and i am shocked that he has not -- i applaud his vice president, former vice president pence did. many of republicans. have i am shocked that a leading nominee, the presumed nominee of one of the major parties of the greatest democracy in the world it is solid on a delicate. i hope mr. trump will reconsider that silence. >> one more for you. do you think we'll ever find out the truth of how he died? >> no. no. because it is putin's russia. tragically, i've had other friends that have been killed by this regime. i think -- 2014 and four years and years and years there was an alleged investigation into that. i suspect the same will be here. but i want to say it again. it doesn't matter exactly how he was killed. putin arrested him. he tried to kill him before he arrested him.

he put him in horrific gulag- like circumstances. listen to it from yulia last night, the way the incredibly all full, sadistic circumstances under which he endured to live, that's what putin did. so what the last straw was, i don't know, but i know for sure putin killed those courageous man. >> michael mcfaul, our condolences to you and andy to everybody who cares about democracy. this is a tragedy. that is our show for tonight. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good avening to you on this friday, lawrence. >> good to see you again,. alex on thursday, donald trump thinks he's the one who's suffering. and he couldn't breathe a word about alexei navalny. >> it is just staggering. this as a person that might be the republican nominee for president, saying nothing. >> alex, in the hearing in georgia today, fani willis's father was a star witness. we are going to bring you the

audio, some of that video. really extraordinary testimony from an extraordinary man. i knew not office history and i was just amazed what we learned about him on the witness stand. >> hayes and extort terrific rope. an american life, really. >> thank, you alex. >> have a good show. >> sends this network and other news organizations called a presidential election on saturday, november, seventh 2020, every day of donald trump 's life has been worse than the day before. today's $464 million worse than yesterday for donald trump and his children. no suspense and today's judicial finding and the civil fraud case brought against trump new york attorney general by letitia james. jury verdicts are always suspenseful. you never know what juries are thinking. but it was always very clear what effect funder in this case, judge arthur engoron was thinking. it was very clear it would any reasonable person would think

when confronted with the evidence in this case. in his role today, which cost donald trump and his children $463.9 million, including interest, judge engoron wrote, in order to pull right more and at lower, rights defendants submitted blatantly false financial debt to the accountants resulting and fraudulent financial statements. when confronted a trial with the statement, defendants effect and expert witnesses simply did not realty, and defendants filed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future occurrences. that's the essence of the case. so as of tonight, because of donald trump's stupidity and recklessness, as a businessman, and because of donald trump's of her depravity in right thing e. jean carroll in the 1990s, donald trump owes a total of

$551 million -- in the state of new york. and the interest is ticking on that total amounts. every day that it remains unpaid. that means the interest on watts donald trump owes in this case, one by new york attorney general letitia james, and in the cases, the two cases, one by e. jean carroll is increasing at a rate of $1 million per week. that the interest right now that's running on what donald trump owes in all of these cases. $1 million a week. to appeal those cases, in the state of new york, donald trump has to literally put up or shut up. he has to put up the money and question in order to appeal the new york cases. so donald trump has exactly 22 days left before he must

deposit the $83 million he owes e. jean carroll an and account controlled by the court. so that he can appeal that case. if he loses that appeal, that $83 million immediately goes to e. jean carroll. she won't have to chase donald trump for the. money donald trump has already the polls at the $5 million in an account controlled by the court while he's appealing the first verdict against e. jean carroll. that e. jean carroll one and. court donald trump has 30 days to deposit $463 million in an account control of the court so he can appeal this business fraud case. tonight, donald trump needs the kind of two billion dollars surge of saudi money and to his business that his son in law jared kushner got from the saudis after the trump presidency. florent choices of money like that don't bail out donald trump, it is unlikely the trump

