when the lead up to the south carolina primary donald trump gave some of the most unhinged, dangerous speeches we have ever heard him give. then, he beat nikki haley and her home state. i'll talk to pennsylvania governor josh shapiro talks about what it means for the republican party, and how joe biden is really, actually, definitely the last guy

standing between trump and the white house. no matter what the cocktail party crowd is saying. plus, an interview i was looking forward to for a very long time. sarah matthews is the former deputy white house, press secretary for donald trump. she testified before the january six committee, and she will be here and studio to talk about what concerns are most about what concerns about a possible second term. later, trump takes his presidential immunity gap, at this time in a classified documents case. the law -- joins us to pick that one apart as only they can. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> okay. last night, donald trump won the south carolina primary. as expected. he was ahead by 30 points. this put him one step closer to the republican nomination. now, nikki haley did get about 40% of the vote. about the same margin she got in new hampshire, and a much more conservative state. also, her home state. important context.

40% is not, in her words, a tiny group. there are some early warning signs in the anti trump vote for the former president. that matters. no matter how -- won the key haley stays in this way's race. the general election is well underway. it has been four weeks. you don't need to agree with haley on much, i don't, necessarily, but you can still acknowledge that she has been making a clear case against trump. in speech after speech. and that case is one of stark contrast. trump is dangerous, she is normal. trump's chaotic, she is stable. trump's, old she is young. i, mean she's not wrong and any of those, but as we saw yet again last night, for the majority of e republican electorate, none of it sticks. none of it seems to matter. because republican primary voters, including, again, the majority of republican primary voters and haley some states, don't want, door don't seem to want a young, experienced, conservative governor who delivers solid speeches, and doesn't appear to be unhinged. they want donald trump.

see, the thing, is nikki haley is running for president, as many, many people have before, her and her party, and the democratic party. trump is running for something else entirely. the office he is seeing, is eyeing, is looking, to is not resembling the office of the president of the united states. trump is actually running to end the presidency as we know it. i'm not letting you in on some big secret here, trump is telling us that this is what he plans to do, over and over again. his intentions are clear as, day anyone watching listening to him over the course of his campaign, and all the speeches he's given, let's just take the last couple of days. because just over the past three days, trump gave three of the most bizarre, unhinged, bigoted, very hard to follow speeches i've ever heard him give. he trivialized black voters, with a disgusting and racist rant on friday night, claiming that the black community likes him more because he was indicted and has a mugshot.

he referred to himself as a political dissidents on saturday, which is an insult to real political dissidents around the world, of which there are many. he also cast november's election as, quote, judgment day. that's just a sampling. a sampling of the concerning nonsense we've heard over the past few days. republican voters know that this is who he is. and they showed us, once again, last night, that this is what they want. remember, these voters were presented with plenty of conservatives to trump. a super conservative governance -- a super conservative senator from south carolina, a never trump former governor from new jersey. all very different, in perfect in some of their own, ways but all perfectly rational, alternate options. they were all tossed aside by the majority of the republican electorate. voters did not win any of them they want the day one dictator, that's who they want. they like the guy who echoes adolf hitler and idolizes latimer putin. they want the promises of retribution. they want a leader free from the rule of law. they want something different

than democracy. and guys, i'm here to tell you, the only person standing in the way of all of that right now is this guy right here, president joe biden. joining me now is the democratic governor of pennsylvania, josh shapiro. governor shapiro, i'm so glad you could stop by join your busy weekend. >> good to be with, you things for having me. you can come anytime. so, let me start. the republican primary right now, nikki haley is running, as a conservative. she has got quite a resume in many ways. yet, she doesn't seem to be resonating with republican voters. you are a savvy political guy, why not? i mean, it's donald trump's party, and it's an extremist party. and it is a party that has continuously, at least in my home state since 2016, taken it on the chin. everyone who's a trump offspring, or someone who tries to be a partial trump, or a half trump, the way it seems like nikki haley's, continues to lose in pennsylvania, which is sort of the ultimate swing state. i think it's because folks want

