that does it for me. be sure to catch the katie phang show. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> america's hospitals are already straining. in hard-hit washington state,

providence regional everett has seen double digit cases of coronavirus. the medical director worries about what's coming. >> what do we do if we have a limited number of ventilaors and more patients than ventilators available? what do we do if we have more patients than beds available? >> that was four years ago today. and yet, republicans ask, are you better off than you were then? you know, back when countless people were dying, millions were losing their jobs and the economy was in free fall? also tonight, the trump gang takeover of the rnc. installing lackies and family members, all of them election deniers. and card-carrying members of the cult. plus, there's a good chance that you or your kids spent hours on tiktok. now, after a bipartisan house vote today, it could be on the verge of being banned in the usa. but we begin tonight with

reality and a question. the reality is this, after last night, it is officially a trump versus biden race. and now the question, it's the one question trump supporters keep wanting to ask. so okay, let's ask it. are you better off now than you were four years ago? you know, the old ronald reagan query from the 1980 campaign. well, four years ago, to the day, this was our world. >> breaking news tonight, president trump declaring the coronavirus a national emergency. the move freeing billions for the fight as america contracts to slow the rapidly-spreading pandemic. the number of cases in the u.s. rising to near 2,000. at least 41 deaths. all schools closing and n a growing number of states. millions of students impacted. houses of worship suspending services. landmarks, theme parks, sporting events and concerts shutting down. the chaos at grocery store lines where they stretch out the door, shelves cleared out.

>> covid-19 was officially declared a pandemic exactly four years ago. and things haven't been the same since. it was a scary time. and for the long haulers and those with elderly loved ones, it still is four years later. what made the outbreak especially dangerous was the fact that america's president at the time, our germaphobe in chief, told reporter bob woodward he knew how bad it was, but he didn't tell us. here is donald trump on february 7th, 2020, just two days after the senate voted to acquit him on both articles in his first of two impeachment trials. >> it goes through air, bob. that's always tougher than the touch. you know, the touch you don't have to touch things, right? but the air, you just breathe the air. that's how it's passed. and so that's a very tricky one. that's a very delicate one. it's also more deadly than your -- you know, your -- even your strenuous flus. >> so if trump said that in

february, that means he knew that the virus was a lot more serious than he let on publicly, even before america went into lockdown. but wood ward didn't share that bomb shell until six months later when his new book came out. after the u.s. surpassed 6 million cases. in all that time, trump lied to the american people about the dangers of covid. >> it's going to disappear. one day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. >> it's fading away. it's going to fade away. so, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether it's ultra violate or just very powerful light, and i think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it. supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. then i see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection

inside or almost a cleaning. >> wow. well, as we mark the four-year anniversary of the pandemic, we must note that since march of 2020, more than 1 million people have died in the u.s. due to covid. we just need to sit with this number. for the love of god, we should at least remember it. because history could easily repeat itself in a very bad way. as of last night, trump and biden are officially their party's presumptive nominees. so we need to take a hard look at these candidates. their records. their accomplishments. and the choice ahead of us. and, yes, where they stand on the safety and well being of every individual american. we're also in a unique position to evaluate these men because both of them have been president. we can compare their actual presidencies rather than vote based on their promises. which era do you want to relive, the chaotic, frankly four years of crazy tweets, migrant kids

ripped from their parent arms, random fights with our allies and a million bodies on the ground due to covid. the bodies stacked up in refrigerated trucks because the hospitals ran out of room. the states fighting over ventilators. the old people dying by themselves and saying their good-byes on ipads, the economy literally collapsing and all of us stuck in our homes for a year? kids having to graduate from high school and college on zoom. or the biden era, where the president is old. yes, and set in his ways and some of his policies infuriating. but at least he's sane and a grown-up and capable of being reasoned with and pushed to change his policies. it is a serious question. does anybody think that reliving the trump era is a good idea or something america would even survive? what about the americans who didn't survive. what would they think? trump didn't want to deal with a public health catastrophe. he didn't want to take the blame or get bad press.

