mike lindell is one part of. that >> i appreciate you coming on, angelo carusone, thank you so much. that does it for me. this is all in on this saturday, this thursday, rather night. i'm michael steele in for chris hayes. i will be back here at eight pm tomorrow night. and then back on msnbc for the weekend and atm on sunday and saturday with my co-host elisa menendez and symone sanders- townsend. alex when wagner starts. now good evening, alex.

thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. in november of 2022 just five months after roe v. wade was overturned by thewa supreme cou, former vice president mike pence sat down for an interview on cbs. >> well, the dobbs decision this summer, i was so grateful to see, the majority of which was made up by supreme court justices that we appointed and confirmed to the -- to the court. it really gave the country a new beginning forou life. >> it was a new beginning for life according to the most pious

man in the trump white house, a man so conservative he would not allow himself to be alone in the same room with a woman who was not his wife. mike pence was unafraid to be a christian warrior. he was unafraid to call for a national abortion ban when other members of his partyn shied aw from the issue. but then mike pence was asked about invitro fertilization. >> there are people who are concerned that ifpl you start wh abortion access restrictions that it will also lead to restrictions on ivf treatment. if you believe life begins at conception, you can make that argument. should it be protected as a right? >> the vice president began his answer with details about his and his wife's struggles with infertility and using invitro to conceive their children. and that led mike pence to this. >> butpe i fully support fertily treatments, and i think they deserve the protection of the

law.de they gave us great comfort in those long and challenging years that we struggled with infertility in our marriage. >> mike pence was a sign that republicans should have better heeded. overturning roe would lead to all kindswo of unforeseen consequences, consequences even the most die hard christian conservatives would have a hard timeva reconciling, consequence that would affect even their families. whether republicans wanted today bury their hands in the sand or whether they truly believed the christian conservatism they had injected t into american law wod not wreak havoc in untold ways, it appears now they have no plan to deal with any of this. the alabama supreme court ruled last week that embryos are children, and that decision has already caused multiple clinics in theed state to pause their invitro fertility services, which is just a devastating

development for families in that state eagera to have children. and evene though this is only happening in alabama so far, the political implications are vast because as it turns out a lot of peoplet across the country nee fertility care and they're not justca democrats. "the new york times" estimates overem 7 million women had reportedil receiving infertilit care, citing a cdc survey from 2019. 12% of american women, women undergoing ivf are mostly high income and white and they have at least somete higher educatio. last year former trump campaign manager kelly anne conway warned congressional republicans about thena political disaster that w looming in theli wake of the dos decision. her polling showed that 86% of american voters support ivf. among people who call themselves pro-life, ivf has 78% support. and among evangelicals, the mike pences of this country, 83% of

them support it. republicans, independents, wealthynd women, white women, a of them overwhelmingly support invitrong fertilization and als incrediblyio likely to be affecd by any restrictions imposed on it. which is why elected republicans right now have no good answer or ratherod why they have no answe at all. here is a senior senior from the state of alabama tommy tuberville. >> do you have a reactionmy to e alabama supreme court ruling on the fact embryos are children. >> mbyeah, i was all for it. we need to have more kids, have the opportunity to do that and this is -- >> ivf is used to have more children and right now ivf services are paused at some of the clinics in alabama. aren't you concerned this will impact t some people trying to have kids? >>ry well, that's another conversation. we need more kids. we need people to have the

opportunity to have kids. >> what do you say to the women in alabama who no longer have access to ivf and will not as a result of this ruling. what do o you say to them? >> well, that's a hard one. it t really is. because, again, you want people to havega that opportunity. and that's what i was telling her, we need more kids. >> someone should tell the senator if he wants people to have more kids, he might not want tods support a decision th prevents people from having more kids. yesterday morning former governor nikki haley appeared to agree with the alabama ruling telling nbc news that embryos are babies. and then yesterday evening she clarified that she did not agree with the alabama ruling. >> i didn't say that i agreed with the alabama ruling. the question that i was asked is do i believe an embryo is a baby. i do think that if you look in the definition an embryo is considered an unborn baby.