more freedom, not less. i think folks don't want the chaos of donald trump, in his offspring, the way that they continually bring that about. i expect pennsylvania voters to do their part, to continue to protect and expand freedom, and stand up against extremists. >> well we are going to get into the politics of it, because pennsylvania is so pivotal. but i did want to ask about something that donald trump said this weekend. it's hard to keep track of all the crazy things he said. but this week, and he basically said that you see people, black people, walk around with my mugshot. he said he claims the black community embraced him because he was indicted. you are a former attorney general, you are someone very's family with the legal system. i want to know what you thought when you heard those remarks? >> well look i think it's more just hot air from donald trump, more noise, trying to inject more chaos and more division within our communities. he obviously have to try to go

out and compete for every vote. but i will say that his legal troubles should not be something that is viewed as any sort of positive in any way. but rather just sort of a long history of him being -- him believing that the law does not apply to him, even though it applies to others, of course. and as a former attorney general of the commonwealth of pennsylvania, who took him to court on friday, we just saw the latest, where he was found liable in new york for fraud. i took him to court 43 different times, during the election, when he wanted to throw out our votes, when he wanted to cancel our votes, primarily a black and brown folks in pennsylvania. and by the, way i won every single case against it. he is a guy who believes the law doesn't apply to him, and i think it's up to us to make sure that we consistently show no one is above the law in this country, especially donald trump. >> it's pretty clear to me that the last person standing

between donald trump and the white house is joe biden. but there are a lot of parlor games, but some people who are concerned out there, about joe biden being the nominee for the presidency. i am not saying i am one of them, but there certainly are concerns out there. and there is a recent new york times opinion piece called -- by as reclined, title democrats have a better option then -- now as a >> i don't think these are very helpful. but, you were mentioned in there, as we're another of other young governors. what do you tell people, and i am sure there are many come up to you and say, i wish you were running? i wish another governor was running who is your age, and had your energy? what do you say to them? >> well, joe biden is going to be our nominee, and i am proud to support him. i am proud to get out there and talk about his record of achievement. and make sure i prosecute the case against donald trump, and show the clear contrast between the kind of cast donald trump would bring, and the way president biden is there to protect our freedom, and expand it. when folks come over to me and say nice things, look, i'm just glad they are paying attention

to our work in pennsylvania. our gst attitude, i know it's -- we get stuff done attitude. get sugar done. >> grammy -- and >> but the way we've cut taxes, and at the same time invested historic amounts in public education, and in public safety. the way we are growing our economy. i'm glad folks are taking note of what we are doing in pennsylvania, and i am proud to be out there supporting joe biden. he will be our nominee. >> i want to turn to alabama. there is just always so much going on. and especially given your background, and you are been such a strong advocate for pro- choice rights for women across the country. the state supreme court in alabama, of course, ruled frozen embryos are the legal equivalent to children. donald trump actually expressed support for ivf. he can read a poll, we can give him that. but, what do you do? what should democrats be doing, to make clear to the public who is the candidate and the party of defending women's rights, and who is the candidate not?

>> you know jen, throughout my campaign for governor in pennsylvania, even during my time as attorney general, i spoke a lot about freedom, and protecting our freedoms. in fact, some of the political pundits and others questions wyatt talking about freedom all the time. and i think, this is an area where you have a clear contrast between donald trump and joe biden, between the democratic party and republicans. we, the democrats and joe biden, we are the party of freedom, protecting and expanding freedom. donald trump has been hell-bent on ripping away the freedoms of the american people. he packed the supreme court, and put in motion the steps to overturn roe v. wade. he was successful at that. he is trying to control women's bodies. this ivf decision is the next step in that process. and sadly, i fear in the next several weeks or months, we will get a decision restricting access to mifepristone, another step. >> the next few weeks, you

think? >> we'll see, i have no inside scoop. it is likely to happen soon. what we know is that the republican party today is trying to restrict our freedoms. whether it's trying to control women's bodies, or family decision-making for couples. whether it is trying to tell parents what books they are allowed to read, or whether it is trying to control our votes. the bottom line is, the republican party, while they love to cloak themselves in the blanket of freedom, while they love to talk a big game about freedom, they are all about restricting our freedoms. the democratic party is about expanding our freedoms. and i am proud to be one of the leaders of that effort. >> also in that filing you mentioned, dobbs is mentioned 15 times. so it draws a clear connection. before i let you go, you touched on this a little bit, but i'm interested in your thoughts. we are all waiting to see up of course what the supreme court is going to do, on the issue of presidential immunity. keith and you have, as you have said, argued so many cases against donald trump. what should we all make? i mean, his claim seems to be in nearly every case, i am

