good evening. i'm katie filling, in for training, just wrapped up an

exclusive wide-ranging interview with president joe biden. the president touching on several key issues, including a term he regrets using during the state of the union address. >> i shouldn't have used it. it is undocumented. when i spoke about the different features of the trump, one of the things is the way he talks about vermin, people polluting the blood. that is a what i won't do. i'm not going to treat any of these people with disrespect. >> the president also addressed the situation in gaza and had a pointed message for israeli prime minister netanyahu. >> he has a right to defend israel, a right to continue to pursue hamas but he must, he must, he must pay more attention to the innocent lives are being lost as a consequence of the actions taken. i want to see a cease-fire. >> we have all of the highlights on this special edition of the saturday show. i'm katie phang.

we've got a big show for you. the reason i am in the chair is that jonathan capehart is currently traveling with president biden and his campaign, getting unprecedented, behind the scenes access. right now, he is attending a rally in atlanta, georgia, where president biden is speaking to battle ground voters. a moment ago, jonathan capehart sat down for an exclusive one- on-one with the president in his first televised interview since his primary state of the union speech and super tuesday, marking the unofficial start of the general election. they touched on a number of issues, including the threat to democracy and the push for a cease-fire in gaza. jonathan began by asking about a very controversial moment at the state of the union. take a listen.

>> mr. president, it's great to see you again. thank you for doing this. that was one hell of a speech he gave. i will touch on three areas. i noticed a look of surprise on your face when you walked into the chamber and saw congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. it was priceless. you feigned shock at seeing her. during your response to her haggling of you, you used the word "illegal," when talking about the man who allegedly killed laken riley. >> undocumented. when i spoke about way he talks about vermin, the way he talks about these people polluting the blood. i talked about what i'm not going to do. but i want to. i will treat any of these people with disrespect. they built the country. the reason our economy is growing. we have to control the border and have a more orderly flow

but i don't share that view at all. >> you regret using that word? >> yes. >> what was it like for you to see republicans not cheer your tough words for vladimir putin or for defending democracy or any of the other things republicans used to stand for? >> i think some of them still do stand for it but they are intimidated by trump right now. the idea that, look, i'm talking to you, and hear talking to these folks starting businesses, getting endorsed by minority businesses. he's up there with marjorie taylor greene in north georgia. yesterday, he spends time at his mansion, at his resort with victor orban. he talks about his respect for the president of korea, valerie putin, it's a different world. >> was that a mistake to house

orban ? >> is a member of nato but he says he doesn't believe in democracy. the people and with are people who, in fact, in and , they have great respect for one another. but, look, when you have a president who, in the midst of the carnage going on as a consequence of russian attack on ukraine and talks about come in if these guys haven't paid their dues, just do what you need to nato. he talked about getting out of nato. it is a critical thing to our national defense. we made a commitment after world war ii that none of that would happen again. look what he's doing. it's dangerous. >> you were caught on a hot microphone after your state of the union address talking to secretary of state antony blinken and senator michael bennet saying, "i told him, and don't repeat this, you and i are going to have a come to jesus meeting." what you mean by that ? >> it is an expression used in the southern part of my state meaning a serious meeting.

i've known netanyahu for 50 years. he knew what i meant by it. >> what is the come to jesus part? what a tough love are you going to give to the prime minister ? >> what is happening is he has a right to defend israel, a right to continue to pursue hamas but he must, he must, he must pay more attention to the innocent lives lost as a consequence of the actions taken. he's hurting, in my view, he's hurting israel more than helping israel by making the rest of the world, it is contrary to what israel stands for and i think it is a big mistake. i want to see a cease-fire. i'm starting with a major, major exchange of prisoners for a six week time. going into ramadan. there should be nothing happen and we should build off of that cease-fire. i have spoken with the majority of the arab leaders, from saudi arabia to egypt and jordan,

they are all prepared to fully recognize israel and begin to rebuild the region. and, that is the focus. what comes after gaza? what is next? it is a tough decision but there's a lot that can be done. >> on the cease-fire, will, it is saturday. the holy month of ramadan starts on monday. is it possible a cease-fire deal could be reached in time for ramadan to start? >> i have my cia director in the region talking about it. i think it is always possible. i never give up on that. >> what is your redline with high minister netanyahu, do you have a redline ? for instance, with invasion of rafah, which you've urged him not to do, that be a redline questioning >> i'm never going to leave israel. the defense of israel is still critical. there's no redline where i will cut off all weapons so they don't have the iron dome to protect them. but, there's redline's that if he crosses, you cannot have

