russia. you know, you know this well, right, there's such stark contrasts here in terms of supporting ukraine or being sort of weak-kneed toward russia, soft on russia. after what russia did, invading a sovereign country and a neighbor, i think the white house feels pretty good that public opinion remains pretty strong, in favor of strong support for ukraine. >> certainly the possibility of trump returning to the world stage was a shadow over all of the events last week in europe. >> yeah. >> white house reporter for "politico" as well as co-author of "the west wing playbook," eli stokols, thank you for being with us. thank you to all of you for getting up "way too early." "morning joe" starts now. 2024 is our final battle. with you at my side, we will demolish the deep state. we will expel the war mongers from our government. we will drive out the

globalists, cast out the communists, marxists, fascists. we will throw off the political class that hates our country. >> donald trump on saturday appealing to his far-right base, promising to take on the so-called deep state that is against him. there is new reporting this morning on trump's much darker vision for the country. his advisers are crafting autocratic plans for the presidency if he wins in 2024. that reporting is in line with a warning from trump's former chief of staff about what a second trump term could mean for america. meanwhile, a prominent democrat is leaving the door open for a third party run for president. what senator joe manchin is saying about that possibility. >> come on, man. also ahead, the latest from eastern europe. >> come on, man. >> where russian president vladimir putin is promising to retaliate for an attack on a crucial supply bridge for his forces. a lot to get to on this tuesday

morning on july 18th. good morning, everyone. along with joe, willie and me, we have former white house press secretary now and msnbc host jen psaki. host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. and author and nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss. joe, great special last night. it is joe 24/7, primetime and first thing in the morning. i'm impressed. great job. [ applause ] >> look at that clap. >> pelosi-esque. >> yeah. okay, very good. yeah, i'm really excited. you were here last night. >> yeah, i was here, too. >> my gosh. >> the iron woman. >> yay, jen. >> yes. >> cal ripken like.

we have a lot to talk about. first, it's great to be on the new york set. i can see the newspaper of record. you know, people say, why do you call "the new york post" the newspaper of record? i have to say, it's because they handle things with such delicacy. you know, you have a human tragedy. >> i know. >> you have a human tragedy, and i know too much about the pain and the cost of divorce. i think "the new york post" handles it like, well, you'd expect "the new york post" to handle a divorce. yeah. thank you. >> sofia vergara is getting divorced. there you go. so the newspaper of record, busted up. >> yeah. >> well. >> our lead story of the morning, apparently. >> apparently. >> nothing is going on. >> learned about it 19 seconds ago. >> same here. speaking of busted up, willie, the american league east, once one by the new york

yankees and boston red sox, now we're the door mats of the a.l. east. >> well, we are the door mats. the new york yankees. >> hold on a second. >> sole possession of last place. >> you have to figure out, lemire, how to low key it. false modesty, an art form. when they're in last place, you say, "we're in last place." you require them to explain to the world how they're actually in last place. instead of you looking like a front runner, saying they're in last place. >> when they go low, we go high. have we heard that before? >> no, it is all false modesty, to break their hearts even more at the end. right now, what you're saying is -- >> come on. >> -- it's a marathon. willie, this is a marathon. >> yeah. >> you guys, you've got the kick at the end. we've got no chance. i think if you really want me to be honest, you guys probably end up winning the a.l. east by seven, eight, nine games.

>> bear bryant taught you well, no chance against appalachian state. >> after the game, it'd be like, embarrassed. the good mamas and daddies trusted me with them. i pray they don't take them out of the school. >> taking cues. >> when paul ccartney arrives with the beatles at jfk, the reporters scream, "you're no good. why are you here?" there's a mob. paul mccartney says, "we're not. why are you here?" you disarm them. watch this. watch what i'm doing. >> take it from the top. >> 6:05. >> listen, the red sox and the yankees were door mats at the a.l. east. you're probably going to win by seven, eight, nine games. i think the fact that right now you're a little low, it is going to make that charge into first place even more. >> you're nice to say that and i am flattered and disarmed by

your comments. [ laughter ] >> what i would add is it is us, the new york yankees, in sole possession. >> setting up a storybook finish for the comeback. >> appreciate your generosity. the yankees are in last place, nine games back, for the first time this late in the season since 1990. generationally bad right now for the new york yankees. didn't help they were playing the angels. shohei ohtani with a two-run home run in the seventh, his 35th of the season. we're just watching something, john, we've never seen before. even as a yankee fan, it's fun to watch. >> here's your test, john. >> two thoughts. simply on ohtani first, he is spectacular and the biggest story line in baseball the next two weeks, whether the angels trade him. they're about to fall out of the wild card race. he is on pace to challenge judge's record. as far as the yankees go, i mean, this is setting up a storybook september. the comeback for the bronx bombers.

