president. it was the first time a used the phrase putin is evil. i remember, i was berated about that, for being crazy. i stand by that claim. but i also asked, why hasn't mr. trump spoke out back then? he was president. and i am shocked that he has not -- i applaud his vice president, former vice president pence did. many of republicans. have i am shocked that a leading nominee, the presumed nominee of one of the major parties of the greatest democracy in the world is solid on a delicate. i hope mr. trump will reconsider that silence. >> one more for you. do you think we'll ever find out the truth of how he died? >> no. no. because it is putin's russia. tragically, i've had other friends that have been killed by this regime. i think -- 2015 and four years

and years and years there was an alleged investigation into that. i suspect the same will be here. but i want to say it again. it doesn't matter exactly how he was killed. putin arrested him. he tried to kill him before he arrested him. he put him in horrific gulag- like circumstances. listen to it from yulia last night, the way the incredibly all full, sadistic circumstances under which he endured to live, that's what putin did. so what the last straw was, i don't know, but i know for sure putin killed those courageous man. >> michael mcfaul, our condolences to you and andy to everybody who cares about democracy. this is a tragedy. that is our show for tonight. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good avening to you on this friday, lawrence. >> good to see you again,. alex on thursday, donald trump thinks he's the one who's suffering. and he couldn't breathe a word about alexei navalny.

>> it is just staggering. this as a person that might be the republican nominee for president, saying nothing. >> alex, in the hearing in georgia today, fani willis's father was a star witness. we are going to bring you the audio, some of that video. really extraordinary testimony from an extraordinary man. i knew not office history and i was just amazed what we learned about him on the witness stand. >> hayes and extort terrific rope. an american life, really. >> thank, you alex. >> have a good show. the second day of the hearing in fulton county, every day of donald trump's life has been worse than the day before. today, it is 400 and $64 million or earth than yesterday for don crump and his children. there was no suspense, really, in today's judicial finding in the civil fraud case brought

against donald trump by new york attorney general letitia guy drains. jury verdicts are always a suspenseful. you never know what juries are thinking, but it was always very clear or the fact finder in this case, judge arthur engoron, was thinking. it was very clear what any reasonable person would think when confronted with the evidence in this case. in his ruling today, which cost donald trump and his children 463 point $9 million, including interest, judge engoron wrote, in order to borrow more and have lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants resulting in fraudulent financial statements. when confronted at trial with the statements, defendants, fact, and expert witnesses denied reality and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls deterrent future recurrences.

that is the essence of the case. so, as of tonight, because of donald trump's stupidity and recklessness as a businessman, and because of donald trump's utter depravity in raping e. jean carroll in the 1990s, donald trump owes a total of 500 and $51 million in legally enforceable judgments against him in the state of new york. the interest is taking on that total amount every day that it remains unpaid. that means the interest on what donald trump owes in this case, one by attorney general letitia james, and in the two cases, one by e. jean carroll, is increasing at a rate of $1 million per week. that is the interest rate now that is running on what donald trump owes in all of these

cases. $1 million a week. to appeal those cases in the state of new york donald trump has to literally put up or shut up. he has to put up the money in question in order to appeal the new york cases. so donald trump has exactly 22 days left before he must deposit the $83 million that he owes e. jean carroll in an account controlled by the court so that he can appeal that case. if he loses that appeal, that $83 million immediately goes up the e. jean carroll. she won't have to chase donald trump for the money. donald trump is already deposited the $5 million in an account controlled by the court, while he is appealing the first verdict against e. jean carroll, that e. jean carroll won in court. donald trump has 30 days to deposit 400 and $63 million in an account controlled by the court so that he can appeal this business fraud case.