30,000 more palestinians died as a consequence going after hamas. there's another way to deal, to get to, to deal with, with the trauma caused by hamas. the first time i went over, i sat with him and i sat with the war cabinet and i said don't make the mistake america made. america made a mistake. we went after osama bin laden until he got in but we shouldn't have gone into the whole thing in iraq and afghanistan. it wasn't necessary. it wasn't necessary. it has cost more problems than it is going to your. >> who actually wants a deal? do you think hamas wants a cease-fire? >> i think hamas would like a total cease-fire across the board because then they would have a better chance to survive and maybe rebuild. but, that is not what i think the vast majority of people think you have to look, after

what happened in world war ii and the carpet bombing that took place, what happened was we ended up in a situation where we changed the rules of the game and what constituted rules of the war. that's what we should be guided by. >> some have suggested you should go back to israel and address the israeli parliament. is that something you would do? >> yes. >> what that have to be at the invitation of the prime minister or could that be at the invitation of the president? >> i'd rather not discuss it more. >> does that mean that that has been, that has been discussed, the possibility of going back to israel ? >> it doesn't mean anything. >> okay. let's talk about the temporary.

that you announced to get supplies into gazan. it's going to take 60 days to get that constructed. what more are you doing in the absence of cooperation from netanyahu and a bill from congress to get supplies into gaza, more humanitarian aid into gaza ? >> everything we can. we are hoping to open up access from the north in israel. we are also doing eardrops. i know several people were killed with an airdrop. we are looking to avoid that in the future, we are working with our arab friends to find out how much we can get in. it is a desperate situation. food, medicine, everything badly needed. it is needed now. >> you are heading to michigan, on the campaign trail, probably in the next few days where more than 100,000 people voted uncommitted in the primary to protest your handling of the situation in gaza. some have said they will never vote for you. one told charles

blow of, "the new york times," as bad as mr. trump's rhetoric was and inputting a travel ban on muslim countries, he wasn't overseeing and actively arming a genocide. those are tough words. what is your response to that widely shared sentiment ? >> it is not widely shared. you make judgments you are not capable of making. that is not what all those people said. what they said was they are very upset and i don't blame them for being upset. there are families there, there are people who are dying, they want something done with it and they are saying joe, do something. the idea that they all think it is genocide that is a different situation. look, i can fully understand, can't you? you have a family member there, a family member or you come from a family that is to isolate their and may be victimized. it is understandable to feel that

way. that is why i'm doing everything i can to try to stop it. >> coming up next, my all-star political panel will weigh in on what the president just told us about his use of the word illegal, which the trump campaign is already responding to tonight. also ahead, we'll have more of jonathan capehart's exclusive interview, including where president biden has to speak about reproductive rights. >> women speak up. this will change and if you give me a congress that is democratic, we will change it back to roe v. wade. wade. (vo) if you have graves' disease... ...gritty eyes could be more than a rough patch. people with graves' could also get thyroid eye disease,

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he has a right to defend israel, a right to continue to pursue hamas. but, he must, you must, he must pay more attention to the innocent lives lost as a consequence of the actions taken. he is hurting, in my view, he's hurting israel more than helping israel by making the rest of the world, it is contrary to what israel stands

for. it is a big mistake. i want to see a cease-fire. >> that was president biden with strong words for israeli prime minister netanyahu in his exclusive interview with jonathan capehart today. in his first sit down since the state of the union, president biden shared why he's planning a "come to jesus conversation," with netanyahu. president biden called for a temporary cease-fire and says he hasn't lost hope for a hostage deal before ramadan starts. but, president biden vowed to continue military aid to israel, no matter what, telling msnbc , "there is no redline with netanyahu's station." joining me, i msnbc analyst brandon buck, served as the chief communications advisor to former speaker paul ryan. also with me, natasha brown, cofounder of black voters matter and tia mitchell,

