surveillance or the possibility of being recognized, they say. they like using the mask so people don't recognize them. their faces aren't recorded. at night, what the students experience are drones and helicopters flying overhead. at one point last night students said that a drone was flying over them 15 feet off the ground. that's been very unsettlings. it encouragd them to wear masks and sunglasses. the students say that's what they feel they need to do to stay safe. >> why do they think they need to protect their identity? i will get that question answered on another day. antonia hylton, thank you. that's it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's hump day. doesn't it feel like an 11-day

week? it's not. it's only wednesday. it's 4:00 in new york. we have had two days of testimony in the first criminal trial of an american ex-president. we have learned so much. we have heard extraordinary details of a conspiracy to interfere in a presidential election. the prosecution's first witness, former "national enquirer" ceo david pecker painted a vivid picture of that explicit agreement between himself and the ex-president, one of mutual benefit. negative stories about donald trump are bought and buried and negative stories about trump's rivals were embellished or in some instances fabricated. stories of women having affairs with trump were hidden. fake stories with hillary clinton, ted cruz, marco rubio were written up and published. photos were doctored, like this one, amounting to a phenomenon

andrew weissmann referred to as ground zero of fake news. david pecker comes back for more tomorrow. court is quiet today. it resumes today. he takes the stand tomorrow. likely picking back up where yesterday ended on the role the "national enquirer" played in silencing the story of donald trump and karen mcdougal. she had a 10-month affair with donald trump in 2008. mcdougal was paid $150,000 by the "national enquirer" to keep her story silent ahead of the 2016 presidential election. mcdougal is among the other potential witnesses that the prosecution could call. we could soon hear her firsthand account about their alleged relationship from the stand, which would set up quite a moment in that manhattan courtroom where trump would have to watch her tell her story. as this is a criminal trial, the ex-president is required to be present for all of it. the fact he keeps complaining

about. he can't be doing trumpy stuff. he says he would rather be on the campaign trail. just yesterday, there was a rather stark split screen of the two 2024 presidential candidates. one faces the consequences of his potential criminality in a gloomy courtroom. the other out campaigning on the issue of women's reproductive rights and freedoms. a split screen we will be sure to see more of as the trial continues. of course, the importance of this moment and this criminal trial is so much more significant than the contrast between any two images. it's about whether we can still get to the truth. it's about the rule of law in this country applying to everyone. or not. it's about consequences for those who break the law. it's a fate donald trump has avoided for many years now. it's where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters. with us at the table, kate kristenbach. she's been in the courtroom most

of the trial so far. we haven't seen her since it started. former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. former rnc chairman, michael steele is here for the hour. let me ask you -- you were here during jury selection. before any of the juicy testimony had started. i have to say, there's something so extraordinary -- i get notes from our folks who are inside. i then read the transcripts. i'm still, with a pen, the third go through going, my god. i have omg written all over. it's gobsmacking. >> it's captivating. the attorneys on both sides had the opportunity to really start diving into concepts that were going to happen in the case. it's just built on that. then we had opening statements on monday. then with the testimony going into the testimony of david

pecker. my fellow reporters -- it's every line is something we have heard, have past reported on. it's fascinating. it's going to continue, certainly, over the next six weeks. >> what is the sense of what you are hearing in term -- i think you and other reporters have said there will be things we have never heard before. certainly, pecker's immunity deal with the southern district of new york means we haven't heard him in his own words before. doesn't mean the justice department didn't know what he knew. but we hadn't heard it. he testified to a criminal election interference scheme that by every measure violates any reasonable read of election laws. what is the reaction to what is now coming in quickly? >> i certainly think the reporting -- the core reporters are riveted by what pecker is saying. the jury -- this is a marathon for them. they certainly came in, jury selection happened quickly. i think they are just in the

process of absorbing. i think the last few days they were certainly interest and captivated, but probably overwhelmed in their own sense. >> is there a sense that the prosecution had this strategy of bringing on someone who still likes trump and who trump still likes? it feels like the moments where it's going to be very combative potentially may or may not be with mr. pecker. >> i think that's right on. i think pecker certainly comes off -- he introduced this whole scheme. that's giving us an introduction to what the juries are about to hear for the next six weeks. it is also someone that i think has a favorable view of trump and has been a longtime friend of trump. it's going to be interesting to see how trump's attorneys choose to cross him when they do, whether that be tomorrow or friday. sometime later this week. he is also coming off in a way that's quite grandfatherly. i think it's going to be

interesting to see what they choose to approach him on, on cross examination. >> michael steele, i just kept thinking that this is a man who -- i'm not there to absorb the grandfatherly touches. he was the most eligible bachelor. he was never that. he was married. three times but still almost always married. it's going to be awkward to try to discredit him without also discrediting all of the lovely things he said about donald trump. >> yeah. it's one of those dynamics when you are looking at this situation where -- the combination of the trial and all that's coming out of that and then the drama that's outside of the courtroom with political players who are now having to reconcile a lot of things they have said about trump, a lot of

things that they have pushed out there about trump. all of that's going to come crashing into this moment. pecker, for example, is setting up this conversation in a way in which you are going to see and get exposed to what a lot of us know is the real donald trump. how he operates. all of the things that he said -- how he has manipulated situations and people. there are a lot of people out there who are going to realize how much of a sucker they have been and how much of a sucker they continue to be as they try to justify politically, for example, going into the rest of this cycle, support for a man who is sitting in a courtroom who is now being exposed for the fraud that he is. certainly for a lot of the christian republican type voters out there who see this man as moses, guess what?

moses' staff is broken. he can't lead you where you think you need to go. there's a lot i think in this trial that's sort of an understatement of what's going to be playing out for a lot of people in a lot of rooms and a lot of places in washington and around the country. >> michael steele, there's something that for me, as a non-lawyer, feels silly for me to say. but i have the feeling just in consuming the information that the story we're familiar with, the narrator we have come to know, for a variety of legal and political reasons, is michael cohen. what appears to have happened is the reverse engineering, at least of the narration of the the story. he goes down 22 times to meet with bragg's team. he talks to the press. he just announced that out of respect for the process, he will no longer be speaking. we won't be hearing much more from him. we knew there was a frequency, a really robust pace of his

interactions with prosecutors. it appears -- again, we have only taken in pecker's testimony, it appears reversion narration has gone on. i wonder if you get to the point where you don't need cohen, or he would have to contradict peck pecker who said he was the most eligible bachelor. he was so stylish. he was such -- he is basically -- he said everything donald trump wanted every republican to say about him, he has said it on the stand. you have mcdougal who said she was in love with trump. there will be people who have testified to the same fact patterns. >> yeah. that's raises an interesting point. michael cohen -- pecker is the scene setter and gives the

machinations. all of the drama, all of the flowery things he is saying about trump, how they set it up and pushed out is one thing. what cohen does is deconstructs a lot of that. this was a bare bones transaction. this was trying to figure out a workaround. how do we avoid having this publically exposed? what do we need to do? i think a lot of that practical aspect of what happened here really strips bare a lot of the other stuff that -- whether the porn -- the playboy model was in love with him or not, or what pecker said to prop him up and push him out there, all of that seems folly in my view. i think cohen has a chance to make this thing real in a way

against that back pattern, the facts and what happened that pecker is laying out, how this scheme came together that gives it a certain energy that the prosecutors know, yeah, this is how we lock it down, this is how we focus everybody's attention on what really happened here. >> i do like to pull back the curtain and share with our audience what covering trump has done to us. you said porn model and corrected yourself. it's a porn star and playboy model. i come on the air trying not to make trump/pecker jokes. trump is making us dumber. i wonder if voters will feel that, too. >> i think some have felt it for a while. look, no one wants to be -- to realize they have been played a sucker. no one likes that feeling.