and so, yes, i believe from my stance that that is. >>th republican congressman byr donalds of florida a rising star inis the gop appeared similarly confused, expressingmi support r the alabama ruling and also ivf, which the alabama ruling now essentially prohibits. >> the alabama supreme court just ruled embryos are children. do you believe embryos are mb children? >> iry do. because embryos grow into being adults like we are. i think there are women who seek that process and that's important, that's a good thing. >> the obfuscation here, the cluelessness, the one fundamental truth republicans a losing this is issue for them. when abortion rights-wheel reproductive righterize on the ballot, democrats win. this has happened over and over again since the dobbs ruling in kentucky, in ohio, in pennsylvania. and ifin republicans know this truth, so do democrats.

vice president kamala harris addressed the alabama decision this afternoon. >> the irony of it all is on the one hand these proponents are suggesting that an individual and a woman does not have the right to end an unwanted pregnancy, and on the other hand does not have the right to become pregnant if that is her choice and her desire and her dream. >> you will be hearing a lot of that in the next nine months. inxt a statement today presiden biden's campaign manager said what is happening in alabama right now is only possible because donald trump's supreme court justices overturned roe v. wade. in the meantime donald trump will be speaking tonight at the national religious broadcasters convention in nashville, tennessee, just about 85 miles away from the state of alabama. whether he is asked about abortion and ivf is unknown, but either way he better come up with an answer. joining meth now are tim miller

writer at large at the bulwark, and michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for "the new york times." thank you both for being here. so, michelle. >> ergod. >> i will say, i'm not one to say mike pence is cassandra. not even a cassandra because he wasn'tsa predicting doom. that 2020 interview is so ilustrative of the bind republicans find themselves in if not completely of their making. what are your expectations of this issue and the 2024 election? could it be inwhole ball game? >> i think on this very narrow issue of ivf my guess is they try to do something to clarify it. in alabama you see there's a republican senator who's saying, well, maybe we'll say life doesn't begin at conception, it begins at implantation in the uterus, they're a running up against theth totally foreseeab limits of lldefining a baby or

defining person hood the way they haveho chosen to do so, right?ch and this is something everybody -- all pro-choice people have been warning about for years, that personhood language, language about life beginning at aconception. itbe impacts abortion but impac much more than abortion. it impacts birth control, impacts infertility treatments. they might find a way to square this particular circle on this issue. what they haven't contended with is that the practical implications of all the laws they've thoughtlessly passed without any real due diligence about kind of the actual process of human reproduction so we see over and over again, for example, it's not just these kind of laws impact ivf. we see they impact miscarry treatment, we see they impact maternal health care. because none of this -- they haven't thoughtis this through because they haven't thought through both the ways their

ideology collides with reality, and they haven't really thought that much if at all about women's health beyond how they can control. >> right. tim, it's like are you winning if you're stipulating where in the uterus the embryo needs to be? i just feel this is really unfror seen consequence of everything thefr republicans ha been wishing for decades. >> i definitely feel uncomfortable talking about uterus location. >> don't be. it's a welcoming environment here. tim. >> good. i love that. i appreciate that. that is a problem. here's the thing. i think it's a misnomer and understanding about trump, his lastou successful election win 2016. back then in that campaign there's a big group of voters that perceived him as like basically moderate. i know that's a hard for a lot of viewers of this show and, you know, others, thinking people to believe. a lot ofth voters look to him le ah, he's a libertine, he's from new york, l doesn't care about

these social issues. it's the far right christians i don't like, and these are the working class voters, the conservative voters. doug mastriano runs in pennsylvania with abortion ban for five weeks, he gets slaughtered, loses by like 18 points, 17 points. the gap between trump and mastriano was this perception trump is not a far right christian fundamentalest like some of these other republicans that allowed him to appeal to some of the more secular working class voters that like trump. that is why it's such a huge problem for him, and that's why you see him panicking about it and grasping around for various solutions like the 16-week ban or whatever he floated in "the new york times." >> well, yeah, and that's the problem what's happened with the republican party until 2016 and now. the6 full throated endorsementf

