assume that i can, so maybe i will. we know you will, madison. and i would certainly have a margarita with you any day of the week. a fantastic reminder. not to underestimate those who are different. that message takes us off the air tonight. on that really beautiful and important note, i wish you a very, very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. see you at the end of tomorrow. tonight on all in. >> he is a structured penalty and he needs cash now. >> is this the time to step up?

he is good for the money. >> new court ordered restrictions. >> is there any effort on the part of your team to cur this money through another country? saudi arabia? russia? and would trump's support for an abortion ban means for women and the election. >> the number of weeks now, people are agreeing and i'm thinking in terms of that. >> plus, senator brown on the big money lining up to remove him from the senate. and don't look now. new polling on what sure looks like a biden bump. >> i'll be darned. that's amazing. >> when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, we are just over a week into the general election now that donald trump and joe biden are their party's presumptive nominees. the president is now really

campaigning. traveling to five states in the last ten days touting his record. today he was in houston, texas for campaign reception where he spoke about the booming economy. and told a joke getting laughs on the trail. i know not everyone is feeling enthusiasm. a defeated looking man said mr. president, i'm being crushed by debt. i had to say i'm sorry donald, i can't help you. of course, while the president has been slinging zingers, all eyes have been on his republican opponent who owes more than half a billion dollars in legal fines. and the clock is ticking on the largest of those. the 454 million-dollar judgment in new york. finding trump liable. there are four days remaining. he has to secure the bond to avoid paying the actual judgment while he appeals. in a filing earlier this week,

trump's lawyers claimed it was. they suggested the problem is of trump's own making since he fraudulently inflated the value of his properties which he now needs to use his collateral. good point. the judge ordered the trump organization to inform its financial monitor. the order enhancing the monitor's powers requires the company to inform her of any financial disclosures requested or required. any information provided in response to such request. any representations made by trump organization in connection with securing such bonds. any personal guarantees made by any of the defendants and any obligations that the trump organization required by the

surety. certainly seems like a good idea. have to say at a moment when donald trump is under so much pressure and so vulnerable and obviously desperate. he has been deemed too untrustworthy to do business in new york state. he is expecting to be bailed out by the appellate court. his lawyers are pushing for them to come in and say he doesn't have to pay claiming in a letter that having to come up with a bond would cause trump quote irreparable harm. i bet it would. but if he doesn't get the answer he wants from that appeals court, that could be today or tomorrow, i guess tomorrow. if he cannot secure the bond by monday, okay? the wheels are already in motion for the state of new york to start seizing trump's assets. that is how this work. the new york attorney general letitia james has formally registered the $454 million against trump in westchest ere county where trump owns two

valuable properties. quote, it will allow james to more easily secure liens should she decide to do so on the trump national golf club westchester and the mostly undeveloped 212-acre seven springs estate. trump's golf club in westchester is in briar cliff. features a golf course, 101- foot waterfall. 75,000 square foot clubhouse. the town is valued the property at $15.8 million. which is in the grand scheme of things not a ton of money. now trump's seven springs estate was a major focus of the attorney general's case. with the judge ruling that trump wildly inflated its value. in 2015, the property was appraised for $56.5 million. trump claimed it was worth as much as $291 million. it is the lower evaluation i think that will be counted toward the penalty. of course, the judgment against trump is also registered in

manhattan where the verdict came down and where the ex- president owns trump tower valued at $99 billion. an office building at 40 wall street, a condominium building called trump world tower at $19.8 million. the attorney general we should note is not even limited to new york. mar-a-lago, trump national golf resort in miami. donald trump's property portfolio. the trump organization at least in new york as a functioning independent ongoing concern is kaput. it has a federal judge as a minder. on top of all that, here's the thing. he is hemorrhaging cash in his legal fees. we have new filings with the federal election commission. they show that the save america political action committee, that is the kind of, i mean, for lack of a better word slush

fund. they dropped $6.9 million in legal fees in february alone. that comes out to a whopping $238,000 per day. think about all the lawyers. all the cases and all the filings. this is basically what trump's presidential campaign is all about. he is now bleeding dry. david, let me start with you. i will start with a question i was sort of asking myself yesterday. which is, i have been through this enough times i always think he will get out of it