particularly when you had countless numbers of family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and others telling you, you know you are getting played, right? there's this sort of reckoning that folks have to come to. donald trump's m.o. is counting on that not occurring. counting on feeding that beast as much as he can with more nonsense, more noise, more things that get you anxious, make you angry so you forget to think about the fact that, what am i so angry about? yeah, inflation is no nglonger 10%, it's 3%. why am i pissed? there's that p.t. barnum aspect of this. come inside and let me tell you a story. you get suckered in. then when you walk out, you would have to walk back into the

real world. for a lot of people walking back into that real world can be a little bit jarring, because you realize you just got played on so many levels and so many ways. this man doesn't really care about you. he is not really pro-life. he is not really a good christian. he is not a smart or capable businessman. he is what everyone has said he is. he is the fraud, the fake, the fake -- the guy who labeled the media fake news, first engaged in creating fake news. this is where it all comes home and roosts. that's part of what -- people said, this is the -- not the most important trial. it may not be from a fact pattern or legal standpoint. but it is from a cultural political standpoint important because it exposes the man for what he is. >> exactly. i think, andrew weissmann, these

are the facts trump is most desperate to keep from his voters. i'm not positive why. i think it is because he inoculated himself by january 6 by lifting up the insurrectionists. i think he has a cover story in the presidential records act for taking classified documents. these are not facts he wants out there. >> absolutely. i wanted to build on stuff you were talking about. i sort of view pecker as not a table setter. i view him as something that may resonate with the two lawyers on the jury. these are the principals, decker and trump. when michael cohen testifies, he is sort of -- i'm a lawyer. he is carrying out what the clients want. he is a staffer. the executive branch terms, he is not a principal. he is the person carrying out what the principals want. there was an agreement with pecker and trump.

the lawyer is just figuring out how do it. how do you get accomplished what the principal wants? we have had those positions. you are a staffer to the principal. this is more than table setting. this is really the heart and soul and the beginning of the agreement. he takes you right there. by the end, he is going to have in 2017 the end of the story. i also think they played from the january 6 committee in that this trial will have lots of people from inside the tent. this is a person who is, as you are saying all these good things about him because he is inside. he is so hard to cross for that reason, not just because he said good things, but this is somebody who was there with him. there's no really good way to cross him other than to say, what you didn't know. you didn't see certain things. you didn't know certain things. a hard cross on him could

completely backfire. the final piece is, the transactional amoral tone that you don't have somebody taking the stand saying, i am so sorry. i violated what it means to be a journalist. i engaged in election fraud. i understand that i defamed people intentionally. i'm supposed to be in the news business. maybe low rent news business, but defamation, not a good thing. that persona is what the government will turn to and say, you know who else is transactional like that, the defendant. >> i want to dive into what's coming tomorrow morning. that's karen mcdougal. let me show you some of karen mcdougal in her own words about how in her experience and her view, how connected she was to donald trump.

>> as you enter a relationship, you start to think about where this is going to go and how you feel. how did you view it? how did you view the relationship? >> you know, going through it, when i look back where i was back then, i know it's wrong. i really sorry for that. i know it's the wrong thing to do. but back in those days -- sorry. >> it's okay. back there that day, i was a different girl. i had fun. i was in the playboy scene. i was just enjoying life as much as i could. when i got with him, there was a real relationship there. there were real feelings between the two of us, not just myself,

not just him. there was a real relationship there. i kind of, out of sight, out of mind, with everything else. i did have a lot of guilt but i still continued. >> you believe that he had real feelings for you? >> of course he did. i know he did. >> he would say that? >> he did. >> were you in love with him? >> i was, yeah. >> do you think he was in love with you? >> he was, yeah. >> i don't have words. what would that be like on the stand? >> what is so great for the state in putting that testimony on is she is an exhibit more than a witness. the state is going to say, what you heard from her, all of the evidence, whether it's coming directly from her, it's coming from david pecker, this is what they did not want the lectorate

to hear. you have in front of you exactly what they did not want to come out right after ucar "access hollywood." it brings to life the nature of the scheme, what it is that would have been said and why they didn't want the risk. >> it's clear-cut election interference? >> that's the -- the state has argued -- take the state law. corporations cannot give money. there's also limits on the amount of money. just take ami, the "national enquirer," they paid cash -- this isn't in kind. they did in-kind services also. you don't have to get to in-kind payments. they paid unreimbursed cash to karen mcdougal in order -- as david pecker said, for campaign purposes. that's a violation. that's one that the judge has said is a violation. if there's a conviction, donald

trump would be able to appeal that and get a court to say whether that's the correct interpretation of the law. that is why his testimony is not a precursor to other -- this is core to why it's a felony is this in-kind and cash payments that are being made for campaign purposes to donald trump. >> he had immunity. obviously, when there was a change of administration, merrick garland would have access to what he did. not even an in-kind -- a classic campaign finance violation. >> i can do better than that. leave aside -- remember, jack smith was brought in to do january 6. the real question is, where was the department of justice? we understand why nothing happened under bill barr. >> sure.

>> from the time that you have merrick garland until jack smith, there was no forward movement on the case. that's just a big empty question. there is a ramification to the state's case because of that. some of the charges -- a lot of people say, why didn't they charge misdemeanors and felonies? they can't charge misdemeanors anymore. the time lapsed. you have to bring it within a certain time period. the delay has all sorts of ramifications. we have seen it on the federal side in connection with the january 6 case and this race against the clock. we see it here. we are where we are. there'sl unanswered questions. >> still to come, more on karen mcdougal. what that line of questioning could be like. it's not just the multiple criminal indictments getting in the way of donald trump. why the political math in all

important states like pennsylvania are a vexing problem for candidate trump. we will look ahead to tomorrow's big date at the supreme court. will there be accountability at the top for what happened at the united states capitol on january 6? the issue of abortion back at the doorstep of the supreme court. what we heard from the justices today, what they are telling us about the fate of emergency room health care in some of the most conservative states in the country. it could be more daunting news for women in america.