businesses will experience a surge of income that is able to absorb the half a billion dollars in judgments donald trump now faces with hundreds of millions of dollars and legal judges likely to land on him in that lawsuits pending against him and washington, d.c., filed by police officers for the injuries they suffered at the hands of the violent trump mob on january 6th. donald trump will be barred from owning businesses in the state of new york for three years. his two children, donald trump junior and eric trump, will be barred for running businesses in new york for two years. after crushing the trump boys and their business in court today, new york attorney general letitia james said this. >> i want to be clear. what color financial fraud is not a victimless crime. went a powerful break the law, and take more than fair for a share, there are a fewer

resources available for working people, small businesses, and families. and every day americans cannot lie to a bank about how much money they have in order to get a mortgage to buy a home, or a loan to keep their business afloat. or to send their child to college. and if they did, our government would throw the book at them. i want to thank the entire, incredible, hardworking team in my office that tried this case. because the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering. and so too is his ego. and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. we are holding him accountable for lying, cheating, and a lack of contrition. and for flowers in

the roles that all of us must play by. because there cannot be different roles for different people in this country. and former presidents are no exception. this decision is a massive victory for every american who believes in that simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy. that the rule of law applies to all of us, equally, fairly, and justly. thank you. >> we are going to go inside donald trump's businesses with our experts tonight. tim o'brien -- msnbc political analyst. david cay johnston, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter, author of -- how donald trump placed america and enriched himself and his family. faith gay who served as a supervisor and the special prosecutor's and civil rights unit of the eastern district of

new york. and susanne craig, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter for the new york times. suzanne, you reminded me of another -- i left out of this, well over 500 million dollar burden -- >> i almost forgot about, it but he owes the new york times legal fees for suing -- 2008 -- our portion of the lawsuit was tossed out and he's been ordered to pay early go face. we are still waiting. >> which ran about $400,000. >> yes. >> he hasn't paid. i don't get. it >> he's got to either appeal, it put the money up -- >> are you worried about the new york times getting its $400,000 now there is more than half a billion -- >> there is a lot, isn't there, now, it's incredible. >> what does donald trump have to do to get the money he needs

trust to mount the appeal? >> we don't know quite yet because we don't know exactly how much cash he has on hand. that's a snapshot of any given day and how much he could. have he's claimed he has $400 million. that was lost. or he could have more or less. now but we do know that during his presidency -- there was lots of as it tails. as he entered the white house, he was in a precarious situation with his cash. 2015 happens, he announced he was running for president, made very disparaging amounts against mexicans. a lot of his lawsuits and deals. left it all abandoned shift. those were a real cash cow for. him one time payments he was getting, they just disappeared. he also lost the apprentice a, nbc also walked away from him on miss universe. he enters the white house. has a meeting with allen weisselberg, his accountant, and there is difficulty with a

cash. there is not that much left. but we do know since then, he has so the operating agreements he had on his hotel in washington. he also sold -- a golf course he had in new york. he also sold, he must have gotten less publicity, but condos he owned in new york. his mansion and carefully hills. i can keep going. he's been raising cash but at the same time, we don't know how much money he's having to plug into his many money losing businesses, just to keep them going. it's a hard thing, but we do know he has been quietly building up the cash blanket. this decision today, either to pay it or to put up the money so he can appeal on top of the e. jean carroll decision. these are massive amounts of money for him. i think we are looking -- it's going to be interesting to see what happens. i don't know and i think we'll have a situation where he'll have to put a bond. and how he's even going to get

that, given all the trouble he's in now. it is anybody's guess. >> no one's going to give -- let's listen. this is 30 seconds of donald trump under oath. let's listen to this, it has to be true, it's under oath, and it's donald trump telling us how much cash he has on hand right now. will evaluate the credibility of this. but as i say, it's under oath, so it has to be true. let's listen. >> i don't need the money, probably say the cash. we have a lot of cash. we have substantial an excess of 400 million cash. which is a lot for a developer. developers don't usually have cash, they have assets, not cash. i believe 400 plus and going up very substantially every months. my biggest expense is probably my legal face. unfortunately. that's okay. we have a lot of cash. we have great assets.

