documents. where a judge could decide whether that trial happens before or after the 2024 presidential election. the former president's aide and codefendant just arrived at the courthouse. we're there live. plus, we've confirmed with two federal law enforcement sources that special counsel jack smith has notified donald trump he's a target in the 2020 election interference probe. is another federal indictment against the former president on its way? our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments and we start in florida where the first pretrial hearing in the classified documents is set to get under way. nbc's julia ansley is following that for us, julia, what's the latest? >> reporter: well, chris, we expect now, it's 2:00 p.m., that pretrial date for the hearing, we expect jack smith and the defense going in before judge

aileen cannon to discuss two thing that are critical for the progression of the trial. one is the start date. we that you understand jack smith's team, the special counsel, wants the trial to begin on december 11th. they've laid out the schedule they want to keep to. but trump's team wants to delay the trial indefinitely, postpone it in the election. of course, that means if former president trump is re-elected president, he could weigh in on his own fate in the trial. a lot riding there. the other piece that's being discussed does classified documents, that's the heart of the entire investigationer the heart of the trial, how trump handled those documents but prosecutors have said they want to limit how much walt nauta, the codefendant, and trump can actually see of the documents. and that they'll have to present to a jury to show information was deeply sensitive to u.s. national security. but also not present them with so much information that they would then be exposing those secrets to the jury. chris. >> julia ansley, thank you for

that. let's go to laura jarrett for the very latest on that letter from president trump to jack smith, the special counsel, saying he's the target of this probe. what more do we know about the letter, laura, and what are the implications here? >> chris, the upshot means the investigation is nearing conclusion. this is the type of thing you'd see at the end as an invitation when the former president is coming in and not expected that he would do so. as he said on his social media platform, he would give four days to come in which means he actually hasn't been indicted yesterday. and we don't know what if any charges he would actually be facing. we call it the january 6 investigation. okay just, it's much more sprawling than that. quite broad. it really involves his efforts to cling to power and to overturn the 2020 election. we will see, what if anything, comes of this.

you should no, we tried to confirm all day if anyone else received a target investigation. it's not been confirmed if anyone else has received such a letter. >> laura jarrett, thank you. plank faluci. frank, you heard about laura's reporting on jack smith, do you agree where this tells us where the probe stands now, how quickly you might find it on this letter saying donald trump is a target? >> sure. look, we're days away, likely, of the indictment of a former president, the letter purportly says he's got in this week to get in, make his case, meet with prosecutors. and likely, if he doesn't, we're looking at an indictment. the mystery, of course, is what the charges might be. but not much of a mystery there.

actually even today, trump has posted on his social media something about a reference to obstruction. if that's linked to the target letter, it might be that he's been advised that he's looking at impeding or obstructing congress. that could imply at least two ways, one of physical violence of breaching the capitolful prosecutors could cross that rough hurdle showing that he knew about it or encouraged it. or more likely, the obstruction of congress to stop the certification through an alternate set of electors and pressuring pence and others. but we'll see where that goes. but my overall thought here is this, it's important note on any given day, 90% or more of all federal criminal charges result in a plea deal. why is that. it's because the u.s. government's not in the habit of bringing leaked or frivolous charges with weak or no evidence.

they plead out, most defendants, i'm not implying at all that trump will do that, seems to relish the idea of indictment and prosecution. but rather, the case would not be brought unless it is nailed down solid. and the fbi and other agencies surveil, wiretap, develop informants get paper evidence. and only then does the prosecution move forward. the government would rather ditch a case than lose a case. so smith is bringing serious charges with serious evidence. >> so, that's such an interesting point, charles, weak and frivolous is not something that they do anyway. >> right. >> but when you're talking about a former president of the united states who is currently, by far, the front-runner for the republican nomination for president of the united states, it is so far beyond weak and frivolous. i think one of the things that stunned a lot of legal observer, frankly, on both sides was the level of detail in the last series of indictments. like those charges involving classified documents. what will you be looking for?