so instead, he spent months pushing crack science. taking advice from snake oil salesmen instead of public health experts. he mainstreamed the anti-vax movement which is going so strong today that we are facing measles outbreaks among unvaccinated children. rfk jr. is back embarrassing his family and running as an anti-vax presidential candidate. trump turned against vaccines even though it was his own operation warp speed that spawned the ones for covid. he elevated extremist politicians like ron desantis along with junk science and disinformation and horse dewormer, fake covid cures. let's face it, the trump administration fueled the crisis and botched america's response. and that is the main reason he was not re-elected. and they knew he would lose because of it. by june of 2020, even trump knew that his handling of covid was the reason he was not going to win. so what did he do right before the election? he unleashed roger stone, his

sleazy friend with the nixon tattoo on his back who was later convicted of witness tampering and lying to congress. to announce the big lie. >> let's just hope we're celebrating. i suspect it will be -- i really do suspect it will be up in the air. when that happens the key thing to do is to claim victory. possession is nine tenths of the law. we won. sorry. [ bleep ] you. you're wrong. joining me now is matthew dowd, former republican strategist and dr. uche blk blackstock and author of "legacy" a black physician reckons with racism in medicine. thank you both for being here. dr., uche blackstock, as a physician, as a medical professional, how do you feel in your spirit when people literally seem to have forgotten the million covid dead and try to remember the trump era as somehow a good time. >> well, joy, thank you so much

for having me on. and watching that compilation of videos was just so incredibly sobering. i will tell you that that leak was the first time in my life i felt scared to go to work. it wasn't just me. it was all of my colleagues because we had an uncontrollable virus and a president who could not be controlled and who was not following the public health -- the knowledge, the foundation of knowledge that's out there about how viruses spread. and so, you know, it was -- so incredibly scary. many of us just -- we get home from work and have to disrobe and we couldn't touch our family members. and then at work, we were caring for our very, very sick patients. and they were coming in actually all different ages. all different medical problems. we were seeing kind of devastation that we had never, ever seen before, not in our life time and even our older colleagues had never, ever seen before. so, it is so heart breaking that so many of those deaths could

have been prevented if that knowledge had been disseminated and if the virus had been acted on in an evidence-based manner, in a way that we actually knew we had the tools. they just were not rolled out in the way they should have been. >> yeah. let me play -- i just want to play this, another piece of trump. this is donald trump. he was talking about trying -- matthew dowd, to get a ship full of people who might have been impacted by covid, to keep them on the ship, to keep the number of dead down so that his -- so he wouldn't be harmed politically by their deaths. take a listen. >> they would like to have the people come off. i would rather have the people stay, but i go with them. i told them to make the final decision. i would rather -- because i like the numbers being where they are, i don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault. and it wasn't the fault of the people on the ship either. okay. it wasn't their fault either. and they're mostly americans.

so, i can live either way with it. i would rather have them stay on personally. >> matthew dowd, you are working republican politics back during the george w. bush era. i read a lot of things about george w. bush. i can't imagine him saying that. i can't imagine bill clinton saying that. i can't imagine barack obama or any other american president saying that. i can't imagine ronald reagan saying that. really was against him. but the reality is you know better than any of the rest of us here having worked at the presidential level the fiduciary duty of a president is to protect the american people from things like a pandemic. that is when a president is supposed to step up the most. it is when they lead the most and unite the country. what you just saw there was something other than that. can you explain to me how if 9/11 changed all of our lives and the way we travel and everything about our lives when we get on a plane, how is it that people have blown off the fact that donald trump utterly failed at that fundamental duty of a president and think he

should be president again? >> well, i think this conversation is so important. and it leads us to the bigger part of this conversation, which is the foundations of democracy have actually shaken because of this. because democracy depends on the idea that we all agree on the common good. that we all agree that there's some common good that our leaders are supposed to actually help achieve based on a common set of facts. now, george bush -- and i disagreed with him and broke with him related to the war and the aftermath of that. but george bush believed in the common good of the united states of america. and believed in the common set of facts. how he applied those we can argue with and we could debate and all of that. donald trump believes in neither one. donald trump does not believe in the common good. and donald trump does not believe in a common set of facts. and this health issue, you're so right, is one of the primary responsibilities of president is to protect us both from problems within our country and from