immune, i'm immune. including in the classified documents case. what does that tell us, beyond the legal, about his own view of the legal system, and how it applies to him or not? >> donald trump believes the law does not apply to him. and look, there are times when he can get on a good run, and evade the law. but eventually the law catches up to everyone. the law needs to be applied without fear, or favor. we saw the new york courtroom last, week and you cited the documents case is as an example. if you just look at the basic facts of that case, it really elucidate's the broader view donald trump has of himself, and the fact that the law -- consider this, he takes these confidential top secret documents, documents that are not allowed to leave the right, house -- you know this from your public service. and look, accidents can happen. but then once the justice department, once the other agencies reach out him and said, hey you've got these documents you are not supposed to have, what did he? do >> he obstructed justice.

>> he obstructed justice. he didn't give them back, because he doesn't believe the law applies to them. he kept them, and then when they came after him further, he tried to hide it. then he had other people help him in that process. and used them to cover-up. it is actually a pretty simple example, a sent -- a simple -- of the broader issue here, that he doesn't think the law applies to him. so, whether it's about the fraud of trump university, something we dealt with back when i was attorney general. whether it is this documents case, whether it is any of these other cases before him, the bottom line is our justice system needs to hold everyone who breaks the law accountable, and donald trump should be absolutely no exception. >> he is not above the law. a good way to end, governor shapiro, thank you for coming by, always a pleasure talking with. you >> thank you jen. >> and coming up, from january 6th pinball to a choir made up of insurrectionist, donald trump and his supporters are fully embracing the insurrection, as he marches toward the republican

nomination. sarah matthews served as deputy press secretary during the trump administration, she testified before the house january six committee. and now, she is speaking up louder than ever. sara is standing by here in studio, and i cannot wait to talk to her, former white house press aide to former white -- we will be right. back aide to former white -- we will be right. back and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. i'm kareem abdul-jabbar. i ti was diagnosed with afib. great product.

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join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. three years ago, donald trump incited a violent insurrection at the u.s. capitol. last night, he won another republican primary, putting putting him on a glide path to the nomination. as remarkable as the political comeback, in some ways, seems, it's important to remember that a lot of republican voters don't forgive trump for inciting the coup, they like him for it. so trump isn't running from january 6th at all, he is running toward it. and a number of rallies leading up to the south carolina primary, assault sankai is for all blared over the speakers. it's some by acquire made up of people convicted for the rules

on january 6th. trump also continued to refer to insurrectionists as hostages, which is basically becoming a staple of his stump speech. at cpac this, week a trump supporter brought a january six themed pinball machine to the convention call. whenever you are playing, you can hear trump say it, let's walk down pennsylvania avenue. and i want you to listen to what right-wing conspiracy theorist jackpot so be a -- had to say at cpac. and before you do, i should tell you that this is somebody who trump recently praised for doing a great job on his behalf. >> i want to say, welcome to the end of democracy. we are here to overthrow completely. we didn't get all the way here on january 6th, but we will endeavor to get rid of it, and replace it with this right here. we will replace it with this right here. >> amen. >> we didn't get all the way there on january 6th. when they tell us their plans, we have to listen, and in some ways, what you just heard is the worldview that won the republican primary in south carolina last night.