what is your expectation now that we know the letter has been gent. >> well, now that we know the letter has gone out, we can pretty much rest assured that an indictment is coming. i don't think that donald trump is going to show up to the grand jury, i wouldn't be surprised if he did. he has a right not to. there are a couple of things that instruct me when i learned about this target letter today, for as well as donald trump's campaign is going and he alluded to it, it's uncanny that his legal camp seems to be equally as poorly in the opposite direction. there are a few things i keep thinking about, number one, for his entire career, donald trump has had almost a level of what you see from an organized crime boss, in terms of being just close enough to the action and just far enough away to not be charged. which leads me to the second thing, he benefited in a large part to an uncanny amount of loyalty to people around him.

what we learned in the last few weeks there's been a lot of investigation by jack smith to get to those people who have been closest to him. for whatever that loyalty has dissipated which has provided his office with much more information to move forward in solid means. they're getting people to flip and cooperate who previously held donald trump's confidences very closely and no longer are doing so. >> let's use that kind phrase that charles just used, frank, let's call it a dissipation. which means i don't want to go to jail myself. obviously, the level of investigative depth is extraordinary. but the knowledge of people who have that knowledge of crimes that may have been committed, you know how this works. what's getting us to this point? >> we're seeing the proverbial

tip of the icebergs there are sources of cooperators that we don't know about. we've seen glimpses of that like people like rudy giuliani coming in and allegedly talking and claiming today that he hasn't received a target letter. that's interesting in itself. we know, for example in the documents case that somebody tipped off the federal government that, hey, there's no documents here. things are being moved here. that caused the fbi to seek those surveillance -- cctv coverage. so people are talking, even we know secret service agents have appeared before the grand jury. and it's a see-all everywhere at all times. so there's a lot more going on. i predict we're going to learn of cooperators eventually, sources and informants. this person who may be close to nauta, who is being 31ed with a target letter. to flip that person at least on to nauta, if not to trump, directing the movement of

documents. >> chris, i want to the point out, last week, a lot of people were asking why is jack smith talking to hope hicks and jared kushner. if you can say that he knew he lost the election and still peddling his rhetoric to january 6, you can say he had the intent to delay the peaceful transfer of power. so, now, everything that you've seen thus far with respect to investigative reporting starts to gel and come together. you see what jack smith was building behind the scenes and i really expect an indictment. >> i want to ask you very briefly about this, it's one thing to say he knew he lost the election. but if there's a preponderance of evidence, court cases that have gone after him, one after the next. number of people going after him, family members, legal

counsel, people within his sphere saying it's over, donald trump, all the people he talked to who are state attorneys general, i'm sorry, secretaries of state saying we have certified this election. there was no fraud. does that concentrate validity that he lost the election, or at least that he should have known? is that enough? >> i think what you just said is exactly it, and whatever legal training you've had is paying off, chris. >> sitting here with you and frank. that's my legal training. >> did you know or should you have known that you lost the election? and everything that you just said, the court cases, actual moves, the polling, the information that you were getting from the secretaries of state, all of these combine to create the circumstance. it is clear if you are claiming you did not know, you should have known there was no evidence of fraud, there was no widespread evidence of cheating. and that your claims around having had this election stolen from you were completely false.

yet, you still in light of that continue to move forward. and then on top of that, if you're adding in testimony from people who are close to you who are saying he knew, he acknowledged that he lost, well, then you have everything in a ball wrapped up for jack smith to present. it's not necessarily an either/or. in this case, it's going to be the hand also. >> you think so, frank? >> yeah, this is an important point. you absolutely can have a fervent belief in something but that doesn't give you the right to commit crimes. even today, trump has posted, quote, i have the right to protest an election. yes, of course he does, he does not have the right to commit crimes like a fraudulent slate of electors. i can say that my local bank has ripped me off of thousands of dollars but it doesn't give me the right to rob that bank to get my money back. so it's not a reasonable belief. that's where the jury comes in

to decide who is reasonable and who is not. >> professor frank figliuzzi and professor will chris coleman, you have taught me so much. >> let's take a listen. >> former president trump, provided that special counsel is being investigated for 2020 elections, how can speaker mccarthy and the biden administration recognized to go after the number one point. >> here's what we have done. the president respects the department of justice, their independence, he has been very steadfast when making sure that the rule of law comes back and this administration comes back in the white house. and clearly, the administration, and that's what we're saying, i'm just not going to comment on this particular case.