outside our country. and his only -- his unbelievable narcissism as evidenced by that clip shows that he has no idea or no even sense he wants to do that. and everything he's done since then is a manifestation of that personality trait or that what he believes in this. and this applies not only to health issues. this applies to belief in facts on the economy and this beliefs in facts related to global climate change, all of which the republicans dispute. i mean, they actually think people like dr. blackstock are the problem because they actually speak in facts and evidence and all that. and they've decided that they are an anti-science party. that's what they fundamentally decided here. that shakes our democracy. >> but the -- except when it comes to themselves, dr. blackstock because donald trump almost died from covid. mark meadows said in his book he came very close to death. when he did that stunt, that awful stunt when he came and

ripped his mask off in front of the white house, pulled his mask off standing on the balcony. he was typhoid trump, spreading covid to guests at the white house, secret service agents, he tried like a superhero and wanted to wear a superman shirt under his shirt but didn't throw his dignity out the window by doing that, he was treated with every experimental drug imaginable. he didn't take chances with his own health. he survived because of science. >> right. exactly. i mean, he had the privilege of knowing that as president of the united states he had access to every life-saving drug that was available for covid. at that time, the same couldn't have been said for all other americans. and so, that demonstration of irresponsibility was a powerfully negative message to send to the public. i remember seeing him in that video and saying he does not look good. that man is sweaty.

he is breathing very, very quickly. that took so much energy for him to get up there and just to show himself like that. but he was very, very lucky because even before he was infected with covid, i said to myself, if he gets covid, he is high risk. that man could die. and he was very lucky, very, very lucky that didn't happen to him. but it happened to so many other americans who did not have the access and the resources that the president of the united states has. >> you know, and matthew, i think about the cynical politicians he spawned. i mean, ron desantis barely got elected governor. but as governor, he wielded covid like a sword. he made sure that affluent and wealthy older floridians got the vaccine, but then with held it from others. popup places where people had to stand in line and nearly die trying to get these special secret cures, et cetera. he hired a surgeon general who is now allowing measles to spret in the state of florida, unmasked himself in front of

people who had cancer. who doesn't care if he causes them to be ill. he's unleashed this whole thing and then they lie that -- what do you think when you hear people then credit donald trump for the stimulus check they got to prevent themselves from falling completely under financially, that nancy pelosi gave them to save them from trump's failure and then they have the nerve to credit trump for that. there wouldn't have been a stimi if he hadn't screwed up the response to covid. they wouldn't have needed it. >> and you -- i had this conversation with a lot of -- i live in texas. i'm around a lot of trump supporters. you have this conversation with them and then you say do you know the death rate among -- in republican areas by covid is twice as high as it is in other areas. twice as high. why is that, because they refused to get vaccinated. >> correct. >> to me it's like a bank robber that points a gun at their own head and says give me the money or i'll shoot. that's what they're doing. that's what is amazing about this. but, i think we have to keep in

mind, this is donald trump. i'm going to keep emphasizing. this is donald trump. the problem is 40% or so of the country has been bought into this. 40% of the country has been bought into this. so when it comes time, again like people like dr. blackstock and our other healthcare providers to give information to the public that will save lives that will help people's health, they refuse it. and that is a huge destructive problem for our institutions. they no longer -- they rather call dr. google, right, search something on google to find out the cure for something as opposed to talk to a medical professional. and that's a problem that's going to affect every one of us. >> absolutely. and the next pandemic, god forbid that person is in the white house again, millions of people will die. there are a lot of people right now who are insisting that he needs to be president again who will be among them. then what will you say? what will you say if it's your family, if it's your mom, your grandma, you wanted him back in

there to be incompetent again when he failed the first time. you got one job as president. he failed. and if you're saying that was a better era, you are lying because it is not true. dr. uche blackstock. thank you. matthew is sticking around with us. up next on "the reidout," trump and his cronies purged the rnc to install loyalists and family members. what could possibly go wrong. "the reidout" continues after this. ntinues after this shop etsy until april 15th and get up to 30% off thoughtful pieces made by real people to brighten your home. save on lighting, furniture, gifts and more.

