at alicia on msnbc. i will see you here tomorrow for more american voices. but for now i handed over to my friend and colleague, ayman mohyeldin. ayman, it's hot, baby! >> it's hot! i made the mistake of walking to work today. -- i was not wearing the shirt that i'm wearing now, i can tell you that for sure. i got to ask you, though michael steele, i have two parts for you, i was fascinated -- and look, you and i follow politics overseas. and in a parliamentary system, you can get opposition and figures to rally around a figure to oust donald trump. and iron sand why the republican party, look, i'm not a math guy, i'm a simpleton at politics, but if 35% of the base likes donald trump, that means 65% would prefer somebody else. why can't they agree, why can't they get together and say hey, let's all feel the candidate that we can think can go up

against donald trump and get rid of this nightmare? >> dude, i've been preaching it for the last six or eight months. i don't know why the party doesn't corral around one of these individuals on the stage to just say, this is the horse that's going to ride us to a brave new world. and they just can't. because that base, small though it is, he's outsized in the money it produces, and the power it wields. and that, even in a parliamentary system, can overwhelm the system sometimes. >> yeah, i was going to say, just look what happened to will hurd. as you said, booed there just for speaking truth to power. on a personal note, michael, i just want to say that it's the first time i've seen you in person. thank you so much for filling in for me a couple of weeks ago, i really appreciate it. the time off -- i owe you one, my friend. >> no pleasure, no pleasure. that just took a cold brew -- >> you've got it. next time i see -- >> a pint -- >> consider it done. good evening and welcome to ayman. the case against donald trump

-- for the next two hours we are going to break down the important legal developments this week, including that superseding indictment against the ex president and it's nixonian echoes. we're going to explore the election interference case and how close jack smith's to another trump indictment. and then we're gonna head down to georgia as fulton county d. a. fani willis begins a critical period in her investigation into trump's potential criminality. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ we want to start tonight's show by looking back for a moment. back to july 27th 1974, which was an inflection point in our country's history. it was on that day the house judiciary committee recommended that america's 37th president, richard nixon, be impeached and removed from office. six republicans joined 21 democrats in sending that first article of impeachment against the president, which accused

him of obstructing justice to the full house. and now, 49 years later, to the day, another former president has found himself accused of the very same charge again. on thursday, donald trump was hit with new counts in special counsel jack smith's classified documents case. in a bombshell superseding indictment, the ex president was charged with an additional count of willful retention of national defense information, and two new counts of obstruction. so with these new charges, trump now faces a staggering total of 40 criminal counts in that case, the most serious of which could land him in prison for up to 20 years. now, in that superseding indictment, prosecutors have accused trump, along with his coconspirator walt nauta, and a new third defendant carlos de oliveira, a mar-a-lago maintenance worker attempting to delete surveillance video from the resort. coincidently, just after trump's lawyers received the

grand jury subpoena requests for that footage. according to the indictment, on june 27th 2022, after some phone tag between trump, nauta, and de oliveira walked to the i. t. office at mar-a-lago and requested that he and an unnamed trump employee, the works resorts director of i.t., could talk. well, the two men then went inside a closet and that's when carlos de oliveira told the employee that the conversation should, quote, remain between the two of them and carlos olivia then asked the employee than how long the -- a believed it was approximately 45 days, give or take. and then in a move, honestly, straight out of a monster movie, carlos olivia told the employee that the boss wanted the server deleted. the employee raised concerns

that he would not know how to do that, and that he did not believe that he would have the rights to do so, and carlos de oliveira repeated that quote, the boss wanted the server deleted. and asked, what are we going to do? >> now, it's still not entirely clear what happened after that conversation, and honestly, even if the footage was ultimately deleted. but with this indictment, the federal government has now accused donald trump, a former president, of seeking to destroy it possibly incriminating evidence against him. which brings us back to that nixon comparison, because nixon was only just accused in fact, he was also accused of destroying evidence as part of that cover-up during the watergate scandal. and during that investigation, it was discovered that nixon had a habit of reporting conversations in the white house, and those recordings were later subpoenaed by a special prosecutor, after which investigators noticed an 18 and a half minute gap in one of