>> and that is consistent with what we have heard from the white house. from our jonathan lemire, mike memoli, do not expect to hear from the president. do not expect to hear from members of the administration about this. let's see whether we hear from some of his surrogates going forward. up next, we're going to dig into the hearing now in the way of trump's classified documents. how are they going to convince jurors in the case if they can't talk about the secret said that they found? that's in 60 seconds. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long

but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. there are currently more than 750,000 unfilled cybersecurity jobs in the u.s. the google cybersecurity certificate was made to fill that gap and help grow the workforce that's keeping us all safe. as we speak, judge aileen cannon is hearing arguments over when to start donald trump's classified documents trial. even with possibility of new charges related to the 2020 interference case could scramble the court calendar all over again. i want to bring in frank figliuzzi, katie is a legal

contributor. and charles coleman is back. now you have say potential indictment, did alleen cannon have to look and decide what she has to decide which is the argument that trump is makes that it makes for an unfair election if the trial has to start before the actual election? >> you know, chris, there's that saying, crazy like a fox. i think that just mightal ply to donald trump. i believe that timing is everything. i think the reason that donald trump waited in this morning to drop that truth social post because as you just said, aileen cannon slg currently presiding over a hearing. if you're trump's defense counsel as they set forth in the opposition to the doj's consideration for a trial date, all of the considerations include the pending trial dates that the defense has. but judge cannon is first in line, first in time. meaning she could set the trial per the doj's request in

december 11th, 2023. or she could sit there and set it even sooner. recall, chris, she said the trial date in august. this is a motion for continuance that was filed by the doj. considering what was announced today, i also want to remind everybody, the last time donald trump got a target letter, an indictment was not issued for another three weeks. cannon should operate in a vacuum. i know it sounds kind of crazy, but she should operate in a vacuum and consider the issues in front of her and only in her courtroom today. >> okay, charles, if you're jack smith and assuming there is another indictment or several indictments, does it matter to you which case goes first? how much influence do you have over that? this feels like a rubik's cube. how do they make it all line up? >> you need to make sure you're moving in chronological order in terms when you file the indictments with respect to multiple cases. if you are going to go out of order, and let's say, for example, the january 6

obstruction indictment comes down in the next few weeks, but you want a trial date that's earlier than the 11th, you kind of need to be able to explain why you need for time for, you know, the first case. >> classifies documents case. >> correct. you need to explain why you're wanting to go out of order. also, i think, in terms what's established, prosecutors are going to go where the facts take them. wherever the facts led them to as far as the mar-a-lago case going first and then january 6, that's what it was. but there may be some indication here that these are the strong of the cases. i think they're all strong. to the earlier point, the federal government moving forward with the prosecution, you should know this is a strong case. so it's really apples and oranges in terms of saying, well, this case is much stronger than the other case. i also think, however, there is some consideration, if we move forward, the first thing we want to do, we want to make sure we maintain our plus-90% conviction rate with whatever we start. i think that's also in jack

smith's mind but ultimately, it's a question of chronology. >> let's talk about what's going on in the courtroom right now, frank. because you know what it takes to navigate cases like this, involving national security secrets. how do you prove to jurors that mishandling secrets is a big deal without telling what the secrets are. is it a natural inclination on part of a juror to say, well, you're saying classified documents would jeopardize our national security, what exactly was it? >> right, prosecutors have to answer the why should i care question that jurors are going to ask themselves, right? yeah, okay, a lot of classified markings. why is this important? does it matter? and so what part of today's hearing is about is working through the procedures and while it's understandable to think, oh, my gosh, this is unprecedented, we never charged a former president like this before. the reality is we've charged plenty of classified documents cases before. the procedures act that actually governs this has been in place for over 40 years.

