all of the people some of the time. or however the expression goes, you can't fool all the people all the time, is the conclusion. and i think his fooling ran out in court, in manhattan this week. it is ironic to me, as we enter the show talking about caretta scott king and dr. betty shabazz, two black women prosecutors, tough, and smart. letitia james and in florida, fani willis, that are part of bringing the truth to light. you can try and smear the, mr. trump, but at the end, only evidence counts in a court of law. that does it for me, thanks for watching, i'll see you back here tomorrow at five pm eastern, for another live hour of politicsnation. the saturday show with jonathan capehart starts right now. jon capehart starts right now.

fraud. donald trump is back on the campaign trail tonight, after a judge ordered him to pay nearly $500 million, for what new york attorney general letitia james called, quote, staggering fraud. trump calls the decision, quote, a total sham. i'll ask barbara mcquade and charles coleman junior what this means for trump's business empire, and his bottom line. i parents -- vice president kamala harris says the death of alexei navalny's proof of vladimir putin's authoritarian brutality, and his pressuring congress to help ukraine defeat him. congressman robert garcia will be here to discuss that, and more. and, beyonci, the megastar releases new country music songs. we will take a closer look at how she is reclaiming country music's roots in black culture, and why some industry forces are tuning in her out. i am jonathan capehart, this is the saturday show. >> ♪ ♪ ♪

>> donald trump is back on the campaign trail, with a rally in michigan this evening. he's also turning to a unique form of fund raising. one day after being ordered to pay nearly a half billion dollars in damages for business fraud. a few hours ago, i can't believe this. [laughter] trump launched his own line of sneaker is, at a sneaker conference in philadelphia. i am serious. take a look at these. the most expensive model is this the never surrender high top sneaker, selling for $399 a pair. that's a pricier that a maga hat or his victory 47 cologne or perfume. it smells like desperation. then again, trump could use the

money. judge arthur engoron has ordered him to pay $355 million for a penalty, plus at least $99 million in interest, that will keep increasing, or accruing, until the judgment is paid. trump is also personally banned from running a business in new york, or even getting a loan in new york, for the next three years. trump denies he ever lied about his property values or committed any fraud. he says he made the banks a lot of money, and there were no victims of his actions. new york attorney general letitia james, well, she begged to differ. >> i want to be clear. white collar financial fraud is not a victimless crime. when the powerful break the law, and take more than their fair share, there are fewer resources available for working people. small businesses, and families. >> of course, trump is planning to appeal engoron's decision,

but that wasn't the only ruling against trump this week. the judge in the new york hush money case, the first to result in criminal charges against trump, set a trial date of march 25th. joining me now, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, she is a professor at the university of michigan law school, and a co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. she is also the author of the forthcoming book, attack from within how disinformation is sabotaging america. also with me new york prosecutor charles coleman junior. he is the host of the charles coleman podcast. both are msnbc legal analysts. barbara let me start with you. and let's start with the money. how and when will the court get this 400 and $53 million from trump. and since he and his company can't get loans from any banks based in new york for the next three years, can he use campaign funds to pay it? >> so a couple of interesting factors here jonathan.

number one i, think it will be a while before he pays it because no doubt he will appeal this decision. i don't know that he will be successful, but he will certainly appeal. and in order to appeal when you owe a judgment like this, you have to put up a bond. and so, it'll be interesting to see whether he will be able to secure a bond. but that would be the first step. so he will have to do that. and then, with regard to his ability to obtain loans in new york, i think it is going to be a little bit of a challenge. but yes, i think raising funds for a legal defense fund, to pay damages, all of that is permissible under his super pac. and so, i imagine we will see more email messages sent out to donors, asking to help him pay these costs. >> or by his sneakers charles. i mean, we could talk about these sneakers. but as >> as a self proclaimed sneakerhead, i looked at myself and said, is there any area he will not touch? >> and, speakers are a passion of mine -- so this really bothers me. >> let's, charles, the judge