tonight, donald trump needs a two billion dollar surge of saudi money that his son-in- law, jared kushner, got from the saudis after the trump presidency. if foreign sources money like that don't bail out donald trump it is unlikely that the trump businesses will experience a surge of income that is able to absorb the half a billion dollars in legal judgments that don't trump now faces with hundreds of millions of dollars in legal judgments likely to land on him in the lawsuits pending against him in washington d.c. filed by police officers for the injuries that they suffered at the hands of the violent trump mob on january 6th. donald trump will be barred from running businesses in the state of new york for three years, his two daughters children, donald trump junior and eric trump, will be barred from running businesses in new york for two years. after crushing the trump boys and their business in court

today, new york attorney general letitia james said this. >> i want to be clear. white-collar financial fraud is not a victimless crime. when the powerful break the law and take more than their fair share there are fewer resources available for working people, small businesses and families. and every day americans cannot lie to a bank about how much money they have in order to get a mortgage to buy a home or a loan to keep their business afloat or to send their child to college. and, if they did, our government would throw the book at them. i want to thank the entire incredible and hard working team in my office that tried this case. because the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering, so too is his ego.

and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for lying, cheating, and a lack of contrition, and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by because there cannot be different rules for different people in this country and former presidents are no exception. this decision is a massive victory for every american who believes in that simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy that the rule of law applies to all of us equally, fairly, and justly. thank you. >> we are going to go inside to donald trump's businesses with our experts tonight. tim o'brien, senior executive editor for bloomberg opinion and author of trump nation.

he is an msnbc political analyst. david cay johnston, a pulitzer prize-winning reporter, is the author of the big heat, how donald trump's least america enriched himself and his family. faith gay, who served as a supervisor in the special prosecutors and civil rights unit of the eastern district of new york. and, suzanne craig, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter for the new york times. suzanne, you reminded me -- i left out of this well over 500 million dollar burden that donald trump is facing, he owes you some money, doesn't he? >> i almost forgot about it in all the hubbub today. but he owes the new york times legal fees for suing us over a story that ran in 2018 that won the pulitzer prize. our portion of the lawsuit was tossed out and he's been ordered to pay our legal fees and we're still waiting. >> which runs about $400,000? >> 400,000. >> and he hasn't paid. i don't get it? >> he's got other appeal it, put the money up --

>> so are you worried about the new york times and getting its $400,000 now that there is more than half a billion in front of him that they're trying to collect? >> there is a lot narrow, it's incredible. >> what does donald trump have to do to get the money he needs just to mop the appeal? >> we don't know quite yet because we don't know exactly how much cash she has on hand. that is a snapshot of any divot given day of how many could have. he claims he has $400 million, that was last year. he could have more, now you could have left now. but we do know that, during his presidency, it wasn't as talked about, but there was a lot of asset sales that happened as he entered the white house he was in a precarious situation with his cash. 2015 happened when he announced he was running for president, he made very disparaging remarks against mexicans, and a lot of licensing deals left. they all abandoned ship, and those were a real cash cow for

him. they were one-time payments that disappeared and he also lost the apprentice franchise, and they see walked away with them. he enters the white house, he has a meeting with allen weisselberg, is accountant, and there is difficulty with the cash. there is not that much, last but we do know that, since then, he has sold the operating agreements that he had on the old post office hotel in washington. he also sold the operating license for a golf course that he had in new york. he has also sold -- it's gotten less publicity, but condos that he hold in new york, a mansion in beverly hills, i can keep going down the list. he's been raising cash, by the same time we don't know how much money she's having to plug into his many money losing businesses just to keep them going. so it's a hard thing, but we do know that he has been quietly building up the cash -- you made this decision high, either

deposit or put up a money so that he could appeal on top of the e. jean carroll decision. these are massive amounts of money for him. i think we're looking at, it's going to be interesting to see what happens. i don't know and i think we're probably gonna have a situation where he's going to have to put up a bond, how he's even going to get that given all of the trouble that he is in now is anybody's guess. >> no one's going to give that bond. let's listen, this is 30 seconds of donald trump under oath. but dulles knew this, it has to be true because it's under oath, and it's donald trump telling us how much cash he has on hand right now. we will evaluate the credibility of this, but as i say, it is under oath so it has to be true. let's listen. >> i don't need the money, you probably see the cash. we have a lot of cash. i believe we have substantially in excess of 400 million cash, which is a lot for a developer. developers usually don't have cash, they have assets, not