and today, you're going to hear the prosecutors try to counter every issue that's brought up by the defense. the defense is going to use this classified confusion to delay, delay, delay. the prosecutors are going to say, we've got this covered. here's the plan. here's how we're going to use the cipa act, we're going to disclose the following documents to you. we'll put them in buckets or categories. some you'll see everything unredacted. some we'll see words redacted. some we'll clear the courtroom for, et cetera. and the defense will use this so-called confusion to delay, delay, delay. it's not rocket science. it's been done before. what i'm focused on is how, or not, we're going to have stipulations to classified status of documents. >> so, give us an example. >> yeah, so is the prosecution going to have to bring in an expert from every agency that's affected? cia, nsa, dod, have them

explain, yes, this is my document, yes, it's important. or someone from the office as an umbrella office and say, yes, i can tell you these documents are all classified. but predict that defense will fight every single one. make them show their work. why is this top secret? who says it's top secret? this is the thing we'll see to potentially protract this case. >> we've seen, katie, what the attorneys wrote, quote in general, the defendants believe there should be simply no secret said nor any facts concealed from the public view relative to the prosecution of a leading presidential candidate by his political opponent. our democracy demands no less than full transparency. what's the answer to that? >> well, it's what we call gray mail, right? it's this idea that donald trump is trying to threaten jack smith by saying, fine, you want to play, let's play. and we're going to sit there and

make sure that the american public sees all of this classified information. don't understand estimate somebody like special counsel jack smith. this is not his first time at the rodeo. he knows when it comes to classified document litigation, he knows what's at stake here. if you think jack smith and his team have not considered the ramifications of having to present a case where the prosecution carries the burden of proof beyond the exclusion of every reasonable duty that you estimate to the detriment if you're donald trump, cipa, the classified informations procedures act, is exquisitely clear in terms of timing of hearing of objections and challenges by the doj in this instance. it's not the first time this is litigated. there's a reason why a statute exists to be able to aileen cannon will get a detailing of it. judge, this is how it's supposed

to be done, you're able to handle this and you're able to do it post-case. there's no way to do it. if trump's lawyers are complaining he has other indictments, maybe he should stop crying and only face one at a time. the more the merrier. >> what does katie really think -- i love that. tell me, charles, knowing jack smith and how clear the regulations are, what about the time line, what's a time line here? >> it really depends on what jack smith's second 4 motion. to continue where katie left off, it's basically a provision in cipa that more or less has you lay out for the court, here's the documents, then you'll have the response by the defense, so on. so depending how intricate they get with respect to the section 4 motion of the cipa. that's going to determine what's

a reasonable trial schedule. i think that jack smith has thought as december 11th as being reasonable, having calculated everything he has. one of the things i think that he cannot necessarily control which the hearing is happening, donald trump's attorneys are dragging their feet in getting the type of clearance they need to get the documents in. it's almost as if they say, hey, we can't look at this stuff because they haven't given us clearance. therefore, they're dragging their feet. barring anything else, it's clear that a december 11th trial date is realistic. are you going to get that? probably not, because there's going to be a lot of back and forth. but i do think we could still reasonably shoot for something in the first quarter of 2024. >> okay. we'll have to cancel christmas or hanukkah, but maybe after new year's? >> love this panel, thank you so

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(soft music) today, the 2024 campaigns are processing the very real prospect that the front-runner for the republican nomination could soon be indicted, once again, on federal charges. while we have no idea when all of the cases against donald trump might go to trial, what we do know is that so far, not only have previous charges not hurt his poll numbers in any significant way, the real clear politics average shows him 33 points ahead of the next closest republican right now. could any future charges have a different impact? let's talk about it with brendan buck, former aide to speakers ryan and bainer. john is a polling director at the harvard kennedy school of institute of politics. cornell belter, all three msnbc contributors and we've got nbc's

gabe gutierrez with us. he's on the campaign trail in south carolina. good to see you all. so brendon, after the document in the classified documents case, and the days after the new york civil jury found trump liable for sexually abusing e. jean carroll, this is not a guy who tanked in the polls. would you expect anything to change, should he be indicted again? >> well, i think it's an opportunity, really, a choice, facing people who are running against him. certainly, he didn't get hurt the last few times, but i think you have to look at the context in which all of his opponents, instead of seeing that as an opportunity to go after him, ran interference for him. they defended him. they played into his messaging. i think people running right now have an opportunity. ron desantis has talked about how he's going to change up the campaign. he has a new strategy. i think this is a real test for him. whether he is serious about that, whether he's serious about actually winning this race.