and we have a very valuable company. >> okay, we know he's lying about the legal face because he makes his contributors pay for. that tim o'brien, he's under oath, so it's got to be true, right? >> you have got to believe it, lawrence. i sort of relish the idea of susanne craig and the new york times filing a lane against trump tower to make sure they get paid at the end of the day. my colleagues at bloomberg news have estimated he'd have around 600 million. if it's 400, if it's three, if it's seven -- the reality is, the size of these judgments, cumulatively, are going to bludgeon hole in his wallet. and i don't think he has liquid assets, cash, securities, other things he could raise money by selling quickly. i don't think that will make most of his immediate needs around these penalties. as sue said, you don't know,

he's a privately held and the price. we have to rely on his own public statements. but it's likely that he may have to sell some of his hardest hits. and most of his wealth is tied up in a handful of urban skyscrapers and some cold courses. the urban skyscrapers have been stressed because of covid. that people have been fleeing city centers. and of the real estate buyers know trump is under duress. he may have to sell those things at far south process. it's a horrible situation for him to be. in financially. and then there is the edge, it i think, psychological and reputational wound of being put into exile. from new york for three years. and trump talks a lot about his legacy. he likes to compare himself to other famous families. and the trumps are at the roosevelt or the committees or the ventricles or the rockefellers. that sort of a dime store version of. that but he paid a lot of

attention to that. and i think there is no way this ruling also doesn't just strike a blow to his sense of himself as a new yorker for as much as he dumped on the city. he's always considered himself a new yorker. the donald trump we saw, you know, rise up in the 19 80s, through the 90s, and there, after was initially a creation of his father's wealth. his father for aids wealth. and trump has just gone around with a sledgehammer and taken to the foundations of the family 's business and his own business. in the pursuit of whatever he wants to do. now people are asking for receipts. and he's not been in this position before. this meant donald trump has described the long arm of the loyal forever and ever. he's never been subjected to the kind of prosecutorial talent and zeal that confronting him right now. and then the antics he engagement in the court, that

placed his political base but obviously are judges who are hearing those cases. and they have come after him with as much, i think, for us as they could. i was surprised that engoron late a financial penalty on him of this size. i thought he was going to exile him completely from new york and go with a lighter financial penalty. i think that's a reflection of how tyrants the courts are of what he's trying to do, as he abuses the rule of law. >> faith gay, what does the appeals process look like for donald trump and what does he have to do to comply with it and obviously has to put up the -- in new york, you have to put up the money to run an appeal. it's a pretty big burden. >> yeah, you have to put a ball. and that's usually about 120% of what the judgment is. we are talking huge amounts of money here, lawrence, more than half a billion. i would say this judgment is pretty appeal proof. he'll have

a shot at the intermediate court of appeals and there's a discretionary shot at the states highest court, the court of appeals. but judge engoron really went out of its way to support the judgment and it's a simple case . in new york, you lose the right to do business and the world's financial capital, new york city, if you engage in a persistent pattern of dishonesty. and that's what's happened here. if you do that, and the judge finds, that two things happen. you give back the money that you obtained by dishonesty. and you are barred, blocked from doing business. here, the judge put in really mainstream penalty. he enhanced judge jones, the monitor, her powers. so donald trump can no longer, through his companies, run them. he can't issue fraudulent financial statements. the judge, whose amount, or will check in. first he put in -- the judge put in a mandatory compliance clause and put in a pretty modest

penalty of three years barring business for donald trump in new york and two years for his sons. those are proportionate penalties. i think given the massive findings of fact, and credibility determinations the judgment, this is going to be a very difficult decision for trump to attack. >> david, does this mean, now that there are in effect super viruses off the trump business or forcing the whole thing, does this mean we'll get a new financial picture of what the trump businesses actually are? >> yes. the independent director who will effectively run the company, because he'll control large amounts of money. and the requirement for any large transaction, they can pay salaries -- but because they, while under the supervision of judge jones, did all sorts of improper money movements, they

have to now get pre approval. and there will have to be accountants to the court about all this. that's going to very much hamper donald's style. he did get one nice thing courtesy of governor kathy hochul and the states legislature. the 9% annual rate set by state law for civil judgments was reduced this year to 2% going forward. >> all right, our panel will stay right with us. please stay with us. there is much more on this case and then what happened in georgia today when fani willis's father took the witness stand. you are going to want to say that. we'll be right back. ight back. r adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) oh, hi buddy! (avo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in