described trump as a terrible witness, writing, quote in his ruling, his refusal to answer the questions directly, or in some cases at all, severely compromised his credibility. does trump have any chance of overturning this decision on appeal? >> no, and i think that the reason that anger on took the time that he did to write a decision that he did, was because he wanted to essentially appeal proof it. one of the things that was on the table for conversation, jonathan, was this notion of the corporate death penalty. people were wondering, was engoron going to make a decision to strip donald trump of being able to ever do business in new york again? and i said at that point no, i don't think he is going to do so, because that would likely have exposed him to a likely appeal and reversal. we know that donald trump is going to create some grounds for appeal here, although very few exist. but the way that this opinion was written, it is so airtight that i do not believe that he has left any room on the table, the judge that is, for a reversal for donald trump to

see anything different, other than perhaps a reduction in the amount. but in terms of a complete reversal of the findings, absolutely not. >> you know, one more question for you charles. because the judge said he found former trump attorney michael cohen to be believable. here's how cohen responded, watch this. >> it validates everything that i've been saying all along. weatherwise for the mueller report to the seven congressional committees i spoke to, to the manhattan district attorney, to the new york attorney general. it validates everything that i have been saying all along. donald trump is a con man, he is a cheat, and many other things. >> your reaction? >> you know, michael cohen, in many respects, is the boy who cried wolf. and what i mean by that is, it is not to suggest that he is not being truthful, or has not been truthful about his observations around donald trump, and what he saw with respect to donald trump. but because you were that close

to the devils throne, if you will, for as long as you were, and you are willing to do his bidding in private and public, heralding him out to the public, before you went to jail. and it wasn't until you took the wrap that you then decided to, quote unquote, tell the truth. that's where the notion of his credibility comes as an issue. i do understand the feeling of vindication that he has at this point, but he could have avoided all of this by just telling the truth from the absolute start. >> but barbara, and one of the reasons why also played that clip is, i am wondering what could the engoron ruling mean for cohen's testimony in the upcoming hush money case? >> yeah, i am magic in that if you were alvin bragg and his team prosecutors, you are feeling a little bit reassured, assurance from the fact that judge engoron found that michael cohen was credible. because he is going to be a witness in that case as well. and i think they will probably approach him in the same way we

saw attorney general letitia james -- approach him in this case. which is you don't build the case around him, build the case on documents. and he is there really just to explain things. sometimes the -- can be difficult to put the pieces together or connected the dots. use them for that purpose. but, really rely on the documents themselves to prove the case. and so, i think with that strategy, i imagine alvin bragg's prosecutors are feeling good about meeting the perception that judge engoron had of michael cohen. >> and real quickly barbara, but help us understand real quickly, what the manhattan d.a. will have to try to prove, in order to convict donald trump in the so-called hush money case. in less than 30 seconds. but, help us out here. >> i got it. so, the charges is falsification of business records. and so, he said that he was paying michael cohen legal fees. when in fact, michael cohen will testify, these weren't legal fees at all, these were payments to stormy daniels and

karen mcdougal to try to keep their stories quiet on the eve of the election. and so, the charge is these false business records. but of course, the context is the election, and trying to conceal from voters what was really happening, just as the access hollywood tape was released. >> just as we were getting going, we are out of time. this always happens in tv times, barbara. barbara mcquade, charles coleman junior, thank you both very much. and remember that you can watch charles co-host the special black men in america, the road to 2024, streaming right now on peacock. but up next, remember that highly credible fbi informant to house republicans say justified their impeachment effort against president biden? well, he's been indicted for lying about bribery and corruption involving the president and his son. democrats say game over, but republicans keep beating the drum on impeachment. congressman robert garcia of the house oversight committee joins me live, to talk about where the investigation goes next. where the investigation goes

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alexei navalny has been a brave leader, who stood up against corruption and autocracy. and he stood up for the truth, if he is in fact dead. we know that putin is responsible. and it just speaks to the most recent of many examples of the brutality of putin and his government. >> we know that putin is responsible. that was vice president kamala harris today at the munich security conference, making it clear who she and the president believe is responsible for the death of longtime putin critic, and russian opposition leader alexei navalny. this morning, navalny's team confirmed his death at a siberian prison, claiming he was, quote, murdered. in munich, vice president harris also reaffirmed the