those tapes. now, while nixon's personal secretary claimed to have accidentally a raced the missing minutes, which are believed to contain a conversation between nixon and his chief of staff just three days after the watergate break in. many suspected it was the president himself who ordered its destruction. but that's where trump's parallel to the other disgraced ex president ends, because on august 8th 1974, just 12 days after the house recommended those first articles of impeachment, richard nixon faced with the overwhelming evidence against him and eroding support within his own party, he resigned. down trump isn't ready to give up. he's not going anywhere. here he is just yesterday, doubling down on his commitment to retake the white house, no matter what may stand in his way. >> if, going forward, you get these indictments, their heads

up, you've got a jury in d.c., you get convicted and sentenced, does that stop your campaign for president? if you're sentenced? >> not at all. there's nothing in the constitution to say that it could. and even the radical left crazies who say -- and it wouldn't stop me either. >> not at all. now, as more details continue to emerge about the sheer scope of donald trump's alleged criminality and the possible cover-up that followed, it is becoming clear that he is in a lead of his own. donald trump isn't just another richard nixon, he's nixon on steroids. let's bring in my panel, renato mariotti, a former federal prosecutor and legal affairs columnist at politico, but charles blow and michelle goldberg we, with a columnist for the new york times. and both are msnbc political analysts. it's great to have you with us. renato, let me start with just the basics of what we saw this week.

how common or superseding indictments, and what are these new charges if anything, as well as the addition of this third defendant? tell us about the scope of of jack smith's case here, and if it is, and what direction, it is expanding? >> well, they are not uncommon. i think most -- don't have -- i think what it says, first of all, jack smith is continuing his investigation. and he's made a determination, ayman. he wants to have -- donald trump. even if it means that he's not going to race to the finish line, even if it might cause a little bit of a delay, once have the strongest possible case. what did he add here? a number of things. first of all, account involving the actual document that trump was waving around. trump claimed, oh, it was a newspaper, it was just bravado, it wasn't really a classified document. now they have that document. they're charging that document.

and then he's included this obstruction conspiracy involving the destruction of evidence. very powerful evidence and, frankly, a very powerful count that, we listlessly the jury, i think, is going to have a lot of trouble excusing, a lot of trouble ignoring. you could say whatever you want about the presidential records act or about declassification, the bottom line is destroying evidence, that's the sort of thing that the average person could get their head around. so that's really important, and then there's also the dynamic between these two defendants now, these two minor defendants. are they going to try to flip against -- who's going to flip first? is one going to flip against trump? are they both going to flip? there's a dynamic now where walt nauta, he can't just be assured of the fact that he is going to be the lone man in the turn bowl at trial. now you have to potential employees, and neither of them know what the other might do. >> charles, let's talk about that point that renato brought up about how this undercuts

trump's own defense, if you will, more or less. it's not quite the behavior you'd expect from someone who is acting lawfully. not just in a sense of trying to destroy evidence, but he's also been making the case that he had a right to these documents, and yet here he is trying to get rid of the evidence that he has those documents, allegedly. >> the thing that i'm most interested in here is what evidence the special counsel has beyond a competing eyewitness. if there is nothing on paper, on tape, if they're meeting by the bushes and in closets and the only evidence you're going to have is a testimony of one person, you're going to have three defendants, all of whom are saying together that we didn't do this, what this person saying. so if one person has testimony gets others, that's not as strong as i would like to see.

coming into -- from an indictment. but that may be what they have. the second thing is my understanding, and i could be wrong, but my understanding is the trump universe is also paying for this third defendants defense. and that makes it less likely that there will be some flipping among the other defendants on trump. so, the problem here is the structures around our legal system and our political system just cannot quite catch up to the novelty of donald trump. the nixon example falls flat a little bit, because nixon had a sense of history and a sense of the country where he wanted to kind of shield it from more damage. trump doesn't have that. he doesn't care if we -- destroy the whole thing -- >> so let me just go back to your point, which is, and let me play devils advocate here for a second, given the gravity