you know, the little team that could. >> it's in their blood, isn't it, jonathan? >> you saw it. >> so disheartening. i see what they're doing. this is like secretariat at belmont. >> the 27 titles. >> come on. >> dozens upon dozens of pennants. this will be one of the yankee teams remembered throughout history, like the '27 and '61 yankees, 2000 yankees. the latest edition. >> this is going too far. >> 2003, what do they do, break our hearts. 1978, they break our hearts. that's what they do. >> time after time. >> you know what 2003 sets up? 2004 for you. >> even a blind squirrel can find a nut every once in a while, willie. >> oh, my god. >> i got to say, before we do anything else, word association, joe manchin. >> center. likes to be the center of attention. i don't mean the center of the party, i mean center of attention. likes to be talked about.

>> okay. willie, we'll figure out how much we want to talk about our good friend joe today. do you think he really wants to help a fascist get elected president? that will be his legacy for the rest of his life. joe manchin helped elect a fascist. before that was senator and governor. >> he likes to be asked if he is going to run for president. is that fair, jen? >> yeah, and he has time now to be buzzed about until january when he has to decide if he is going to run for re-election. he is going to sit in the buzz. >> sit in the buzz. mika, why don't you -- >> perfectly put. >> sit in the buzz and do the news for us. >> all right. as polls show -- i don't even know what that meant -- donald trump leading the field of the 2024 republican candidates. his potential radical plans for a second term are coming into clearer view. according to "the new york times," trump and his allies are planning a, quote, sweeping expansion of presidential power,

should the former president retake the white house. this would reportedly include giving trump the power to withhold funds from any government program or agency that he doesn't like. including the federal trade and federal communications commissions. within those agencies, "the times" reports, trump intends to, quote, strip employment protections from tens of thousands of career civil servants, making it easier to replace them if they are deemed obstacles to his agenda. among trump's other top targets would be the state department, defense department, and intelligence agencies, to replace people who he has deemed part of the, quote, sick political class that hates our country. all of this would be done under the framework of a decades old conservative legal theory, which rejects the idea of a three-branch system of government and the fundamental concept of checks and balances. instead, according to "the

times," supporters of the theory argue article 2 of the constitution gives the president complete control of the executive branch so congress cannot empower agency heads to make decisions or restrict the president's ability to fire them. in a statement to "the times," a trump campaign spokesperson did not deny the plans, but instead said the former president has, quote, laid out a bold and transparent agenda for his second term. this is one of those vintage trump moments, joe, where his base will love this in some ways. >> well, they'll love it, as we talked about last night, because it suggests that he is strong. authoritarianism has swept the republican party. it used to be small government. small government has been replaced by authoritarianism. look at ron desantis to see if a baseball team to a professional baseball team tweets their sympathy for uvalde, and he uses the power of the central state

to punish that baseball team. if walt disney talks, the largest employer in the state, mind you, decides they're going to celebrate diversity, he uses all the powers of the centralized state to try to break corporations, to intimidate corporations. it's authoritarianism. even cruise liners. again, the biggest industries in the state, ron desantis has learned very well from donald trump and, you know, trying to force cruise liners to open up during the pandemic without using any safeguards. he does the same with small business owners. this is what donald trump is talking about. you know, michael beschloss, this is what orban does in hungary. this is what was happening before the war. the idea was use the centralized state to crush any dissent, whether it is in the bureaucracy, as anne applebaum

talked about, the twilight of democracy, where loyalty replaces competence. whether you're talking about it in the media sphere, where you intimidate and get rid of media opponents. what about, again, the fcc, donald trump having the sole power to decide whether this network or other networks he doesn't like actually are on the air or not? that's what we're talking about here. talk about the danger, the level of danger to american democracy. >> well, if you love mussolini, you will love what donald trump is talking about for 2025. mussolini followed the unitarian executive theory, too, which meant total power to the dictator, no constraints. this is about as un-american, i think you will all agree, as anything i've ever heard. i mean, the reason why this country was founded was as a rebuke to the british king. we wanted to develop a system where you could not have a king,