he has an opportunity to differentiate yourself. to demonstrate this is not a serious person, somebody that should get elected, and somebody that you put your trust in. if he decides he wants to side step this, there are only so many times that your opponent is going to step in it, and you have to take advantage of it. and so far, they have not. i'm interested in what ron desantis does here and really, all of them in were backing him up last time. whether or not this person is largely enough in the hands of the person who say they want to be the nominee. >> so, john, i don't need to tell you there are two kinds of polls. one is a public poll, the other is internal poll. whether it's the candidate himself or the other candidates running against him. what do you look for in a poll or within the margins of a poll result to see if a major story like this is making an impact? >> well, a couple things, i think, chris. one is the tread line. if you look at the tread lines over the public polling,

president trump was at 53% a year ago. he's at 54% now in the average. so very little has moved from his perspective. what's moved, though, desantis and pence in the wrong direction. that's really the story over the last several months. one, the second most thing, the most important thing i'm looking for is the favorability numbers, i believe we could be on the verge, based on morning consult polling that was released earlier today, i've seen both desantis and the trump net capability decrease, at the same time were nikki haley and tim scott's net capabilities increasing. that's pretty good timing for them, as we are about a month away from their first republican debate in milwaukee. so, it's a favorability that moves first time and then the of course race follows. >> that's interesting, so cornell, if you were going to be running a poll for one of these candidates to help you understand, how do i take advantage of this situation, especially given the fact that the favorability has gone down

for the two front-runners, what kinds of questions should pollsters be asking here? >> well, for the public and internal, it's two different things. your job, if you're running against donald trump and you're one of the candidates on the campaign against donald trump, you actually have to do just that, you actually have to build a campaign against donald trump. and the fundamentals of campaign politics, they have not changed for decades. and that is, if you have someone ahead of you, you're going to have to give the voters a reason, especially when it's an incumbent. and he's an incumbent in the race. you have to give them a reason to fire the incumbent in order to hire you. look to an earlier point about desantis, when you play the clip of desantis on msnbc earlier today with the reaction, he talked about how the criminal justice system is being politicized. so, he's already answered that question to a certain extent, because he's, again, coming to

donald trump's support. and at some point, you just can't get ahead of the person. you can't have the -- make the case that you should fire the person who is the incumbent and replace them with you, if you are in fact supporting them. the last point i'll make here is this, and i think this is important for if i were looking internally from a campaign standpoint. the ethic stuff is never going to move donald trump, move primary voters off of him, because his predicate, his brand is not that he's an ethical guy. his brand is he's the travel strong man. that's his strength. you talk about how to go at him with his strength, i'll show you how you take him down but the ethics stuff is never going to move voters because that wasn't the predicate with him from the beginning. >> you mentioned desantis. let's go then to gabe gutierrez. there are a lot of folks that thought, well, if there's an

indictment that comes, this is a letter suggesting that one might be coming, there might be one from another campaign. ron desantis was asked about this, he responded to this, what did he tell you? >> reporter: good afternoon. yes, ron desantis here in columbia, south carolina earlier today, said several things including moving out his military policy. also the first candidate to file for the south carolina gop over nikki haley and tim scott. i did ask him about his response to this target letter. he was also asked by another reporter he first brushed it off he hadn't heard about the breaking news. i wanted to ask him if he thought that the actions by former president trump on january 6 were warranted. take a listen to his response. >> there's a difference between being brought up on criminal charges and doing things, like, for example, i think it was shown how he was in the white

house and didn't do anything while things were going on. he should have come out more forcefully, of course, that. but to try to criminalize that, that's a different issue entirely. and i think that we want to be in a situation where, you know, you don't have one side just constantly trying to put the other side in jail. >> reporter: so, chris, it's a nuanced response right there. those were actually his most forceful comments denouning what donald trump did on january 6. saying that he essentially should have done more. he was in the white house, he didn't do anything to stop it. still, however, desantis' critics said he should have came out more. donald trump's defense team called that, quote, a disqualifying take from an unserious candidate. again, ron desantis walking that fine line, criticizing trump for how little his actions on that day, but going on to talk about the criminalization of politics.