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when you say you would arrange to go someplace, how would it be arranged? >> i would pay for the flight. i would book it myself. i would book the hotel room if i wasn't staying with him. usually, i stayed with him. there were a couple times where i didn't. he would reimburse me. if the flight was, i don't know, $500, he would give me $500 and say, take care of the flight and things like that. >> why would he have you book all the travel and the hotel room? >> there's no paper trail. >> did you realize that at the time? >> yes, i did. >> because he was concerned about it being revealed at some point and there being a paper trail? >> i was told, there's no paper trail. i can't say what his reasons were. i would assume that's the case, yes. >> this is the other half. she believed that she was in love with him and she believed

that he was in love with her and that she knew from the beginning that she had to lay out her own money because there could be no paper trail. clear evidence that he wanted it kept hidden. she's not sure why. but clearly, keep it secret was the point. >> i think we even heard that from david pecker, that he testified that he acknowledged being part of this catch and kill scheme but said that he didn't want this to even become public within the organization, that this was really a scheme that was concocted in 2015 at trump tower between trump, michael cohen and pecker. from there on, it's no surprise that karen mcdougal would potentially come up as something kept -- she thought was supposed to be kept secret. >> tomorrow when david pecker is back on the stand, what do we expect to learn from him? >> we only scratched the surface of the karen mcdougal catch and kill scheme. we talked about how initially it

came to pass. we haven't even gone into any of the detail, any of the money changing hands. that's certainly where the testimony will pivot. we just learned of the broad brushes of this part of the scheme. certainly, after mcdougal, we expect then we get into stormy daniels and really it seems like almost that was the prosecutor's intention to end with mcdougal, leave them with that in mind, both on our day off and going into thursday and certainly from there we will go into the broader scheme with stormy. >> you said something about pacing. what is your sense of how long the prosecution will have pecker on the stand? >> i think it's likely we go most of the day tomorrow with the continuation of the direct examination. i think it's likely we get to cross. it's possible that this plus then going back -- it goes through the end of the week. it's possible that we still have david pecker for the rest of the week. >> michael steele, the social

media platforms might break. i'm just -- i hate myself for thinking about what he is going to think and do. but i can't help but thinking about what he is going to think and do. >> yeah. he is going to lose his mind with this portion of the examination into his actions. pecker laying this narrative out very precisely, very concisely. we have already seen in stuff that just -- leading up to this, where he is -- he is like a caged animal. you can almost sense the pacing back and forth, trying to figure out what he can say, how he can say it. he has been a little boxed in by the gag order and whatever his counsel has been telling him. but i think that -- i think where -- this is where some of the lid comes off of that. that steam is going to get

released. i would not be surprised at certain portions of the testimony where he is audibly expressing his anger and frustration in the courtroom as he did just during the voir dire with the jurors. they were just being asked, what do you think of trump. they weren't getting into any juicy stuff. now we are getting to the juicy parts. yeah, he is probably going to lose his mind. i think that's something that's going to be very telling for the jury. more importantly, for the country, for all of those folks out here who are sitting back thinking this man is being railroaded. this didn't begin under joe biden. this began under his administration. the people who are testifying are not antifa and left wing

democrats. they are republicans who served in his administration. they are republicans who fawned over him and cared for his every need, who are now realizing, donald trump is not going to save my hide from the institutions of justice, i'd better save myself and tell people what i know when i was in the room. that's what you are going to see, i think, with a lot of these conversations coming up, this testimony. >> andrew, this is -- it could be a partial list. michael cohen, stormy daniels, karen mcdougal, keith davidson, hope hicks, there's a documents expert and a paralegal from the d.a.'s office. what do you think in terms of -- i know you are not inside the case that's being presented at a strategic level. you know more than anyone else we could ask.

what are they thinking about what they have to work with? >> let me tell about you the documents expert and the paralegal. that is one where -- mary and i talked about this. we listened to the opening. you are looking at what are witnesses going to say. you hope the witnesses do well on the stand. some will have a lot of baggage like michael cohen. you look for, what are the tent poles of hard evidence? that paralegal is going to take the stand and talk about phone records. that's been alluded to about certain key times. you build a time line of when things happened. it can be so devastating, both in terms of just what happened when, because you -- those records don't lie. you can really place certain things in chronological order. you can obviously show that somebody's implicated. if you notice at the outset of

david pecker's testimony, he was asked about his telephone numbers. they want to link up to the records they have. on october 26, just before the election, the prosecutor referenced in his opening two telephone calls between michael cohen and donald trump. right after that, michael cohen creates essential consulting, the vehicle used to pay stormy daniels. there will be a lot of pieces like that. then there are witnesses like hope hicks, where you think -- we think we know the whole story. that is somebody, like david pecker, we had a sense, with hope hicks, she really can shore up things. one thing that's interesting is, you know what knows about this? not just the d.a., the southern district of new york, you know who knows about this? donald trump. they have all the testimony. they have everything that she's going to say they know. they have a good sense of what's coming.

that's where they will be thinking about, when do you use those key pieces? what do you need to shore up when? >> you can't fathom him attacking her. she's never broken with him publically. he had other women dye think hair to look like her. >> it's fascinating the non-attack of david pecker and hope hicks. there's various schools of thought. one is, there's more they know. you poke the bear, it could get worse. >> amazing. thank you for coming back. i know you are busy. wednesday felt like a good day to get you here. andrew, we are not done with you. we will see you later. michael sticks around for the hour. candidate donald trump won the pennsylvania republican primary yesterday. that's not the whole story. there are red warning flashing signs flashing for him everywhere there. even after his last rival has been out of the race for months now. we will bring you that story

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back to the math. it's major for the ex-president and republican presidential nominee. the latest example comes from the key must-win battleground state of pennsylvania. yesterday's presidential primary there delivered some eye-popping numbers, sure to set off alarm bells inside of the highest levels of the trump campaign. at least 156,000 pennsylvania voters told donald trump, no thank you. they voted for nikki haley yesterday, a candidate who suspended her campaign seven weeks ago. did we mention this happened yesterday? the state was decided by just over 80,000 votes in the election in 2020. what makes the result even more glaring and problematic for trump is this wasn't one of the states where independents and democrats could cross over to vote for nikki haley. the pennsylvania republican primary is a closed primary. the electorate, the people who

chose nikki haley in those numbers, those were all registered republicans in pennsylvania. joining our conversation, from the departmentof homeland security, we are glad she's back, elizabeth newman is here. she's the author of "kingdom of rage, the rise of christian extremism and the path back to peace" which we will talk about in a second. michael steele is with us as well. these are not good numbers for trump. >> can you see the smile on my face? >> i see it. >> they are not good numbers. i was pleasantly surprised. think about how intense you have to be to go vote for somebody that's to longer in convention. it's decided. he will be the nominee. >> it's a protest. >> yeah. i want to hear -- i want the republican party to hear my voice. i am done with trump. i think the question is, does that mean they vote for biden or do they sit it out in november? >> michael steele, what did you

make of the numbers? obviously, the closed primary aspect of it makes it a more troubling political development for the trump team. >> yeah, i think that's an important aspect of it. you do need to distinguish it from what we saw in new hampshire, for example, where it was an open primary. a lot of democrats and interests -- independents voted in that which changed the numbers. here you talking about a closed primary, all republicans that are only allowed to vote. it sends a shot across the bow. the appropriate question is, what does it mean? who are these voters? are these the voters who sort of braved the point, i don't want to have something go sideways, so i want to put my voice in the mix? do i want to show how mad i am at trump? how does that translate come november? do those voters then come back to the polls in november or do

they sit out? my thinking is from my experience, and probably from yours as well, is a voter who gets in their car and drives to a polling place to cast a vote for someone who is not -- is no longer on the ballot, can no longer be the nominee, is not going to stay home on election day. they're not going to sit it out. they will go to the polls. again, i keep saying this to the democrats and the biden team, those are your voters. your coalition right now is fractured. right? you have got to look at, a, how you tighten up the coalition amongst your own folks, but then b, which is actually probably a, the number one thing you need to do is get those voters who are making these very public statements about their intent, right? this is an intentional act and

vote that says come november, i'm up for grabs. this is an important opportunity, i think, to really solidify the conversation with those voters, to reach out to them directly in a personal way and say, i need you. i heard you. i saw what you did in pennsylvania. you are going to see it here in maryland. you will see it in other primary states coming down the pike where nikki haley is going to secure a lot of disaffected, pissed off republican voters. the question then becomes, what do you do with them? you don't want them nor do you let them stay at home. you get them out to vote for joe biden. >> for the biden campaign, my thoughts about what they would say to your various commentary, it's a and a. you need both to win. up next, michael and i will dig into the new book on the rise of domestic extremism in this country. don't go anywhere. where.