somehow. there is some favorable judge, some way out. or the appeals court will say yeah, you can't do this. like, what is your read about how up against it he is? having covered him now for decades including when he was really squeezed in bankruptcy. >> we have a potential president of the united states who would be beholden to someone we have never seen before. the framers of the constitution were careful to insulate the president from foreign money and money from state governments. first of all, he will try to

hide that. donald trump nine years ago said to everybody, you know, more than $10 billion and i don't need any money to campaign. and i won't be beholden to anybody. the exact opposite will occur if he gets back to the white house. >> i want to emphasize this point. we have been saying here. it is the opposite of that. he is beholden. he is wildly beholden. he is desperate. to anyone who would write a big enough check. to that end, i was a little confused with the technical details about this sort of assigned financial monitor. it makes sense, the reason you have been paying the penalty,

you have been guilty of fraud. >> remember the business itself is a fraudster. in addition to donald trump and what has been held in this case. here's the thing. and i just want to say to david's point. this is a different rabbit and it is a different hat. it is because there have been findings against the company and its own criminal liability. and now against donald trump. the purpose of the monitor is exactly as you are imagining, chris. it is to say we can't trust the thing you say or do. we have to protect all the interests of those who can be harmed including in this case, what the judge is basically saying is look, there is a finding against you, we will

make sure we can account for the money and nothing happens. >> those are above board transactions. it is also the case to zoom in on an important detail, david. they need the bond by monday. to say the bond stands in for the penalty during the course of the appeal. most legal experts i talked to said there is really not much to appeal here. they don't have a very strong appeal. when ever that runs, the actual amount of money will be necessary. like, the full will have to come up with $454 million at some point. the bond won't do eventually. right? >> if donald strategically files bankruptcy, the deep state made me do this.

that will only delay. it will not prevent the payment of what is owed here. and because donald didn't prepare, donald two years ago when all this began said that he expected that the kangaroo court's terrible fascist markists would hit him with big penalties so did he prepare for it? did he act prudently? of course not. donald is like a student who parties all weekend and wakes up monday morning and goes oh, my term paper is due at noon. >> and what is striking is having read their filing that we can't, it did feel like the student who hasn't done their homework. the response is this is on you. you brought yourself to this position. >> you don't get to get out of liability by saying it hurts you to be liable. that's like not how this works. >> that's precisely the

argument they are making in the filing. >> exactly. which is why i think a lot of us are saying first of all, you are trying to be protected against protecting those you have been found to owe money to. right? that is its own. that's what the bond is. they are trying to stop even having to have a bond. what the attorney general is doing is protecting properties by getting a lien saying i will make sure everybody knows if you file bankruptcy, we get to take first. we get paid first so we are paid back for this liability before any of your other creditors. all of this is very bad for donald trump is the bottom line. but you don't get out of this is bad for me. when you are responsible for creating what is bad for you. >> on the bankruptcy point, which seems an option, again, i am not a bankruptcy law by any stretch of the imagination, but my sense is that these kinds of civil penalties are

particularly difficult to wash out. they get first in line for the creditors. >> right, if donald were to file bankruptcy, it would be entirely strategic to delay things because he starts off with an automatic 45 day stay. to get to the day after the election, i pointed out alex jones, it has been more than two years since he filed bankruptcy and he has not paid a penny to the sandy hook plaintiffs. >> that's a good point. all all of this is about delay. all of this is to get yourself elected president of the united states so you can deal with the multiple civil penalties against you, the multiple criminal charges and indictments that are hanging over your head and sort of declare yourself king? >> well, this goes back to your point of both is there an interest for donald trump?

doesn't help him with state court. >> it keeps moving its way through. >> that does not help him. but i would also say this. donald trump, as much as i think david is right about how he could spin it. i also think for the, can you imagine the attack ads? with all of the statements he has made about what a great businessman he is and now he can't come up with half a billion dollars when he's got so many billions of dollars? >> i agree. and it is a fascinating thing to contemplate. it might be his best way to delay. a long night of the soul ahead this weekend. thank you very much. coming up, fresh off a well received state of the union, the biden campaign hits a new gear, new evidence that things might be moving in biden's favor, next. ing in biden's favor, next.