united states's commitment to support ukraine against russia's brutal war. with a remarkable 70 votes, the senate passed new military aid for ukraine this week, but republican house speaker mike johnson is standing in the way, refusing to bring in the vital measure to the floor for a vote. in an exclusive interview with nbc's andrea mitchell, harris said it's urgent that congress act now. >> we need to do our part, and we have been very clear that the united states congress must act. this is a moment where america must have the ability to demonstrate through action where we stand on issues like this. which is, do we stand with our friends in the face of extreme brutality or not? i have to believe the united states congress is going to do the right thing. >> and joining me now, democratic congressman robert

garcia of california, a member of the house oversight committee in the homeland security committee. congressman garcia, welcome back to the saturday show. a bipartisan group of eight house lawmakers have unveiled a 66.3 billion dollar proposal to fund aid for ukraine, israel, and taiwan. the bill also includes provisions aimed at tightening border security. congressman, is this real? and does it stand a chance of moving forward? >> i mean look, i think any proposal that is moving forward right now, we should have a debate and discussion about. but what really needs to happen is the senate and national security bill that got through the senate, that is now in mike johnson's desk, needs to be brought to the floor of the u.s. house. what is happening right now in ukraine's critical to democracy. there are serious security implications here back home. and this idea that mike johnson is spending the need to vladimir putin, that all of these republicans are choosing now to turn their back on democracy and our allies, is

completely shameful. ukraine is at a moment where they need our support and help. this is about more than just ukraine, it is about democracy, and eastern europe, it's about the advancement of freedom. and it directly impacts us here back home. and so, the senate package deserves a vote in the u.s. house, and that's where our focus should be. >> well you know, the speaker i mean, the speaker is now demanding a meeting with president biden, to discuss border security and foreign aid. but it turns out he is demanding a meeting he has already had, roll the tape. >> a month, even asked to sit down with the president, to talk about the border, and talk about national security. and that meeting has not been granted. and i'm going to continue to insist on that, because there are very serious issues that need to be addressed. and if the speaker of the house candidate with the president of the united states, that's a problem. >> we had a productive meeting, i think, house and senate leaders. the president was very forthright. >> that, where it says now and

then, then was literally a month ago. so, does the speaker know what he is doing? and is this just a another naked and lame attempt to place the blame on president biden? >> the speaker has no idea what he is doing. i mean honestly, it just completely incompetent. first, let's remind ourselves, president biden actually submitted an immigration reform proposal on his first day in office. president biden has also submitted numerous requests for border enhancement security, to ensure that the guards are down, they are getting their pay, make sure that we have technology along the border to actually address the challenges we have at the border. but republicans actually want none of that. they don't want solutions. mike johnson has had plenty of meetings about the border, he has no interest in actually solving the challenges. all of the maga republicans, all they care about, including by the way, they are dear leader, donald trump, who is essentially telling them don't do anything, is they want chaos and dysfunction. they want to hurt president

biden, they don't want solutions, and they have no respect for the actual real seriousness that asylum, and its complexity, actually means along the border. >> let me get you on one more thing, congressman. on friday, the trump appointed special counsel investigating the biden family indicted his own -- alexander -- on two felony counts for lying to the fbi. this is the guy who claimed that a ukrainian company paid president biden and his son $5 million in bribes. and now -- , your reaction to this news? >> i mean, let's remember, this was the original rudy giuliani conspiracy theory, the one that he was out there selling to everybody. i mean, this is such a joke, this impeachment scam is a complete joke. jim comer, who is leading the oversight committee, keeps bringing up these fit -- and informants, who essentially ended up being either liars, or indicted, or in one case a chinese spy. i mean, they keep searching and searching for something that does not exist.

there is zero evidence, linking the president to any sort of business dealings with hunter biden. this is the latest, obviously case, in the fbi getting involved and basically indicting this possible witness, and whistleblower. it's just another example of all of the attacks that really go nowhere. so james comer should be embarrassed, he should be ashamed. our oversight committee has actual real oversight work to do. but this impeachment should be over, and they should close this horrific case immediately. >> and as we know, chairman comer has already said he is not going to do it. california congressman robert garcia, thank you so much, as always, for coming to the saturday show. and joining me now to continue this conversation, brendan buck, msnbc political analyst, former chief communications adviser to former house speaker paul ryan, and former press secretary to former house speaker john boehner. joan walsh, national affairs correspondent at the nation, and offer of corporate bs.

