you -- scale of 1 to 100 -- as i want to work in the department of justice, that one of these trials, particular the jan sixth, jack smith trial happened will happen in the first six months of 2024? >> with 100 being i'm certain it will happen i am -- around the 20 -- >> -- from 2024? >> with 100 being uncertain it will happen i'm around the 20s. >> you think delays is as likely as anything? >> yeah. i think that delay is very common to begin with, and then when you have the defense team really focusing on it, and they have a bunch of legitimate reasons for delay. that calender you pointed out there's a crazy bunch of delays coming up for real reasons. >> thank you both. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. >> i feel all our conversations starts with in-depth analysis

and also tell us is it going to happen before the election. >> could i say something? i think the fact we have to make a television show every night gives us a weird perspective on this. we're like what is everyone waiting for? you got to wait. >> we went through the indictment. >> we're ready. >> we're familiar with the evidence. >> let's do it. let's go. let's get it on-air. >> 11.6 million pages of discovery. let's go. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. the article starts with this, "the woman cannot believe it, she is in the same elevator as rudolf giuliani. oh, this is a thrill." it's a random new yorker in the year 1985. 1985 was the year rudolf giuliani made a name for himself.

it was the year giuliani pioneered the same prosecutorial tactics that now very much look like they could be his downfall. but let me back up just a little bit. this is carmine "the cigar" gallante. and in the late '70s he flew a little too close to the sun. he was shot at point-blank range in an italian restaurant in brooklyn. allegedly the motivation of his assassins is gallante decided he should be the head mob boss, but the other mob bosses did not agree. a guy named anthony, called whack whack, he not the person who decided the fate of carmine. he may have been part of the group that pulled the trigger

but he would not have made a decision that big. he's what is referred to in the mafia as a capo, a middle ranking member of a mafia family. and the young district attorney rudolf giuliani didn't just want tageafter the capo. he said the only practice just helped speed the succession along. saying it was not an unrealistic goal to crush them. so giuliani went for the people at the top. >> the indictment of the national commission of organized crime according to the fbi this nine-member ruling body is cochaired by the men who are the bosses of new york's five organized crime families.

>> the case that made then-u.s. attorney rudy giuliani a national figure wasn't about any one criminal or any one crime. it was about how all of these crimes, drug deals and extortion, even murder, how all of that was ultimately controlled by the people at the top in the formf a criminal enterprise. in this case a ruling body with a mob boss from every family, a ruling -- a ruling body called the commission. >> they are said to be one of the most powerful crime families in new york, in fact in the nation. and according to the government they make up the commission, a ruling body of a criminal enterprise involved in loan-sharking, labor racketeering, and murder. the mafia leaders were rounded up in an overnight sweep and new york attorney rudolf giuliani announced the indictments. >> this is a bad day and probably the worst for the mafia.

>> the commission had existed in new york for more than 50 years at that point without anyone being able to touch it. what gave giuliani the ability to go after the commission itself rather than just the commission's foot soldiers like wack wack was giuliani's pioneering use of a relative new, the lack tear influenced and corrupt organization act of 1970. you might know it as rico. before 1970 prosecutors were limited to seeking indictments for a crime. rico changed that. if you could prove there was an enterprise or an organized group of some kind conspiring together to commit multiple crimes, then you could charge for that conspiracy. >> when ron came to visit me about putting together a rico case. at that point we all thought that that was a possibility of putting together a case on the

commission of the mafia, but it was on the drawing boards at the time, and there were an awful lot of people including people in law enforcement who thought it was totally unrealistic, ridiculous, could not be done. >> rudy giuliani did it. the top bosses in new york's mafia bosses were given 100-year prison sentences. the case made giuliani famous. now a version of that same law, georgia's rico statute, a version of that law could be rudy giuliani's downfall. of all the indictments former president trump faces one of the things that makes yesterday's unique is how many other defendants there are. because it was a rico case trump was indicted along with 18 other codefendants. 19 people, 19 all charged with being part of a criminal enterprise just like how giuliani charged the commission in the 1980s. and last night fulton county

d.a. fani willis made clear she intends to try this whole criminal enterprise together. >> do i intend to try the 19 defendants in this indictment together? yes. >> now, we have seen plenty of high profile cases against individual defendants play out in trial over the last few years. the trial against trump's campaign manager paul manafort, for example. we know how those trials work. but what about a case against 19 people? what about a rico case? how will this all work? and now that 19 of these individuals are facing serious jail time how soon until someone in this case flips? because make no mistake as much is trump is surrounded by cospirators here in both the federal case and georgia case, even someone like rudy giuliani is ultimately just a capo in this criminal enterprise. the big boss, the end game here is donald j. trump, and the question tonight is does the