you could not have a dictator. power was under constraint. when you were in tuscaloosa, joe, i'm sure you talked about, as i have ever since, the fact that there are checks and balances, three branches of government. that's all james madison who used to be a conservative hero. now comes along donald trump, the first major candidate in american history to say outright, "i want a presidential dictatorship." i can't think of anything that's more out of the american tradition. >> and it really is, willie. it's from madison, who was a conservative hero for generations. from madison to mussolini, all the power and the executive branch, the power to shut down tv stations, the power to prefer certain businesses to other businesses. it is exactly what fascists do. >> yeah, this is pure strongman stuff, and they're saying it out loud. they're saying, "this is what we're going to do. you watched us in the first term. it is going to be even worse in

the second term," just saying it. here is trump's former chief of staff, john kelly, also warning about the possibility of a second term for the former president. kelly told "the new york times," quote, it'd be chaotic. it simply would be chaotic because he would continually be trying to exceed his authority but the sycophants would be going along with it. it'd be a gunfight with the congress and the courts. eugene robinson, imagine a scenario where instead of john kelly, general mattis, people who stayed in the job to provide guardrails, because the people behind them, it won't be there. i'm slightly kidding, mr. pillow would be the guy in the office giving advice to donald trump. >> don't laugh. >> not kidding. >> it'd be people like mr. pillow, sidney powell, and the entire crazy, lunatic fringe that gathered around donald trump and that will enable this move toward fascism. i mean, this is textbook

fascism. it's outrageous. it is incredibly dangerous, not just to our system of democracy and our democratic values, it's just dangerous because he's talking about wanting to essentially fire the people in the federal bureaucracy who know how to run things, who make the country work, who keep our air clean and our water safe and who keep us safe in the intelligence agencies and in the defense department and everywhere he sees somebody who doesn't toe the line, who doesn't go allow with every crazy, anti-democratic idea he has, he wants the ability to fire that person and replace him or her with a lackey. that's what he wants. that's what he intends.

we should believe him when he says it, and this is a great danger to the country that we know. >> and it's confronted with this possibility, jen, that senior people in the pentagon think that were trump to return to office, there would be no guardrails. he would be completely unfettered. he also, importantly, wouldn't have to face voters again, so there's no consequences. >> right. >> they feel like this could be the american experiment itself in jeopardy. >> yes. >> so with that in mind, how realistic -- you've come out of federal government not too long ago -- how realistic could he enact this? are there checks and balances that could get in his way? could congress play a role, assuming it's not just republicans bowing down to him? how does this work? >> it is important to remember some of these independent -- some of the agencies that are agency is by tradition. presidents of republican and democratic presidents have respected that. donald trump has made no indication he is going to respect that. he did not in his first term.

when i speak with national security officials in the pentagon or former officials, they'll say, a second term is far scarier than a first. beyond his intention of, say, self-pardoning himself, should he need, which his legal team and advisers seem to be talking about privately, the other concern here is he could use these regulatory agencies and outside agencies for his own personal benefit. think about the ftc. nobody talks about the ftc as something they care about on a daily basis, i bet, but this agency has an enormous amount of control over companies being regulated. he could decide, that company is my enemy. i'm going to hurt them. i want that company to benefit so i can benefit. >> that's exactly what orban has done. >> yes. >> he doesn't throw people that run businesses he's opposed to into jail, he begins government informations. he fines them, taxes them, and

levied a heavy burden so, in the end, someone says, "let me bayou buy you out." in the press, orban suddenly has no opponents in the press. >> if you are a private sector company, aren't you going to try to get into the good side of donald trump or somebody who can control which companies are regulated, which are not? it feeds into that, as well. you know, to go back to your original question there, jonathan, i mean, i think the challenge here is whether our system is set up for a second trump term. i mean, the people who have been elected, you may disagree with them politically or their poll policies, but they have respected for the most part the rule of law, when agencies need to be independent, for good reason. that is not something that trump, and not just trump, though, also desantis and others running for president, have indicated they want to do away with, these checks and balances

that have been a part of our government for hundreds of years. >> michael beschloss, ron desantis offers a very good warning about what happens in a second trump term with somebody who has learned his lessons, instead of being a bloviater that goes to twitter when he is angry. ron desantis gave examples. this is how you crush businesses. this is how you intimidate ceos. again, i was talking this past weekend to a republican from -- that's worked for the republican party for a generation, who said, "desantis, free state of florida is a joke." this person said, "i deal with ceos every day who are petri petrified, petrified that ron desantis will notice them. they're keeping their heads down. they're not doing anything because they know he has the ability to use the power of the centralized state to crush them or to make their lives