cash. but we have, i believe 400 plus and going up very substantially. every month. my biggest expense is probably legal fees, but fortunately that is okay. we have a lot of cash, we have great assets. and we have a very valuable company. >> okay, we know he's lying about the legal fees because he makes his contributors pay for that. but, tim o'brien, he is under oath so it's got to be true, right? >> you've got to believe him, lawrence. i sort of relish the idea of susan bragg and the new york times filing a -- against trump tower, to make sure they get paid at the end of the day. my colleagues at bloomberg news estimate that he has around 600 million. if it's 400 million, if it's three, if it's seven, the reality is the size of these judgments, cumulatively, are going to blow a giant hole in

his wallet. i don't think he has liquid assets, which would be cash, securities, other things that he could raise money by selling quickly, i don't think that will meet most of his media needs around these penalties. as sue said, you don't know. he's a privately held enterprise so we have to rely on his own public statements. but, it is likely that he may have to sell some of his heart assets and most of his wealth is tied up in a handful of urban skyscrapers and some golf courses. the urban skyscrapers have been stressed because of covid. people have been fleeing city centers, and other real estate buyers know trump is under duress. so he may have to sell those things at fire sale prices. it's a horrible situation for him to be in financially. then there is the added, i think, psychological and reputational wound of being put into exile from new york for

three years. and trump talks a lot about his legacy, you know, he likes to compare himself to other famous families. the trumps aren't the roosevelts or the kennedys or the vanderbilts or the rockefellers, they are a dime store version of that, but he pays a lot of attention to that. and i think that there is no way that this ruling also doesn't just strike a blow to his sense of himself as a new yorker, for as much as he dumps on the city, he's always considered himself a new yorker. the donald trump that we saw rise up in the 19 80s through the 90s and thereafter was initially a creation of his father's wealth. his father, frauds, wealth. and trump has just gone around with a sledgehammer and taken it to the foundations of the family's business and his own business in the pursuit of whatever he wants to do. and now people are asking for receipts and he's not been in

this position before. but this myth that donald trump's escaped the long arm of the law forever and ever, he's never been subjected to the kind of prosecutorial talent and a seal that is confronting him right now. and then the antics that he engaged in the court that pleads his political base, but obviously judges who are hearing those cases and they've come after him with as much of force as they could. i was surprised that engoron laid a financial penalty autumn of the size. i thought he was going to exile and -- from new york, go with a lighter financial penalty, and i think it is a low reflection of how tired the courts are of what he is trying to do as he abuses the rule of law. >> face gate, what does the appeals process look like for donald trump and what does he have to do to comply with it? obviously he has to put up, in new york you have to put up the money to run an appeal. it's a pretty big burden.

>> yeah, you have to put a bond, usually about 100 20% of your judgment is. so we are talking huge amounts of money here, lawrence. more than half a billion. i would say this judgment is a pretty appeal proof. you'll have a shot at the intermediate court of appeals, then there's a discretionary shot at the states highest court, the court of appeals. but, judge engoron really went out of his way to support this judgment and it is a simple case. in new york he loses the right to do business in the world's financial capital, new york city. if you engage in a persistent pattern of dishonesty. that's what happens here. when you do that, and if the judge finds out, two things happen. it gives the back the money that you've of tamed -- and your barred from doing business. here the judge put in, what are really mainstream penalties. he enhanced judge jones, who is the monitor of -- powers.

donald trump can no longer, through his companies, run them, he can't issue fraudulent financial statements, the judge who is the monitor will track them first. he put in, the judge put in a mandatory compliance officer and he gave a pretty modest penalty, as with pointed out here, of three years barring business for donald trump in new york, and two business of for his sons. those are proportionate penalties. i think, given the massive findings of fact and credibility, determination, that the judge made, this is going to be a very difficult decision for trump to attack. >> david, does this mean now that there are, in effect, or supervisors of the trump business overseeing the whole thing, does this mean that we're going to get a new financial picture of what the trump businesses actually are? >> yes. the independent director, who will effectively run the company because it will control

large movements of money, and require pre approval of any larger transaction. they can pay salaries -- but because well under the supervision of judge jones, they did all sorts of improper money movements, they have to now get pre approval. there will have to be accountings through the court about all of those. and that is going to very much hamper domes style. he did get one nice thing, courtesy of governor kathy hochul and the state legislature. the 9% annual rate set by state law for civil judgments was reduced this year for 2% going forward. >> all right, our panel is going to stay right with us. please, stay with, us there's much more on this case and what happened in georgia today when fani willis's father took the witness stand. you're going to want to see that, we'll be right back. see that, we'll be right back. ...which if ignored could bring you here...