and he repeated once again his talking point about the weaponization of the doj. that's a new response from governor ron desantis today, chris. >> brendan, let's remind people that ron desantis is a harvard-trained lawyer. as a legal statement, as a political statement, what do you make of what you just heard from him? >> look, i get that ron desantis is frustrated that his campaign is defined by donald trump and he's having to respond to donald trump, but welcome to politics in the republican party in the year 2023, what did you expect? i mean, i'm sorry you had to talk about how your opponent is about to get indicted again. jump in, there are a lot of people that run for president, some not to win, some for vp, to get in the cabinet. to establish themselves. ful you want for beat donald trump you have to be an anti-trump candidate at some level. at some point, hopefully now,

once again, an indictment, you see this as an opportunity. but the wishy washy have it both ways is not going to get you anywhere. it's going to upset some people, but it does not demonstrate strength. and that's what republican voters want is strength. >> so, so often, donald trump has defied history, but let me ask you, does history tell us anything in presidential campaigns about what does move the needle? and are there things that make a significant change, that you can point to in time and say, okay, this is where we saw in the polls this race turn? >> i think there's evidence of that, chris, at this stage of the campaign, the only sure thing, there's no such thing as a sure thing. recent history showed in 2008, we were looking at a presidential guy. as history showed in 2016, we were looking at a president

force. it's incredibly early. i don't think voters have sat down sand looked at the candidates to make a choice. we don't know, for example in new hampshire where two polls came out in the last couple of days, one with trump up by 24, the other trump by 14. we know a percentage of independents will vote. there's a lot to understand, there's a lot for voters to comprehend. don't sleep on tim scott. 47% of republican voters either have never heard of him or don't have an opinion. so, i think there's a long way to go. and it will take some time before we see what is the turning point. and it very well could be this summer or early fall. we just don't know yet. >> yeah. we're just a little more than a month from the first debate. gentlemen, great to have you here. thank you so much. reaction from the white house and capitol hill on all of these developments, well, we're back after this short break.

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so, right now, reaction continues come in from capitol hill to the news that donald trump received a target letter from special counsel jack smith in the 2020 election interference probe. with me now, ali vitali who is on capitol hill for us. what are we hearing from both sides, ali? >> reporter: yeah, chris, not much nuance here.

if you're a republican, especially a trump ally, you're saying this is an example of politicization and weaponization of the government against the former president. if you're a democrat, you're saying this is simply law enforcement following the facts of their investigation. watch. >> former president trump has done repeatedly things that call upon law enforcement and everyone to look at what he's done. and because so much of it is certainly questionable at best and illegal at worst. >> the indictment doesn't necessarily do anything. you can indict anybody. >> is that concerning about his viability as a candidate? >> every time they indict him, his numbers go up. so, no. >> reporter: and look what congressman brewcette is saying

there, we've seen two prior indictments trump sustains himself. prior to the indictment of 2024, the fact that trump could be indicted two more time built into the calculus around him. we've watched the way and the conversation you just had with gabe gutierrez who covers desantis for us. it's notable the way we see his rivals who engage with him to say it could be baggage. as we watch republicans continue to try to play defense for him. we've seen him on the committee level. we've watched, for example, the house commit chairman, jim jordan and others try to use their committees to play defense for the former president. trying to get information about the special counsel probe or trying to get the manhattan district attorney in that first one to come to committee. all of these leverage of powers that they're trying to push in favor of playing defense for