of the moment that jack smith must be aware of, would he bring an indictment against a former president if he did not have substantial evidence of beyond just simply hearsay of a witness? don't you think he would probably have, perhaps, a text message saying hey, the boss wants this deleted on somebody's phone that he was able to recover? as opposed to just simply saying hey, i have a witness who saying the boss told him to delete it. i get your point, but i suspect that jack smith, knowing what has happened in the past with donald trump, realizing the severity of the moment and these superseding indictments, is probably not coming to bring these charges forward without substantial evidence. >> one assumes, but we only know what's in the indictment. so in the indictment he does not disclose that. he simply says conversations that he records in the indictment are person-to-person conversations. he never mentions anything in text message. we would hope that he has that, but i'm just saying what we know, we don't know that. >> michelle, the charges

against de oliveira include him lying to investigators. does that sent a warning signal to potentially other witnesses? could the chance of facing an indictment themselves boost the possibility of a cooperation, going back to renato earlier point which is that could there be other people out there that are flipping against these two men, or perhaps getting these two men to flip against the former president? >> as a non lawyer, it seems pretty obvious to me that some other people already have flipped. you have all of these accounts of conversations with various other people at mar-a-lago, conversations, the boss wants me to do this. presumably someone is giving that to jack smith, unless he has it recorded or, as charles said, in text messages. there clearly are people cooperating, and although de oliveira is in a difficult because, as charles mentioned

-- really worth going to prison for donald trump. and i think he could look at the history of other people involved with donald trump, gotten involved with donald trump, and see that very often, even if donald trump -- the people around him are not. and it's just another lesson here, is don't work for donald trump. from that kind of most low level person to the vice president, there is nobody who comes out unscathed from their association with this person. >> andrew goldstein, renato, you may recall he's the lead investigator for the bob mueller obstruction investigation. he told in your signs, quote, demanding that islands be destroyed is the most basic form of obstruction and it is easy for a jury to understand. he also said that what's described in this indictment is actually more quote, straightforwardly criminal, then the obstructive act detailed in the mueller report. based on what you've seen, do you agree?

how does evidence like this play in front of a jury? what would be your threshold to convince a jury that an obstruction request, or destruction of evidence request, did in fact take place? is it simple to say hearsay is going to be enough to convince jurors? >> well, first of all, great question. agree with that assessment, by the way. and the reason why i agree with that is the obstructive act that were discussed in the mueller report were for example, trying to fire mueller himself. trying to use pardons to influence testimony. trying to fire the fbi director. all of those sorts of activities are more complicated, and the juror might view that is more political. destroying evidence, that is, like goldstein, said that's very straightforwardly criminal. it's a sort of thing that jurors are used to understanding, they're used to seeing that, they've probably seen that on tv and movies. and i think that when we look at all these counts, i

appreciate charles. point. i think he's right that jurors will look at each count separately and they're going to look at the evidence and see if there's more than hearsay. but you cannot actually, if you're really trying a case, look at these counts separately. we have to remember that this evidence is going to come into a trial where the jurors are going to see overwhelming evidence that trump really, really, really wanted these documents. he wanted them very badly, and his lawyers were telling him that he had to return them to the government, and essentially, all of this obstructive activity was an end run around those lawyers. and so i think all of that in combination along with that reporting, i think it makes a very strong case. i actually think that jack smith, the mar-a-lago case really stands alone as the most straightforward easily prove-able case of all the cases that are arraigned against donald trump, in my opinion. >> charles, we may be discussing this among ourselves,

the similarities and the comparisons between trump and nixon and whether they are like and where they are not, but the truth is trump seems to take pride in these comparisons to nixon. just today he shared this letter from his pen pal back from the 80s, in which nixon predicted trump would one day win the presidency. why does trump continue to idolize a man who resigned in disgrace and is arguably one of the worst, if not the worst president in modern american politics? >> because donald trump idolizes outlaws. and we should never forget that. that's not just in america, that's around the globe. the people, the letters that he saves, the ones that he brags about, they're all outlaws and dictators. and so the idea of him living outside the bounds of what is a normal is where he has always lived and where he lives and now. and that is the comparison. i would make one last point though. i would be very interested to know if jack smith, if they