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this place has just evolved into this bickering and nonsense and not really doing the job for the american people. it is the worst year of the nine years and three months that i've been in congress. having talked to former members, it's the worse year in 40, 50 years. >> that was conservative colorado congressman ken buck on his decision to resign from congress next week. he had already announce head wouldn't run for re-election. it's no wonder he wants to call it quits earlier. honestly, who in their right mind would want to stay. after all, the republican party has become one giant dysfunctional mess, devoted to only one goal, serving donald trump. just look at the republican national committee. this week the new leadership began a massive hussein percentage so the rnc falls in line with donald trump's goals. creating a coordinated campaign

is perfectly normal thing, trump's choices to run the rnc, new chairman michael wattly and trump's daughter-in-law, co-chair lara trump installed last week aren't doing anything normal. lara trump made it clear already that she thinks republican voters absolutely want their contributions to be used to pay off trump's legal bills. which means that if you are a republican candidate running for office, the already strapped national committee with the smallest amount of cash on hand in a decade has no real plan to help you to increase republicans razor thin and dwindling majority in the house. paying off trump's debts and spreading his election lies. it's like they turned the rnc into a new state of business since the state of new york said they can't do business there. former trump attorney and one american news network reporter christina bobb, was just hired as the rnc senior counsel for

election integrity. and today the rnc sued michigan secretary jocelyn benson accused her of keeping ineligible voters on the state's voter rolls. back with me is matthew dowd. matthew, again, rnc has one job, elect republicans. how are they going to do that if all the money goes to paying trump's legal bills? isn't that kind of defeating the purpose, no? >> well, you know, as i was listening to you, i was thinking of the famous john mccain quote where he described russia as a gas station masquerading as a nation, as a country. >> yeah. >> this has become ask a trump venmo account masquerading as a political party. that's actually what it is. and you talk to the former staffers and all that, they're shocked the ones that got fired that trump wasn't loyal to them in the course of this. i don't understand why there hasn't -- why local candidates, it's not only the house of representatives and the committees assigned to that on the republican side to re-elect

them and the senate committee assigned to re-elect them. it's somebody running for state rep in iowa. it's somebody running -- somebody running for governor in another state, all of which are not going to be helped by donald trump. i see none of them raising their arms and saying, hey, wait a minute, this is supposed to help all of us, not to just one guy to take cash out of and serve his purposes in all this. i don't get it. i don't get the part -- democrats ought to be cheering this actually. >> yeah. >> because lara trump has no idea what she's doing, never run a political campaign, has no idea what she's doing. i didn't think anybody could be worse than the former chairwoman. this is worse than that. so democrats -- but, as a legacy political party, one of two political parties, the idea that openly corrupt, openly corrupt and use money for personal reasons, i don't get why local candidates haven't -- republican candidates haven't raised their hands and said stop. >> it's a cult. it's a cult. you can't complain or you'll be acceptability to the trump

gulag. they had a retreat, rnc, only 100 people went. why would you want to go? what are you supposed to do go and say hail trump and fall on your knees and worship trump. ken buck is i'm out of here. lauren boebert was going to run in his district but now she'll stay in and run for his district and it's a whole mess there. but he is leaving them in a lerch. he blind sided the current speaker of the house, didn't tell him. he's done. he's fed up. i don't think he cares if it means they give up a seat in colorado. to your point, what the rnc would normally be able to help with that is that. trying to make sure they don't lose one of those two seats. now they don't have any money. trump will use it all. >> you know, i was listening to ken buck and listening to what he was just played. i get why ken buck is completely dysfunctional, all of us with eyes can see it's completely dysfunctional. but the problem is who sent those reps there?