christian nationalism. there are headlines i think in politico that trump allies prepare to infuse christian nationalism in second trump administration. "the new york times" is reporting trump is going to embrace a s 16-week abortion ba. whether or not trump himself is a libertine from new york the party's moved deep, deep right. >> there are voters who don't blame trump or don't attribute the end of roe v. wade to donald trump. this is the work the democratic party is going to have to do over the next few months. although i think we know donald trump could not care less one way or another about abortion and has declined to say whether he's ever paid for one himself, we know that the people who are going to staff his administrationgo and certainly staff the courts are the sort of people like this guy in texas who came close -- who tried to revoke the authorization of the abortion -- revoke the fda's authorization of the abortion

bill. right. and that politico story was about someone who's a likely trump chief of staff in the next administration who they're talking about not just abortion but contraception, no fault divorce, gay marriage. and so -- you know, donald trump is obviously not a man with a great deal of attention to detail. so these are the people going to be essentially making policy in the next trump administration. i shouldn'tmp say the next trum administration. in a next trump administration. >> people are having cardiac arrest.ha to that end -- i almost called you trump. i'm so sorry. these white christian nationalists are having designs on the white house and we're the ones calling the shots. i don't think that. the courts are going to do what the courts are going to do. donald trump does he at some point answer -- i think it's amazing in this moment he's

going to sitin down with christn broadcasters in the state of tennessee less than 100 miles from10 alabama and think someho this issue if not today, if not tomorrow, some time is going to come up and he's going to have to answer for it not necessarily because of the fake news media is going to ask him but interested christian nationalists may want to know if he's for real about it all. >> the christian media is going to ask him about it, they're going to want himin to do that. and there are going to be people, look, there's activists out there funded his -- excuse me, that were staffed to his last administration part of this project in 2025 and planning to go into 2 the next administrati. trump does not have attention to detail who's going to be the mid-level staffers at hhs that have oversight over this kind of thing. he made his deal within the dev. he got in 2016 by outsourcing the judgeless to the federalist society. and this is that payment coming due. if it wasn't true, if he wasn't

in line with the far right social conservatives on all these issues, then, you know, he should have tried to put up justices that were more in line with whatever he thinks he really believes, right? and that was an option that would have been available to the president in 2016. he didn't doen that, and here's where we're at. >>e' michelle, you said you thi republicans in the state of alabama willbl thread the needl and effectively and say an embryo implanted in the walls of it uterus. knows? maybe i'm overestimating them but -- >> well, yeah, hard to do. i dod think, though, even if there's a kind of syntactical work around, the mere threat -- i meanhe they shutdown ivf procedures at the nation's i think eighth largest hospital. the threat ofk that is very re toat families across the countr. >> and it's not just alabama because alabama is not alone in having this kindot of language that passed before roe v. wade at life beginning at conception. yeah, kind of anybody who lives

in a red state who has a fertility appointment coming up, and people wait for these appointments with an extraordinary amount of concern and anxiety, they're going have to wonder whether one judge's ruling or one court's ruling could throw their carefully laid plans into chaos. >> indeed. you know, and i will say this is the kind of stuff you share these concerns, these worries -- this is the kind of stuff you share with you close friends, with your relatives. this is the kind of thing, this is the kind of worry and stress that is shared among communities. and so even if it's happening in alabama, people in pennsylvania and people in michigan and people in georgia and people in arizona and nevada all can understand the fear,ne the sadns and the real concern about the future thaton the people of alabama -- the families of alabama feel. it does not live and die in the state of alabama. michelle goldberg, tim miller,

thank you for your time tonight. really appreciate you guys. we've got aal lot more to g to thist evening including the annual gathering of cpac where you can buy woke tears in a bottle and play january 6th pin ball and also hear a whole bunch ofar mularkly about michelle obama. but first a judge presiding over the trump's civil fraud trial smacks down the delay to pay the piper. things could get very expensive for mr. trump soon. we'll have more on that after the break. r mr. trump soon we'll have more on that after the break.

