. when he promised to help bail out workers pensions, it never happened, but under a biden- harris administration, it did. >> jimmy williams junior, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> thank you. we will be right back. nk you. we will be right back. stop! save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya helps you choose the right amounts

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