washington correspondent for the atlanta journal- constitution. my things to all of you for joining us on this very special show. brendan, i'd like to start with you. we just heard from president biden himself. he will step up his criticism in real time of prime minister benjamin netanyahu but, at the same moment, he promises not to discontinue aid to israel by providing weapons to make sure they are able to defend themselves. what is the strategy that you see here? >> the strategy is trying to balance a lot of complicated interests. it is not a new story in that region, of course. you never want to be in a situation as president when your fate is in the hands of someone else. that is clearly what the situation here is. the united states president has incredible influence, no doubt, but ultimately it is just that, trying to influence someone else. if he can't get the israelis to change course, then he's going to continue to find himself in significant political trouble with his own party. the resident slipped a bit somewhere in that interview where jonathan capehart was asking about a total cease- fire and the resident said hamas would like a total cease-

fire. i think he caught himself there, recognizing that the thing that his party is calling for would in fact be a gift to hamas right now and he can't go there. he knows he can't go there. he knows that israel is still an incredibly important ally to us. he realized the tough waters he's dealing with. it was an interesting little slip, i think. >> president biden denying that many americans are disapproving of what israel is doing in gaza but, latasha, you have your finger on the pulse of what voters are thinking. what have you heard from the voters? >> we have been on the ground talking to voters, particularly young voters. they are very upset with what is happening. remind me of what happened, the movement of south africa and apartheid. young people lead that and were very disturbed with one of the foreign policy issues we saw

college students get around. we are seeing the same thing now . as we are talking to young people, they are disturbed with what is happened in gaza and they want to see a cease-fire and they have been open about that. i think that the question isn't about what hamas wants, i think it is up to the president about what his constituents want. many of the constituents of the party, many of the new voters and young voters, the new electorate are saying they want to see a cease-fire. they want something to happen in gaza, that they want to see an end to the tragic things we are witnessing, of human lives being impacted by this terrible, horrible war. >> tia, there is a massive struggle in d.c. when it comes to funding what is going on over in hayes brown three. we heard president biden say explicitly to jonathan capehart there is "no redline when it comes to israel." your thoughts about how well that will go over in d.c. >> i think, quite frankly, if there was a "clean israel bill," that was put on the floor in the senate, which the

house passed one, the senate did and not because it couldn't pass. i think there are plenty of senators that want to give israel money. they agree with president biden. senators from both sides of the aisle. but, what has held up that money is the ukraine question, which is much more controversial. there are a lot more republicans and, under no circumstances will the support more money for ukraine. and, members of congress who want to give money to ukraine know that. so, they don't want to decouple the israel money because that will make it even harder to get ukraine more money. so, the question is will they continue to walk that line in

the sand, wanting to couple it, you know, border security and all of that became part of the conversation. at the end of the day, if israel starts saying we really need that money, we need you to give it to us, they will have to be decisions made in congress. right now, it is still tied up with the ukraine money. >> brendan, we heard president biden saying and on the fact that he made a mistake by using the word "illegal," saying he regrets using that term. already, the trump camp responding to jonathan capehart's interview with president biden, saying, " biden is tone deaf for walking back his use of the word illegal." your thoughts about whether or not it made sense for president biden to own up to what he said. >> it might make sense given where the president is politically within his own party. i think it was a huge mistake to walk that back right now, honestly. i think it shows weakness. let's understand the context here. this is a person who killed an innocent 22-year-old woman who was out for a jog. the president said the person

was on document it. they want and document, they had been arrested several times. we knew he was in the country and had been arrested for other things. this should have been a moment where he could've stood up to his own party and said i regret saying illegal, i should have said something worse about this person. this is going to be used against him significantly. i understand the politics on the left about language and immigration. i totally get it. i understand why he did this. but, i thought that was a great moment in the state of the union, where he stood and reminded people white people in the middle elected him in the first place. he is a middle-of-the-road democrat, not owned by the activist left. i think it is disappointing he couldn't use stronger words for someone who just killed an innocent woman. >> latasha, president biden condemning donald trump for hosting hungarian leader orban. here is how trump introduced orban at mar-a-lago. take a quick listen. >> there's nobody that is better, smarter, or a better leader than viktor orban.