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it's no longer about islamic extremism. our security capabilities inside the united states are weak. congratulations on the book. explain how few tools there are for combating domestic violent extremism compared to foreign terrorism. >> we have a ton of tools in the foreign terrorism tool kit from our intelligence to military which we would not deploy on our own citizens. those allow us to collect information on potentially harmful people that we can't collect here in the united states. one of the biggest things is we can designate terrorist organizations. when we designate i.s.i.s. or al qaeda, we can say, any american or anybody overseas that's providing material support,

which is very low bar in the law, we can charge you with a crime. you can't do that in the domestic terrorism space. could you have two people doing the same act, one for i.s.i.s., one for a neonazi group in the united states, and that act for i.s.i.s. could be prosecuted and the material support for neonazi. >> the mission was to stay left of them. sometimes it was a feeling was that it was a matter of seconds, a plot was ununaej earthed. if you can't label the threat, how do you prevent it? >> that's what we ran into when i went back how do you prevent it? >> that's what we ran into it. in the government in 2017, 2018, we were starting to see this spike. it had started in 2015. it's been going on for almost ten years now. and that increase is predominantly coming from violent extremists on the far

right, domestic in nature, and the law enforcement was struggling. they were getting tips and leads, knocking on doors, asking questions, but there wasn't enough evidence for them to use their law enforcement tools to go investigate and arrest and disrupt. but they knew. they knew something was going to happen. they knew that that person needed help. so we need a different set of tools not only for domestic extremism, but quite frankly, all forms of violence, whether it's targeted violence or motivated by isis and al qaeda, we have now learned after 20 years of studying why people radicalize, why people mobilize to violence, that the underlying drivers are psycho social. so if you can intervene with individuals early enough in their radicalization process, you can offramp them without ever having to get to a law enforcement solution. and that's what i'm advocating for in this book. we need a set of tools that are mental health professionals,

social workers, educators, parents to be able to detect when somebody is in that radicalization cycle and get them help. but we also just need to be as a society working in what we consider the primary prevention space, building protective measures now, in our kids and in our communities so that if and when somebody has a moment of vulnerability or gets exposed to extremist narrative, they have resilience against it. >> it seems like that's the right thing to do, except when it's coming from the leader of one of the country's two political party, and it's happening at waco where he announced his campaign and his entire political party acts impotent to protect the country from clear imminent threats. what do you do about donald trump and half the people in the country don't want to touch his base? >> this is a narrative that says my group is facing a threat to

our successor survival by an outgroup. most of our politics bathes in that narrative every day. we're saturated. >> but only on one side. only the republicans have that message. >> so what i would say is on the republican side, they advocate for hostile action, which moves you to extremism. but i would say on both sides, our politics have increasingly been othering. we demonize the other side. >> joe biden -- what has joe biden done that's othering? >> i don't know that joe biden as a leader is -- >> but if you do apples to apples. >> no, there is no comparison. >> so what is the nominee for president in the republican party do to make the country more dangerous? >> so i am most concerned on about trump and about the republican party maga acolytes who actively not only use that precursor narrative, they go to that next step of extremism which is advocating for hostile action. hostile action can be noncriminal. it can be things like threats and intimidation and bullying,

which is how donald trump runs all of his criminal enterprise series through threats and intimidation and bullying. we're seeing that in the trial right now. but the criminal stuff, when you get to hate crimes and vandalism and threats of violence or actual violence and acts of terrorism, he has demonstrated that not only does he dog whistle people to do those things, at times he actually suggests that violence is going to be necessary. you had kari lake last week say not only do you need to put on the armor of god -- sorry, a reference to a scripture in ephesians about prayer and faith, but went the next step and you also need to slap on a glock, implying that we are going to need to physically not only defend, but she kind of suggested fight for the political outcome that you want. it's very dangerous rhetoric. most people, most people are not going to go commit an act of violence. but there are a small percentage

that are very vulnerable to that kind of messaging. and it does lead to more violence. it does lead to terrorist attacks. and people die because our politicians are so loose with their words. it needs to stop. and the american people need to tell the politicians to stop. >> i mean, the american people on one side elected the guy who is the worst practitioner, michael steele. it is a one-sided problem. i take elizabeth's perspective and respectfully disagree. the person who bludgeoned new hampshire's husband believed. the leader of one party is circulating messages that mass shooters say in their manifestos they believe. the leader of one party just called for mass protests in new york city and had some bs about not being able -- the city is not locked down. you can go anywhere you want in the city. there is one guy celebrating the insurrectionists who mauled cops, who beat them in a way that one of those law enforcement officials who was a

veteran said was medieval combat. far worse than anything he saw in actual combat on behalf of our country. there is one guy running for president who think people serving the country's military, the actual military, not a militia, are, quote, suckers and losers. i mean, there is one guy who is radicalizing his base, and it ain't joe biden. >> that is very true. first off, let me say, elizabeth, it's so good to see you. congratulations on the book. very excited for your success. and it's smart stuff, and it's important to put out in public. so nicolle, to your point, you're right. there is one guy who is doing all of this. there is one guy at the center of it all. but this one guy is influencing a lot of people. and they're not just republicans. and they're not just the hard right conservative. there is the, you know, the smart, sophisticated wall street businessman who says, well, i don't like all of that, i like his policies.

what policies? well, he cut taxes. and he will vote for donald trump. there is the homemaker in new hampshire who, you know, is reviled by the grab 'em by the private parts, the "access hollywood" tape, but then confesses, well, in a lot of ways he is just like me. so we have to understand and contextualize what's happening. and i've been saying it for a long, long time. the one guy is infecting a lot of people, and it's not just the group that started this, that pushed him out there and gave him the momentum to perpetuate it and keep it going. it is everybody else too. and that's what we have to guard against as we get into the november election. >> elizabeth neumann, who has written the most perfectly titled book that we've had a chance to talk about, "kingdom of rage." it's available right now. michael steele, thank you for

being my wingman this hour. very nice to spend the hour with you. very nice to see you. congrats on the book. when we come back, can an ex-president be charged for crimes committed while in office? that's a real question, right? it's a real question that will be decided by nine individuals, the united states supreme court justices tomorrow morning. we'll preview that big day next. stay with us. next. stay with us the farmer's dog is fresh food made with whole meat and veggies. it's not dry food. it's not wet food. it's just real food. it's an idea whose time has come. (vo) if you have graves' disease... ...and itchy eyes, the truth may be even more uncomfortable. people with graves' could also get thyroid eye disease, or t-e-d, which may need a different doctor. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com.