you get me in trouble every time you come on, exposing the lies and half troops that protect profit, power, and wealth in america. and -- msnbc political analyst, pollster, and democratic strategist. thank you all for coming to the show. so, let's go round robin, starting with you brenda. and andrea mitchell asked vice president harris if putin might have felt emboldened by donald trump's remarks, in which he encouraged russia to do, quote, whatever the -- they want to any nato country. here's what the vice president said. >> i mean, the idea that the former president of the united states would say that he, quote, encourages, encourages a brutal dictator, to invade our allies. and that the united states of america would stand by, and watch. no previous united states president, regardless of their

party, has bowed down to a russian dictator before. it >> brendan? >> yeah look, donald trump has been pretty clear about his position on nato for a long time, right, that he doesn't see the value in it, or doesn't believe that those countries are holding up their end of the bargain. the issue is that the threat to discarding nato is clearly much more acute now than when he was president before. obviously this is not a theoretical exercise of what happens when people don't back their allies. ukraine, not a nato member of course. but, there are people looking to see what we do here. and that could have significant downstream consequences for global security. and there is a position in the republican party right now, that is just simply not our problem, we don't need to worry about that. and i think it's really dangerous, and i think frankly that the democrats are right to call him out on. it >> joan, you are sitting here with me, your reaction? >> it's outrageous. i've never seen anything like it before, none of us have,

jonathan. it really is a kind of traitor hood, honestly. and what's so saddening to me, is seeing how few republicans have pushed back on him. you have somebody like senator lindsey graham, who used to be a hawk, who used to be so pro ukrainian aid, who used to be a staple of that in munich security conference, always went, held court their, didn't show up this past few days. went to the border instead. they are all taking their marching orders from donald trump. donald trump is the speaker of the house right now, you know. he said no border bill, it will help biden, so a very conservative border compromised, by the way, gets scotch. no ukraine aid, no aid to israel. mike johnson goes along with it, lindsey graham has not gone along with it. it is really corrupt and rotten. >> cornell, i'm wondering. i mean, for us nerds on this,

in these four boxes, we get what trump's nato remarks mean, the power that they hold. but will they resonate with the american people? the president in the campaign, half an ad out hammering away at trump on this. but will it matter to voters? >> well, that's the million dollar question. i think in politics, all you want to do from a campaign standpoint is, do you have a story to tell, and can move voters to that story? i think it is problematic for republicans in a couple of different ways. because historically as you've all pointed out the republicans have been the party, the hawkish party, and the party of strength and showing strength. across the globe. and a lot of middle america like that. like, a lot of middle america bought into that, and gravitated toward the republican party and that strength. i think the republican party brain right now, is that's -- doesn't give democrats an

opportunity to lean into what so many of middle americans once upon a time like about the republican party. and more so, along the campaign trail. as john has talked about here, you are going to have senators have to answer to reporters every day, about these conversations. so for me, it's not only the presidential. but you also have the senate and the house at stake here. and i've got to tell you, a lot of those house republicans sitting in battleground districts don't want to have to answer this every day. >> all right, don't go anywhere. any of you folks on the screen, or any of you at home, please stick around. because ahead, how yesterday is costly fraud ruling when packed on from, and why one of my guest compares it to a, quote, death penalty for his new york businesses. and later, queen beto's country. how her fans are embracing her new music, but can some country music stations are not. you don't want to miss that discussion. keep it right here. that discussion. keep it right here. medicare for more people managing

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this election is about who shares your values. elet me share mine. i'm the only candidate with a record of taking on maga republicans, and winning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values. democrats agree. conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice.

mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message.

back with me, my political panel. msnbc political analyst brendan buck, and cornell belcher, and joan walsh, national affairs correspondent at the nation. you know, we were just talking before the commercial break -- so much has happened this week that we are not even able to get to. the me orcas impeachment was this, week the -- when, on long island happen this week. manchin said he's not running for president. oh, and a shutdown is coming up on march 1st. but joan, i digress. [laughter] >> you wrote a column for, a column on the new york fraud decision that came out, was that yesterday? >> i believe it was yesterday. yeah >>, yesterday where you point out that although trump is most likely going to be the republican presidential nominee, and is leading in the polls, you will quote, still believe better about the american people. explain your optimism? i mean, i share it, but i'd like to hear your version of the optimism. >> i think we get really,