were not able to delete footage, if jack smith has any footage of people going near -- bush's or closets -- because it's totally going to bolster the case, even walking together on the days that are described. that kind of thing i think is what -- that kind of evidence to bolster if there is only hearsay. >> yeah. >> that bolsters that argument. >> michelle goldberg, let me ask renato very quickly. when we find out what evidence that jack smith has? is it during the trial or is it beforehand in any of the proceedings whether we will know if he has recordings or text messages or this footage? >> there will be motion practice. so there is going to be -- for example, that fence is probably going to ask for all kinds of classified information to try to delay things. but there's also going to be motions going back and forth, for example, whether or not there's sufficient evidence of a conspiracy to last statements to come. and there will be, i'm sure, motions to exclude evidence by the defense. so i think in those motions

over time we have going to learn more and more the motions and responses, what the evidence jack smith has, and then, of course, as you point out, in the eve of trial, with an exhibit list, a witness list, and then we will, i think, have a better sense of things. but that understanding is going to evolve in the months ahead. >> michelle, sorry for jumping out of turn but i do want to come back to you. about the politics of this for a moment, because you have several republicans as we have noted and staying on the nixon comparison here for a moment -- they actually supported the impeachment efforts against nixon and he resigned. in part due to the eroding support that he had within his own party. and even if they didn't do it on capitol hill, we know that people went to the white house and said look, the game is up. you've got to go it's, done. why is the modern-day republican party so reluctant to turn on trump, and when they do, they become cowards and go right back into his lap? >> in certain ways donald trump is the republican party's revenge for nixon -- it could have been roger ailes, although it could be wrong, he said that, if fox news had

existed back then, nixon never would have resigned. >> right. >> and so i think you have -- back when nixon resigned, you had kind of one information system, you had not one -- you know, not completely -- but widely shared notion of reality. -- and so there was a kind of a mainstream. it was possible to run afoul of the mainstream political consensus. and there just isn't any more. i just think, so often with donald trump, we are in this kind of mirror world. and his followers and supporters are there with him. so that there is no shame for, example. he ran in 2016 ranting about hillary clinton wiping servers. >> right. >> and now has been indicted for the exact same thing. it was so interesting. on friday, we were all expecting a january 6th indictment, and then this -- came down and it was sort of an anticlimax. but only donald trump could be

an anticlimax that is just another charge charge. >> yeah, exactly. >> nevertheless, i just think that he -- he and the republican party in general have created such a hermetically sealed alternative reality that he's able to project all his own crimes and misdeeds onto his enemies. >> i actually agree with, you michelle, and i would say even more than just the republican party. he's normalized criminality to a point that people, like you said, when they see that it's another indictment about holding national security documents and it's not january six, everybody is like, oh, it's not as climactic as anyone thought it would be. but we'll see. charles blow, and michelle goldberg, thank you both very much. renato mariotti, please stick around. -- we are going to continue this conversation and discuss the looming indictment in the election interference case with democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren, a former member of the january 6th select committee. stay with us. wayfair has nice prices, so you can have nice things. um kelly? we have champagne taste...

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donald trump and his aides make it very likely that current may 2024 trial date will be pushed back. as nbc news senior correspondent, legal correspondent laura jarrett, reports the destruction of video evidence means more discovery for prosecutors, which means more opportunities to file motions to delay. meaning accountability, at least in this instance, could actually come later than expected. joining me now is democratic congresswoman could zoe lofgren of california.

of course, she served on the january 6th house select committee. congressman congresswoman, it's great to see. thanks for coming back on the show. let me just get your reaction to these new charges in the superseding indictment. obviously you've been behind the scenes investigating trump's actions, leading up to january 6th. was there anything that surprised you as you saw the news come out this week? >> well, i guess a lot of us were expecting a january 6th indictment based on the target letter timing. but honestly, i was shocked by the new charges, the superseding indictment now on the documents case. i was just a staffer when the nixon impeachment was going on, but it's the cover-up -- that gets you. and these allegations and the indictment are very serious. if proven, i think the ex president is in serious legal jeopardy. >> so let me ask you about that,

because as you just mentioned and as we talked about, there's a lot of similarities between nixon and trump. you actually worked, as you just mentioned, on the nixon impeachment as a law student in 1974, then on congressman don edwards staff, and then you also worked on trump's impeachments. both of them, i should note. how did these two moments in history compared? what did you learn from working on nixon's impeachment that you are able to bring to trump's? >> well, it's interesting because what i learned was really more about the republican party then the president who got themselves in trouble. when the truth came out about nixon, it was irrefutable. republican members of the house and senate were shocked, they were ashamed, and they went to the president and said your support is gone. you've got to leave. what's happening now, the current republican party leadership at least and even those members who don't agree don't speak up.