joining me now is sarah matthews, i've been really looking forward to talking to. her. she was deputy -- white house press secretary during the trump administration, a job actually had in the obama administration. she resigned in the aftermath of the january six insurrection, and then testified before the house january six committee. let me just start by saying, what you get was incredibly courageous, incredibly. >> thank you so much for saying, that and for having me on today. >> and i appreciate you being here. i just wanted to start with what i said there. because i am sure for you, you have said you resigned on january 6th, shortly afterwards, that it was a slow burn, which is a fake phrase he used a really stuck with me from the election until january 6th. what is it, how do you digest when you see donald from running towards january 6th, almost proudly running as a part of the insurrection? >> >> i think if you would've told me back when i resigned on january 6th, 2021, and that just a few short years later donald trump would still be the leader of the republican party

and the marching toward the gop nomination for 2024, and that he would not be showing any remorse for january 6th, i would be shocked. >> he's embracing it. >> he's embracing it. and that is what is most crazy to me. he has continued to double down on his election lies, despite there being zero evidence of fraud, zero remorse for what happened on january 6th. i mean, look at, it obviously we've seen the footage of police officers being beaten by these rioters that day. it is horrific for me to watch that footage back. it gives me chills just thinking about it. also when you really think about it, donald trump put a target on his own vice presidents back that day. they were chanting. >> hang mike pence. >> hang mike pence. even to the day, he does not care. >> i think you've been -- i'm sure you've been watching, because he's been so outspoken in the recent days and weeks, and you are someone, i know from the role, you probably

read speeches, you edited speeches. you are very familiar with how he talks. as you are watching, do you think he's gotten worse, more unhinged? >> i do think he's gotten more unhinged in his rhetoric. obviously, donald trump's first four years in office were marked by lots of controversies. but i think that the type of rhetoric that he is using today, it is really concerning. it's almost hitler raskin away, especially when he talks about things like immigration, saying things like poison the blood of our country. he is trying to pray on people's worst instincts, and get them angry and riled up. and that is something he tends to do, but it's just the rhetoric that he is using, it is really concerning to me now. >> as it is concerning to so many people. and that maybe it. but because you've watched him, you worked in the white house, what do you want people to know about the threat of a second term? >> i think it sounds pretty alarmist when folks like myself are saying that donald from his a threat to democracy.

but at the end of the day, you don't have to take my word for, you just have to look at what he is saying. pay close attention. when he says things, like he's going to be a dictator on day one, and not even just his words, he showed us already what a second trump term would look like. by the way, his first term ended because, look, he could not accept the fact he lost in 2020 to joe biden. so then he tried to overturn a free and fair election, and helped incite an insurrection on our nation's capital. i think that is exactly what a second trump term would look like, then, because it shows he has no regard for our constitution, for our institutions, before the rule of law, because he thinks he's above the law. >> let me ask you about that period of time. you have sort of this famous -- i'm sure you did not intend for it to be famous, but there was a moment where you were kind of leaving around papers and saying, does it look like we are effing ahead? i'm paraphrasing here, not using the actual word. are you worried that if he is reelected, he might try to hold on to the presidency again? is that something we should be talking about and be aware of?

i >> think it is something we need to be very aware of. not just what would happen if he loses, but if he wins again. obviously, it would be his second term if he were elected again. and, so you would think he would be out of office. but i think he would try to do anything to stay in power. i think that is what is going to be so critical, then, who he chooses for his vice president. because, obviously, that person then would be in charge of certifying the next election and all that. i think that is really concerning to me. obviously, we've seen some of his potential vp picks out there auditioning, saying things like they wouldn't have done what mike pence did on january 6th, that they would've not certify the election. i think it is something -- >> some of them were hiding behind desks on january 6th. we know who they are. >> exactly. it's really ironic to hear them say that january six rioters were hostages now, and use language like that. because i think we've seen their statements in the immediate aftermath of january

6th show that their feelings that are very different and then what they are saying today. >> you have mentioned mike johnson before. you've talked about him. liz cheney has talked about the enablers. you know so well, as you just described, it is not just donald trump. there need to be people enabling him. and do you worry about him being an enabler? >> specifically mike johnson? i am definitely concerned about that. right now, today what we are looking at with the ukraine aid bill, and him holding this up. congress right now is on recess. the house is. and they don't go back until february 28th. i think i saw ryan fitzpatrick on tv the other day, a congressman from pennsylvania, saying that it's not a matter of months, it's a matter of weeks before the soldiers in ukraine run out of ammunition and resources. and so, you would think that then speaker mike johnson would be doing everything he could to try to get this aid to them. and especially in the wake of the navalny stuff. i think we need to be sending a