donald trump. what i think is going to be interesting, though, and the senate is coming back in just a few hours, finally getting to hear from some of these senators, that's where we started to see dissension in the republican ranks, chris. the idea that it's a lot of house republicans marching in lockstep with trump sort of falls apart when you cross to the other side of congress. senators are much more willing to be critical. i guess we'll see in a little bit here, whether or not that holds true on the third turn of the legal dial for trump. certainlier it's true on the last two. >> ali vitali, it's good to see you, my friend. we want to catch you up with a couple other big stories of the day, starting with the latest from north korea where an american soldier has been detained by north korea after straying over the border. now, according to u.n. command, the unnamed u.s. national was on the tour of the demilitarized

zone. the white house we're told is currently monitoring the situation but has not yet commented. right now, extreme weather reports are in effect for 60 million people from california. and phoenix is expected to break the record for consecutive days over 110 degrees. today is day 19, and there's no end in sight. will we hear from merrick garland, jack smith or the doj about this new target letter? we'll talk about that, next. living with diabetes? glucerna protein smart has your number with 30 grams of protein.

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this is the courthouse in fort pierce, florida, where a critically important hearing is going on right now, on one side you have prosecutors from jack smith's office, on the other, donald trump and walt nauta. two things judge cannon is looking at. one, the timing of the trial, will it be before or after the 2024 election, and how will they handle the classified documents? folks have been in there for more than 50 minutes. we haven't had our producer or reporter coming out. we will bring you up to date on what decisions might have been made there. in the meantime, note this, the world found out former president donald trump is the target of jack smith's investigation into january 6th from trump himself, not the special counsel, not the attorney general, but from the man at the center of the investigation. just as he did when he was

indicted in the classified documents case. "new york times" justice department reporter katie benner is with us. katie, good to see you. do you expect we would hear from merrick garland from jack smith about this new target letter? and, if so, when? >> we're not going to hear from jack smith, we're not going to hear from merrick garland. the justice department officials like to let their court documents do the talking. i suspect the first we're going to hear from the justice department regarding why donald trump is considered a target will be if donald trump is indicted, and it will be within the pages of the indictment. >> so you've reported extensively on this investigation and on how reluctant garland was to even name a special counsel in the first place because he wanted to show doj operates outside of any political pressures, but with the charging decision potentially coming soon, is the department ready to navigate the massively partisan reaction that

isn't just coming but has already begun as we've heard from some of the other candidates for president and as we've heard from folks on capitol hill? >> it's not certain to me that the justice department could ever actually be prepared for what's going to come at it politically for indicting the former president, not once but potentially twice. keep in mind jack smith would not send a target letter to a former president. that's so extremely serious. unless he felt pretty serious he was going to get an indictment returned in washington vis-a-vis january 6. again, we've already seen in the documents case political rhetoric that's more inflamed, more heated, more severe than we've seen in the past. it's going to be interesting to see how that plays into the trump campaign as the former president campaigns for the presidency again, this time from the inside of a courtroom. >> and the key question, katie, is, of course, about timing, when we'll get a decision. donald trump in his social media post indicated he got this letter on sunday and he expects

something in the coming days. are we almost certain to get something this week or maybe not? >> thinking about the calendar, he said the justice department gave him four days to come testify before the grand jury, i suspect the department certainly did give him that time. so that's this week. he's likely to do what dein the documents case, have his lawyers sit down with the justice department to plead their case before any indictment were to happen. i suspect if his lawyers do, indeed, have that meeting with officials donald trump may be the first to tell the world it has happened. i don't suspect we'll see any indictment before those two things happen. >> i think the chances of donald trump being the first to tell the world is a good bet. katie benner, be good to have you on the program. that's going to do it for us this hour. join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc.

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we have a lot to get to including news out of south florida about the timing of donald trump's classified documents trial, not to mention that other giant story of the day. as you have no doubt heard by now, donald trump was sent a target letter by special counsel jack smith. this one about his role in trying to overturn the 2020 election. donald trump announced it in a truth social post this morning. federal law enforcement sources confirm the former president was sent that letter on sunday. we often call this investigation the january th investigation, but it is about more than just that day. we've seen myriad trump aides, state