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i'm daniel lurie learn how abbvie and i've spent my career fighting poverty, helping people right here in san francisco. i'm also a father raising two kids in the city. deeply concerned that city hall is allowing crime and lawlessness to spread. now we can do something about it by voting yes on prop e. a common sense solution that ensures we use community safety cameras to catch repeat offenders and hold them accountable. vote yes on e. >> i totally anybody's money. it's nice. on anybody's money. i'm using my own money. i'm not using that lobbyists, i'm not using cars, i don't care. i'm really rich. >> turns out that was a lie. we're about to find out if

donald trump is rich enough to handle what is now over health a billion dollars in legal judgments against him, just this month and new york state. the new york attorney general's case against donald trump him today and a judgment of $464 million against him and his children. and here is how and where it began. >> i want to ask a little bit about your conversation with my colleague from missouri about asset inflation. to your knowledge, that the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company. >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did? this >> allen weisselberg, ron liebermann, and matthew calamari. >> and we are what the committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his text returns in order to compare them? >> yes, and could find it at the trump org. >> our trump business experts

are back. tim o'brien, david cay johnston, faith gay, and susanne craig. well, here we are. >> here we are. it's incredible, that's one of where it started. >> with michael cohen as the person who did the k turning over of the courage to get this. >> yes, and since then it's been an unraveling. really spectacular. we worked on a story that ran in 2008 and look at some of these things and the games they were playing, evaluations go all the way back to his father. that's where it started. then to see it all the way for today, it's remarkable. >> tim o'brien, it is an indication, by the way, it's one of the reasons why i thought donald trump would never run for president. because the level of scrutiny that is possible, and that is likely to occur into his private life and his business life, is something he couldn't

survive. as susanne just mentioned, he survived a 2008 look by that new york times at this kind of thing. but when alexandria ocasio- cortez does that kind of thing continue with michael cohen, and that new york attorney general is watching, up in new york, watching that, that's it. you have unlocked a door and there are very powerful forces who will investigate at that. point >> win pay your loris, and don't leave the rollers out to dry. when your lawyers have had a look at some of your deals with banks, and your books, and the deals you are connecting inside your office on fifth avenue. and that's another thing. trump historically has sniffed his attorneys without suffering some of the blow back from that other people would. he went through decades of journalists coleman through his

finances. writing approximations of letitia james's argument decades before. and he kept skating along. and it is because of this hubris. i think hey decided he had run for president before, too, but obviously hit never won. the scrutiny was intensified but it wasn't until he began randomly breaking the law, that he got turned up. and as we talked about before, he's simply in a position he's never been used to. he's trying to pull every last truck out of the. back he's appealing the court of public opinion because he's getting brutalized so badly in courts of law. >> faith gay, what is the best legal advice to donald trump right now on this pegula case? is there any reason not to appeal the case? >> absolutely not. as i've said, i think that judgment is pretty appeal

proof. there is so many witnesses. it's not just michael cohen, the judge went out of his way to say cohen's testimony was important but it was corroborated by many others and many documents. but i think what we are doing right now, what hay should be doing is engaging in delight. he has an absolute right of appeal. he can go back in court and try to push monterrey's and compliance offer his duties, trying to make them smaller. he can quibble about that in a way that may cause delight. and he can push the court -- pushes appeal to the highest court in the state. so i think, just like with all these trials, his game's delight. he doesn't want a judgment and once he gets it he drags out to the full state of the. law and i will say, new york will give him due process like that gets every person from the low was to the highest. he will get the chance to appeal once and maybe try to appeal again. >> david cay johnston, you have been studying donald trump's business for a long time. you have had some opportunities