rico law that rudy giuliani built his career on, does that ultimately ensnare donald j. trump. joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, and laura jarrett, senior legal correspondent for nbc news. laura and joyce, great to have you both with me tonight. laura, let me start with you in terms of the many people named in this indictment down in fulton county. i want to start with the news we have on mark meadows. because mark meadows today is filing for a change of venue. he's filed to move fani willis' case against him to federal court. do you think such a move is likely? >> whether or not it'll be successful will be up to the judge. let me just say it's not frivolous. it's not crazy. whether or not he'll win, we'll have to see. but the argument is what he's being charged with in the new indictment has to do with things and actions he took while he was

chief of staff. the removal statute says if you have a coverable arguably move you have to remove it. if the charge was mark meadows had to do with robbing a bank you would say that's crazy. phone calls, putting pressure on state officials he'd say that's not per se criminal. of course prosecutors would disagree with him. they would say that is criminal. but again it'd be up to the judge. i think this is going to be a closer one than perhaps someone else like rudy giuliani. >> right, and we're going to talk about giuliani in a second, joyce. we'll talk about the merits of arguing this is not criminal behavior on the part of mark meadows, but moving this case to federal court has i guess the advantage of a different and presumably more sympathetic jury pool. how meaningful do you think that that will be for someone like mark meadows? >> so i think sometimes we get

too comfortable talking about juries as though they are voting pools, right? we think about juries, how does that county vote? in my experience as a prosecutor, people's political beliefs really don't impact their jury service. judges do a great job of telling them they have to decide cases based on the evidence and law they're instructed on and hear in the courtroom and they need to leave at the door any biases they might have including their political affiliation. we know juries are really good at doing that. so while meadows and some of the other defendants, trump, may perceive some advantage in moving into federal court where the jury pool exceeds fulton county -- it goes up into georgia's northern countiesch. on the east it touches alabama, so some very conservative parts of the state, you know, they may perceive an advantage. in reality there may not be a big one there. >> even if there isn't an

advantage i think joyce would agree with me what this shows is an opportunity for delay. this indictment hasn't even been baked for 24 hours and already they have a removal motion going and other defendants might do that. i think this shows you how fraught it's going to be to deal with 19 people. the motion practices are going to go on for months. the idea this is six months in the making is just not realistic. >> i mean, joyce, i should mention rudy giuliani who we spent some time talking at the start of this program also believes it should be move to federal court. is it a forgone conclusion? to set aside the jury piece of it how meaningfully could this delay? >> laura is dead on the money. progression practices here will be all about delay. it won't just be motions to remove. we'll see a lot of them. they'll be individual. they'll have to be decided on their individual merits because these defendants will have different sort of status as to

whether or not they can claim they were a federal official or acting under the orders of a federal official, which is necessary to trigger removal, they'll have different defenses. it'll be a mess, and that'll only be that one type of motion. some defendants will file motions to dismiss saying the charges against them simply fail to state a federal crime. it should be dismissed on that basis. so six months will pass in the blink of an eye i suspect while these pretrial motions are litigated. whether this case ends up in federal court is a wide open question. but i think laura is right to say it's not frivolous. and although the judge if the judge reads the paper whatever the defendant says to the federal judge is supposed to be a short, plain statement. this one is not. it's rathery lengthy and convoluted. the judge may look at it and say i can't read this and make a determination to say it's okay to send it back to state court

so we need to have an evidentiary hearing, and that of course involves more delay. >> i do wonder when you talk about the various codefendants having different status, laura, meadows' lawyers are making the case what he did was arranging phone calls, visiting facilities down at the state, cobb countych i do wonder when we talk about flipping and the fact when you have such a large pool of codefendants, the goal of the prosecutor is to leverage these people against each other. do you see this giant number of codefendants as a potential pool for flippage -- >> of course. >> can we call it flippage? i'm not sure. >> of course. these are people who have very different incentive structures than a person than like say walt nauta who has this unusual loyalty relationship with the former president. i don't know that kanye west's

former publicist want to face 5 to 20 years in priz mchb do you want to gamble that with somebody you don't have a relationship with? this is a serious charge. i just think the incentives in this case are very different, and there are a wide range of people who are not household names who nay decide this is not something they're willing to bear and put their families through. >> what about household names? as of tonight there's reporting rudy giuliani is in dire financial straights. his apartment is up for sale. in trump's inner circle you'd think that's who prosecutors would want to go for in particular could turn to be a cooperating witness. tell me how it works, joyce. >> right. so the people that you want most as your cooperating witnesses are the people who bring you the most value in terms of what they can testify to.