really bogged down in analyzing the degradations of the trump magra core, you know. but they are not a majority of the country, they are maybe 30%, which is 30% too much, which is scary and terrible. but, i choose to believe that there are a lot of people looking at all of this. whether it is the 91 felony counts, or now this 458 million dollar settlement that he is going to have to pay, the e. jean carroll verdicts, including basically liable for rape. and, people don't like it. i know that his base likes, it i know that porn nikki haley is still getting her butt kicked in her home state of south carolina. i don't think that is going to be pretty sick saturday for her. but the rest of the country i think is recoiling. and with this man unable to run a business for three years that takes up till he's joe biden's age, and he's obviously -- and

he's out of business he's really sidelined. and i think that's going to take a terrible psychological toll, and a financial toll. he is not getting out of. this >> and i think that's, why of all the cases, that is the one courtroom he showed up every time. so, brandon the new york times reports that donald trump told his advisers and allies that he likes the idea of a 16-week national abortion. dan what is this about? why is this coming out now? especially when we have seen, to use jones words, republicans getting their butts kicked, when it comes to the issue of abortion? >> yeah, i actually had the same thought, my initial thought was i'm surprised he is even talking about this. internally, we know donald trump is not really one for policy details. and the fact that he is sitting there trying to sort of how many weeks -- was interesting. on the other hand, he knows as well as anybody, this issue is his biggest political liability, and he probably knows he needs to figure out what he needs to do about it. he has been trying to distance himself from the supreme court,

that he has a big hand in shaping. i don't know that that is really going to work for him. so clearly, this is on his mind, as it should be. because if joe biden is worth his salt as a politician these days, he is going to be able to press this issue hard. and no republican that i've seen has been able to figure out a very good answer how to respond to. it >> so cornell, talk about it. i mean, is the fact that donald from talk about a 16-week abortion ban good news for democrats? >> you know, i want to step back for a moment. and maybe, maybe just maybe donald trump is a horrible candidate for president. maybe, just maybe, he is a horrible candidate for president. he has all of these indictments, he talks about things he shouldn't talk about. he rambles on a lot of times. and, and so, he's got to be able to -- look, we always seem to forget that biden actually

won. he won by a sizeable percentage point nationally, and donald trump is at a 46 47% pace, of which -- the question is, does all of this bring more voters to him? it's hard to see how all of this makes more voters move towards him, then recoil from him. so in the end, we talk a lot about donald trump and how -- donald trump's, and how bad biden's. but look, by any objective measure, donald trump is not a very good candidate, because he has so many vulnerabilities. he has so many negatives, that the biden campaign can attack, and pull voters away from him. >> okay, i just want to state for the record, i have never said for one minute how great donald trump's, and how. >> or how. that >> or how that president biden is. just for the record, please, nobody come for me. [laughter] but in the time that we have left, i want to talk about something else that trump aides and allies are floating.

and that is the idea of giving him the official republican response to president biden's mark -- state of the union address. brendan, should he do it? >> look, i don't know whether he should or shouldn't. i've been involved in taking a lot of the people who are going to be the gop responder. and usually, the theme is the future of the party, who is the fresh face that we want to put out and say this is who we are going to associate with? i guess it makes sense. i mean, he really is who the party is at this point. usually, the people who do that it never works out very well for him, so i don't know why he would want to do that. but it makes perfect sense right now to float out there for. it >> cornell, i saw you doing the praying hands. real fast, i mean real fast. >> every democrat would love for him to be the face of the party. and again, every republican in a battleground congressional district, and every republican in a tight senate district absolutely -- like we saw in

the last midterm election, where republican votes were supposed to have a red wave, and they did not, largely because it was all about donald trump. >> joan? >> agreed, he is the future of the party, he is the face of the party, he should do it, and we will all enjoy it. >> joan walsh, brendan buck, cornell belcher, thank you all very much for coming to the saturday show. and a programming note, for next saturday, be sure to tune in at four pm eastern, when jen psaki and i will host a special coverage of the republican south carolina presidential primary. and then at 6:30 pm eastern, watched rachel maddow breakdown results, along with steve kornacki at the big board, for more special coverage. that's next saturday, right here on msnbc. but up next, examining our country's gun violence crisis, in the wake of another mass shooting, this time at the recent super bowl parade. dr. jonathan metzl joins me in studio, after the break, to discuss his timely nubuck. brea discuss his timely nubuck. that goes places a regular mop just can't. ♪♪ mop smarter