right? who voted for those reps. it's republican primary voters that put lauren boebert in office, that put green from georgia in office, that put all these people -- they're sitting there not because they just showed up artificially. they're sitting there because of republican primary voters. i hope ken buck understands that. he doesn't speak to them as the problem. the problem is he has to educate voters that put him in office. >> yes. >> that's the problem. >> please say that again. you know, i'm obsessed with this right now because even in the democratic party, people will say i don't like my choices. but your choices are made in the primary. the difference between republicans and democrats is that 10% of republicans will show up in the primary and put a mad person on the docket. but then all the republicans, the other 90% will still vote for that person in november. democrats 10% of them or 30% in the case of colorado will show up in the primary and then the other 70% say i don't like those

choices. the difference is on the republican side there is total discipline. tiny fraction of them are looney tunes and show up and put these really weird-o people on the ballot but they know in the end, you just have to get on the ballot and republicans will vote for you. how do you get democrats to have that kind of discipline? because democrats tend to put real politicians and lawyers and people who used to be on student council, them on the ballot and democrats are still not happy. >> well, i don't know how either one of us can make sure democrats are happy with the choices they have in the course of this. i don't get it. they need some sort of psychological drug or something i guess on happiness or whatever in the course of this. i mean, i think the difference is and this is why people say both sides are dysfunctional are so ludicrous in the course of this. democrats, tiny fringe no matter what they want to have somebody in. but the debates in democratic primaries are always over some

ideological differences. >> correct. >> what should we do on policy. how should we handle this. should we have a higher -- you may get more left of center people in the primary and win. that's the thing. but it's never a question of competence. it's never a question are they competent in this thing. republicans don't care about competence. >> no. >> have no care about competence. and how you can govern. ta take pride in sending people to washington that will blow it up. and that's a huge difference between the two parties. >> that's right. these are people who run because they hate government and they go for the purposes of creating chaos. they're not going there to do policy or get you more roads and bridges. no, they're going to blow up government because they're people who hate government just randomly run and random people. where as you say, democrats go because they have a set of policy ideas they want and may differ left to right on what to do, but they actually want to do something. these parties are just not the same at all.

matthew dowd, always a pleasure. thank you very much for letting me yell into the tv at you. thank you. coming up, congress -- what are you going to do -- congress is trying to ban tiktok. oh great. it's getting tone deaf ahead of the election. we'll be right back. of the election we'll be right back.

♪♪ tiktok is a threat to our national security because it is owned by bytedance which does

the bidding of the chinese communist party. >> i believe this bill could cause future problems. it's opening pandora's box. >> this is not an attempt to ban tiktok. it's an attempt to make tiktok better. >> it seriously undermines serious liberties banning a platform that 150 million americans use to engage in free speech and expression. >> today a bipartisan house ma yorty passed a bill that would lead to a nationwide ban of tiktok if its china-based parent company does not divest ownership. 352 voted in favor, 65 against. tiktok is a wholly owned subsidiary of chinese tech firm bytedance. roughly 150 million americans use tiktok. earlier this week fbi director

chris wray reiterated concerns that the chinese government has the ability to control the algorithm during a senate hearing on national threats. joining me now is brian chueng. thank you for being here. if, in fact, this bill was to pass the senate and be designed by president biden, would this forced sale be in sell to a individual? >> lit take some time before there would be any sort of ban on tiktok because the way this would have to work is that after passage of the house, which happened today, it would need to go on to the snats. the senate would have to pass it and the president would have to sign it. then after that happens the clock would begin for a six-month period which tiktok would have to be die vested by the chinese parent bytedance. if they can't do, it will be

banned. we can continue to post our dancing videos on tiktok. look at the end of the day the question is, okay, if this does look like it has a path to being passed and signed into law by the president, which the president said he would do, who might buy tiktok. we have to remember that there is precedent for this because then president donald trump in 2020 tried to do the exact same thing, which was force bytedance to divest tiktok. when he tried to do there were two potential suitors, oracle and also walmart. there's a potential for this company to be sold. how this plays out in 2024, we have to see. >> it feels -- i'm sorry, but it does feel like this is an attempt to enrich some already rich american billionaire just wants tiktok. my question is what is the difference in the alga rhythmic threat this site versus telegram, versus facebook, versus discord, versus x, twitter, all of them have alga rhythmic problems and dangers. why is tiktok being singled out when they all have the same