to talk to him about in the. past how is he feeling tonight? >> donald will go to his grave insisting that i have a perfect company, i did everything right. but he knows internally that they got him. and he doesn't have any mechanism to cope with it. at trial, he didn't have to be held responsible for anything. so as the judge said, he has a near pathological need. here to donald, a life that would trouble you and me, i don't mean telling your four- year-old nurse a santa claus, is like a consequence. it doesn't matter just as long as you get the money. certainly, he's got the pay out of money. >> david cay johnston, tim o'brien, susanne craig, faith gay, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. thank you. coming up, in georgia today, we

did not say fulton county district attorney fani willis return to the witness stand. but her father, john floyd, a retired attorney took to the witness stand to defend his delivery. and that is the testimony you really need to see. he was the star witness today. that's next. today. that's next. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year.

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the second day of the hearing in fulton county,

georgia, about the trump codefendants motion to disqualify district attorney fani willis from the case began as andrew weissmann predicted it would begin. because fani willis lawyers decided not to ask for any more questions, that meant that the trump team of lawyers did not get another chance to ask questions of fani willis. and so she gave no more testimony today. andrew weissmann predicted that would happen because at the period from the fani willis side of the case yesterday, she had established everything she needed to establish in that testimony yesterday. and there was no reason to continue. at the fani willis lawyer cold to witnesses in support of her testimony. the first witness was the former governor of georgia, roy burns, who was a highly experienced -- is a highly experienced trial lawyer. he impressed everyone in the court on both. sauti testified fani willis offered him the job of special

prosecutor in charge of the case against donald trump and his codefendants. his testimony refuted the trump team lowers claim that fani willis hired her boyfriend, nathan wade, for the job a special prosecutor so she could then go on vacation trips with nathan wade and profit from his spending on her through the paycheck she was giving him. that is the trump team lawyer's theory of the case. now that the testimony in the hearing is over, we can say that there was absolutely no evidence presented at all that's fani willis intended to profit from nathan wade's position or that she incidentally profited from that position in any way. zero evidence for the fundamental reason this hearing was held. fani willis and nathan wade both testified that their romantic relationship began after nathan wade began working in the district attorney's's office. here was former governor barnes

testimony about why he didn't want the job of a special prosecutor, that eventually went to nathan wade. he didn't want to be the special prosecutor of the man who tried to overturn the presidential election in georgia and sent a violent mob to attack the capitol on january 6th. >> i've lived with bodyguards for four years, and i didn't like it. i didn't want bodyguards for the rest of my life. >> so the terrorism of donald trump and his mobs worked in that particular instance. there it was shocking testimony and that late afternoon today when terrence brightly, who was nathan wade's low partner, and was the first lawyer involved in handling nathan wade's divorce took the witness stand and testified he did have communication with the trump team lawyer who filed this motion against fani willis. but that wasn't the shocking part. the shocking part came on cross

examination by fani willis's lawyer who revealed what terrence brightly might have been in contact with one of the trump team lawyers. >> you left -- the firm remained the same, as far as nathan wade handled as that main partner of the, you worth one that left. >> that is correct. >> you termed it as a disagreement, you are answering questions as though due to a disagreements. yes? >> yes. >> and that disagreement was there was an elevation of sexual assault by an employee might against you. is that correct? >> that is incorrect. >> there was not an allegation you sexually assaulted one of the employees? >> that is incorrect bought --

but yes. yes. >> there was an allegation you sexually assaulted a member of the firm. >> that is correct. >> did you sexually assault any clients of the reform? >> no. >> never? >> never. >> who is and rodriguez? >> i don't even know that name. >> you don't recall the client ana rodriguez? >> i do not. i do not recall the name and roderick is. >> the next witness we call is ana rodriguez -- the sexual assault of an rodriguez, a client of the. for >> the judge did not allow that testimony by and rodriguez, saying it was too far afield from the point of the essence of the feeling. the most impressive witness also that was the man who helped make fani willis, who she is. her father, john clifford floyd

both hurt. he is a retired attorney who practice law and washington, d.c., and around the world including working and south africa with nelson mandela and working for four years and rwanda. fani willis father testified he moved in with her in the summer of 2019, when fani willis had a boyfriend who was a dj who was frequently at her house. that conflicts with the trump team lawyers claim that fani willis began dating nathan wade in 2019. fani willis father said he never once -- never once saw nathan wade at your home and never met him until this year. mr. floyd explained why his daughter had to move out of the house. >> they have been so many death threats. and they said they were gonna blow up the house, killed her, kill me. they were gonna kill migrant children. on and on and on.