miserable." >> right. and you've got the frontrunner of the republican party, donald trump, the number two candidate by polls, ron desantis, desantis, whatever it is, they're both fascists. they both want authoritarianism in america. the thing i can't understand, maybe you can all enlighten me, why did donald trump make an effort to announce this last couple of days? he wants to make people afraid. he wants people to think that authoritarianism and trump are inevitable and bow to him and make it much easier for him to walk in in 16 months. >> well, this is a man who needs to walk in in 16 months if he wants to skirt the law. he is running for president, and that's the, probably, the only way he can avoid the legal issues he is facing. later today, the first pretrial hearing in the federal criminal case involving former president donald trump and his handling of classified documents, it'll take place in a south florida

courtroom. lawyers for both trump and co-department walt nauta are slated to be present, but neither trump or nauta is expected to attend. the trial was to go over the rules and procedures for how documents containing sensitive information would be handled and presented in the case, but nbc news has learned judge ilene aileen canon ordered both sides to be prepared to discuss when the trial should take them. initially, the trial was to again next month on august 14th. prosecutors and special counsel jack smith's office requested the trial begin on december 11th. lawyers for trump want the trial delayed until after the 2024 presidential election. willie? while this is going on, there is georgia. former president trump has lost his latest attempt to shut town the fulton county, georgia,

election interference probe. the georgia supreme court denied a petition by the trump team to stop the d.a.'s investigation. fani willis has been looking into whether the former president and his associates broke the law in their attempts to overturn the 2020 georgia election results. the rejected request was one of two filed by trump's lawyers last week. the petition asks the court to remove willis from the case and to quash a report from the special grand jury she used during the investigation. the nine-judge, state supreme court ruled unanimously against trump and his lawyers, saying they did not prove the, quote, extraordinary circumstances required to close the case. a representative for the former president did not immediately respond to an nbc news request for comment. the office for d.a. willis declined to comment, as well. >> geez. >> john, this folds into your book, "the big lie," about what happened in the state of georgia, among other places, but this was a unanimous decision from a lefty supreme court.

they said, "no, absolutely, this attempt, we're putting it down." the potential trial moves on. >> for now, it is another example of how the legal system held. the court system of the united states has held against donald trump's lies. all eyes will be on judge aileen cannon in florida to see what she decides about the start of the trial. this was a swift rebuke yesterday from georgia. certainly, eugene robinson, georgia has resented a particular challenge. people are worried about it, for obvious reasons. if trump can be elected again, he'll have the power of the federal government and the pow power to pardon himself. he would try. there is a ticking clock. fani willis sent word this is probably coming in early august. speak to us, if you will, how important you think this is. how carefully should we be watching georgia, as it has been drowned out by the headlines from the classified documents

case? >> well, it is vitally important. we should be watching it very closely. it zooms to the top of the list now. georgia, you'll recall, is where there is a tape recording of that phone call between donald trump and brad raffensperger, in which he asks him to find just enough votes, find just enough votes to overturn joe biden's win in georgia. if fani willis believes there is a criminal case to be brought against donald trump in georgia, and it certainly looks like there is to me, then, yeah, she needs to move. this is primetime. it's time to move ahead with that case. as you say, a state conviction cannot be pardoned. it's unclear whether a self-pardon would work for a president in any case, even in a federal conviction. it certainly doesn't work in a

state conviction. and so it's heartening that the georgia supreme court just sort of rejects it out of hand, this claim that trump was making about the investigations being improper. now, if she's got the goods, it is time to bring the case. >> all right. nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss, thank you very much for being on this morning. we have a lot to get to. still ahead on "morning joe," the kremlin is blaming ukraine after an attack on the bridge that connects crimea to mainland russia. we'll have the latest on the war, as vladimir putin now is vowing a response. plus, it seems democratic senator joe manchin is flirting with a third party presidential ticket after appearing with former republican governor jon huntsman at a campaign style event in new hampshire yesterday. we'll get a live report from

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nbc news has not confirmed those reports. yesterday, russia also announced it will not extend the agreement to let ukraine export grain through its black seaports. the kremlin says that decision is unrelated to the attack on the bridge. joe? >> willie, when you've been committing war crimes for a year and a half, you kind of -- you've run out of things to do as far as threaten, oh, we'll have a response to you blowing up the bridge. he's already committed war crimes for a year and a half. >> yeah, he's lost the benefit of the doubt in who blew up the bridge. he says, the ukrainians did it to themselves. i'm not sure many outside of moscow are believing him. joining us now, chief international correspondent keir simmons who has been covering this war so closely, spent time inside russia. we can start with the latest bridge attack. we've seen these before, where there is an attack or explosion, and russia says that it was