issues? >> when you talk about data and disinformation, misinformation, it is certainly the same at a tiktok as it would be at a facebook or an instagram or x or twitter, right? but the concerns that at least lawmakers cite with regards to this is with the chinese ownership through bytedance. you're right. there's a lot of billionaires who have stakes in all these social media apps. you look at bytedance, jeff yasp has 7% personal stake in the company bytedance and his investment firm has a 15% stake. so, they have vested interest as i'm sure other investors do in seeing how this story plays out because they have a financial stake attached to it as well which will create some interesting undercurrents in the lobby. >> not to interrupt you. you're saying an american billionaire owns some of this company. it's not wholly owned by china, right? >> well, of course, the company

is based in china. it's based in beijing bytedance but there are investment stakes that come from a number of shareholders which can include in some cases americans as well. >> uh-huh. i smell a rat. we're going to keep talking about this. brian cheung. thank you. follow me on tiktok at joy reid official. we'll be right back. d official we'll be right back.

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month. here at "the reidout," we love books. there are no book bans here. so i invited friend of the show and friend of mine, tam ran hall, who may be familiar to many viewers here who watched this network, "today show" and her amazing show "the tamron hall show." she has a new book "watch where they hide" a black woman a tv journalist no less, written by a black woman journalist. and yes, crime reporter. and joining me now is the great tamron hall, executive producer and host of the nationally syndicated "tamron hall show." i'm so glad to see you. i have my book which i want signed. i can't push it through the tv. i'll get it signed. talk to me about this book. i want to start by asking you this, those who read your books and this is the second in the series, to what extent is jordan manning tamron hall? >> well, thank you. it's so good to see you. you were just on my show, here we are celebrating women's history month and that's really

what this book is about. this protagonist as you mentioned is a journalist. and i think the part of her that needed credibility was the years that i spent deadline crime, six seasons, starting out my career as a local reporter, much of that as a crime reporter. so with that i pour that authenticity of what it's like to be a true crime reporter, what it's like to spend hours on the ground in a small town investigating a case. that's me in jordan. the rest is all jordan. she really is this compassionate character who is part reporter, part vigilante. her background is in forensic science. and she is so compelled to go past the microphone. for years i would stand in front of the scene and have the mic in my hand and report the facts of the case. with jordan manning, we see someone who is really willing and able to push past the line and say, it's not enough to report it. i need to solve it. this time around she is investigating the disappearance of a missing mom. and it's appropriate that it's

women's history month because at its core, another woman asking for help and this person, jordan manning, stepping up to do just that. >> you know what i love about what you do is that you take the fiction genre but really to deal with issues that are prevalent today. in this case, as you said, this is a story about a missing mom. this is a story about a whom is sometimes -- the type of people who are kind of looked aside. we don't pay attention to this demographic of person who is missing. you did that in your previous book as well, where you deal with these issues of abuse, women who are abused, women who are missing, black women who are missing and can't get the media to pay attention. how much do you feel that what you're doing with jordan manning is to illuminate those issues, those real life issues but doing it in a form that people can consume, you know, on the beach as they're spring break reading. >> i have to tell you, these cases are inspired by real cases i covered the first book as the wicked watch, it was about -- ryan harris, this child who i covered which was 11 years old,

went missing and was found dead on the south side of chicago. and that case i couldn't shake for many, many years. this time around, jordan is investigating the death of a white woman, two cases that i covered. one in oklahoma, one in michigan. both missing moms. different circumstances. but i was on the ground covering those cases. and joy, i was intentional about it. because the first book heavily focussed on something in my heart, missing black and brown children who are ignored. now with jordan what i want to show the audience as a reporter, i walk in the door. i didn't get to pick who i was rooting for. as a journalist you cover the story. it was important to me as well because when i sold this book four publishers offered to buy the book, all saying there was no black female journalist protagonist solving crime written by a black female in any genre, it does not exist. if i had five successful seasons of my talk show and two emmys it might not exist. the door was open because of the