it came and i was concerned for her safety. >> the people who are threatening to kill him and his daughter and his grandchildren are at the supporters of the clients also lawyers who were all facing him in that room today. some of them questioning him. when the lawyer representing donald trump questioned fani willis's father, he handled the questioning, her father hand of the questioning as gracefully and as professionally as former governor burns. did there wasn't even a hint of anything but professional respect that attorney john clifford floyd iii showed to his fellow attorney, the lawyer for donald trump, the man who killed his daughter a racist. the man who has never, ever told his supporters not to threaten her life and not to threaten her father's life and not to threaten her children's lives. because of security precautions to in place, fani willis's father doesn't get to see her

much anymore. >> i've only saint michael to her 13 times because i can't -- and we have never seen each other more than maybe three hours because of, it, know that not more threats against her and me. >> yesterday, fani willis testified her father always advised her to make sure she always had enough cash on hand to deal with whatever surprise might come her way. >> your honor, i'm not trying to be racist, okay? but it's a black thing. okay? i was trained and most black folks, they had cash. they keep cash. i was trained, you always keep some cash because i've been places and just because of the color of my skin, for example, to a fellowship at harvard when my daughter was just -- if i might, your honor, when she was

just maybe three years old. and i remember going to a restaurant in cambridge, massachusetts. and i head and american express credit card and maybe a visa, or whatever. and i had a lot of what they call travelers checks. i don't know if they still have travelers checks. but travelers checks. and there was a sign saying, credit card, for whatever reasons, that meant would not take my american express credit card. so i pulled up my visa card. and he wouldn't take my visa card. so that i put up a travelers checks. he said we don't take checks. even travelers checks, this was money. i hit a ten dollar bill. i'll never forget this as long as i live. he said, the bill for my wife, at the time, fani's mother, fani and myself, was none dollars and 95 cents. i handed him a ten dollar bill.

i'll always remember that. but even before that, i've always kept cash. and i told my daughter, you keep six months worth of cash, always. for example, i had three saves in my house. i put some of my clients stuff there, to, things i didn't want other lawyers to -- you're always in a firm, and i knew there was a special additions. so some of my clients things i would bring home, put them in the safe. but i've always kept safe and, as a matter of fact, i gave my daughter her first -- i told her, always keep some cash. >> joining us now from atlanta or our katie phang, attorney and host of the katie phang show, saturdays at noon, eastern, on msnbc. and msnbc legal analyst melissa redmon, former fulton county deputy district attorney and professor at the university of georgia school of law. melissa, let me begin with you on what we just heard from john

floyd, fani willis's father. how do you the judge received the testimony? the testimony? found out yesterday why she would keep cash on hand and at the house, epi think it was cle by her father today. i don't see any reason for judge mcafee's question to his testimony. i do believe that our view, this witness was prepped, ahead of time, but that is different from being coached. of course, the attorneys, they would want to know how he would respond to the questions. they would know that mr. wade

said she was reimbursed in cash, and that she was advised, she had always been taught to keep cash, because he corroborated that. all those were questions normally asked in the courts prepared for the hearing. i do suspect outside the turned around to say that they colluded and got their testimony together beforehand. but i do believe that it was credible. i believe judge mcafee will find him credible. >> katie phang, huge surprise when attorney bradley was on cross-examination today, where t they brought up the issue of sexual htassault and that is th reason that he left the law firm, with his partner, nathan wade. >> yeah, you want to talk about, lawrence, the case taking yet another bizarre, ar unexpected and salacious turn. i think melissa will agree with me when i say this. when you put a witness on the stand that you know has baggage, and i will call that serious packaged like terrence bradley, wherein, he had to