ukraine self-sabotaging to gain sympathy from the world, et cetera. what is your assessment of where things stand. >> they damaged the bridge, didn't bring it down. they've done it before. russia managed to repair it relatively quickly. it is an emotional blow as well as a strategic blow to president putin. if they did bing the entire bridge down, that would be a major challenge because of the supply line issues for russia. in many ways, targeting this bridge is psychological warfare. the ukrainians haven't said it is them, but it is, frankly, them. it's the ukrainians sending a message to president putin. i mean, listen, i think the grain deal, the bridge, all of this really paints a picture of no capitulation by either side. >> right. >> there is absolutely no sign that either side is interested in anything other than continuing this conflict. on the surface anyway. let's lots beneath the surface

we don't know about. >> let's talk about what is going on beneath the surface inside russia. we had a scene out of "the sopranos" what we were talking about off air. putin, the head of family. lukashenko next door, interested in moving in. what's going on internally in russia from the best that you can tell? >> yeah, i mean, i spent time in moscow, right? russia is 11 time zones, an enormous country. judging exactly what the psychology and thinking is amongst, you know, 140 million russians, not easy. in moscow, though, one of the striking aspects is, trying to struggle for words, how relaxed it is. how much people are kind of going about their business. how much -- and we've stopped talking about this -- economically, certainly amongst the privileged in moscow, there's little indication that there's any kind of challenge for them. why is that? is it a kind of nihilism? is it that genuinely, this conflict is a long way away from

them, effectively? i will say, i've noticed in the time that i've been there, talking to russians more and more, to the point now where almost everybody is talking about knowing somebody who has lost somebody in the fighting. >> that's what i was going to ask you about. at the beginning of the war, people said it might be like afghanistan. complaining here, you have maybe 100,000 deaths already. i mean, this is just horrific. >> yeah. >> you look again, compare that to the united states. we lost about 5,000 men and women in uniform over 20 years in iraq and afghanistan. it was a great scar -- >> yeah. >> -- on our politics, on our culture here. 100,000 dead. >> yeah. >> where are the mothers? where are the fathers? >> we don't know the number. with number, we don't know the actual number, but it's a lot. there's no question. >> i'm basing it on british intel which, of course, we trust in. >> great. >> casualties could be that high. >> right. >> regardless, it's massive.

>> yeah. >> so where are the protests? where are the concerns? >> well, exactly. i mean, that's another way of making the same point. when you go -- when you travel to russia as i do, you don't notice that kind of level of resistance. remember, a lot of people who might be resistant have left. >> have left. >> you can't -- >> how bad is the brain drain? not to cut in here, but i think this may be one of, economically, one of the greatest, most horrific legacies for russia. the best and the brightest are out. >> if you're president putin, he has an election next year. a lot of the people who might have voted against him won't be there anymore. >> they're gone. >> it is important not to judge how people will react to losing loved ones. we're seeing really the deep, deep polarization on both sides. i think, you know, on both sides, there's a kind of version of -- you know, it's --

>> right. >> russian families who have lost loved ones may be reacting by saying, i'm more patriotic, more nationalistic. now, in terms of prigozhin, that could be the curtain pulling back and giving us a sign that there are changes happening. certainly, the psychology of thousands and thousands of russians who have been on the front lines coming back to russia, i think that's an interesting question. so there is all that. having said that, though, what we have seen, just talking about the facts, what we've seen is potentially the greatest threat to president putin. prigozhin and the wagner group insurrection failing. >> right. >> putin is still in position. it's just -- these are just many different ways of saying, frankly, we don't know what happens next. >> right. >> willie, i'm going to be congregating that latin phrase, and while i'm doing that -- i went to alabama, this may take a

while. you ask the next question. >> you're often seen early morning hours muttering that through central park. the authorities put a blanket on you and call your loved ones. >> think about it. >> obviously, it goes back to world war i. >> well, of course. >> it's like -- >> yeah. we know that. what are you saying, we americans are stupid? we don't learn latin and greek in third grade? >> this is not going the direction i hoped. >> i'll pull it back in your direction. >> what is the phase again? [ speaking latin ] >> that means? >> it is right and glorious to die for your country. >> see? >> nailed it. >> just how we learned it in tuscaloosa. next question. >> keir, when we were talking at the start of this, you said there is no sign of capitulation from either side, which is true. when you look at the grain deal putin pulled out of, meaning ukraine can't export grain the way it wants to, which was viewed as an olive branch from

the u.n. and turkey a year or so ago, how are you viewing this as someone who covers it? how are experts inside russia and ukraine viewing this? some said putin is waiting out the american presidential election. if he gets donald trump, that's a good thing for him. he knows donald trump will cave and take his side on this. >> yes. >> is that a fair assessment of putin's thinking? >> russia has long experience, going back to the cimean war. there is experience that the west doesn't last. >> right. >> you'd understand why in the kremlin they'd be thinking that is a possibility. i do think the lapsing of the grain deal -- i mean, there wasn't much grain being exported at this point, but the deal no longer now today in place. it's potentially a sign of the kremlin hunkering down further, backed further in its bunker. by the way, china was the primary recipient of a lot of that grain.