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it cannot be the case that a president of the united states can attempt to overturn an election and seize power, and that our justice system is incapable of holding a trial, of holding him to account before the next election. that cannot be the case. taking action that will result in further delay in preventing the american people from seeing that evidence in open court is

itself suppression of the evidence that the american people have a right to see that evidence, and the court out to recognize that. >> it cannot be. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. consider two simple questions that cut through to the very beating heart of our living, breathing democracy. the first is the president of the united states above the law, yes or no? is the sheer power of the office so absolute, so permanent that no single act, however foul is subject to legal scrutiny? we don't know. while that courthouse in manhattan has so far absorbed our attention these past few days, tomorrow it will be the supreme court that we'll have to keep an eye on as well, making its own bit of supreme court history. opening arguments in donald trump's immunity case start at 10:00 a.m. eastern. those nine justices, those nine human beings will evaluate the arguments being made by a disgraced ex-president that the actions he took in the aftermath of losing the 2020 election to

overturn that defeat were actions taken by a president, were official acts. his team will make the argument that those fake electors plot and the attack that turned deadly and threatened the life of mike pence at the u.s. capitol trace back to his duty, his official role as the country's chief executive. he'll argue that it was done to preserve the integrity of the election. special counsel jack smith's team has argued, quote, a private scheme of private actors to achieve a private end. the petitioner's effort to remain in power by fraud. quote, nothing in constitutional text, history, precedent or policy considerations supports the absolute immunity that the petitioner seeks. although it will surprise no one that that hasn't stopped trump's lawyers from asserting that he could go so far as to direct s.e.a.l. team 6 to assassinate a political opponent.

that's being said out loud now. that's where we are as a country, as a democracy. that is where we are. even beyond this epic question of the scope of american presidential power is the all important second question, right. that is what profound damage has been done, how far away from true north are we as a democracy that this question is being considered at all. no american president, not one, not even richard nixon asserted that a president should have such sweeping immunity. not even nixon did that. and yet the man who is making that argument in an attempt to avoid accountability for his actions, actions he barely denies just so happens to be the current republican nominee for the office of the presidency of the united states. and then there is the supreme court itself. so here is where this gets interesting, and tricky for

them, right? a body whose popularity among the american people according to gallup has plunged farther and faster than any american institution in civic life. that body, those people on your screen, they denied a request to contemplate this very question from the other side from the prosecutors back in december. jack smith sought to fast track this case. maybe not having a trial, maybe not airing the evidence in front of the american people before an election to decide, you guessed it, who will be our president. make no mistake. whether or not trump prevails this particular appeal does nothing to change a fact that the nation's highest court has already done the disgraced ex-president a solid in terms of the timeline, the schedule. big favor. they have gift wrapped and otherwise unavailable delay for him. they've shown the country, the public, the 60% of americans who don't think much of them anymore. they've shown an ability to move quickly when he asked them to.

so here we go. foundational principle under consideration, the future of our democracy at stake. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. u.s. special correspondent for bbc studios katty kay is here. joining us rnc spam, host of the bulwark podcast tim miller is here. back with me at the table former official at the department of justice, msnbc analyst the indispensable andrew weissman is here. i want to play the s.e.a.l. team 6 thing. so no one thinks i'm just saying that. here it is. >> could a president who ordered seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival who was not impacted could he be impeached? >> if he were impeached and convicted first. >> my answer is qualified yes. >> with trump, we should know by now that one of these are hypothetical, right? he always gets to the absolute

end of any theoretical hypothetical. >> it's his right to push these claims. the culprit here is the supreme court in making this sort of a new normal. my colleague melissa murray and i read a piece today that said the basis of the supreme court already botched this because they did not take it as you pointed out in december. there is no reason to have a stay in effect right now because there is no way that they're going rule that there is immunity in this case. the only argument, the only argument heard from anybody, even the most conservative legal jurists is maybe in some small area dealing with like foreign relations, there may be some area where a president is immune, but it's not this. so there no reason to have taken the case. there is no reason to have taken the case and stayed the district court case. so that's the real evil is i think what's going to happen is the supreme court is going to

issue a flowery decision about how presidents are not above the law. it's going to sound great, and they could issue that in june, and it's too late. because what they will be saying is presidents are not above the law, but this former president is. and it's really -- it is so political, with a capital p in terms of what they're doing here when there is just no basis in the law whatsoever for a claim that he is immune with respect to this case. >> and what do the most respected defenders of the court, how do you defend -- if the argument is one you want to weigh in on, why not take it up when jack smith puts it before the court? >> delay. i can't give you a good faith argument. the argument one why not take it up in december. why schedule it when you finally do take it, why schedule it for the very last day.

tomorrow is the very last day of the term. they gave two months for briefing, as if the parties hadn't already fully briefed this in the district and the court of appeals. it could have been heard on an expedited basis. they do that all the time. one of the things again, to be proselytizing for nyu, as my other colleague ryan goodman and i wrote a series of questions that the justices should be asking the parties. and the key one is donald trump is saying that he is immune from prosecution. he is also saying that the d.c. prosecution is interfering with his ability to run for office. so the question to his council counsel is don't you have every reason for us to decide this quickly? on the only question before us which is immunity, not the trial date, that's not supposed to be before us, isn't it your interest to have us decide this quickly? or are you saying you only want us to decide it quickly if we're ruling in your favor, but otherwise you want us to take a

lot of time? >> but that is the -- that is the practical impact of this. is there -- do we think so little of them as does the american people there is no scenario that decides this quickly enough for judge tanya chutkan to have a trial before the election? >> i think it is possible. when i look at the data points here, they don't add up to getting there because as you pointed out, they could have taken the case in december. they didn't have to delay this for two months to hear it on the very last day. and so, you know, if i'm looking at the tea leaves, are you asking me do i think so little of them, and am i so cynical? yes. i think there are five justices who are perfectly happy to give this a very, very slow roll. >> i'm ten steps more cynical than you are. i'm just trying to understand if it's possible that they -- and i think hope is the gateway to despair, so i'm not going to hope for anything.

but is it possible, is it possible to make a decision in a manner that lets judge tanya chutkan have a trial before election day? >> it is. and there are also a number of things they could do. so one of the things that happens not very often, but it can happen in the supreme court. it happens in the lower courts is they could say we are lifting the stay. they could take a vote the day after the argument on friday. they could decide we're lifting the stay, opinion to follow. and that lets her go forward. and have all the pretrial proceedings. >> the odds less than 1. >> yes. in a rational world, there is no reason for the stay to have existed. but let's say you decided you want to give donald trump his due in terms of making his argument, then the key point to him is tell me why there is immunity in this case. and if it's clear from five justices that there is no immunity in this case, then lift the stay immediately. let the case go forward. and if you want to write on it,

write on it. you can issue your flowery decision. the key culprit right now is the stay, because the district court cannot do anything. she can't -- remember, there is an 88-day period that she had promised that there would be sort of 88 days before the march 4th trial date. i can't help but say by the way, if that case had gone forward, we would likely have a verdict now, sitting here. >> it's incredible. tim miller, who is obviously by design, here is conservative's conservative judge michael litnick. >> it's unimaginable to me that the supreme court will decide this case before the last day of the term, which typically is around july 1st. if that's true, then it's equally unimaginable to me that the former president will be