leave a , law firm partnership p because he allegedly sexually assaulted an employee of that firm, you better bring that out on direct examination, because the fact that it was brought out on cross-examination made it seem as if parents bradley, a, had something to hide, and, b, meant that he was not going to be hecredible, or he was not going to be truthful. why is that important? because terence bradley, even though he is the former defense -- excuse me, divorce lawyer, for nathan wade. terrence bradley's credibility,a just like all the witnesses that ikhave been put under oath and testified before a judge mcafee in the evidentiary hearing, it will be weighed by the judge, when the judge makes a decision. as evidence, that is the only there in terms of the testimony. arguments by the lawyers, that's not evidence. the filings that have been done, linot evidence, which is why it's crucial. there's been a lot of criticism, lawrence, about the

fact that judge mcafee even had a searing t in the first place, but that threshold was met. the hearing eshad to take place because that is what the rules and laws require. all timidly, mcafee, has to make a decision based on evidence only. it can't be swayed by any types of diocese that he has as a judge, and he has to rely on evidence. it's severely lacking, if not not existent for the defense at this. time is >> will squeeze in a quick, final break here. we'll come back with more naon the situation with katie phang and melissa redmon. we'll be right back. redmon. we'll be right back.

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somebody sprayed, again, the b word and and word on the house. i don't think my daughter even knew that. i cleaned it off and called the police. the fulton police, they have all the records of all the things that happened. >> back with us, katie phang and melissa redmon. melissa, today, i kept wondering, and i don't know if you have an answer to this -- if a judge is to find in the defendants favor and disqualify fani willis, he would say, i am doing this because i believe, who is it and what is the testimony here that the judge has to belief and can belief to find and make a ruling like that?

>> he would have to find that the a willis and a special prosecutor weight or not credible in their testimony either about when the relationship began, or that they split expenses, roughly evenly, as they testified, such that she never received any benefit from the vacations that the defense has alleged created some personal interests such that it impacts why she is pursuing this case. if you think about how convoluted that is, that they are lying about when the relationship began, because they are lying about wendy burlison ship again, they are lying out they will spend this, when even if they did not, somehow created a personal interest in the prosecution of the difficult defendant r.i.c.o. case that took two years to investigate, months to present to a grand jury. that's what you have to find. >> katie, we're all sitting there waiting for when we could

feel a burden of proof has been. they did not even me what they set out in their motion here in the first place, where there were saying, they cohabitates, in testimonies, and i never cohabitates. there were things even in the motion where they were able to get them this hearing that they could establish? >> and that good faith was lacking, lawrence. trust me, the stake hold out them on the other side for it. i am glad that you said that. this is the reason that we have an evidentiary hearing. again, it has to be evidence. it can be wild allegations that had to be an emotion. i am glad he brought it up, because really quickly, because i know we don't have a lot of time to go to, they allege that funny will specifically awarded contracts to nathan wade. when we heard from troy barnes today, in fact, she went the right ponce first before nathan wade. they say that she had private financial gain, no referral, that she paid her own way and not have private financial gain.

they said that she did not appoint the most qualified person. judge mcafee said, we will not even deal with qualification, because that is not an issue. they said that she does not protect the public interest. i don't about you, lawrence, a r.i.c.o. indictment with 19 codefendants says sounds like the interest of the public is being protected. last but not least, they kept on saying that she had a financial interests. where is that financial interests? zero evidence that was provided to say that the financial interest have been realized. in fact, right barn some self said, to, this job, as a special prosecutor, you don't make enough money here. by the way, all the other special prosecutors in the, case lawrence, they're getting paid the same day reyes nathan wade. remember, lawrence, who brought the motion. he's an wizard specialist for the gop, and that's why you saw the allegations in the first place. >> katie phang, melissa redmon, thank you both for joining us tonight, we appreciate it. we'll be right back. appreciate. we'll be right back. hi mom. that's the value of ownership.

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