he's fantastic. he does a great job. he's a noncontroversial figure. he said this is the way it's going to be and that's the end of it, right? he's the boss. and, he's a great leader. latasha, i don't think it is a bullet to say the future of american democracy and its survival is on the line in november of 2024. how important is watching what we just saw and listening to what we just listened to, how important is that contrast between democracy and a dictatorship if somebody like trump is back in the oval office ? >> i think it is incredibly important. i wanted to go back to even the comment, the previous comment. i think that biden had to draw a line in the sand to be able to separate himself. part of what trump has done is dehumanized people. part of the problem that i think with the comment around illegal is not necessarily just about a political comment but these are human beings. ultimately, if biden is to be a different candidate, i think he has to actually create and think and make that distinction. as we are talking about trump

supporting a candidate that has been openly antidemocratic, that that in itself is a problem and there has to be, there are going to have to be two candidates that both of them draw the line. >> i have to say, i want you to let that sugar bear we sent them a lot of love right now. brandon, latasha, ti, you guys are going to stick around because we will have more questions for you in just a little bit. , more of jonathan capehart's exclusive interview with president biden and why he decided to call out to supreme court justices during the state of the union for overturning roe versus wade and whether he sees the court as a political body. political body. is gentle on sensitive skin and locks in moisture to provide soothing relief. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. america's #1 lotion tissue. okay y'all we got ten orders coming in... big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story.

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atlanta. trump is in rome, georgia, in the district presented by congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. as the 2024 race kicks into high gear, both candidates will have to grapple with the issue of reproductive rights. in jonathan capehart's exclusive interview, president biden made it clear he believes the supreme court made the wrong decision in overturning roe v wade. >> the chair of the senate judiciary committee, i was struck by your direct comments to the supreme court, who are right there in front of you. am i right in thinking that you view the roberts court as a political body and the conservative majority as politicians instead of jurists ? >> think they made a wrong decision. i think they read the constitution wrong and i think they made a mistake. i was being blunt. remember, what they said was it's up to the states to decide. that's really what was said. it's no longer constitutionally

guaranteed principle. and, they used a phrase that women can vote and they can change it if they want to. i found that somewhat insulting, the idea they don't think they can. women are speaking out. they spoke out in 2022, they spoke out in 2024. that is what is going to happen. i was just making clear, women speak up. this will change. and, if you give me a congress that is democrat, we will change her back to roe v wade. >> you are having fun on the campaign trail, and questioned >> i like campaigning. it's the only time i get out of the cloister of the white house, where i get to look people in the eye, shake their hands, listen to their arguments, listen to their pain, see the pain in their face and what they need to have relieved. where i come from, it's all about what happens at the kitchen table, the things that matter.

it matters if you are getting ripped off by a bank at a $35 fee for a late charge when they are only allowed to charge what it cost them to fix it. that is why i moved it to $8.00. it makes a difference. it's billion dollars to banks and major lenders. guess what, it is $100.00, $200 or cents a month for a small family. my dad used to say it is what you have at the end of the month that gives you breathing room. we have to give the american people breathing room. there's much more i'm going to do. >> mr. president, speaking of the campaign trail, you have to get to it. thank you very much for this interview. >> thank you for having me. >> my expert panel is back with me. msnbc political analyst brandon buck , and tia mitchell, i want to start with you. your thoughts on seeing president biden at the state of the union address actually challenging the supreme court