there is no shame. the truth is just -- dispensed with, lies are just a strategy. it's a very different approach to the world and a very different sense of honor than was the case when nixon was in trouble and his impeachment out of the judiciary committee. >> to your point earlier, i think a lot of people were expecting this week's announcement to include an indictment on january the 6th, and it's very possible it might have been given the target letter, a possible indictment in the alex presidents attempt to overturn the 2020 election. we're waiting to see what happens in georgia. with fani willis, the dea da there -- expand on that and what happens if there is no accountability for trying to overturn the

election. >> well, essentially, trump tried to overturn the constitution. richard nixon corruptly use instruments of the government, but he wasn't on a mission to overturn the constitution itself. that's what trump tried to do, and it's worth noting, he has said that he intends if he is reelected to terminate aspects of the constitution. which is a stunning statement, and i've learned as we went into this investigation, to pay attention to what trump says. because it's what he intends to do. he intends to -- he said, terminate parts of the constitution. and he's been very overt about taking to the presidency authorities that don't belong to that branch of government. really, it's a very ominous set of predictions that he's making,

should he be elected. i think we ought to pay-elect attention to it, i think he means what he says. >> let me ask you about what we played earlier in the. show i'm not sure if you heard it. but it was on trump an interview saying he is now going to stop no matter what happens on the legal front. and i'm curious to get your thoughts on where this may be going in terms of what accountability and what justice looks like. in this piece that you wrote for msnbc. com, you write about how the january sixth committees work may be one of the most significant in american history. noting that you and your fellow congress members may have very well pressured the justice department to take action. and in your view, what would it look like for trump to finally face justice? >> well, i do think it's important that it's not just the foot soldiers that are brought to justice. i mean, the department of justice has indicted and convicted a whole number,

hundreds of individuals who rioted and who attacked the police and the like. but until this target letter, there wasn't a strong indication that the inciter in chief, the plotters, we're actually going to be held to account. not just those who they incited. i think that's important. there needs to be accountability at all levels, not just the people who did the violence at his behest. i do you think his comment that he would run for president from prison is an astonishing one. and really, it shows the difference between the parties, i mean, the republican party's conservative, or it used to be. but it was a conservative party that had a sense of honor, just like the democrats had a sense of honor. that appears to be gone now. and his threats are, i think, pretty shocking. and the fact that he's continuing to lie to his

supporters and that many of them don't have a source of actual news, and they buy it, is ominous as well. a lot of innocent people were harmed in january 6th. people who believed him, and that's happening again. >> yes. and to michelle goldberg's earlier point, he has managed to seal off the republican party from reality. and that's where we find ourselves today, a party that just doesn't believe in reality. congresswoman zoe lofgren, it's always a pleasure. thank you for your time and your insights. >> thank you. have a great -- >> thank, you too. after the break, how these new details fit into the bigger picture. a timeline of the classified documents case, and how the allegations in the superseding indictment give us a clearer picture of the ex presidents potential criminality. ♪♪

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new layer to the timeline of events in the classified documents case. so, to understand the full extent of the ex presidents alleged criminality, let's go back to the beginning and look at that closely. at 12:00 pm on january 2021, donald trump ceases to become president. as he departs the white house, he has scores of boxes, many of which contains classified materials, are transported to mar-a-lago. on may 6th of that year, representatives from the national archives notify former trump white house lawyers of missing presidential records and continue to ask for the documents for months on end. in july of 2021, trump meets with a writer, a publisher, two members of his staff, none of whom possess security clearances. at his bedminster golf club, he proceeds to share materials he describes as quote, highly confidential in audio recordings. and he goes on to say, quote, as president, i could have declassified it, now i can't.