and may or may not be rudy giuliani in this situation. something interesting with these folks whose names we recognize is many of them are lawyers. they appreciate what st. might mean to spend two, three, five years in a florida prison. they're motivated to make sure that's not the outcome that awaits them at the end of this trial. i think it's not unerably to assume we'll see some of these people file their legal plosions, see if they can get pulled from the herd if they have a defense unique to them or some other ability to escape this sort of prosecution. and then if they realize they really are right in fani willis' sights they may reach the point they decide it's time to go ahead and negotiate a deal to offer up whatever they have. it is a calculated risk, by the way, to litigate before you do that because typically the first people to cooperate get the best deal, but some of these folks

may feel like they have potential defenses they want to run out, let them play out before they decide whether or not to plead guilty and cooperate. >> okay, there's a lot more to talk to both of you guys about this, so please joyce vance and laura jarrett, do not go anywhere. when we come back the new revelations about the fake elector scheme in fani willis' indictment and why another shoe may be about to drop. but first we know who the named and indicted coconspirators, but what about the unnamed and unindicted coconspirators? who they could be and what they could do to this same case is coming up next. stay with us. e case is coming up next stay with us me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number.

so d.a. fani willis' sprawling indictment names donald trump and 18 other defendants accusing them of racketeering and 40 other crimes in thafr effort to overturn the 2020 election results in georgia, but the indictment also includes 30 unnamed unindicted coconspirators whose identities are known only to the grand jury down in georgia. now, nbc news is still going through the indictment to figure out who these individuals might be, but certain details in this document point to specific people. for example, while the indictment does not say who unindicted coconspirator individual 8 is, it shows that this person, individual 8, took

part in the fake elector scheme and tried to drum up public support for subverting the election with a tweet sent on december 9th calling for voters to ask lawmakers for a special session. and that tweet matches word for word a tweet sent by then georgia state senator burt jones also on december 7th. so unnamed and unindicted but for how long? still with me joyce vance and laura jarrett. laura, i mean we're going to know the names of these 30 unindicted coconspirators one would presume relatively soon. it seems like jum the sleuthing we've done a fair number of them are fake electors who have immunity deals squared away. the rest of them are these potential leverage points for the federal government is that why they're unnamed and unindicted yet? >> perhaps the person who's going to provide some testimony in exchange for that, they'll get immunity.

sometimes the government just doesn't have the evidence to make the case for whatever reason. they think they don't have the texts or the calls. sometimes it's just messy, right, so you list them as un indicted coconspirator. i think we'll have to wait and see what else comes out on this, but i think it's certainly clear that they have some people cooperating and that they want some more and that they've certainly added this large group as a pressure meginism. >> joyce, so 18 other named and indicted coconspirators, 30 unnamed and unindicted coconspirators. we're talking about a large number of people involved in this in one way or another, either directly indicted or floating around indictments, potentially cooperating. what is your assessment about how this case gets to trial? i mean how practically -- this

seems so unwieldy, so sprawly. for the layman, lay person, how does fani willis get this done? >>ia know when fani willis indicted another case, the atlanta educator's case, a cheating scam on grading exams, she actually indicted 35 defendants. by the time she got to trial there were only 12 of them left, and that's this sort of winnowing procedure you're hinting at, alex, where some of these folks will decides to plead guilty maybe without a deal. others may want a deal and they may plead and cooperate and strengthen her case, but it's likely by the time willis goes to trial she'll no longer have all 19 of these defendants on her hands. rico cases, any big conspiracy case is messy. you've got 10 defendants, you've got 10 people making opening statements and cross examining witnesses and jumping up and saying, your honor, i object. so it is a little bit different than the normal trial, but it's

not nothing a prosecutor and particularly one like willis who has a number of these rico cases under her belt isn't well-equipped to handle. >> joyce, let me ask a follow-up on that. in terms of the penalties these folks are facing, these a lot of back and forth about whether rico charges in georgia have a mandatory five-year sentence or whether a convicted person can serve probation, also whether it's five years in jail or a fine or both. i mean how real is the legal peril here? >> right. so anyone who's confused by georgia's statutory scheme is doing a really good job of reading the law because it in fact is very confusing. the rico statute itself says people who are convicted should be sentenced to no less than five years in prison, and that's language we typically associate with a mandatory minimum. however, there's another provision of georgia law that says the judge can make a decision in certain kinds of cases that the sentence should