message as america and say we will stand on the side of freedom, and not on the side of evil and putin, but instead it seems like speaker mike johnson is more concerned with appeasing donald trump. >> and that could play out post election. that is something that used to be a fundamental of the republican party. i want to ask you, i was struck, i mentioned this to you during the break, i read through the transcript of your conversation from yesterday with alyssa farah, and cassidy hutchinson. i was just struck by how your three young women who are powerfully having your voices heard, courageously. you were being attacked from the right, attacked by members of the maga base. i just wanted to ask about your friendship, and kind of, do you have a text chain? how do you guys stay in touch? are there other people that you think are going to be out there between now and the election, that will join your text chain, i should say? >> i'm so grateful for cassidy and alyssa and also i will add to that olivia troye and

stephanie grisham. they are some of the women from the trump administration who have also spoken out. and yeah, i have a text chain with them. we talk in it almost daily, if not daily, then definitely multiple times a week. i think speaking out against the former u.s. president can be a very isolating and scary feeling. but it definitely gives me a lot of strength and i have these women by my side to get through this together, and i'm hopeful that more republicans will come -- >> anyone on your mind? >> i don't know, i think that obviously we look around and it's mainly the women and especially young women who are speaking out. i would encourage maybe the men who are twice my age, who held way higher positions of power than me, who also know that donald trump is unfit to serve, to speak out. and i know that we've got some time before election day. but i'm hoping that as we get closer and they see the threat that donald trump is and a very real chance that he could be president again, and that they will come forward. >> you know what, that is my

shorthand. let me ask, you've been very clear you don't want president trump to be back in the white house. you've courageously talked about the threat. you are a republican. that's why you joined the white house, you worked with republicans candidate. are you open to supporting joe biden? >> yeah. i have said that if it is a choice between donald trump and joe biden in the general election, that even if i don't agree with the policies of president biden, that i would put policy aside and i would cast my vote for him for democracy. because i look at donald trump, and this is someone who has shown us he will not uphold the constitution. and so, there is no question in my mind, and then, that i would be voting for joe biden. but i'll say, right now, my support has been with nikki haley. i'm really encouraged to see her performance last night in south carolina. i know she lost, but look, she garnered 40% of the vote. and that shows that there is a faction in the republican party that wants to leave donald trump behind. it gives me hope for the future. >> you are a nikki haley

supporter. if she is not on the ballot, joe biden can count on your vote. sarah matthews, thank you so much for joining, me and for your courage to speak out. i know it's not easy, really appreciate it. coming up, the law firm weissmann and katyal is standing by to discuss what might be the most bogus legal argument from donald trump yet. and -- says a bank robber legally bought the gun he used. i love andrew's analogies always. we are back after a quick break. we are back after a quick break. if you're like me, one of the millions suffering from pain caused by migraine, nurtec odt may help. it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt. a force to be reckon with. no, not you saquon. hm? you! your business bank account with quickbooks money, now earns 5% apy. 5% apy? that's new!

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of all of the cockamamie legal arguments that trump and his lawyers have made, few are crazy than we heard this week. in an effort to get his classified documents case dismissed, trump is now claiming that the records that he retained from the white house were actually designated as his personal property. that is not how it works by the way. and according to trump, they belong to him simply because he removed them from the white house. he just takes the records and presto, he owns them. here is the kicker because trump was still president when

he took those records, he claims he's entitled to presidential immunity. and therefore can't be prosecuted for obtaining them. of course, this claim of immunity is nothing new, it is the same argument he made in the federal election case, and it could soon be settled by the supreme court. joining me now is everyone's favorite house law firm, is neal katyal the former acting u.s. solicitor general, andrew weissmann is the former general counsel at the fbi and a senior member of special counsel robert mueller's team. he's also the coauthor of a brand-new book coming out this week, the trump indictments, the historic charging documents with commentary. neal, let me start with you. i'm not a lawyer, as we all know. i have dealt with classified documents, however, and these arguments do seem pretty farfetched, it's not exactly how it works. even if trump was allowed to take whatever he wanted, he was charged with illegally retaining those documents, even after they were subpoenaed. how does this help his case? i'm assuming it does not. but break it all down for us. >> yeah, it doesn't. i think the first thing to note is just the relationship between this discussion and the when you are just having with sarah matthews. miss matthew said that trump's policies are antithetical to