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and now mr. trump is trying his best to delay the reckoning. in addition to vowing to appeal this ruling last night trump's lawyers asked the judge here, judge arthur engoron, for a 30-day stay, a pause that will essentially push back the deadline when trump has to pay up. once judge engoron's ruling is official, once the clerk enters it into the system which could happen as soon as tomorrow morning, then the clock starts. trump's legal team will have 30 days to file its appeal. but in order for trump to do that, he must first post bond, which means putting down the entire $450 million in damages plus interest. every day trump fails to do so once the clock starts, he'll owe an additional $87,000 in interest every day. that is a lot of money and not a lot of time. and today in a short very terse e-mail judge engoron denied trump's request for more time.

he failed to explain much less justify any basis for a stay. i am confident that the appellate tuition will protect their appellate rights. joining me to discuss is lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst and everybody's not so secret weapon at this point. lisa, thank you for being here. first off judge engoron's e-mail is -- it's almost as if he want to write back unsubscribe, like take me off this mailing list, i have no interest on dealing with you on any of these matters anymore. did you read that as particularly as shall we say sharp or is that pro forma? >> judge engoron can be very sharp. a colleague wrote me a text today after seeing that e-mail and said he's done. and my response was he was done in november. right, they exhausted his patience many months ago. >> and now it is not redowned to donald trump's favor. so the question is, you know,

he -- the clock could effectively begin this week, tomorrow. >> yes. >> asap. >> correct. >> if donald trump can't find someone to give him a cool half a billion or thereabouts what is the next step for letitia james? >> let's say donald trump does not post this bond, then letitia james has to start taking steps on what's called exculating on the judgment. she can try to do that by trying to seize his personal property. she can also do that by trying to seize bank accounts. but when we're talking about the properties at issue on this case i would caution people who think tissh james and can get -- >> and put a sign on the door that says seized. >> that's not how it's going to work. and on top of that donald trump has a lot of creditors.

tish james is not the only prospective creditor. as of tomorrow she'll be a judgment creditor, but donald trump has outstanding loans in the ten of millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars with respect to the very same properties at issue in this new york civil fraud trial. >> does this -- i think we have a little graphic of the number of creditors of trump's had, which may be illegible. is it an arms race here? if tish james starts calling in the debts, does that then scare other creditors potentially who think oh, maybe he's not going to be solvent for that much longer. >> not only that but if she obtains a judgment lien, which is a piece of paper that allows her to seize property and prevent him from selling things that in and of itself might be a default under some of his outstanding loans, which would allow a particular lender to go out and keep the collateral.

so there are a lot of complex moving parts here involving donald trump's business empire, the various lenders and creditors that he has, and she'll have to figure out what assets he has that can quickly and easily be liquidated without the other people in line already. >> so it could devolve into some sort of feeding frenzy. >> it could. and it could even prompt him to file for personal bankruptcy. because, again, in this order donald trump and the business entities that were found liable are what's called jointly and severably liable. that means any one of them can be liable for the whole of the judgment attributed to them. that also means donald trump can't escape this just by plunging those business entities themselves into bankruptcy because that would leave him individually on the hook for the totality of it. the only way to escape it altogether would be to file for personal bankruptcy, which would

place an automatic stay on further litigation including judgment execution. >> wow. just walk me through a creditor. it can't be a creditor from -- sorry, not a creditor, someone who may post bond for trump. >> yep. >> that person or that group cannot be based in new york city, is that right, or new york state? >> under the existing order he can no longer borrow money from institutions that are registered or chartered in new york state. however, if you're appealing that judgment and staying that judgment theoretically that particular provision wouldn't be in effect while he appeals it. there are lots of financial institutions that probably fall outside of that, there are also wealthy, wealthy individuals. and as our colleague rachel maddow has said even foreign countries that might have an interest in loaning this money to him. i asked the attorney general's office earlier this week would we know as the public who loaned