tried before the election in november. against my belief that the court would not take the case, i infer that there must be some dissent on the court by some number of the justices on the question of whether the president, this president has absolute immunity for the particular offenses against the united states with which he has been charged by jack smith. >> this is my second day back after maternity leave. and it was in that moment as he is answering the questions as only judge luttig does as andrew said, it's highly unlikely that the american people will see this case adjudicated before they go and vote again for president. >> yeah, and it's shameful. on the courtside of things, the cynical, if i may try to out cynic both of you. >> it's a race. >> i think there are some of those members, alito, thomas, who knows how many of the others

who are happy to do their job to delay and then rule in the right way, right, and have cover on this. what are you talking about? i'm not here helping donald trump. we looked at this, and obviously presidents aren't immune. if they want to shoot somebody on fifth avenue. so i can say i ruled the right way for president's sake while helping donald trump. it seems pretty obvious that that's happening, given that one of the justice's spouse tried to help the coup. look, i'll defer to judge luttig and andrew on the legal side of this. my only other observation is kind of listening to all of that and all those clear minded thoughts is the very first clip that you played is from liz cheney. and i would like to hear more of that from people that are in political life currently. and i don't know why it's left up to liz cheney to continually have to be the one that is out there saying this is a crisis. we need to do this. there needs to be pressure on

the court. it is outrageous. he attempted an insurrection. this is unacceptable. everything that she says is exactly right, and it's not like there is nobody else out there. obviously on this show and there are other commentators and stuff. but from people in office, from biden surrogates, from the remaining three or four republicans who might want to do the right thing that are elected, more liz cheneys on this issue would be nice right now. because it's urgent, the fact that the supreme court has delayed on this so much. >> you know, katty, the split screen too of trump being held accountable, again, we have no idea. a jury will decide, right, whether he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. but it seems perfectly doable, and that the supreme court thought so much of itself and of trump to make sure that that didn't happen at a federal level is part of the stain that the american people according to gallup now ascribe to this makeup of the united states supreme court. >> yeah, it's perfectly doable. we are spendable multiple hours

a day watching what's happening up in new york, and we're watching donald trump sitting at a defendant's table being put on trial. and as you say, the jury will decide whether he is found guilty or not. but the legal process, the idea that no man is above the law is playing out in realtime for us in new york under judge merchan -- in judge merchan's courtroom. and he is having to be subjugated to all of the indecencies and the kind of humiliations if you like of a criminal defendant. it's totally possible. america has the wherewithal to do this. i guess my question in a way would be for justice roberts, who we know is concerned, who we hear from multiple reports is concerned about the legacy of his court and the idea that its approval ratings in the country are plummeting in the way they are, the idea that it has become overly politicized and therefore is losing some of its effectiveness. i wonder what he is thinking about this. i'm wondering what he thinks this does for the reputation of his court.

>> we know that they all consume a lot of media. they sometimes regurgitate things people like you say on this program. andrew weissman, thank you for being so generous with your time, doing double duty for all of us. tim will be back later in the broadcast. katty doesn't go anywhere. when we come back, abortion rights are before the united states supreme court today on a case that could have alarming implications right now for emergency health care for women. plus, the months' long battle for aid for ukraine ends with a victory for president joe biden and ukraine, and any one of us who care about democracy deeply. it's also a big blow for the pro-putin far right and putin himself. and later in the broadcast, when the man who held the most powerful office in the world is on trial, it's safe to say the entire planet is watching. what the world makes of the historic hush money election interference trump trial. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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just answer the point, which is they will present with a serious medical condition that doctors in good faith can't say will present death, but will present potential loss of life. those doctors -- potential loss of an organ or serious medical complications for the woman, they can't perform those abortions. >> if that condition exists, yes. idaho law does say that abortions in that case aren't allowed. >> aren't allowed. if an organ is at risk.

donald trump's america, guys. that was supreme court justice sotomayor at oral arguments earlier today summing up where we are not just in idaho, but as a country, as americans. the nation's highest court in the land is forced to reckon and rumble with the world donald trump created for women in this country, now, today, that's happening right now. the case before the justices today was about whether a federal law that requires hospitals to provide stabilizing health care to any patient whose life or health is in serious jeopardy covers abortion health care in states where the procedure is heavily restricted or banned. the state of idaho is suing because it wants to deny abortions to women having a medical crisis in the moment. it's a direct result of a majority in the court that included three hand-picked justices from donald trump stripping away the protections enjoyed in in country for 50 years under roe v. wade.

here is justice sonia sotomayor laying out the real world situations where women in america have been denied care. >> imagine a patient who goes to the er with pprom, 14 weeks. again, abortion is the accepted. she was in and out of the hospital up to 27 weeks. this particular patient, they tried, had to deliver her baby. the baby died. she had a hysterectomy and she can no longer have children. all right. you're telling me the doctor there couldn't have done the abortion earlier? >> again, it goes back to whether a doctor can in good faith medical judgment -- >> that's a lot for the doctor to risk. >> despite all the evidence of the horrors caused by situations like that, the male conservative justices seem disinclined to do anything to clean up the mess that's been made and allow women

and doctors to provide emergency medical health care. justice samuel alito asked the u.s. solicitor general this, quote, how can you impose restrictions on what idaho can criminalize? what idaho has done is a devastating consequences for women already. in the time since the ban went into effect, in one hospital alone, six patients were medevac'd, airlifted, that's what happens when you're in a horrific, catastrophic car accident. these women were simply pregnant and had to be airlifted out of idaho in 2024 in america. the arguments took place hours before the arizona state house voted to repeal its 160-year-old near total abortion ban. that law heads to the senate. joining our consideration, the president of reproductive freedom for all, minnie tim raju was here. she was outside the supreme court today speaking to a crowd about reproductive rights and freedom.

with me at the table, former obama white house policy director, msnbc medical contributor, our dear friend vida patel. katty is still with us as well. it's incredible, incredible that this is even being debated. even more incredible that it sounds like from the questioning conservative justices want to preserve idaho's right to prosecute doctors. >> yeah, it's very troubling. i had to kind of catch up on listening to this. and the whole time i thought this is not going the direction that i thought it could go in where the emergency medical treatment and labor act which is kind of what's at heart here, it's really -- it has nothing to do with abortion. it's really about triaging, stabilizing the patient and understanding how to treat them. so it had all the things that we've learned in medicine, including our code of ethics. i thought well, that will surely prevail. and sure enough, it turns out that they want us to act more like lawyers, but then lawyers are now allowed to act like doctors.