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the 48th mass shooting to occur just this year. according to the gun violence archive. joining me now, dr. jonathan metzl, director of the center for medicine, health, and society at vanderbilt university, and author of the new book, what we have become, living and dying in a country of arms. doctor metzl as always, thank you very much for coming to the show. you argue in your book that, quote, and i'm going to read this long quote. mass shootings push americans into different corners, with different notions of morality. when a far better response would be to renew a basic social contract of american civic life, in which people are asked to give up and willingly cede, particular individual freedoms, in exchange for communal health, security, and immunity. what do you propose we do? >> well, the book tells the story of a mass shooting that happened in nashville in 2018, the national waffle house mass shooting. and part of the reason i wrote that it was it was a very familiar story about a horrific, and in this case, a

racially charged mass shooting. and then in the aftermath, we went into all of these different camps, right. there were people like me who were for gun control, other people were like, we need all of this stuff. and people rushed out and bought guns, and all of these things. and so, i'm trying to look at first, how did we get here? how do we get to the point where we've polarized life and death in such a deep and profound way? and then, i tell the whole story of the shooting. i tell the story of other mass shootings. and i argue in part that it is about the things that we know, our attitudes, our politics. but it is also the structural algorithms that kind of push us into these different camps. social media is one, but i've many many others. we really don't have a world right now where we see the benefits of cooperating with each other, and really, we've monetized these disparate positions. and so, part of the story i've told is, how can we re-invest in the public sphere? that's kind of where i end up in this, that we can in a way not argue so much about the things we argue about, but

really invest in the common good, in ways that i think are mutually beneficial. >> help me, because as you were talking and remembering, you wrote a piece for time magazine. also, based on your book. and, one of the things you argued, and correct me if i'm wrong. our whole focus on gun violence from a health lens, it is not the right way to look at this. there is another, less polarizing way to look at this. did i read that right? >> well, it's less and more polarizing. any, one of i think the more controversial arguments of the book, and again, i'm telling the story and reading it through this case. part of the story i realized was people like me russian after mass shootings, and i say we need background checks, we need red flag laws. we -- i wish we lived in a country, but i interviewed hundreds of gun owners for this book. and i started to understand first of all, what's that message sounds like from their perspective. and so, for a lot of people i interviewed, their main reason for owning a gun was mistrust of the government, or the government was going to take. i don't share those views, but

at least i could see their perspective. and then people like me would russian and say, you know, we need background checks, which is a government database. we need red flag laws, which empower police to come into your house. and so, part of the story they were telling me is i have my gun against the government in the first place. so you are telling me that it is common sense to sign up for these government databases. and actually, i heard this not just from conservative white gun owners, but also from, as i talk about in the book, a number of black owners who weren't thrilled about, for example, inviting the cops into their house to do a background check on, and welfare check on their relatives. >> so i've got it wrong. so it's not the health focus, it's the illegal, legislative focus that is polarizing? >> well, part of it. i mean again, i think when you see gun laws work, in places where people believe in laws and public health. but what i began to see in my work was that that logic didn't

make sense, across a lot of red state america. that we were kind of taking something that made sense in new york, in boston, and los angeles and saying well gosh, a red state people should do just like we did with cigarettes and seatbelts. and i really try to interrogate, why didn't that? work why do we have mass shootings, and he will run out and buy more guns? what is going on here? and really for me, it led to release some conclusions that, for me at least, upended much of what i thought i knew about gun violence in america, and the best ways to address it. >> well, if anyone who has read your previous book, dying of whiteness, they will recognize that maybe this was an outgrowth, perhaps of that. because you wrote, you focused on three states, one was missouri, and missouri's lax gun laws, and what those lax gun laws did to missouri. real quickly, talk about that. >> well, i am from missouri, a group in kansas city, my brothers and my dad were at the super bowl. and, so kansas city is kind of home. and i know from, this and from my own research, that missouri