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i don't need anybody's money, it's nice. i don't need anybody's money. i'm using my own money, i'm not using the lobbyists, i'm not using donors, i don't care. i'm really rich. >> turns out that was a lie. we're about to find out if donald trump is rich enough to handle what is now over half a billion dollars in legal judgments against him just this month in new york state. the new york attorney general's case against donald trump him today and a judgment of $464 million against him and his children. and here is how and where it began. >> i want to ask a little bit about your conversation with my colleague from missouri about asset inflation. to your knowledge, that the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company. >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did? this >> allen weisselberg, ron liebermann, and matthew calamari. >> and we are what the

committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his text returns in order to compare them? >> yes, and could find it at the trump org. >> our trump business experts are back. tim o'brien, david cay johnston, faith gay, and susanne craig. well, here we are. >> here we are. it's incredible, that's one of where it started. >> with michael cohen as the person who did the k turning over of the courage to get this. >> yes, and since then it's been an unraveling. really spectacular. we worked on a story that ran in 2008 and look at some of these things and the games they were playing, evaluations go all the way back to his father. that's where it started. then to see it all the way for today, it's remarkable. >> tim o'brien, it is an

indication, by the way, it's one of the reasons why i thought donald trump would never run for president. because the level of scrutiny that is possible, and that is likely to occur into his private life and his business life, is something he couldn't survive. as susanne just mentioned, he survived a 2008 look by that new york times at this kind of thing. but when alexandria ocasio- cortez does that kind of thing continue with michael cohen, and that new york attorney general is watching, up in new york, watching that, that's it. you have unlocked a door and there are very powerful forces who will investigate at that. point >> win pay your loris, and don't leave the rollers out to dry. when your lawyers have had a look at some of your deals with banks, and your books, and the deals you are connecting inside your office on fifth avenue. and that's another thing. trump historically has sniffed

his attorneys without suffering some of the blow back from that other people would. he went through decades of journalists coleman through his finances. writing approximations of letitia james's argument decades before. and he kept skating along. and it is because of this hubris. i think hey decided he had run for president before, too, but obviously hit never won. the scrutiny was intensified but it wasn't until he began randomly breaking the law, that he got turned up. and as we talked about before, he's simply in a position he's never been used to. he's trying to pull every last truck out of the. back he's appealing the court of public opinion because he's getting brutalized so badly in courts of law. >> faith gay, what is the best legal advice to donald trump

right now on this pegula case? is there any reason not to appeal the case? >> absolutely not. as i've said, i think that judgment is pretty appeal proof. there is so many witnesses. it's not just michael cohen, the judge went out of his way to say cohen's testimony was important but it was corroborated by many others and many documents. but i think what we are doing right now, what hay should be doing is engaging in delight. he has an absolute right of appeal. he can go back in court and try to push monterrey's and compliance offer his duties, trying to make them smaller. he can quibble about that in a way that may cause delight. and he can push the court -- pushes appeal to the highest court in the state. so i think, just like with all these trials, his game's delight. he doesn't want a judgment and once he gets it he drags out to the full state of the. law and i will say, new york will give him due process like that gets every person from the

low was to the highest. he will get the chance to appeal once and maybe try to appeal again. >> david cay johnston, you have been studying donald trump's business for a long time. you have had some opportunities to talk to him about in the. past how is he feeling tonight? >> donald will go to his grave insisting that i have a perfect company, i did everything right. but he knows internally that they got him. and he doesn't have any mechanism to cope with it. at trial, he didn't have to be held responsible for anything. so as the judge said, he has a near pathological need. here to donald, a life that would trouble you and me, i don't mean telling your four- year-old nurse a santa claus, is like a consequence.