the rule of law and democracy. here he is doing the same thing. he is saying, i'm immune and i will delay all these cases against me. so that i don't have to face the wheels of justice. again, it's about being antithetical to the rule of law and democracy. here, his claim is, you know, a look, i am immune while i'm president, even though that was flatly rejected by the nation's second highest court a couple weeks ago. as you point, out it doesn't matter. because he is charged with retaining documents after he was president. so it's not about his presidential duties. it connects to the overall problem with trump, which is always a heads i win, tails you lose theory of presidential accountability. when he was president, he said, i can't be indicted because i'm a sitting president. you can only impeach me. he was then impeached. then he says, you can't impeach me, you can only indict me after i leave office. he's then indicted after he leaves office. then he says, you can't indict

me because i was never impeached. it's all just a show here. >> it makes your head spin. andrew, there is a lot of immunity claims being thrown out there, as was neal alluding to. the supreme court is weighing whether to take up trump's first claim of immunity in the federal election case. as we discussed, and you've pointed out, if the even take up the case, it will delay the federal election case. how does this claim, or does it, impact their decision or consideration about whether or not to take the case? >> well, from donald trump's perspective, there is sort of no downside in doing this, because at the very least he is throwing sand in the gears in connection with a florida case. the motions, as you and neil have just discussed, are frivolous. but that doesn't mean that it won't give the excuse for judge cannon to continue to delay the case, which she so far has

grabbed onto, every single one of those. with respect to the supreme court, they are not directly related. you know, again, i can't imagine that trump's lawyers are thinking, no downside if the court sees that there is a second claim for immunity, and a very different context, then after he is president. you think you wouldn't be able to make that claim. but that means this will be litigated in a different circuit, the case before them is in the d. c. circuit. they have another case. there could be some justices who are going to grab on to that as a reason to take a case. that is something that if you are donald trump's lawyers probably was in the back of their mind. i'm not sure it'll succeed, but they get no downside for them to make this argument. >> it's all a little maddening. neil, we are rolling around through all the cases. -- aileen cannon, i think it is fair to say has been unusually sympathetic to trump in the

documents case. these new case -- claims come from, just go back to that case. they seem like still a bridge too. far i know it is hard to predict what a judge will do, but how do you think she will be looking at this? >> well, i think any fair minded judge would take these claims and throw them out pretty much right away. in addition to the immunity claim, we were just talking about this claim that the special counsel is unconstitutional, presidents of both parties, george w. bush and others, have used these exact regulations and have found no constitutional defects. i think those claims are weak. as well as the other ones. this is a judge who has been rebuked twice by the court of appeals in her very conservative circuit for going out and bending over backwards to try to protect donald trump. my hope is that she has learned her lesson. we will find out maybe as early as friday whether she will keep that may 20th trial date, extended, how long she will extend it. obviously, there is a concern if he extends it past the election that donald trump wins and it will nullify this prosecution or get it dropped,

and then of course no accountability for him. for what are very serious crimes, and any government official of any party who did anything like this it would've been indicted by now, would be indicted, and indeed convicted by now. >> andrew weissmann, neal katyal, thank you as always for explaining all the legal things to us. really appreciate your time. coming up after alabama paused ivf treatment following what a state supreme court ruling, i've got a couple questions, like, and does tommy tuberville even know what ivf is? i think you know the answer to that. and donald trump is now voicing support for ivf, i think we all forgot who we are dealing with in the first place? i will remind you, i will do my best to control my rage on this one, but we will be right back. one, but we will be right back. . for you. for you. this is not just design because your e-class... it adapts to you. it recognizes you. understands you. empowers you. energizes you. feels you.