>> what is the dynamic already? >> so right now what's happening, not just in the state of idaho, but around the country, you're seeing many doctors who are wondering could this happen to us? and in many cases, things that would normally never even be a question, such as some of the examples that justice sotomayor mentioned, ectopic pregnancies, that would be just like any other case. in even in states like maryland where they codified the right tie borgess or reproductive care, everyone is stopping and thinking is this something i need to actually debate? is this something i need to hav. most of the doctors we continue with the care that's best for the patient. but there is no doubt that this is affecting the national landscape. and to be clear, it's affecting not just womens health care, it's affecting all health care. if you don't have properly trained doctors who don't understand how to do what we were trained to do in the time of emergency, that really --

that risks everybody's lives. not just women. >> and do you end up with second class of patients, right? >> right. >> where a pregnant person is someone that no one wants to touch. >> yeah, you also end up with the disparities widening. we know that people who have resources are probably going to be able to access them. but we know the majority of women who don't know how to find a resource or may not have the courage to come forward and say something doesn't feel right. so this is not necessarily women seeking illegal abortions, this is women seeking health care. and they are now being put at risk. and all the work we have done over the decades to increase access to care now slowly becomes derivative. >> tell me how you saw today's arguments. >> i agree with dr. patel. they were troubling. i will say the arguments started off really strong. the three progressive women on the court, s sotomayor, kagan,

even amy coney barrett, the arguments made by idaho, the state, it really struck me that the feminine part of the court matters. it was the four women, even the one conservative justice who were asking the tough questions about life and death scenarios and seemed pretty troubled by the state's arguments. but ultimately, i think it's really important two thanks to take away from the moment we've had today. one, 86% of americans support emergency access to abortion. recent polling by kaiser. 86% of americans, a wide range of americans to make up that number. and that this is a national case. this has national implications. and, you know, our republican friends are really fond of pointing out exceptions. the idaho council kept pointing out to the idaho exceptions.

imtala could be viewed as the ultimate national exception to an abortion ban. and yet here we have idaho in court arguing and fighting back against a very simple clear-cut emergency case of abortion care. and that's frightening and chilling. >> you know, katty, the questions before the country are yielding new numbers it feels like every week. i mean, the number of people who support abortion, and most are all instances are the highest it's ever been. the republican acceptance of/enthusiasm for criminalizing abortion health care is real. the bans that eliminate exceptions in cases of rape and incest are real. the laws in idaho to prosecute doctors are, as minnie said, confounding even to justice amy coney barrett. let me show you an ad that gavin newsom is running about what the experience is like for a

pregnant woman in america. >> we're almost there. you're going make it. >> trump republicans want to criminalize young alabama women who travel for reproductive care. >> miss, i'm going to need you to step out of the vehicle, take a pregnancy test. >> stop them by taking action at right to travel.org. >> and, again, the testimony today before the supreme court was that six women were airlifted out of the state of idaho to receive health care. it's happened. >> yeah. that same hospital that you're talking about, nicolle, last year one woman was airlifted from st. luke's for emergency long-term health care in the very same hospital before the law went into effect. so you can see directly the consequences. i mean, you've got doctors in

mexico who are mailing abortion pills to women living in red states in america. you've got the prospect of crossing the border to go and have an abortion into mexico where it's legal. it looks so antiquated what the united states is doing here compared to any other advanced economy in the world in terms of giving women right to health care. what are doctors going to do? do they have to stand there saying is she bleeding enough? are her organs failing enough? is she infected enough before they're allowed to take any kind of action? doctors are increasingly deciding i can't practice the kind of medicine that women need in idaho. i'm going to go move to a state where they can have it. and women, young women are starting to make those choices too. i'm not going to live in states. i'm not going to have children in states where that or get pregnant in a state where that's a possibility because of the impact it might have on me. it just -- it's so hard to

explain to people my viewers around the world what is happening here when it comes to abortion when you see the numbers, the overwhelming majority of americans want to have access to this health care right, but the organs and the structures and the scaffolding of democracy aren't doing their job. they're not representing the american people on this, as on gun control. just the system is broken when it comes to things that american public say they want and what its democracies is delivering for them. >> such an important and profound point. minnie and dr. kavita patel, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. katty sticks around with us. a good day for world peace that is what president joe biden said today when he signed into law a massive aid package for israel, ukraine and taiwan. that story is next. at story is t ? with chewy, always keep their bowl full. save 35% on your first autoship order. get the food they love. delivered again and again. (♪♪) [thud]

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it's a good day for america. it's a good day for europe. it's a good day for world peace. >> we don't walkway from our allies. we stand with them. we don't let tyrants win. we don't merely watch global events unfold. we shape them. some forget that. but this vote makes it clear. there is a bipartisan consensus for that kind of american leadership. >> today president joe biden signed into law billions of dollars in foreign aid, billions of dollars that make it very clear where america stands on national security and democracy. that is after months of delay by maga republicans, as you heard the president reference there, at the expense of america's

image and prestige and trustworthiness around the world. the crucial aid package overwhelmingly approved by the u.s. senate last night includes $26 billion for israel and for humanitarian relief in gaza. $8 billion for security in taiwan, in the indo-pacific, and $60 billion in wartime assistance for ukraine. it includes $1 billion in weapons and defenses that president biden says will be shipped to ukraine today. it is exactly what president biden has demanded from congress since october during which time he has spent months negotiating a bipartisan border deal to try to satisfy house republican detractors only for republicans in the senate to kill the deal and admit publicly that they killed it, even though it had lots of stuff they wanted, to make donald trump happy. wow. tim and katty are back. tim? >> that's something. we got to give joe biden a lot of credit. i was waiting for question.

but joe biden -- why doesn't anybody give joe biden credit, nicolle? it's pretty crazy. even me. i'll raise my hand. even me. the last couple of weeks, they were going on vacation, these guys, three weeks ago. why isn't biden out there upbraiding them? why isn't he shaming them and wagging his finger and using this to political advantage. but multiple times he has worked what's been happening in congress, he's worked the republicans that are workable on the hill. he did it with james lankford on that senate deal that donald trump killed. and in the end, he got the deal done, again. just like it happened on infrastructure and on chips, et cetera. joe biden deserves big credit for this. so does mike johnson, by the way. it took him too long, but the good for mike johnson for doing it. i think it's telling about the state of affairs. the very end of biden's remarks today, he says essentially that there is a bipartisan coalition republicans, independents, and democrats that are for america being a leader in the world, for

america being the world's essential nation believes that we should use america's strengths for good. and there is a rump group of maga, it's about half of the republican party, about half of one party that is outside of that, outside of that american consensus. and i think that if joe biden can position himself as being the one to lead that american consensus that includes some republicans, i think he'll be successful again like he was in 2020. >> tim, i do usually have a big lengthy windup question, but i just wanted to hear from you. sorry if i threw you. i take your point. it's something i observed about biden. he so values the inside game, and he does it at the expense of an outside game, right? so he sort of held -- he didn't attack them because he was so committed to the inside game. i guess my question for you is do we have enough evidence that there will be enough attention paid to the accomplishment to sort of counter -- does he get enough credit for what he gets

done to make up for the fact that he only plays an inside game with these guys? >> it's a fair concern. and there is a lot of reporting. steve was talking about to johnson a lot over the past two months. it doesn't happen by magic. does he get enough credit? i don't know. the good news is they're going to have a lot of money to make this case on tv this year and in paid ads, and they're going to have to do it, and maybe should have been doing it a little earlier. i think you can nitpick on strategy there. but they're going have to make the case for themselves because it isn't joe biden's strength. he's got a ton of strengths, but making that forceful case for his record, i think there are a lot of people that don't know about it. but we've seen some of it. like their very first ad is talking about the context of infrastructure, kind of making fun of trump. trump had infrastructure week every week. we actually got it done. making that case over and over again this year is going to be their job and our job and the job of their surrogates and news reporters that are just speaking the truth. because that's what's happened.