it doesn't matter just as long as you get the money. certainly, he's got the pay out of money. >> david cay johnston, tim o'brien, susanne craig, faith gay, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. thank you. coming up, in georgia today, we did not say fulton county district attorney fani willis return to the witness stand. but her father, john floyd, a retired attorney took to the witness stand to defend his delivery. and that is the testimony you really need to see. he was the star witness today. that's next. today. that's next. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. (♪♪)

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...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. this election is about who shares your values. let me share mine. i'm the only candidate with a record of taking on maga republicans, and winning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values.

the second day of the hearing in fulton county georgia about the trump codefendants motion to disqualify district attorney fani willis from the case began, as andrew weissmann predicted it would begin. because fani willis's lawyer decided not to ask her any more questions that meant that the trump team of lawyers did not get another chance to ask questions of fani willis and so she gave no more testimony today. andrew weissmann predicted that would happen because it appeared, from the fani willis side of the case yesterday, that she had established everything she needed to establish in that testimony yesterday and there is no reason to continue it. then, fani willis's lawyer called to witnesses in support of her testimony. the first witness was the former governor of georgia, roy

burns, who was a highly experienced, is a highly experienced trial lawyer. he impressed everyone in the courtroom on both sides. he testified that fani willis offered him the job of special prosecutor in charge of the case against donald trump and his codefendants. his testimony refuted the trump team lawyers claim that fani willis hired her boyfriend, nathan wade, for the job of a special prosecutor so that she could then go on vacation trips with nathan wade and profits fit from his spending through the patient like she was giving him. that's the trump team's lawyer theory of the case. now that the testimony in the hearing is over, we can say that there was absolutely no evidence presented at all that fani willis intended to profit from nathan wade's position, or that she incidentally profited from that position in any way. zero evidence for the fundamental reason that this hearing was held.

fani willis, and nathan wade, both testified that their romantic relationship began after nathan wade began working in the district attorney's office. he was former governor barnes testimony about why he didn't want the job of a special prosecutor that eventually went to nathan wade. he didn't want to be the special prosecutor of the man who tried to overturn the presidential election in georgia and sent a violent mob to attack the capitol on january six. >> i live with bodyguards for four years and i didn't like it. now i'm going to live with bodyguards for the rest of my life. >> so the terrorism of donald trump and his mobs worked in that particular instance. there was shocking testimony, in the late afternoon today, when terrence bradley, who is nathan wade's law partner and was the first lawyer involved in handling nathan wade's divorce, took to the witness

stand and testified that he did have communication with the trump team lawyer who filed this motion against fani willis. but that wasn't the shocking part. shocking part came on cross examination by fani willis's lawyer who revealed why terrence bradley might have been in contact with one of the trump team lawyers. >> you left -- the same from other employees. the main partners of the turf firm, you are the one who left, right? >> that's correct. >> you heard it as a disagreement -- due to a disagreement, yes? >> a disagreement was that there is an allegation of -- made against two, right? >> that's incorrect. >> there's not an allegation

that you sexually assaulted employees in the firm? >> that is incorrect but guess. >> there is an allegation that he sexually assaulted a member of the firm, correct? >> there is an allegation, correct. >> did you sexually assault any clients of your firm? >> no. >> never? >> never. >> who is anna rodriguez? >> i don't even know that name. >> you don't recall a client named ana rodriguez? >> and rodriguez, no i do not. >> never matter? >> i do not recall the name and rodriguez. >> the next witness is ana rodriguez. questioning mr. broadly about the sexual assault of -- a client of the firm. >> the judge did not allow that testimony by ana rodriguez,

saying it was too far afield from the point in the essence of the hearing. the most impressive witness of the day was the man who helped make fani willis who she is, her father jon clifford for the third. he is a retired attorney who practiced law in washington, d.c., and around the world, including working in south africa with nelson mandela and talking for four years in rwanda. fani willis's father testified that he moved in with her in the summer of 2019 when fani willis had a boyfriend who was a dj who is frequently at her house. that conflicts with the trump team lawyers claim that fani willis began dating nathan wade in 2019. fani willis's father said he never once sought nathan wade at their home and never met him until this year. mr. floyd explained why his daughter had to move out of the