be one of probation, that it shouldn't be the full five-year mandatory minimum. so when willis indicted the educator case, some of the defendants convicted received sentences of two to three years, others received lower sentences. and there were folks on the high end who received sentences well beyond five years, which suggests that for the most culpable defendant in a successful rico prosecution, there is a lot of peril. that is a lot of time to spend in a georgia prison. >> okay, i'm going to assume we're talking about donald trump when we say to people most involved in this. laura, what happens as the fani willis case and the jack smith case intersect here? tell me definitively who gets priority here. >> well, i think there's a fair amount of overlap, and so i think the real question is what does the former president do over the next course of days, weeks, and months to push her to move this trial up? she has already issued --

>> judge chutkan. >> judge chutkan has issued something of a warning, and i don't think if he continues to try to put out social media posts that intimidate witnesses arguably that she's going to throw them in jail or cite him for contempt. i do think there's a possibility she decides i'm going to move this trial up as she warned him she would do because she's worried about the integrity of the proceedings. i think we could see this case go before the georgia case even though obviously a federal case is complex as well. i think it's a possibility even if there are delay attempts it could actually go before. >> it is more built for speed and the judge has suggested speed is a punishment. so it'll be up to him. joyce vance, laura jarrett, thank you for your wisdom and expertise. we have much more this evening including the kanye west connection to georgia.

how a rapper's publicist ended up indicted with donald trump. but first the fake elector investigation is still ongoing across the country. what is happening in michigan and why you should keep your eyes on the state of arizona. that's next. eyes on the state of arizona that's next.

so 84 people in seven states president biden won in 2020 served as fake electors for donald trump. state and federal prosecutors have investigated this fake elector scheme for months now and last night prosecutor fani willis indicted three fake electors. combined these three are facing 26 criminal charges including forgery, making false statements, and violating georgia's rico statute. those georgia fake electors are now part of a club that includes michigan's 16 frak electors who were charged by that state's attorney general last month, which begs the question are we reaching this sort of critical mass that is needed for more states to try these people in earnest? in arizona state attorney general chris maize, a democrat who took office this january, she's currently investigating that group of fake electors and other attempts to flip the vote to trump. and you maw may remember rusty

bowers like brad raffensperger down in georgia defied trump's pressure to reverse biden's victory. we asked for an update on that investigation and we received no comment. joining us to discuss our not so secret weapon lisa rubin. thanks for being here. this is something we casually talk about, when's it going to happen in arizona? but the parallels of what happened in arizona and what happened in georgia during the 2020 election are eerily similar. how much do you think this georgia indictment sort of puts the pressure or pushes the ball forward over in arizona? >> i wouldn't call it pressure because each state is its own political ecosystem. one of the key difference here is republicans in arizona still pledge fealty to donald trump. and those that didn't like rusta bowers or even mark who ran and didn't succeed because he took on donald trump, those people no longer have power in arizona. on the other hand, in georgia they did, so they were unafraid

to talk to fani willis, whether they did so voluntarily or a wink, wink, nod nod subpoena i'll come on in, those people had to be tremendously helpful to her. >> that's such an important distinction actually the way georgia republicans handled this versus the arizona republicans. what about nevada? because nevada is mentioned in the jack smith federal indictment and yet the nevada a.g. has not brought any charges here and is also a democrat. >> the nevada a.g. has said publicly he doesn't intend to because he doesn't believe the statutes in his statewide allow him to. where it came to, you know, sort

of more nebulous statutes that could apply to lots of different situations like forgery or solicitation he unlike fani willis thought that wasn't enough, so he announced in may he'll not bring charges. i'll be curious to see whether this indictment causes aaron ford, who's the democrat elected a.g. in nevada to revisit that conversation. >> well, you'd think, and let's talk about josh call over in wisconsin, the democratic a.g. with the opening -- i don't know you'd call it a pandora's box. once one fulton county d.a. says look what happened in our state, it's a miscarriage of justice and you're sitting yoin urown state where the same thing basically unfolded it seems it's incumbent on these democrats to do something or have a good reason why they're not. >> josh caul has sort of been a vault on this. we've asked him, others have asked do you plan to investigate, and he's basically said i have been in contact with