voters are an anxious bunch. donald trump is shown slightly ahead of joe biden. and the stakes are high. the position of the folks in the biden campaign has always been that everyone needs to calm down. that basically, there is evidence we have seen the last two weeks in favor of that theory. it has been just over a week since trump and biden secured

their respective nominees, two weeks since president biden's powerful state of the union address that left republicans hurting so bad they are now musing about just never allowing him to give another one. since then, donald trump's viable statements and extremist policies are getting a much higher level media coverage. despite saying and doing the same thing for 40 years now, his ohio rally over the weekend has dominated the news cycle. it is now in people's faces. and it does look like americans are remembering why they do not like the guy. this is going to be a close race either way. recent polling shows biden gaining or leading ground. his approval is nudging up ever so slightly. again, just a little bit. there should be no illusions. this will be a close race. likely to be decided by i don't know, 100,000 or so voters. but we know there is early evidence voters have not been paying attention until recently

has something to it. tim miller served as spokesman for the rnc. and they both join me now. now, cornell, i want to be clear, polling is noisy. we are taking snapshots in time. although, it being noisy doesn't stop people from freaking out. just to be clear. it is early in this. but what do you think basically broadly of that theory? which i really do think is the one that the biden folks have been telling people about their position as we are now entering for real the general election. >> and you know, chris, it is also a thing you and i have been having a conversation about the last couple of months as well. when you look at the polling data, look, i made this for a while, the polling, the early polling showing biden is a lot closer to his floor than a ceiling. while trump is a lot closer to his ceiling than his floor. what that means for laymen is biden has a lot more room for growth than trump and when the

campaign is engaged and voters pay attention, not to mention when the biden campaign starts using its sizable resource advantage they have right now over trump and republicans to message and tell their story. again, campaigns about who has a good story to tell. and biden has a good story to tell. i think you will see movement. don't fall in love or hate with the polling numbers. because those numbers will continue to change. polling is not predictive. >> the hobby horse i have been riding, tim, if you will indulge me. because he is so uniquely odious, you can't actually remember how bad he is until he is in front of your face all the time. i really mean that.

and i thought the ohio coverage was instructive in this respect. it has been a long time since trump doing a very trump thing at a rally produced that kind of news cycle. but i think we will see more of that. and people don't like that. what do you think? >> i concur with your hobby horse. they called me rain cloud on campaign. i'm pessimistic by nature. but i agree with your hobby horse, the more trump is bad for trump. i have evidence, his numbers tick down. i have anecdotal evidence from the swing voter groups. nine years of this evidence. they will call me after a crazy thing. it's like man, we can't do this with this guy anymore. isn't he terrible? and you know, three weeks later, well, i'm a little worried about the border. if he is not in their face,

every minute, they start to forget how much they hate him. and so, we have to suffer through having trump space in all of our faces as much as possible for the next nine months. >> where do you see the places you think, if you are advising the biden campaign on messaging? so, there is a sort of record it has been interesting. hammering some of the themes about future policies like a $10,000 tax credit for new homeowners. and things like that. a minimum tax for billionaires, these are popular policies. they poll well. do you think that kind of meat and potatoes stuff is where they need to be focusing and hammering? >> it is all of the above. look, one of the things i think they have to do, look, where is he struggling the most from his 2020 performance? he is struggling most with his performance with younger voters. and chris, what younger voters constantly say is they don't

see or they haven't heard any of the things he has done. i will always remind people going into 2012, voters were not aware we needed them for the obama campaign. they said we voted for change and we don't feel or see any change. but we had a story to tell. and i think with these younger voters, biden has a story to tell. look another round of student loan forgiveness right? another round of environmental policy. and, infrastructure policy going into environmental issues. he does have a good story to tell. he has to tell those stories and then someone famously said, elections are about the future. then he has to pivot and talk about his future plans for building america. while also to their point, contrasting and reminding people over and over again that donald trump is not only a terrible person, but not where most of the americans are in their issues. >> one of the things mentioned was the cash advantage. the fund raising advantage.