this money and would you even know as the attorney general's office and the answer was we're not clear on that. it's not clear whether we'll have any transparency as to how he gets the money to post a bond if he does indeed post a bond. >> well, that could be a significant national security concern given the fact he is running for the highest office in the land and foreign interference is a very real thing when you're talking about donald trump. lisa rubin, thank you for supplying us for important graphics and information this evening. >> i'll come back for something more exciting. >> reporter: just stick around for the rest of hour. still ahead president biden meet with alexei navalny while republicans try not to say the name putin and assassination in the same sentence. but first are you interested in a hand crafted maga hammock, or how about a bottle of woke tears. more from the political conservative action conference next. m the political conservative action conference next but a treatment can be.

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it was like the world's weirdest flea market. there were bedazzled handguns and january 6th pin ball machine were the goal was to get the balls into a mini version of the capitol while trump's speech from the ellipse that day blared on repeat. and plenty of let's call it art depicting donald trump.

cpac, the annual political conservative action conference is apparently just as bad as you might have imagined. if you wanted to own the libs you could pick one of these maga hammocks that quote-unquote swing right. you can get something that says fake news for the low price of $500 pore buy a bottle of woke tears, $20 for a six pack. to be clear that is just water. but the most interesting thing we saw at cpac today did not come from a merch tent. the most interesting thing at cpac today was this. >> barack and michelle working in conjunction with the deep state, all the agencies we know are so deeply corrupt, they will make some sort of move. >> biden will step aside or be pushed aside and they'll try at the convention to go with kamala. >> the most devout democrat constituency is black women. so if they were to bounce kamala, that voting block would

be absolutely enraged. the only way you square that circle is by running another woman of color and michelle meet that -- that thing. >> that's right, barack and michelle obama working in conjunction with the deep state are going to push president biden aside and then kamala harris or michelle obama will take his place. if you think that is insane or if the optics of entirely wite panel pedaling conspiracy theories about two prominent black women makes you, say, uncomfortable consider the title of this panel. >> ladies and gentlemen, up next cat fight, michelle versus kamala harris. >> the only problem anyone seemed to have with the title "cat fight" was this. >> cat fight, kamala versus michelle, why are you ruining cat fights for us? >> i mean what else would you

call a conversation about two of the most accomplished and influential black women in america? believe it or not, this is actually not the most problematic or racially problematic conversation republicans have had this week about one of the democrat's most reliable voting blocks. we're going to bring you the conversation that literally takes the cake coming right up next. t literally takes the cake coming right up next arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? make it arexvy.

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i was on social media last night, very interesting as you

see black support eroding from joe biden, this is connecting with black america because they love sneakers. they're into sneakers. they love -- it's a big deal certainly in the inner city. so when you have trump rollout his sneaker line, they're like wait a minute, this is cool. he's reaching them on a level that defies and is above politics. >> they love that. that was hay raymond aroya, a fox news contributor and the author of children's books including the spider who saved christmas, that is how he assessed trump's standing in black america following the launch of his $399 never surrender high tops, a surefire way to bring inner city black voters into the maga tent because they love sneakers. not sensitive policy proposals on racial equity or quality health care or economic freedom but because they love sneakers. if conservatives are trying to attract black voters they have a very funny way of showing it

using thinly veiled racist tropes. lucky for us trymaine lee has been on the ground talking to black voters about what they want and why some are considering voting for donald trump. host of the podcast into america presents uncounted millions, the power of reparations. we're going to talk about that in a second trymaine, such a pleasure to have you here. man, can trymaine talk about how gross this is. >> i think i can. >> first of all, gold sneakers that's what black america wants. >> that's it. we've been here for a few hundred years red lining, you know, deprivation of all forms, lack of access to health care and quality education and housing, but it's the sneakers. it's so insulting. what's amazing is my social media has been blowing up and my dms, i reposted something about sneakers. this is maddening especially when you think about the ongoing