house. >> there had been so many death threats and they said they were going to blow up the house, they were going to kill her, they were going to kill me, they were going to kill my grandchildren, i mean, on, and on, and on. i was concerned for her safety. >> the people who are threatening to kill him and his daughter and his grandchildren are the supporters of the clients of lawyers who are all facing him in that room today, some of them questioning him. when lawyer representing donald trump questioned fani willis's father even-handed questioning, her father handled the questioning, as gracefully and professionally as former governor barnes did. there isn't even a hint of anything about professional respect that attorney john clifford floyd iii showed it to his attorney, the lawyer to donald trump, the man who called his daughter a racist, the man who is never, ever told his supporters not to threaten

her life and not to threaten her father's life and not to threaten her children's lives. because of security precautions now in place, fani willis's father doesn't get to see her very much anymore. >> i've only seen my daughter 13 times because i can't, and we've never seen each other for more than maybe three hours, because of the nightmare threats against her and me. >> yesterday, fani willis testified that her father always advised her to make sure that she always had enough cash on hand to deal with whatever surprise might come her way. >> your owner, i'm not trying to be racist, okay. but it is a black thing. i was a trained, and most black folks, they had cash, they keep cash, and -- i was trained, you always keep some cash because

i've been places, just because of the color of my skin, for example, i took a fellowship at harvard when my daughter was just, if i might, your honor, when i was just, she was just three years old. i remember going to a restaurant in cambridge, massachusetts, and i had an american express credit card and a visa, or whatever. and i had a lot of, what they call travelers checks, i don't even know if they still have travelers checks, but travelers checks. there is a sign that said -- for whatever reason the man would not take my american express credit card. so i pulled out my visa card, and he wouldn't take my visa card. so then i pulled out my travelers checks, he said we don't take a checks. this was money. i had a ten dollar bill, i never forget this as long as i live, and he said the bill for

my wife at the time, fani's mother, fani, and myself, was $9.95. i had a ten dollar bill. i'll always remember that. but even before that, i've always kept cash. i've told my daughter, you keep six months worth of cash always. for example, i had three saves in my house. i put to some of my clients stuff there, too. things i didn't want other lawyers -- you are always an affirm and i knew there was special conditions. so some of my clients things i would bring home, put them in the safe. but i was always kept safe's. as a matter of fact i gave my daughter her first cash box and told are always keep some cash. >> joining us now from atlanta are katie phang, an attorney and host of the katie phang show saturdays at noon eastern on msnbc, and msnbc legal

analyst melissa redmon, she's a form of fulton county georgia deputy district attorney and a professor at the university of georgia school of law. melissa, let me begin with you on what we just heard from jon floyd, fani willis's father. how do you think the judge received that testimony? >> i think mr. floyd came across as incredibly credible. he corroborated with the dna, he explained why he said it, why he gave her that advice, it resonated with a lot of us who have the same advice from her father's based on their lived experiences. whether or not judge mcafee had a context at the time, d a willis testified yesterday as to why she would keep cash on hand and cash in our house, i think it was cleared up by her father today. i don't see any reason for judge mcafee to question his testimony. i did believe the defense is going to argue that this witness was prepped, ahead of time, but that is of course

different from being coached. of course, as the attorneys, they would want to know how he would respond to the questions. they would know that d.a. willis and mr. weight's said that he was reimbursed in cash and that she was advised, or she had always been taught to keep cash, and could he corroborate that? all those questions that would normally be asked in preparing for this hearing, though i do suspect the defense quit trying to turn that around to say they somehow colluded in that their testimony together beforehand. but i do believe it was credible and i believe judge mcafee will find that testimony credible. >> katie phang, a huge surprise when attorney bradley was on cross-examination today where they brought out the issue of sexual assault and that is the reason he left the law firm where he was a partner with nathan wade. >> yeah, you want to talk about, lawrence, the case taking yet another bizarre, unexpected, and salacious turn.