and we have been covering this desperation trump has, the burning $232,000 a day on legal fees. there is this long back and forth about the rnc will use the rnc as a vessel to pay his legal bills. and his campaign person said absolutely not. well today reporting on the joint fund raising agreement with the republican national committee directs donations to his campaign and a political action committee that pays them for the legal bills before the rnc gets a cut. according to a fund raising invitation obtained by the associated press. so spoiler alert, looks like they will be skimming off the top for the legal bills slush fund. >> with his daughter-in-law installed there, or the fact that the pac he was running, spending over six figures a day on his legal fund. the superpac. so yeah. they are running out of cash. look, i am always of the view

that money matters a little bit less of the presidential level. there is just long diminishing returning here. that said, there's 100 million- dollar gap between biden and trump. the gap gets so big. >> my bigger thing is the dependence hurts you politically. you look weak. >> trump is doing that. >> still ahead, republicans are placing big bets on candidates with enormous personal wealth for the senate. we will talk to brown coming up. talk to brown coming up.

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the focus extends to the candidates themselves. as the new york time points out this morning, an awful lot of millionaires are helping republicans take the senate this cycle. like former coal baron jim justice. hedge fund ceo dave mccormick

in pennsylvania. commercial lending executive eric in wisconsin. and the working state of ohio, republicans just nominated a millionaire car dealer named bernie moreno to face three term senator sherrod brown. he has dedicated his life to service. $260,000 net worth. he is running for reelection in a state donald trump won twice. by some estimates he is among the most vulnerable democrats running for resection. and the stakes could not be higher. senator sherrod brown, the guy i first profiled when i was 26 years old and he was running for senate the first time joins me now. senator, it is good to see you. >> that was a great article. >> thank you. >> it was fun talking to you just about. where you were comeing from and what you were doing. i saw you with the future.

i didn't know msnbc, but i knew something big. >> i appreciate that. you know, the thing i was thinking about is you, i was watching some of the debates in the primary race, the republicans there. i read a profile of the junior senator and one thing really striking to me is that the vision you had. the politics you had and the policy agenda you had. to preserve manufacturing and strong good union wage jobs and fight for working people in the state of ohio, you were very much against nafta and the pro free trade census at the time. you were very much for industrial policy and helping folks. but, that vision has really come around from being this kind of weird thing at the margins to the center of notaeums the democratic.

>> i went toonny johnny appleseed and worked with the sons and daughters of steel workers. gm auto workers, and carpenters, electricians. those jobs began to leave. they went to find the cheapest wages in alabama and mississippi and politicians of both parties sold them out in the trade agreements and it was clear the damage it did to the communities. to these families. to the sons and daughters i went to school with. it is clear the democrats are back where we should be fighting for workers and manufacturing. and that is what i have always believed. and it is what people want to hear in ohio. they want to see their senator do. >> now, it is funny we read your net worth. it was reported in the new york times. but you will be facing someone with deep pockets and it will be a very expensive race. i imagine they will spend a lot of money and there will be superpacs with people writing seven figure checks i would

imagine. in your race, what do you see as a sort of key, the key fight in this or the key way you understand the contrast with a guy who is going to have a lot of money behind him and the wind at his back in some ways? >> well, he is a guy that is trying to buy the senate seat. he is a guy that clearly looks out for himself. he has actually said i'm not going to work with anybody. i disagree with in the senate. which means, you know, i work with people i disagree with. we get the pact act to help 10,000 veterans already in ohio. hundreds of thousands. we got a pension bill, 100,000 workers pensions were safe, facing 50, 60% cuts. we passed an infrastructure bill which is putting hundred of thousands of trade labor union card carrying trade union members, building trades people. all of that. and, he really takes it to the next level. that ohio passed as you know by 13 points. you covered it. he thinks he knows better and