while the justices were sitting there. >> i was there at the speech and i thought it was an interesting moment. i think it was a respectful way to disagree to the point that the president made speaking with jonathan, he didn't attack them as people or personally but he said, you know, i think you made a wrong decision. he also made a point to voters. if you don't like the supreme court decision overturning roe v wade, send me an amenable congress and let's create a long to create those federal protections for abortion. again, he is setting that contrast with trump. he's setting the stakes for the election and giving women and other voters who want abortion protections a reason to vote for him and democrats in november. >> brandon, this has been a losing proposition for

republicans to double down, triple double on the idea of standing in the way between a woman and reproductive rights access. how damaging is this issue going to be for trunk and all republicans down ballot, if anything happens to them in november of 2024 ? >> i think an interesting tidbit here, i went back and watched the state of the union last year. president biden spent 34 seconds talking about the issue of abortion. this year, he spent seven or eight times that. he understands this is an issue they have a huge advantage on. you have republican after republican in the primary try to figure out how to talk about this. i don't think anybody has figured out a way to talk about it in a way that does not alienate a lot of the voters. republicans suffered a huge price for it in every election that has happened since the jobs decision and i imagine democrats will continue to press this hard and obviously the president emphasizing this in the way that he did in contrast to last year shows they think they have the

advantage. >> latasha, georgia is and remains a battleground state, especially when it comes to issues affecting all women. what are you hearing from suburban women, in particular, about this issue? >> i think that women, the strategy for this year's election, the strategy is women. what we are going to see is this will make a remarkable difference. in terms of repetitive rights but not just reproductive rights, it is around the control and who has of control over our bodies with the say-so of our bodies. i've been hearing across the board it is the one issue i think you will see independent women, progressive women, you will see some women who identify as being republican who simply this is just the supreme court has gone a little too far. >> i thank you all. when we come back, we are going to have the panel staying with us and we will have a look at what donald trump is saying as he's campaigning in the district of marjorie taylor greene. we will dig into all of that

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right now, donald trump is at the campaign rally in rome, georgia, which is in congresswoman marjorie taylor greene's district. a moment ago, he criticized president biden and biden's the state of the union address. >> two nights ago, we all heard crooked joe's angry, dark, hate filled rant of a state of a union address. it didn't it bring us together? bring the country together. i'm going to bring it together. he's a threat to democracy. >> my panel is back with me, brandon buck, latasha brown, tia mitchell. latasha, i will go to you. what do you make of what trump said and did question

>> there's no floor for him. it's consistent with his character. he is constantly in a space of making fun of people. he's constantly in a space of being negative. this is pretty much what we've seen with donald trump for the last few years. what is really interesting and what i thought was a highlight of what president biden did in his speech was around voting rights. the fact that he lifted up a commitment to passing both the freedom to vote act and the john lewis voting rights act. both of those things. we need those because of the actions right here in the state of georgia of people like president trump. and, what he did. >> brandon, i wanted to talk to you about the fact that we now have an election denier who is going to be the chair of the republican national committee and then you have lara trump, donald trump's daughter in law, who will be the cochair. she has no experience doing that. what does it say to you about the fact that the republican national committee has two hand-

picked heads, hand-picked by trump, to make a personal piggy bank of the rnc for him ? >> i will say two things. one, it is not unusual at all for the incoming nominee or former president in this case to control the rnc. it is effectively the nominee's campaign committee. what is not normal is having that committee pay the person's enormous legal bills and do things that do not advance the party but purely advanced one person's personal interest. that is where the huge issue ears. it is not as though ronna mcdaniel, the person who just left with some kind of never trumper. this is just a reminder that the second time around or the third time around, there is no resistance to donald trump anywhere within the republican party ecosystem. everybody is going to be on team trump and going with whatever he happens to do or saint, no matter how unethical

or unseemly it may be. >> in light of that, tia mitchell, ahead of trumps speech, the dnc placed four billboards in marjorie taylor greene's district directly blaming former president donald trump for taking the bipartisan border security bill last month. do you think that that is a successful strategy to have any effect on voters in that particular district? >> so, that district is a pretty ruby red districts. i think the billboards are less about convincing voters, particularly voters who may be on their way to or from a trump rally. i think it serves, again, we are talking about it. other people across georgia can be talking about it., and i think they are, number one, making sure that voters remember that trump and marjorie taylor greene are very aligned. we know how polarizing she is, possibly even more so than he is in certain pockets of the