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ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. this week, several hospitals in alabama, including the biggest in the state, took the devastating step of pausing in vitro fertilization treatment. and they did that because the

alabama supreme court recently ruled that embryos created through ivf are considered children. let's just say the responses we've heard from some republicans since all of this happened have been incredibly revealing. alabama senator tommy tuberville is exhibit a. in fact, he earned himself exhibit a, b, and c. >> do you have a reaction to the alabama supreme court ruling on the fact that embryos are children? >> yeah, i was all for it. you know, you've just got to look at everything going on in the country, it is just a tackle on family, a attack on kids. anything we can do for the future of our young, people they are number one commodity. we need to have more kids, we need to have opportunities to do that. >> i mean, he is all for ending ivf treatment, but we need more kids. obviously, it doesn't take a medical degree to know that those two statements are blatant contradictions, which, nbc's dasha quickly pointed out. >> ivf is used to have more children and right now ivf

services are paused at some of the clinics in alabama. are you concerned that this could impact people trying to have kids? >> well, that's for another conversation. >> what do you say to the women right now in alabama who no longer have access to ivf? -- what do you say to them? >> well, that is a hard one. >> that's a hard one. is it, tommy tuberville? it's clearly a very hard one for you. but watching that interview, it seems very likely to me that tommy tuberville, senator tommy tuberville did not have a clue what ivf is, clearly. maybe someone on his staff explained it to him after that debacle, because he has since come out in support of ivf. but to be fair, he isn't the only one who seems very confused. senator tim scott said he had not studied the issue. i mean, does it really require a study, senator scott? at first, nikki haley said flat out, embryos are babies. and then she said, well, i didn't say i agree with the

alabama ruling. and then in her third try she said, i think that the court was doing it based on the law, and i think alabama needs to go back and look at the law. not to be a done, of course, how speaker mike johnson says he supports ivf, calling it a blessing for many moms and dads who have struggled with fertility. sounds good. however, it is completely berserk at best because he is currently a co-sponsor of a fetal personhood bill, which just like the alabama ruling, gives fertilized eggs legal protection without -- carveouts for ivf treatments. basically, to sum this all of, he has proposed doing the same thing as the alabama ruling, but making it federal law. and this pretty sudden shift from some of these republicans is, because wait for, it ivf is extremely popular. former trump advisor kellyanne conley circulated polling to congressional republicans back in december, showing 85% of americans supported increasing access to ivf. of course. 78% of self-identified pro-life voters and 83% of evangelicals

said the same. donald trump clearly doesn't have a moral compass on any issue relating to women our families. after all, he is backing a 16- week national abortion ban because he likes that it's an even number. but he does not to read a poll. that's why he just came out in support of ivf, and urged alabama to reverse course. the thing is, donald trump really hopes you forget that donald trump is the reason we arrived at this point. >> i did something nobody thought was possible. i got rid of roe v. wade. nobody did a job like i did, including roe v. wade, bringing it back to the states. what i did by killing roe v. wade, which everyone said was impossible -- i was able to terminate roe v. wade, after 50 years of trying. they worked for 50 years. i've never seen anything like it. they worked -- and i was so honored to have done it. >> i was so honored to have

done it. what donald trump bragged about doing, the thing he is so proud of doing, opened the door to what we are witnessing an alabama right now. alabama supreme court ruling literally cites the dobbs decision by my count 15 times. some republicans will twist themselves into knots. others will shout their support for ivf from the rooftops, after the steadiest, i guess. but this is on them. they want us to forget how we got here and we shouldn't let them. coming up, a story about two former presidents who both wanted to be president again. spoiler alert, only one of them is doing it under criminal indictment in four different jurisdictions. we'll be right back. jurisdicti. we'll be right back. than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. nothing makes a gathering great like eggland's best eggs. they're just so delicious. with better nutrition, too. for us, it's eggs any style.

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ask your doctor today. so much about donald trump's time in politics, both during and after his time in office, has been unprecedented, to put it diplomatically. and not the good unprecedented. he's the first to ever be impeached twice. he's the first to obstruct the transfer of power. he's the first to be criminally indicted. and he recently became the first to ever encourage a u.s. adversary to attack a u.s. ally. that may explain why historians recently put trump dead last in an annual ranking of the former u.s. presidents, in a survey by the american political science association. what's not unprecedented, however, is that trump is not the first former president to seek the white house for a second term. a few have tried, but the only person to have successfully pulled that off his grover