in the superseding indictment, trump is charged with a new count of willfully retaining national defense information over the document described in that recording. in december 2021, a trump representatives informs the national archives they located more than a dozen documents at a. mar-a-lago facility and the agency arranges for those documents to be returned to washington. the national archives alerts the doj and the house oversight committee in february 2022 that the documents marked as classified were discovered in the returned boxes. in april of 2022, the national archives informs a trump representative of its intent to share records with the fbi. on may 11th, trump receives a federal grand jury subpoena, seeking any classified material in his possession. on june 3rd 2022, the doj's counterintelligence chief and three fbi agents visit mar-a-lago to retrieve a folder

containing 38 more classified documents. they also tour one of the clubs storage rooms, but aren't allowed to search boxes inside. and here is where we learn a ton of new information from this superseding indictment. on june 22nd, 2022, doj since trump a second grand jury subpoena, this time for mar-a-lago surveillance footage. the next day trump calls mar-a-lago -- calls the maintenance manager there, carlos de oliveira, at 8:46 pm -- walt nauta travels from bedminster, new jersey, where he and carlos de oliveira observe a security guard booth where security footage is displayed, and take note of the cameras in the tunnel we are trump's story from is located. two days after that, de oliveira, because with

mar-a-lago's i.t. employee -- tavares and tells him, quote, the boss wants the surveillance server deleted. and later that afternoon, trump calls de oliveira, and the to speak for approximately three and a half minutes, and it's these actions that result in most of the rest of the charges that are laid out in the superseding indictment. that trump allegedly worked with his employees to try to delete security footage from being reviewed by investigators. and in early august of 2022, the doj seeks a warrant to search mar-a-lago, and once again granted fbi agents conduct a search of mar-a-lago, removing 27 boxes and several other document collections containing 11 sets of classified material. on november 18th 2022, attorney general merrick garland announces jack smith will serve as a special counsel to lead the classified documents probe. fast forward to june 8th of this year, smith's federal

grand jury indict trump, charging him with 37 counts on seven different charges, including willful retention of national defense information, withholding records, false statements, and conspiracy to obstruct. june 13th, trump is arraigned in miami, pleads not guilty, walt nauta faces six charges, five of which were also launched lodged against trump. he pleads not guilty in a later hearing. and then just a week ago, judge aileen cannon sets a trial date, may 20th 2024, which as we just discussed, it might change with his superseding indictment. we don't know. and with carlos de oliveira set to be arraigned tomorrow, and trials for trump and nauta now in the future, one thing is certain. this timeline is far from over. after the break, we turn to georgia and a new indication that fulton county district attorney fani willis is set to indict donald trump. stay with us.

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were set up outside george's fulton county courthouse. in the first visible sign of extra security before the expected indictment of donald trump next month. in a statement, the fulton county sheriff's office said that it is coordinating with local state and federal law enforcement to ramp up security ahead of a quote, high profile legal proceeding. concurrently, district attorney fani willis, who's investigating the efforts of trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election results, announced earlier this year that her staff would begin a remote work period during the first three weeks of august. that period, well, it starts monday. it has been speculated that this remote work session is the likeliest time during which willis will announce charging decisions in the election -- renato mariotti is back with me, and also here with me is greg

bluestein, a reporter for the atlanta journal-constitution. greg, you are in atlanta. -- and at the same time a judge has scheduled a hearing for august 10th on a trump motion to disqualify fani willis from prosecution, or prosecuting in this case. reuters charges are expected to be delivered. is the fulton county courthouse going to be in complete chaos the next month? >> you know, we don't know if it will be complete chaos, but we know that law enforcement officials are preparing for such. and you see those barricades go up. you just mentioned that a.d.a. adas and -- i'm getting messages from some of them. there are -- >> is that a common thing? can i just ask you really quickly about that work from home think? maybe that will give us a clue. is it something that happens early around this time of year? no?