suffering of so many communities that have been deprived access to full citizenship in so many ways. but the cynical idiocy, that's insulting. >> you have spent time interviewing black men in america what they want from their political leaders. some are interested, curious, maybe even supporting donald trump. when you sort of think about them and their value set, if they hear something like that, if they see these high top sneakers in the way the right wing is pushing them as the answer to black america's prayers, does not -- does that not make them question whether the republican party is the right place for them? >> in all honesty the people i talk to are less enchanted somehow with the republican party and donald trump than they are saying that the democrats haven't done a good job in coming to us and messaging. and there are all these promises never met. so it's not the idea of dangling

literally something sheeny in front of their eyes, black voters even those that have interesting political ideas, they aresivy enough and black voters are practical and pragmatic, it's not going to be some sneakers going to get you to vote for donald trump. >> right. i do wonder if there's a deterrent effect. for example, cpac has a panel entitled cat fight, michelle vs. kamala. using it as a scare tactic for white conservatives using what a -- we should play a bit of sound what they said about michelle obama so that the racism is front and center. let's hear it. >> bill clinton was our first black president, that makes her technically, she would be our first black woman president. >> i guess so. >> and kamala harris could be our first black woman president. and michelle, well -- >> look, look, to be clear -- >> the insinuation in the right

wing on that stage is that michelle obama is somehow not a woman. >> right. >> i just wonder when you have garbage like that spoken about someone who is so deeply meaningful not just to black america but to americans and anybody who respects the offices of the presidency and the first lady, is that not a deterrent to black folks who might otherwise be giving republicans a shot? i keep asking it like i want it to be but it's okay if it's not. >> i don't think the people that would be voting for far right white supremacist -- here's the thing, to be black in america you always have to be navigating and deciding the lesser of two, three, four, five evils anyway. if you're from detroit and the working class and you're a union guy, you still have to hang around with some guys who might be a little racist who also might vote in your interest. so that's not super surprising. but, again, that's still such a small margin of black voters who

find some appeal in that anyway. >> can we talk about what black voters actually do want rather than this sort of off putting language being spouted about them on the stage at cpac? you have an incredible series about reparations that is out now. and we talk about reparations often as a theoretical idea, but the fact is there are a very small number of black folks who in the aftermath of the civil war actually received reparations. can you tell a little -- the audience who has not heard the podcast yet a little bit of the story of gabriel copely? >> this story is brand new to me and brand new to viewers that listen to it podcast. gabriel copely beginning in the 1850s started to free his family. he was already a free man and successful businessman. he told oysters. he was somehow able to pull together enough money to buy his family's freedom. washington, d.c. had a big population of free black people who also live right next door to

enslaved black people including some families. and so his wife, his sister and six children were all still enslaved. so he began to purchase their freedom, courageous enough. and then in 1862, you know, abraham lincoln said we can't be in a civil war demanding freedom for enslaved people and in washington, d.c. there are still slaves. so he signed the compensated emancipation act of 1862 which freed the enslaved people in the district but also paid off enslavers saying it's reparations for slavery. so the federal government for the fist time paid reparations for slavery but for white enslavers. what you had to do is bring in receipts, describe your property you were losing -- say you were loyal to the union, so look at this list 1,000 names the most powerful people, the founder of the willard hotel, the founder of briggs bank, a key advisor to lincoln all getting paid for their lost property --

>> their lost slaves. >> their lost slaves, their humans who suffered through tortured servitude. gabriel copely pops up, a black man. he found a loophole. because there was still slavery in the district, he never registered his family as free people. so technically they were still his property, and show he becomes -- >> he was able to get reparations. >> it was gabriel copely but also five other names of black people, a woman who purchased her husband, someone else who purchased her son when he was just a boy. so when wrestled with this idea what it would have meant, what could have been, and what we see through the family line of gabriel copely, doctors, lawyers, deans of colleges, you know, savvy -- someone who won the national medal of freedom. >> wow, it's a story of what the power of economic enfranchisement. >> and that's what black people want because what's been denied us since we've been here is full access to the fruits of america. we talk about red lining, the lack of giving of g.i. loans so

after you serve your country you come home and buy a nice home. >> institutional racism. >> cites it's so braided into this country and we've never had full access. >> i want to say something corny like tour de force, but it's so important to be hearing these stories right now when you have such reductive garbage happening elsewhere. i specify where. i encourage everyone to listen to the podcast. i've known you for 15 years. my friend, congratulations on the podcast. >> thank you for having me. >> appreciate you. we have one more story up ahead, just one more. maga world's double speak about the death of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. susan glasser joins me to help me decode what it all means. that's next. e what it all means. that's next. and ticks! (♪♪) intestinal worms! whoa! heartworm disease!