>> katty, i think they would say it's us, right? it's not their fault. they make the case all the time. they certainly did it forcefully in the state of the union address. but that we're partly to blame. i think that's a fair critique of us. what is the reaction around the world, though? i think this was an open and fair and legitimate question about who we are as a country who is in charge. i think speaker johnson is -- i don't know if enigma is too strong, but he was a bit of an unknown quantity. what was the reaction around the world that this passed? >> yeah, i'd kind of loved to have been in some of those hearings that speaker johnson had with bill burns and other top officials, because i've been wondering for months how do you make the case to the american public that this is worth doing, and they clearly managed to make the case. i guess the reaction is a sigh of relief. to some extent, the delay is a problem in and of itself. the president is right. it took too long. and that delay points to american political divisions

that have made this difficult to do and what else might they make difficult to do. so i think there is a general sense that america is a little fragile at the moment. and can you rely on it to be there in the way that we have relied on it to be there for decades? and yes, great celebrations, particularly of course in kyiv and on the front lines in ukraine that this weaponry which already is in europe is going to be there fast. but it's raised people's doubts about the long-term viability of the american security umbrella. >> justifiably, right. tim miller, thank you for spending time with us today. katty sticks around a little bit longer. after the break, the world is watching as an american ex-president and a presumptive republican presidential nominee is on trial. there are some pretty seed di stuff. we'll bring you the view from abroad, next.

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students... students of any age, from anywhere. using our technology to power different ways of learning. so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ♪ donald trump is back in court in new york, one of the highest criminal cases in u.s. continues. >> it is the first time that a former u.s. president has to answer to criminal charges. >> the historic hush money trial of donald trump that got under way with the arduous process of selecting a jury to hear the case. >> it was a jam-packed first day on the job for the new york jury tasked with a historic responsibility. >> in donald trump's criminal trial in new york, a tabloid executive continuing his

evidence has data helping mr. trump's 2016 campaign, including a catch and kill scheme to bury negative stories. >> the world is watching, and the facts of donald trump's first criminal trial is reported by news outlets shows like this one from all over the world. it's a reminder that the stakes are high for the rest of the world too, right, as the historic case against an american ex-president and the presumptive republican nominee for president in 2024 plays out in a courtroom in manhattan. in russia, according to bbc news, quote, court proceedings were consistently linked to the race for the white house by several outlets. the host of rossia, 60-minute political talk show says the only trump's enemies had to defeat him in the election was to imprison him. it's the same kind of thing you hear from trump and his allies right here. joining us for "der spiegel," the german news magazine and website widely circulated all

over europe and america, pitski is here. he has been here for 30 years covering american politics and news. katty is also back with a global audience. i feel like i practiced it and got it right. did i get it right? >> so many different ways to say it. >> no, there is only one way. you -- tell me how big this story is in germany, in europe. >> i can't speak for all germans, and our audience. it's the top story every day when we write about the trial, it's the number one trial for traffic, for subscriptions, for circulation. and not just clicks, but also see in realtime how people engage and that people read the stories longer. they read all the way through, which doesn't usually happen. we're amazed but not surprised. it's a really important story because germany has this weird

relationship with the united states and with trump. we all have ptsd from the four years he was in the white house. so everybody is really looking at this. and it doesn't stop. i mean, the trial gets everything. it has all the drama. the first six days were even more than we expected, you know, with jury selection, and the poor guy who set himself on fire. but it's more than that. it's really about the future of this country. who is going to be in the white house. next time. and that affects us in germany very much. >> tell me about the ptsd. >> well, you know, germany and america, it's always this -- i have friends who bitch about this country automatic the time, if i can say that. >> please. >> complain and find all the faults because you do everything right that we want to do, but you do it all wrong. but they can't wait to plan the next trip to new york.

>> yeah. >> so it's always this back and forth. and when trump came into office, it sort of crystallized that. and it also this balance got totally out of whack. he brought up the ugly -- you talk about this on this show all the time. and it's you know, it's really people after 2020, people said okay, we need a break. it's like you're in a dysfunctional relationship. you can't stop. you don't know how to get out, but you suffer. and it was the same way with germany. we've been tied to you guys since world war ii. we liberated us, but we resent you for it. there are all these different layers. and then trump comes in. he personifies everything for us. so it's been -- we're all tired. >> yeah. >> you must be tired. you know. >> tell me what for you has jumped out? because as you said, we've been living with this for so long

now. what in terms of what you heard so far surprised you? >> nothing really surprises me anymore about him. i was there when he came down that escalator. so every time there is like boiling frogs. every time there is another thing happening, oh, okay, okay. what really surprises me now how the prosecution, how they put everything together. like the opening statements were very tight, very short, but it was a narrative that you could follow. and for the first time we've talked about this for months. and since the arraignment, since the indictment a year ago. now we can really see this coming to life through people like nobody knows david pecker in germany. but if you tell our readers that this is the guy who knows the secrets, this is the guy with the vault, the safe, then

they -- it's just amazing the depth of the alleged depravity behind all this. like listening to david pecker talk about this. we knew about catch and kill and how it worked. we read ron farrow and all that. but to really see how these stories were launched by michael cohen and by trump, it's shocking. nothing like this could ever happen in germany, i hope. this guy would be in jail already in germany. so -- >> amazing. >> so there is the shock of what's really happening, but also at the same time, you know, you go to court, and it's like this courthouse, the history. it's like this dingy place, this courtroomy harvey weinstein was. and it brings the story to life, everything that we've been writing about for so long, you

know. and the miller report and the impeachments, and all that stuff. but this is real life, you know. and i think that settles in with him too. >> yeah. i think that's right. >> it must be, because psychologically, this is fascinating to see him sit in that courtroom and just fully crumble and then come out and do his little spiel in his playpen outside in the hallways. >> it's a spectacle. it's a spectacle. >> it's a spectacle, but it's more than a spectacle. it's more than hush money. it's more than stormy daniels. it's about election interference. you know, if he gets back into the white house and he says putin, you can do what you want, berlin is six hn miles from the ukrainian boarder. that's shorter than north carolina, charlotte from here. that's really scary. >> that's something katty talks about on the show a lot. we're going give katty the last word on the other side of a very

short break. don't go anywhere. t break. don't go anywhere. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope

to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month. your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty. weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month. just $0.33 a day.

and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. katty, we pick up a lot of this intelligence from you as well that the world is watching. and in some ways, it's sort of beyond shock and awe and almost aghast. >> yeah, i slightly wish that we weren't in this situation where the world was so fascinated by a former porn star and a president cooped up in a courtroom. and the awful things and was

focusing on all these incredible things that happen in this country all the time, the amazing amount of innovation and the art and the science and the medical breakthroughs. and yet we have to watch what is happening in that courtroom because it really is, as we were just hear, it's not just about stormy daniels and those hush money payments. it's about democracy and the rule of law and the future of this country. >> katty kay, mark pitzke, thank you very much. we'll wle be right back. latinums i have upped my dish game. i just scrape... load... and i'm done. in that dishwasher? in that dishwasher. only platinum plus is packed with more dawn to remove up to 100% of grease and food residue. get the highest standard of clean, even in your machine. clean enough for ya? yeah. scrape, load, done. cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently.

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