great partnership of my publisher, let's bet on tamron and thus bet on jordan manning. now jordan manning is saying, race aside, anything aside, i am rooting for this woman. the missing woman's sister comes in and says, i need you. and jordan says, i'm here. and that's the part of this character i'm so happy for people to see. the thrilling end -- i stayed up -- we talk a lot. i stayed up for hours and days and weeks changing the ending because i said, i wanted people -- i told whoopi goldberg, look up at the sky and say damn you, tamron. it's a thriller. it's a mystery. it's born from my experience with "deadline crime." i wanted to jump in this genre so many people say we shouldn't belief in, we shouldn't have stories in. at the core, jordan is me. if you get in trouble, you want to call jordan. she'll find you. i may not. >> listen, i watched your instagram post where you talked about your process. i actually as a writer, the

process is different because there's a separation you have to have from it. it is like having a child, right? this is your book baby. and i wonder at a certain point how do you separate from jordan? how do you -- she is now part of you. is she in your head, in your life? how do you step away from her? >> that's a great question. and you always ask the best questions. you know, the reality is jordan gave me peace in that for all of those years i covered true crime, i've been open -- when i was at msnbc and "today show" about my sister being the victim of an unsolved murder. i was looking for an escape hatch. when i covered the case in oklahoma, i was pregnant with my son moses. i don't want to cover this. i don't want to do "deadline crime" anymore. i'm reading about ason moses, i said i don't want to do crime anymore. i'm reading about the murder of a woman who was fighting for her life and she was pregnant at the time and i didn't want to do that anymore so jordan

gave me this escape route through fiction. she is, wrapped up in real things but she also had friends and a story, this rich character, this black woman that if you were in trouble, you would want jordan on the case. >> this is the beautiful book. i'm talking this right in my bag and the only time you get to see it again is when you are signing it. i'm so proud of you, tamron hall, you are amazing thank you, my sister. we will be er. right back. right back. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours.

the combination of political crisis years in the making has nbc's andrea mitchell reporting in haiti. >> henry is widely blamed for the worst turmoil in hades troubled history, gangs attacking police station, breaking prisoners out of jails, thousands displaced. >> this has turned into a humanitarian crisis. >> hades most recent president was assassinated in 2021. the united nations is warning that 4 million haitians face food insecurity. joining me now is gary pierre, thank you for being here. walk us through how it is that

haiti came to be dominated by this group of now allied gangs? >> as you mentioned in your introduction, this is a long walk toward this moment. in 2018, we began what they call lockdown, people couldn't leave their homes for months, and in 2021, the president was assassinated, and that created complete chaos and lawlessness. and they've been essentially running the country, the gangs, they've been able to levy taxes and tolls on people, and they are a criminal element so now my beloved country is run by criminals. >> let me ask you this. haiti seems like an experiment

in punishment that began at the moment that they were liberated from the french, the moment they threw off the enslavers, they were locked into this giant debt, they had to pay reparations and there's never been a government that could actually function. what do you think is behind the fact that in addition to the international prohibition on them succeeding, why can't haiti get a government that is stable and functional? >> well, as you mentioned, the country never had a chance to be a republic. on the system that was created was that the international community and the corrupt politicians and people in the private sector that enabled the community to do whatever they wanted, at will, so, under that system you have a handful of people getting rich and the overwhelming majority of the people are in dire poverty, so you have people on the far right

and even the center-right you think this is a perfect example to show that black people cannot govern themselves but the reality is not true. it's the system that was set up since 1804, when haiti got its independence, so therefore, you know the other thing people don't know, joy, haiti was isolated from over 60 years. it was not recognized as a republic. the united states, it had no trading partners, so you have internal fighting, people mistrusting each other. so what i'm hoping for is that haitian americans -- haitians concert charting a course to change this because you know, this cannot go on anymore. i'm tired of having to explain this over and over because you know, we have to take things into our own hands over here. and work with our brothers and sisters and see what can be

done. this is unacceptable. this is a beautiful country. the scenes that we are seeing is a snapshot it does not represent the beauty of haiti and i wish that we could get to a point where we could show different photos and the reality on top of that. >> haiti is a beautiful country and a heroic country that liberated itself from enslavement and has been punished ever since. it deserves to succeed. is there a leader that has emerged, that is a trusted person, that might be able to assume leadership in that country, very quickly? >> no, not at all. everyone has left the country. no, no, not going to work. >> gary pierre, make you so much. all in with chris hayes starts right now.