okay. >> no, this is not common at all. and this is being seen as a ramp up. we're still expecting this indictment within weeks, not days. we're not expecting it very imminently, but we're expecting it over the next couple of weeks. >> that's a very good point, and i think that's why a lot of people who just may not be familiar with how things are done down there would be like, well, maybe it's a post covid new normalcy if he will, but it's good to know that it is not. renato, speaking of this work from home period for most staffers, which begins on monday, as a former federal prosecutor, what are your thoughts on the significance of this decision by the da, to keep our staff away from the courthouse, i presume, for safety reasons. if trump is going to be charged in this case, what kind of response do you think we can expect from his allies as well as residents in the area? >> obviously donald trump is a person who encourages supporters to march on the capital, culminating in a violent attack that left people

-- dead. we also, of course, have even recent threats on the january six attorneys who is making threats -- the -- justice department i think you can ever be too careful. when i was a federal prosecutor i face some serious threats and -- protective custody for a period of time, not -- former president ins and his supporters -- but nonetheless i think she is being prudent by taking this up. it really suggests, all the signs point towards an indictment in the upcoming weeks. and frankly, i don't think anyone's going to be surprised by that. it's not like the special grand jury foreperson exactly had a poker face. >> right. >> so i think we are expecting this to be one of the upcoming indictments, and i guess the question is, is it indictment number three or indictment number four? >> right. that's a good point. let me ask you about rudy giuliani, if we can talk about him for a moment. earlier this week, he made

quite a startling admission that he made false remarks about two georgia election workers mishandling ballots in 2020. michael cohen says his former boss is likely squirming over the news. here he is speaking to my colleague katie phang on the beat earlier this week. watch. >> right now, i can assure you that he's panicking, he's panicking inside. he'll never allow the public see because he likes to give the appearance of strength. and you know, be the victim, which is what he's going to continue to play. >> renato, what are the implications of this giuliani concession or confession if you will, for donald trump? >> obviously, what it means is that giuliani is going to have a lot of trouble maintaining that lie on the witness stand. just so everyone remembers, these are the lies. who's almost a conspiracy theory that was, i would say -- i don't know if it was hatched by giuliani, but it was

certainly -- by giuliani against these election workers, basically suggesting that they were engaging in some sort of election fraud, destruction of ballots, or removing ballots, changing ballots. obviously, that was investigated. that turned out to be false. there were some attention paid to the january six committee to this. i believe one of the women in question actually was there, and present at the hearings. what i would just say is that ultimately, at the end of the day, a lot of the -- for trump in the georgia case is going to come down to his supposedly genuine belief regarding the fact that he supposedly -- based on what giuliani told him. obviously, this significantly undercuts that. >> you know, greg, in his court filing earlier this week, giuliani said that he made statements that, quote, carry meeting that is defamatory per se, were defamatory per se, but

he also argued that his comments are protected by the first amendment. do you think he's argument holds weight? >> you know, legal analyst -- will have to answer that one, but i know the toll that this has exasperated on ruby freeman and shaye moss. -- it almost ruined their lives. they received death threats. they went into hiding. they can do mundane things like go to the grocery store without fearing for the very lives. this put a face on the donald trump conspiracy theories, and election fraud lies, in a really visceral way. and by the way, when giuliani was saying that they were passing a usb card full of fraudulent votes, you know what they were passing? it was a ginger mint. so it really brought it home to a lot of folks. >> many of these things we don't even think about having real life consequences when people are just spreading these conspiracy theories. but as you mentioned, greg, they have real life consequences. greg bluestein, and renato

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aides knowingly destroyed evidence. people who have nothing to hide don't smash phones with hammers. they don't. hillary bleached and deleted 33, 000 emails after congressional subpoenas. she illegally destroyed 33, 000 emails. the thing that you should be apologizing for on the 33, 000 emails that you deleted. >> now check out this new passage from the new charges special counsel jack smith brought against donald trump. aide walt nauta and the newly charged defended carlos de oliveira. it is over an alleged scheme to delete security camera footage after the justice department had said donald trump's lawyers -- draft -- carlos de oliveira -- and dull olivia carlos de oliveira -- one of the server delighted and asked, what are we going to do? the no indictment explicitly

accused trump of attempting to destroy surveillance -- sought by federal investigators. so, using trump's own logic from 2016 that the presidential candidate accused of scheming to destroy evidence and obstruct an investigation shouldn't be allowed to run for president, trump has no choice. drop out. watch this space. stick around. the second hour of ayman begins right after this. right after this. lways say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ ♪

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