had these pretty reasonable gun laws. i mean, there is a long history of gun ownership, of hunting, of people caring about the second amendment. but until about 2008, believe it or not, people would go to get a permit at the sheriff's office. i interviewed people in my research, i talked about three seconds to get that. nobody cared. and then they started overturning all of the gun laws, overturning everything, guns in parks, guns in bars. -- in 2021, made it almost a crime to even have cities mandate their own gun laws. or enact federal laws. and what i saw was not just a rise in all kinds of gun injury and death, gun suicide, gun homicide, all these things went up. but the bigger issue for me was that it was the end of a kind of particular public space, that people stopped congregating in places like -- this park in the middle of the town, and the public pools, because everybody was so worried that they would get shot. in so, there was injury and

death, but it was also the end, i mean for me in missouri, there was a super bowl parade pre-match every day. it just never got on the news, but it wasn't weird to go -- in a public space with people who are different than you. and that's what these gun, these loose gun last killed, was the sense of camaraderie and civic engagement. >> the name of the book is what we've become, living and dying in a country of arms. i wish we had more time to talk about this, we barely scratched the surface. dr. jonathan metzl, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. >> thanks so much. >> and coming up, coming up, beyonci's new singles reunite an ongoing debate about diversity in country music. we will dive into all of that with author and music executive -- there she is, danielle smith, after the break. is, da smith, after the break. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great.

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would, quote, breaking the internet, and it did just that. but some country radio stations refused to play the songs at first, sparking a larger conversation about the origins of the genre. and if anyone can reclaim country music roots of black culture, it would be beyonci, and her -- . joining me now, danielle smith, author of shine bright, a very personal history of black women in pop. i like the fact that something always happens in pop music, and it gives me an excuse to bring you back on the show, danielle, thank you very much for being here. so as you well know, beyonci is definitely not the first black artist in the country music industry. how is she paying homage to early black country artists like charlie pride, who my mother listen to a lot. she had her charlie pride face. and the pointer sisters? >> i mean without question, there's charlie pride, there is the pointer sisters. but also i think that beyonci is now putting herself in a leadership role for just the

reclamation of black country music. i mean, if you just look back in recent history, we had little not sex with old town road. we've seen -- obese rocking, a cowboy hat. i mean tracey chapman just sort of reclaiming acoustic guitar, for black folk in country at the grammys. with -- it's a moment. >> and also we should add ray charles saying country, as well. so >> oh my god, can we talk about ray charles singing georgia on my mind! >> right. >> it's one of the most incredible recordings in the history of music. so the idea that black people don't have a place in country, is just, it's just not smart. and that argument is not being made by serious. people >> right, so then perfectly it dovetails into the question. i want to ask you, why is there such resistance to beyonci's

country music? >> you know, unfortunately, country music has maintained this bubble of whiteness. so many in country music believe the music itself to be white. the audience to be white, the radio stations to be white, the award show to be white. not all country fans, not all country musicians, but a lot of them. even when i think back to when the pointer sisters went to the grand ole operating fairytale, a country song that they won a grammy four, they were greeted by shelves and signs of like, keep country country. and it's like, no, we are here. >> you know, real quickly in the 30 seconds that we have left, danielle. so beyond say, she's doing this three volume project, this is act to. country music's act to, house music was act one.

what do you think act three will tackle? >> i want broadway. >> oh. >> i want broadway. i want all the broadway standards, maybe, jazz standards thrown in there a little bit. because it can also be jazz, it could be jazz. there are so many directions she can go, and i think that we should all take this moment and just be excited for beyonci, and her fans about country. but excited period, about the genius work, and the reclamation work that beyonci -- is doing. >> genius. danielle smith, as always, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. and that will do it for me today. tune into the sunday show, when new jersey congressman andree -- joins us to discuss house republicans dysfunction, despite their growing to do list. that's tomorrow at six pm eastern, right here on msnbc. plus, fashion designer be michael joins me live in studio to discuss his new memoir on his friend and inspiration, the

late oscar winning actress sicily tyson, a jam-packed show that you don't want to miss. and remember to follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, threads, using the handle at weekend k part. ayman voiding is up next, he will be joined by congressman jamie raskin. reacting to the star witness in the biden impeachment inquiry, being arrested. for lying to the fbi. keep it here, on msnbc. the fb keep it here, on msnbc. for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema—fast. some rinvoq patients felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days. some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks. and many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin.

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