country. but, i think also it is a little bit of a troll as president biden, as president trump makes his way to rome. that clip we saw of trump, that is what the biden campaign wants trump to be doing. they want to see him attacking his enemies, making fun of people, saying things in soundbites that voters in swing districts and swing states would find problematic or troubling or not presidential. in this way, they are trying to beat him to respond, hoping that that response will help make the contrast that the biden campaign is hoping to make. >> latasha, we got our hands on the prepared rally remarks for donald trump in rome, georgia. it's what he's kind of talking

about right now. one thing that he had in these prepared rally remarks was the following. "we will restore law and order to our country ." my footnote, ironic coming from someone who has been indicted four times. he says "going to indemnify all police officers and law enforcement officers to protect them from being destroyed by the radical left for taking strong actions on crime." latasha, your thoughts about a promise from donald trump to "indemnify all police officers and law enforcement officials throughout the united states." i foresee if that were to happen, and incredibly violent and destructive world for all americans and not just for a particular subset of americans. >> absolutely. he is telling us right in our faces that he is literally a fascist. he's telling us he wants to turn this nation into a police state. he's telling us he will disregard the rule of law and uses power and think of himself as a dictator to rent a nice the police force instead of seeing it as a safety and security for people and in fact

that he will weaponize them against communities and people. he is a dangerous man. i think that it should be loud and clear that donald trump is a clear and present danger to this nation and to the democracy. >> brandon, i want to play for you president biden's latest campaign ad where he directly addresses concerns that some may have about his age. take a listen. >> i'm not a young guy. that is no secret. here's the deal. i understand how to get things done for the american people. they led the country through the covid-19 crisis. today, we have the strongest economy in the world. i passed them law that lowers prescription drug prices, caps insulin at $35.00 a month for seniors. for four years, donald trump tried to pass an infrastructure lot and he failed. i got it done. now we are rebuilding america. >> brandon, it wasn't the only

time he had leaned into the age issue. i will put that in quotes. talked about it at the state of the union, saying i've been around but let me know how to get things done. is this is the right approach for president biden and his team going into the 2024 elections? >> i think it is. i think they probably would have liked to have not gone here but poll after poll shows not just republicans, not just independence but even democrats have concerns about his age. people have tried to say this is some kind of invention of the right or look how old donald trump is. you can tell yourself that. real people are concerned about this. they had to take it on. i think he did himself a lot of favors in the state of the union. he addressed it late in the speech. by that point, it almost felt unnecessary because people saw he was energetic and was able to go toe to toe with numbers of congress who were jeering with him. what he did in the state of the union will buy him time on this where maybe the media narrative around this will die down a little bit that could be helpful for him in the polling. >> i want to thank my incredible panel of brandon

buck, latasha brown and tia mitchell for reacting in real time to the incredible interview of jonathan capehart of president biden. i appreciate you for being here. coming up next, donald trump is once again juggling the campaign trail and the courtroom. he's trying to get his classified documents case dismissed but he's already gotten a smack down from special counsel jack smith. joyce vance joins me live to break down a key hearing that we've got coming up next week. . in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it.

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next week, the judge in donald trump's classified documents case will hear the former residence argument for dismissing the charges. trump claims the presidential records act gave him the right to keep government secrets after leaving office. special counsel jack smith has already shot down that defense, writing in a court filing, "the presidential records act does not exempt trump from the criminal law, let alone allow him to obstruct a federal investigation with impunity." both sides will appear before judge eileen cannon on thursday for what canon expects to be a daylong hearing. joining me now is msnbc legal contributor and former united states attorney and joyce vance. she is a professor at the university of alabama school of law and a cohost of the