but i think melissa is going to agree with me when i say this. when you put a witness on the stand that you know has baggage, and i'm going to call that serious baggage, like terrence broadly we are in, he had to leave the law firm partnership because he allegedly sexually assaulted an employee of that firm, you better bring that out on direct examination because the fact that it was brought out on cross-examination made it seem as if terrence bradley, a, had something to hide, and b, meant that he wasn't going to be credible or truthful. now, why is that important? because terence bradley, even though he is a former divorce lawyer for nathan wade, terrence bradley's credibility, just like all the witnesses that have been put under oath and testified before judge mcafee in this evidentiary hearing, it's going to be weighed by the judge when the judge makes a decision. because, as evidence, that is the only thing that is there in

terms of the form of the testimony. arguments by the lawyers, that is not evidence. the filings that have been done, not evidence, which is why it is crucial, i mean, there's been a lot of criticism, lawrence, about the fact that judge mcafee even had this hearing in the first place. but that threshold was met. the hearing had to take place because it is what the rules of the law requires. but, ultimately, mcafee has to make a decision based on evidence only. it can't be a swayed by any kind of prejudice or biases that he has a judge, and he has to rely on evidence. it is severely lacking, if not nonexistence, for the defense at this time. >> we're going to squeeze in a quick final break here. we'll come back with more on the situation with katie phang and melissa redmon. we're going to be right back. m we're going to be right back. it's smarter, healthier pet food. disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq.

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somebody sprayed, again, the b word and and word on the house. i don't think my daughter even knew that. i cleaned it off and called the police. the fulton police, they have all the records of all the things that happened. >> back with us, katie phang and melissa redmon. melissa, today, i kept wondering, and i don't know if you have an answer to this -- if a judge is to find in the defendants favor and disqualify fani willis, he would say, i am doing this because i believe, who is it and what is the testimony here that the judge has to belief and can belief to find and make a ruling like

that? >> he would have to find that the a willis and a special prosecutor weight or not credible in their testimony either about when the relationship began, or that they split expenses, roughly evenly, as they testified, such that she never received any benefit from the vacations that the defense has alleged created some personal interests such that it impacts why she is pursuing this case. if you think about how convoluted that is, that they are lying about when the relationship began, because they are lying about wendy burlison ship again, they are lying out they will spend this, when even if they did not, somehow created a personal interest in the prosecution of the difficult defendant r. i. c. o. case that took two years to investigate, months to present to a grand jury.

that's what you have to find. >> katie, we're all sitting there waiting for when we could feel a burden of proof has been. they did not even me what they set out in their motion here in the first place, where there were saying, they cohabitates, in testimonies, and i never cohabitates. there were things even in the motion where they were able to get them this hearing that they could establish? >> and that good faith was lacking, lawrence. trust me, the stake hold out them on the other side for it. i am glad that you said that. this is the reason that we have an evidentiary hearing. again, it has to be evidence. it can be wild allegations that had to be an emotion.

i am glad he brought it up, because really quickly, because i know we don't have a lot of time to go to, they allege that funny will specifically awarded contracts to nathan wade. when we heard from troy barnes today, in fact, she went the right ponce first before nathan wade. they say that she had private financial gain, no referral, that she paid her own way and not have private financial gain. they said that she did not appoint the most qualified person. judge mcafee said, we will not even deal with qualification, because that is not an issue. they said that she does not protect the public interest. i don't about you, lawrence, a r. i. c. o. indictment with 19 codefendants says sounds like the interest of the public is being protected. last but not least, they kept on saying that she had a financial interests. where is that financial interests? zero evidence that was provided to say that the financial interest have been realized. in fact, right barn some self said, to, this job, as a special prosecutor, you don't make enough money here. by the way, all the other special prosecutors in the, case lawrence, they're getting paid the same day reyes nathan wade. remember, lawrence, who brought the motion. he's an wizard specialist for the gop, and that's why you saw the allegations in the first place. >> katie phang, melissa redmon, thank you both for joining us tonight, we appreciate it. we'll be right back. right bac.

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