that is what some of these candidates are like. he thinks he knows better. he is still for a national abortion ban. ignoring what the voters of ohio want with no exceptions in six weeks, no exceptions. so, the contours of this race are clear. and only with 2 on your side, i don't really subscribe to the left and right progressive conservative. people know who i am. they know it is only whose side are you on and i keep making those fights. >> you have been doing a lot of work. i have been watching this on train safety. speaking about sort of working across the aisle. you and jd vance have been working on a rail safety bill. after that train derailment in east palestine, ohio. that bill has still not come up yet. it seemed to have a lot of support. but i know the railroad companies have been fighting it tooth or nail and i also know you spent a lot of time in east palestine as the senator of those folks. how are those folks doing? >> i think it was the eighth or

ninth time i went back last week, they want to get their lives back to normal. they continue to do health monitoring. because people don't really know their arms broke out in rashes. norfolk southern has talked a good game. they have to commit to long term health benefits. it is exposure to that stuff nobody really knows what it means. norfolk southern essentially did a controlled burn that put this stuff into the air that didn't need to be as it turned out. so, this is a company. it is typical wall street model. they laid off a third of their work force, they paid a huge bonuses and stock buybacks, they cut back on inspections and on heat sensors for the wheel bearings. and look what happened. and they continue to get their way far too often. with congress. we will pass this bill. i'm hopeful it is in the next

month or so. the lobby. it is up and down. you know that. >> senator sherrod brown who is going for reelection in the state of ohio against bernie moreno. >> thanks for having me. we have a huge grass roots effort. so thanks chris. >> you bet, thanks a lot. still to come, a genuine campaign surprise i did not see coming. what donald trump's candid moment about an abortion ban. why it could have massive implications ahead. have massi implications ahead. i recommend pronamel repair. with new pronamel repair mouthwash you can enhance that repair beyond brushing. they work great together.

if you happen to be a frequent viewer, you might be familiar with this chart. the picture paints is about as clear as it gets. there was a record spike in violent crime under donald trump in 2020. shoots up to the left there. has been a consistent decline since president joe biden took office. the thing about crime data, it takes a long time to aggregate. the chart is based on preliminary information. these stats trickle out before the fbi drops its final report. the bureau just released more data. new data from 2023. when all is said and done, we would have likely the largest one year decline in murder that

has ever been recorded. it doesn't seem like that message is getting through. at least not for now. generally related to media consumption. local news in particular has a number of mostly financial incentives. it is especially true for violent crime. of course, right wing cable news is an obvious political thing. >> crime is out of control. >> crime is completely out of control. >> crime is out of control. >> crime is out of control. >> crime is out of control. >> crime is out of control. >> crime is out of control. >> i'm afraid to go to the mall. >> i think the media focus is one reason why this is not getting through. but some of the responsibility

falls on the biden administration itself. which until recently hasn't done a great job articulating the tangible successes on this front. which is why it is very interesting to me. when earlier this week, the biden harris white house released this statement touting the new data from the fbi. and taking credit for americans being safer. quote thanks to the american rescue plan, we made the largest ever federal investment in fighting and preventing crime at any time in our history. this record investment in crime reduction is delivering results. biden white house is not just touting the decline in crime, but they are actually taking credit. they are pointing to legislation investments as the cause. it is a pretty darn good message od message and it's ready to go our cost for shipping, were cut in half just like that go to shipstation/tv and get 2 months free ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a

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here's the thing to know about the republican party and abortion. they are going to ban it wherever they can, however they can. that means if donald trump wins, and the republicans also win the house and the senate, there will be a national abortion ban. i promise. earlier in this campaign, i thought, donald trump had enough political instinct to say he would just leave it to the states and if he won, he

would sign a national ban anyway. and now, looks like he is not smart enough to lie about it. because he basically came out and endorsed a 15-week ban in two recent interviews including on radio this week. >> the number of weeks now, people are agreeing on 15 and i'm thinking in terms of that, and it will come out to something that is very reasonable. but people are really, even hard liners are agreeing, seems to be 15 weeks. seems to be a number that people are agreeing with. >> biden campaign responded with a statement from amanda, the texas woman 18 weeks pregnant when her water broke making a miscarriage inevitable. she couldn't get an abortion until she started getting