federal government and that's all i'm going to say. i do think in nevada jack smith might have something more up his sleeve, and that's because what happened in nevada is particularly egregious. the secretary of state under nevada law is required to preside under any meeting of electors. that secretary of state, a republican at the time, had already signed a certificate for the real electors. and the fact that the two electioners have received partial immunity from jack smith makes me think jack smith is not done with the nevada story. even if it doesn't show up, will it show up in future indictments against any of the unindicted coconspirators or people who remain to be seen still in the shadows with respect to the trump federal indictment in d.c. >> do you think that -- so you suggest the jack smith case continues. he's building it out. we're going to see more of this. i think there's a lot of people who say what is the timetable

for that? how much longer can and should this go on? right, if the states -- is it a hot potato? the passing of potential indictments from the states to the feds and back again. at one point we're talking about the 2020 election and the 2024 election coming up. i think a lot of people think there needs to be accountability before 2024 where donald trump is if he's running and not in jail is almost certain to say i won the election and there cannot be the same state level plot to overthrow democracy if he loses. >> let's take those things apart because the indictment against trump, i personally don't think that indictment will become an indictment against other people. when jack smith proposed a trial date of january 2nd you and i can laugh about that and say it's never going to happen, but to me it indicates they don't intend to super seed with face that indictment with more charges and more people. i think to the extent jack smith's team continues to investigate and show that they are, that's going to be a separate charging instrument. they'll proceed on one track

against donald trump and on other tracks against other people who may become defendants in that investigation in d.c. federal courts. >> everyone has their work cut out for them all over the place in all these states. >> you and me both. >> yeah, and us, too. thank you for your time, my friend. appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. still ahead tonight donald trump's plans for complete exoneration. in the fulton county rico case, but first disgraced rapper yea, his former publicist indicted last night. why was a representative of far-right rapper trying to subvert the will of atlanta's voters? that is next. e will of atlanta' voters that is next

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the latest trump indictment centers on some of the real people who are victims of trump's alleged pressure campaign around the 2020 election, people like ruby freeman and shaye moss who serve as poll workers in fulton county. trump subjected them to an unyielding campaign of harassment and the racist undercurrent on that was not subtle. this was shaye moss testifying to the january 6th committee last year. >> were a lot of these threats and vile comments racist in nature? >> a lot of them were racist. a lot of them were just hateful,

wishing death upon me, telling me that, you know, i'll be in jail with my mother and saying things like be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> trump's allies also allegedly tried to coerce freeman and moss into confessing to crimes they never committed. just weeks after the 2020 election a mysterious white man showed up and began banging on ms. freeman's door. ms. freeman didn't recognize the man and so she turned him away and called police who then spoke to this man outside her home. >> hey, what's going on? >> i'm a pastor and also working with some folks trying to help ruby out. i want to let her know i've got some pro bono service for her. >> that strange man who was offering pro bono services was a

man named stephen cliffguard lee. he was one of the people indicted last night by fani willis. this is what the indictment says about him. he solicited harrison floyd, an individual associated with the organization black voices for trump to assist with his effort to speak to ruby freeman. stephen glyphgard lee stated to floyd ms. freeman was scared to talk to lee because he was a white man. mr. floyd then tried to call ruby freeman, he tried several times but he was unsuccessful, so in turn recruited someone else, a black publicist for the trump supporting nazi apologist and artist kanye west, who now goes by the name yea.

it should be said that donald trump has repeatedly used yea as a supportive plaque fice to bolster his own extreme incendiary politics. and yea has drifted further and further to the right openly embracing nazism, anti-black rhetoric or donald trump. he showed up at ruby freeman's door saying she was sent by a high profile individual and urging ms. freeman to confess to trump's baseless allegations of voter fraud or people would come to ms. freeman's home in 48 hours and put her in jail. but ruby freeman was not having it. she called the police once again and an officer took freeman and kuti to a police precinct where body footage seemed to capture

ms. kuti seeming to threaten ms. freeman. i cannot say what will specifically take place, i just know that it will disrupt your freedom and the freedom of one or more of your family members. now they they're one of 19 individuals charged. this is the first time we're seeing charges for people who directly orchestrated trump's campaign harassment of the two black poll workers. and it is justice for the two black women whose lives were up ended. today trump signaled just how he plans to respond to this latest indictment, and we're going to have more on that right after the break. d we're going to have more on that right after the break. power on-the-go. so you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are! recharge quickly with any usb port.