sisters in law podcast. joyce, my friend, it is good to see you. let's talk about what's coming up next week on thursday. judge cannon setting a noneevidentiary, i want to stress that, noneevidentiary hearing on thursday to address a couple of motions, one of which, critically, is a motion to dismiss. your thoughts about what you think the judge can and will do with those arguments? >> well, look, it is always difficult, i think, to predict before we hear the arguments that the parties make. katie, you make this important point. this isn't an evidentiary hearing where the judge wants to hear about the facts from witnesses. this is a hearing about what the law means. these are big, meaty issues. but, particularly when it comes to presidential records, jack smith has done a great job of laying out the bottom line here, which is that the presidential records act does nothing to reduce the scope of prosecutions under a criminal law that makes it a crime to retain classified documents, particularly to obstruct an investigation. and, you know, something else that is very different about this case is where the decisions made by judge cannon will end up. this is a case

where any appeals that happen go to the 11th circuit. i was reflecting today and that you and i have had this discussion many times about how trump takes positions that are just ridiculous. you don't have to have been to law school to understand that president can't have immunity for every possible criminal act they might commit. the 11th circuit has been one quote that has not hesitated to apply common sense to trumps efforts to abuse the legal system. i think that is something that will hang over this hearing later this week. >> joyce, i wanted to follow up on that for a second. we know the supreme court has agreed to take up the presidential immunity appeal of donald trump from the january 6th election interference case. reed city leaves for me, what does it tell you that cannon is

still moving forward having these types of hearings, even though there is that pending disposition from the supreme court on this issue of presidential immunity? trump raised the same defense in the mar-a-lago classified documents case as well. >> that is right and you might expect to see a judge like judge cannon say i'm going to hold off on this issue, i won't decided, the supreme court is going to, we will be done them. kate, virtually everything is better, i think, when you are in miami. the food tastes better, the weather is really nice. trumps immunity motion doesn't get any better just because it is now filed in miami instead of new york. it is the same sort of garbage that the court of appeals is fenced with. >> that is an answer. joyce, i wanted to talk about what we are on the watch for, which is coming up this week. judges scott mcafee and fulton county dealing with a motion to disqualify the a fani willis, as well as to dismiss the indictment. there has been a slew of filings recently bolstering the defense in terms of what they are seeking to do, saying that there's all these people and additional witnesses that could come forward if the judge

mcafee were to reopen the evidence. i'm going to lean on you again to read that crystal ball. tell me what your thoughts are about whether or not mcafee is going to grant that motion to disqualify. >> well, i think he's entertained about as much, if not more than enough testimony and argument as he needs to to decide this case. and, there are two very differing views on this motion. one is that georgia law, as a matter of fact, requires an absolute financial conflict of interest for disqualification. that is the law that is usually applied in georgia when these issues come up. but, the defendants have made an argument that this is an issue where will this can be disqualified even over an appearance of impropriety. and, the judge seemed to pick up on that argument and be very interested in it in court. so, it's possible he sees something here that is a little

bit different than how georgia law proceeds. i think this one is difficult to call, katie. the law looks clear but the judge seemed very interested in this novel theory in the courtroom. >> i just have a few seconds left with you. and joyce, i wanted to quickly follow up on that. do you think that mcafee is willing to make new law? in some extent, it looks like that is what he could do if he were to grant a disqualification here. >> the dynamic here is compounded by the fact that he is an elected judge under georgia law. he will face election this year. the qualification is open in georgia. there is been some speculation that might affect the outcome. mcafee has been steady in the courtroom. he looked at the facts, he looked at the long. i think we will see him render the decision he thinks is merited under georgia law, even if it means he has to plow fresh ground to get there. >> joyce vance, as always, i appreciate your insight and your analysis. thanks for being here. thanks to all of you for joining us today. jonathan capehart will return

tomorrow for his sunday show when he will have more of his exclusive interview with president biden, including why he says he's got the back of black voters. plus, he welcomes congressman james clyburn to discuss the state of the presidential race and what he sees ahead, tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. remember to follow the show on instagram, tiktok and threats using the handle @weekendcapehart. don't go anywhere. jonathan will be a guest in the 8:00 p.m. hour to talk about his behind- the-scenes access at president biden's rally in atlanta this evening. evening. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business. and how you business is with simple,

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