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we've seen trump's legal woes and the death of, in what wayerize the two splar? >> i think you'd have to ask him exactly what he meant, but i think we're talking about target ing a politico foe. >> and do you believe putin is responsible for the death of navalny? >> i don't enough to comment on that. >> that 28 seconds tells you everything you need to know about the trump world position on the death of opposition leader alexei navalny. they want you to think trump is

just like navalny, that he too is being targeted by his political opponent but also they don't want to admit alexei navalny was targeted by putin, so actually no comment. by contrast president biden has had no trouble articulating his position on this. he said putin is responsible for navalny's death and has called putin a crazy s.o.b. joining me now is susan glasser, staff writer at "the new yorker." are are you at all surprised the inability by republicans to admit that putin killed navalny? >> you know, this far into the trump era that we seem to be living in, the endless version of the trump era, something is really surprising but it's kind of grotesque, alex. here we are at the third anniversary of putin's full-scale invasion of ukraine.

we're talking about hundreds of thousands, actually millions of ukrainian lives forever changed by this, people displaced, killed, tens of thousands of russians themselves dying as a result of this decision, navalny being compared to himself is really a perversion and to watch his family take over the rnc includes someone who doesn't know the difference between alexei navalny and donald trump is really -- it's not a good situation for a super power, is it? >> do you think, though, if you sort of break down the resistance to admitting putin assassinated navalny among maga republicans, do you think they are terrified of trump's retribution, or do you think they're legitimately enthralled by the strong man putin? >> you know, there's an array of motivation, shall we say, behind the different varieties of

enabling we see in today's republican party. some people seem to be ambitious or trying out for positions in the future. the trump administration, people like lindsey graham who have been willing to jettison long held positions. he claimed to be the biggest defender of ukraine and then decided at the last minute to abandon them and not vote for billions of dollars worth of military assistance and could then show his face in munich at the security conference after he did that. you know, lindsey graham seems to be somebody who knows the difference but has chosen to follow trump's line on putin. i do think there is kind of a pro-putin, pro-strong man wing of the republican party. it's not necessarily a majority even of elected republicans, but it's certainly a significant and growing minority in the house of representatives. i think that faction over the house and over speaker mike johnson is a reason why the ukraine aid has not come to a

vote. >> we have reporting today democrats are basically without saying the words -- i'm going to say it discharge petition, effectively forcing a vote on ukraine funding and they need a majority of the house to sign onto that. do you think there are enough quote-unquote moderate republicans, emphasis on the quotes, who are going to be willing to buck mike johnson and the strong man innewsiasts in the republican conference and vote with democrats to secure funding for ukraine? >> well, look, there's a reason a discharge petition is such a rarely used or rarely successful parliamentary maneuver. it's very, very hard to pull that off. one of the dynamics that's been happening over the last few months much to the detriment of ukraine and the national security standing in the world is republicans who have taken trump's position on putin and on

ukraine a condition of loyalty. and since trump makes loyalty basically the main ideological test in today's republican party, the fact ukraine has now become on the checklist i think is very bad news for supporters of ukraine, and that means that even moderate republican who are from districts that voted for biden four years ago, remember they're still members of party. they want money for their competitive races and the former president not to attack them on his social media feeds or campaign rallies. there's a variety of reasons why they might be afraid to go up against the leader of the part on something like ukraine. >> the discharge petition ripens i believe the beginning of march. so we shall see what happens. always great to talk to you. thanks for your time tonight. >> great to be with you. >> that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. but then