of course, turkey was part of the negotiation. turkey made this extraordinary shift toward the west. what does that tell us about how president putin is kind of viewing his position in the world and so there are things to understand about the geopolitics, beyond just deep concern for the poorer countries that were receiving the grain. in terms of the potential for a deal, there's no potential for a deal. this is all about territory. neither side is interested in ceding anything. we talk about the chinese peace plan. it's not a peace plan. it's a russia keeps the toretory territory plan. the ukrainian peace plan is ukraine gets all the territory back. we should stop calling them peace plan and call them victory plans. that's what they are. there's no sign of that. unless something is happening, again, and it's quite possible, unless something is happening behind the iron curtain, if you'd like, in kremlinology,

which we don't understand, i don't see how we see an end to this any time soon. >> so one of the big questions, i mean, there's so many questions of that, the short-lived march to moos moscow, is not just where is prigozhin, but where are the bag wagner trooped? they've played a key role for the russian effort. what is your assessment on how many are still fighting in ukraine, how many are willing to? are many in belarus? >> a bunch of them appear to be in belarus. we were in belarus a few weeks ago at one of the camps they've prepared. now, they seem to be there. belarus is saying they're there to train belarus soldiers. that's clearly not going to be the whole story. >> mm-hmm. >> i think -- i do think that a bunch of this is being made up as -- by each day, they're making it up. it the end, the deal to get prigozhin and the wagner group to turn around on the freeway to

moscow, that was clearly cobbled together by lukashenko and others. we're still in that territory, really, i think, of kind of watching, somewhat perplexed, them figure this out, you know, each stage of this out. there is clearly a move by the kremlin to remove members of the military who supported the insurrection. that's part of the puzzle. but this is kremlinology. you just don't know what is really going on behind those kremlin walls right now, i think. >> all right. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> thanks, keir. coming up, our next guest writes, "the ridiculous state of the modern american knock is a democracy is a system where the rich get elected and the elected get rich." senior columnist for "the

daily beast," matt lewis joins us with more on his new book, "filthy rich politicians." later, a new piece that lays out a key way to stop donald trump from becoming our next president. "morning joe" is coming right back. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪

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it is 46 past the hour. a beautiful morning in washington, d.c. probably another hot one, right? the powerball jackpot rose to $1 billion after no winner emerged after the drawer last night. it marks the third largest jackpot in u.s. history. however, it has a ways to go to beat the top spot. that belongs to the 2022 prize,

which was valued at over $2 billion. however, if you were to win the current pot in new york state and chose an annuity payout, you'd take home roughly half a billion dollars. that amount would make you wealthier than the richest member of congress right now. but not by very much. speaking of that, joining us now, senior columnist for "the daily beast," matt lewis. he is author of a new book, "filthy rich politicians, the swamp chicreatures, latte liber and ruling class elites cashing in on america." tell us about your book, matt, and who are you looking at here exactly? >> well, i'm really looking at all of them. the richest politician in america is actually j.b. pritzker, the governor of illinois. the richest congressman, member of congress, is probably rick scott, senator from florida.

politicians make it hard to know exactly how rich they are. they write the laws and the disclosures, and it is usually a broad range. we don't know exactly how rich they are, but, look, this book is about how the rich get elected and the elected get rich. i think both parts of that equation are important, starting with the fact that rich people tend to get elected. in fact, right now, the average member of congress -- and i'm not talking about president or senate -- just your average house of representatives member, it is something like 12 times richer than the average american household. that gap has grown in recent decades. i argue that there's some disconnect between our elected officials and we the people. but i think even more crows i have -- corrosive is the other side of the equation. once people get elected, they almost always get richer. i think, you know, if you look at -- talk about how the game is

rigged, i think there is a sense out there that our politicians are using their position to feather their nest, and i think that is undermining trust in elected officials and in liberal democracy, and i think it's a problem. >> matt, when i served, i mean, most members that i knew in the house were like me. i mean, i came to congress with a couple of hound dogs and a buick skylark with three tires on it. didn't have a whole lot of money, but everybody i served with -- not everybody, but most of the people i served with, you know, didn't have a whole lot of money. they were very middle class background. when did this change? >> it has been going on for about three or four decades, when it is really, i think, kind of reached the level that we're at now, joe. again, we've always had rich presidents, you know? george washington was rich, obviously. fdr, theodore roosevelt, the