cleveland, who served non consecutive terms as the country's 22nd and 24th president. cleveland is one of seven former chief executives whose stories are told in a new book, life after power by author jared cohen. it's a look at how presidents cope with life once out of office. and it's a further reminder that when it comes to the history of the presidency in this country, donald trump is the exception and not the rule. joining me now is jared cohen, author of the new book, life after power. so, jared, your book is so great. i've been reading it, really enjoyed it. learned a lot about presidents and their post presidency. but one of the people i did not expect to start our conversation with is grover cleveland. few people are talking about him, or have been talking about him for decades, but there is this interesting parallel. and you have an entire chapter about this in your book. it turns out, as you say, former presidents are very bad at running for president, except grover cleveland. he won the white house in 1884, lost it in 1888, but then made a comeback in 1892, that is

maybe where the parallels and. trump is running again after losing in 2020. what can we take away from the grover cleveland example as we look to cover the next nine months of this campaign? >> thank you for having me, jen. the similarity is, of course, 2024 is likely to feature the only presidential rematch with the two candidates and the two major parties, other than 1892 when grover cleveland came back to challenge the incumbent benjamin harrison. that's kind of like -- grover cleveland never lost the popular vote in 1888. he threw away the presidency, much to the frustration of the democratic party bosses, because he stood on principle against a terrifying -- eaten thing the country needed it. he never been happier when he threw away the presidency. he had gotten married while president. he wanted to start a family. he enjoyed the peace and tranquility of his post presidency. what brought him back in the 1892 was that same sense of principle. saving the country from economic ruin, the growing tide

of imperialism, and so forth. >> a bit different, as you noted today. i want to get the president taft, you talk about him also in your book. we are at this moment right now where the power of the judiciary and specifically the supreme court could have a real impact on our political system and as somebody who served as president and chief justice, he's such a unique rule in our history. he wrote something you talk about in your book, an opinion that basically defined what it means to defraud the government, which is an issue in the present day. in your book, you write this. in the courts opinion, taft wrote, it doesn't just mean cheating washington out of money, it also means to interfere with or obstruct lawful government functions by deceit, craft, or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest. you are quoting him there, of course. this is a reminder that throughout history there were efforts to prepare for the moment we are facing now. this was, obviously, more than 100 years ago. as you say in your book, trump will essentially have to pass the taft test, which i thought was pretty interesting connection to today. >> went after wrote hamish mid

versus the united states, i don't think he expected to be weighing in on the 2024 presidential election. >> probably not. >> the other thing that is interesting about taft, he wrote extensively about the unchecked powers of the executive branch, particularly as it pertains to foreign policy. if you look at the 2024 presidential election, it's not going to be about foreign policy, but it's going to have a huge impact on foreign policy. if you look at what is happening between the u.s. and china and what is happening with the war in the middle east, what's happening with the war in ukraine, the world is watching to see the outcome of this election, because it has profound consequences. and william howard taft is the only president who served at the top of two branches of the u.s. government. i look at seven different presidents in this book, each representing a different model. the taft model is a model of a man who never wanted anything other than being in the supreme court. he revealed -- reveal a word the -- chief justice of the supreme court, and at the end of his life, somebody asked him

what he enjoyed more, being president or being chief justice? he says, i hardly remember i was ever president. >> jared cohen, thank you. the book is life after power. you are such an amazing storyteller. it is such an interesting read. it is available now where you get your books. thank you so much for joining me. >> thank you, jen. >> i've got one more thing to tell you about today. it is something we are working on for tomorrow night at eight pm eastern. stay with us. we will be right back. with us we will be right back. with nurtec odt i can treat and prevent my migraine attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. ♪

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that does it for me today, but i'm really looking forward to tomorrow night, because we have an all-star lineup of guests including preet bharara, the former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. certainly no shortage of topics to cover with him, at all, as the countdown starts for donald trump to put up the money to appeal his civil fraud judgment in new york. plus, michigan congresswoman elissa slotkin will join us on the eve of the primary day in her state. those two guests are on tap for tomorrow night at eight pm eastern. for, now stay where you are, because there's much more news coming up on msnbc. on msnbc. on this hour, of eamon, -- battle over the president support for israel.