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former president donald trump was up early this morning to share his reaction to fulton county's 98-page, 41-count indictment. large, complex, detailed but irrefusible report on election fraud which took place in georgia is almost kpleetd and will be presented by me at a major news conference at 11 a.m. next week in bedminster, new jersey. based on this conclusive report all charges should be dropped against me and others. there will be a complete exoneration. if you like me are wondering just how conclusive this rrt

willby it is worth remembering donald trump has done this before. he offered a 12-page report that he claimed offered proof of election cheating. the report was something of a hits peppered with pejoratives about the january 6th committee it's revealing what it says not about the election but what it says about trump. he demonstrates no ability to discern fact from fiction about the election results but also shows no interest in trying to draw such a distinction. joining me now to discuss this is david plouffe, former advisor for president obama. we're given a full illustration. can you contrast that as allegedly and apparently illegal

as that was, there were a lot of people involved on it -- in it. and now you have the president, the former president tweeting out these announcements for press conferences at his golf club and these so far clownish reports that he thinks are going to completely exonerate him, and it's such a study unhow much trump has lost the support and sort of wisdom or at least the strategy of the inner circle he once had. they're all indicted now, david, and what has that left him with? i found this announcement today shockingly embarrassing. >> yeah, well, alex, it's an insult to brain trusts. but even that group has been splintered. and trump has largely been all tactics, no strategy.

this, again is probably not serving the word tactic well. he that it's it all as a game and he's now been indicted four times just in recent months a racketeering charge no matter the subject is never a laughing matter. my sense is you can tell by the reaction he understands this is the most serious today which is saying something. i think the one thing that could change that is if we begin to get more sense this is hurting the general election voters, but even if that doesn't happen before january or february when primaries and caucuses happen, you know, it's hard to believe there's a single voter out there more likely to vote for trump, a swing voter. and where this will probably hurt him the most is georgia, a battleground state. that to me is maybe the most from a political standpoint the

most interesting thing to watch is where this happened where the alleged crimes occur, where this is going to get a lot of coverage. even if that hurts him a half percent or a percent like it hurts him in wisconsin or arizona, it could be a decisive set of voters in the next election. >> that's such a good point especially when you think about the fact the michigan a.g. is bringing charges against the fake electors. there could be actions in arizona. who knows what happens in arizona and wisconsin. those states really matter if you're trying to win the presidency. do you think it's incumbent on the a.g. to pursue those fake elector plots? >> not based on where the states are but based on what happened. what's sad is there's 40% of it country maybe even 45% who think there's a concerted effort to basically circumvent the will of the voters and leave someone in

office like what happened in autocratic countries isn't okay. but those of us who believe there's nothing more sacred in this country than a peaceful transfer of power, have to follow this wherever it goes. and, yeah, i think it's true this was not the most skillful band of traders in global history. but the more we learn, the more we see how coordinated it was. and the thing that should scare us all clearly he doesn't think he did anything wrong, and a lot of people around him doesn't think he did anything wrong. that's why it's important he be held to account. and i think one of the important things about georgia is so many other people part of this conspiracy also have been indicted. >> to the georgia case i wonder what you make of this "the washington post" analysis this morning effectively saying the case d.a. willis has brought is ovly broad and that could

ultimately help trump. this is a quote from the piece. if jurors do eventually balk at the breadth of the charges in georgia, that could turn public opinion in trump's favor. i think overreach probably hurts the credibility of the rest of the cases. do you think there's any merit in that? >> i don't. and listen, i believe that our law enforcement officialed should pursue wrongdoing irregardless of politics or pr. at the end of the day we have trump on tape. we have so many of his allies including some in the white house including chief of staff actively engage and threaten election officials and engage to overturn election results. if we think it's all a game and that's not okay in america that's one thing. but if we believe at the end of the day this was a traitorous

set of tactics to destroy democracy you've to follow those facts and those leads and that evidence where it leads. i disagree with that very profoundly. >> it is really a stress test for democracy is what this feels like. thank you so much for your time tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. a federal court should enter an order enjoining all of these cases until the election is over because they are clearly now not cases. they're not even crimes. this is the first amendment. it's free speech. it's my acting as a lawyer. i have a right to argue for my client. i even have the right to exaggerate to my client. i have a basis for everything i said. half of what they wrote about me is false and they know it. this should all be put off until after the election. >> rudgi