kennedys. that's not a new thing. what is new is that the average member of the house of representatives, and this is the lower chamber, right? it's what madison wanted to be, you know, something of a deliberative body that represented the people, that was the closest to the american people. the average member of congress, i think it was in 2014, became a millionaire. i think that the gap has widened. in the last four decades, the average member of congress has something like doubled their net worthwhile the rest of us are kind of treading water or maybe even going backwards in some cases. >> so, matt, i guess the question, and you just eluded to this, is does it matter? does it matter that rich people are elected to office? you mentioned fdr, jfk is often cited, george h.w. bush, they come from wealthy families and did good things for people.

in your analysis as you wrote this book, does the candidate or the politician's wealth impact the way they govern? >> i definitely think that our experience impacts our world view. i don't begrudge rich people. honestly, if i were super rich, i'd probably be on a beach drinking a pina colada. part of me admires people want to go to washington and serve their country if they are wealthy. there are some problems, right? there is the transitive property of expertise. people think because they were successful in business that they can automatically be good politicians. i think if you're super wealthy, if you were born with a silver spoon, it is going to be a little hard to connect and to empathize with regular americans. but to be honest, i think a much more concerning problem is the other part of the book, which is the part where people who get elected tend to also get richer. that is the part that i think is

the most corrosive. there was a sense that people are using their position, whether it's insider trading in the stock market, land deals or whatever the case may be. you know, there was a pew research center study in 2015 that showed that three-quarters of americans believe that their elected officials are using their position to advance their own self-interest, not ours. this was in 2015, they described their elected officials as being quote, unquote, selfish. one year later, donald trump runs for president. he was allegedly a billionaire, but he did a good job of talking about how the game was rigged, the swamp needed to be drained, and i think there was a reason why that resonated. >> matt, sounds like a lot of your concern here is how politicians are using their job to get richer. do you have any solutions you

propose in the book? are you suggesting people should not be able to trade stock in they're in congress, which a lot are supporting? are there other policy proposals you think would help solve this? >> absolutely. so that is the first one, right? since 2012, it's been illegal to engage in insider trading in congress, but it's impossible to police. there are a lot of examples i could cite that look very swampy, very sketchy. one of the things i propose is simply to ban individual stock trading for members of congress. you could still own mutual funds, but i think it's not too much to ask, if you want to -- >> why wouldn't they do that, matt? i've never understood this. why not the ban? it makes too much sense. >> that's why, joe. it makes too much sense. you know, what's funny, now almost everybody is in favor of this and, yet, it doesn't happen. when i was writing this book, i got about six months out, and i started to get a little worried. they're actually going to do it. they're going to ban stock

trading, which would be great for the country, bad for my book. then i realized, oh, no, they'll never actually do it. everyone says they're for it, but there's always a reason they don't. >> the new book is entitled "filthy rich politicians, swamp creatures, latte liberals and ruling class elites cashing in on america." matt lewis, thank you very much for coming on this morning, and congratulations on the book. >> thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe," more on donald trump's new plans for expanding the scope of presidential power if he wins a second term. plus, our next guest is questioning whether the tennessee state government can still be considered a democracy. we'll dig into what happened after republican super majority gained control and still wasn't satisfied. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance...

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lyndon b. johnson is very similar to joe biden. how are they the same? they're both democrat socialist. lyndon b. johnson was the majority leader in the senate. does that sound familiar? he was vice president to kennedy. joe was vice president to obama. he was appointed as the president after jfk was assassinated, then he was elected. his big socialist programs were the great society, the great society were big government programs to address education, medical care, urban problems, rural poverty, transportation, medicare, medicaid, food stamps and welfare. the office of economic opportunity and big labor and labor unions. now, lbj had the great society, but joe biden had build back

better. and he still is working on it. the largest public investment in social infrastructure and environmental programs that is actually finishing what fdr started, that lbj expanded on, and joe biden is attempting to complete. >> this commercial paid for by the joe biden re-election campaign 2024. >> i was going to say -- >> yeah. >> oh, my god. >> let's get this straight. >> the -- >> let's get this straight. >> yeah. >> she is talking to a group of people who are angry that medicare became a program of the united -- that are angry that american colleges have been invested in by the government and have become the greatest institutions of learning on the planet. shegs she is angry that american universities and colleges constantly rank at the very top, among the best institutions in the world.