sepsis: i. we have an opinion columnist with the new york times, michelle. there is something to me that perfectly encapsulates the dynamic of abortion bans. of donald trump musing about what the weak number is going to be. there was reporting. it is so utterly attached from the reality. and embodies the live control over women's lives that is represented by this movement. >> and complete contempt. i'm sure that jump has not begin two seconds of thoughts to the fact that typically it will pick up all sorts of lethal anomalies. happens at 20 weeks. i just don't think, i think

donald trump knows how. we are seeing the stories pop up in states all over the country. and if republicans have their way, that would be the law of the land in the entire united states. but imagine having your doctor kind of force you to go into sepsis. turn you away from the emergency room because donald trump picked a number out of a hat. because he came up with what he thought was a compromise between steve bannon and mike johnson. all the people around him saying this. so it must be reasonable. >> and what's striking to me, though, my fear was that he would just lie. i really thought this. i thought he would just say we're not doing a national abortion ban. though he knew full well that the republican party would pass one. and would insist on one if they

won power. and what is clear to me is those folks inside the party don't trust him enough. like there is clearly pressure happening for him to commit to something publicly and we are seeing it play out in realtime. >> so, i am always a little bit reluctant to psychoanalyze donald trump too much. sometimes he says things because he is under pressure. sometimes though because he is a compulsive lier, he is also pretty honest about whatever is in his mind at any particular moment. and so, you know, whether this was strategic capitulation or again, just the musing of somebody who is surrounded by people who are all completely committed to a total abortion ban is difficult to say. but you're right that this was always going to happen. and you know, again, it is not just the 15-week abortion ban. we have next week i believe a supreme court argument about

the abortion pill. about the fda approval of the abortion pill. and remember, this is because of a really shocking ruling by the judge, one of the judges donald trump appointed in texas now going to be heard by judges he appointed to the supreme court. and so you know, we could end up seeing the various sorts of restrictions and roadblocks that go even beyond 15 weeks. >> yeah. and on the national ban, to return your point, i agree with you on the psycho analyzing. the republican committee of house republicans released their sort of budget plan that includes a 15-week national abortion ban. kellyanne conway talked about it. the sort of kind of consensus view of the institutional party is. cooing around to that. but it is also the case on the mifepristone, they have gone and volunteers themselves saying we want you to uphold this crazy lower court

decision. and then today, there's four members of congress. republicans, who are mad about the department of veteran's affairs making ivf available to service members. we are writing to express our strong objections. here is the quote. the money quote. ivf is morally dubious and should not be subsidized by the american taxpayer. it is well known ivf treatment result ins a surplus of embryos. the best ones are tests. this is the position of a huge part of the republican base, even though they just spent weeks running away from it and pretending they know nothing about it after the alabama decision. >> right. that's why when a number of people in the senate tried to pass protections for ivf, it was the same senate republicans

who have been saying oh no. nobody wants to take ivf away. who wouldn't let those protections go through. and so yeah. and speaking of the republican study committee, the republican study committee has endorsed the life begins at conception act. which would enshrine the same fetal person hood law used to ban ivf or restrict it. >> do you think we will get a campaign where abortion will be hugely consequential in this campaign. but do you think we will have an actual like honest we are for a national abortion ban, no we're not? i want to codify roe v. wade. i'm donald trump, i want an abortion ban. >> i do too. my guess is donald trump will try to have it both ways. you might say yeah, 15 weeks.

he will say oh yeah, we will come up with a compromise that everyone will be happy with. he is very slippery like that. and it is important i think for democrats to nail him down as much as possible. because people still have a hard time believing that donald trump cares about abortion. and the point is not what he cares about. the point is what he has done and is going to do. >> that's right. and every state in the union, new york, illinois, california, massachusetts, like, they are going to do it. if they have the power. they are going to do it. it is coming for you. michelle, thank you very much. . michelle goldberg, thank you very much. that is "all in" on this thursday night. alish wagner tonight begins with ali velshi. >> that's an important point. for those who think roe doesn't effect us in california or places like that what you call the orconsense of the gop developing into a 15-week