and that medicare takes care of senior citizens. she is angry that rural hospitals and that nursing homes that your mom, your dad, your family members may go to, are supported by medicaid. so she's angry that the federal government has provided a safety net for senior citizens, for medicaid, for prescription drugs, for -- she's angry that joe biden, i guess, gene, she's angry that joe biden has now expanded health care benefits for veterans. she is angry that joe biden is trying to help the least fortunate americans. i mean, seriously, it could not have been more of an advertisement for joe biden. >> yeah. absolutely. it's incredible. she just lists every good thing that's happened in the country,

you know, since fdr. she listed transportation. apparently, she's angry at the interstate highway system, i guess? i don't know what her beef is. it's really crazy. so who are these people she's talking to? who are these people in the audience who are going to nod along and applaud and say, "oh yeah, all that stuff is horrible"? it might be a few people in her corner of northwest georgia, but i don't think she can find very many americans anywhere else who are going to agree with her, that all of the stuff is terrible and we need to get rid of, you know, medicare and social security and medicaid and, oh yeah, let's have crappy universities instead of what we have now. it is incredible, just incredible. it is really loopy and nuts. >> you know, willie, i grew up

spending summers with my grandmom in northwest georgia. >> yup. >> i can tell you, the good people of northwest georgia, they like their medicare. >> mm-hmm. >> they like the fact that their moms and dads, that their grandmoms and granddads can go to assistant living facilities as senior citizens when need be. and the government is there to help in the form of medicaid. they like the fact that rural hospitals in northwest georgia get a hell of a lot of funding. a hell of a lot of funding from medicaid, right? there's this idea that republican politicians love to push, "oh, only the others in urban centers get medicaid." no, no, no, no. ask your hospital provider in rural america, in dalton, georgia, how important medicaid

is for senior citizens, for, well, working americans in dalton. they will tell you, really important. how do i know? because when i was a member of congress, like, they sat me down and said, "okay, republican boy, like, let me explain this to you. senior citizens all over your district depend on medicaid. they depend on medicare. they depend on all of these things." again, she's attacking, attacking joe biden for getting one bipartisan win after another bipartisan win after another bipartisan win. >> marjorie taylor greene, dnc sleeper agent, that's what it looked like yesterday. >> yeah. >> as you said, she is speaking to a group of a few hundred people in that room. >> right. >> who share the beliefs she espoused there, which i don't think, to your point, she necessarily even believes, because so many of her voters depend on those things. by the way, your former cloegs

colleagues at the white house, jen, wrote the clip and said, "caught us. president biden is working to make things easier for americans." >> those are some of the moments when you're sitting in the white house, and i imagine they were doing this when it happened, and you're watching in disbelief. did that actually just happen? they're probably sending it around on email. they're trying to figure out what the right thing to do is, to lift this up. i'm sure they were happy she also discovered lbj, a well-known president by most people. she seemed to just discover who that guy was. yes, that is exactly, as everyone at this table has been saying, what joe biden has been trying to run on. the protector of how government can work for you. protector of your health benefits, protector of your rights. he is still working on build back better. by the way, if every democrat would say that, that'd be helpful to joe biden, too. yes, in the white house, i assume they were sitting there thinking, don't mess this up. what should we do, tweet it,

reply, be funny, be serious? do we let it live as it is? i think they did a good job figuring out a good tweet there. >> you know better than anybody, this white house didn't shy away from the lbj comparisons early on. they wanted to say, we're being transformative, trying to change how government can serve its citizens, whether fdr or lyndon johnson. this is a gift from a far-right congresswoman, but it goes to what the white house is doing now, leaning in on economic issues. polls suggest a lot of americans don't feel great about how the economy is going, though the metrics suggest improvement. inflation cooling. bidenomics, they've coined the phrase. the president several times this week, did a couple week ago, as well, is going to deliver speeches on this. goldman sachs suggests that chances of recession are fading. there is risk, throwing both arms around the economy, but right now it is a risk worth taking. >> gene, i'll say the same thing to the biden administration we said to the trump

administration. well, we said of the trump administration, stop acting crazy. run on the economy. >> yeah. >> with the biden administration, i'd say the same thing. you have record low um employment the last year. you have generational highs for the dollar the last year. you look at our gdp compared to the rest of europe, the rest of the world. it's pretty damn good. i mean, you look at our gdp. we've skyrocketed up to $25 trillion. china is stuck at $17 trillion. you add our gdp with that of europe. we double. we double. we double china. united states and europe. california has higher gdp, has a bigger economy than france, than great britain, than india. >> yeah. >> you name it. texas, a bigger economy than

russia. talk about the economic miracle. talk about bringing this country out of covid, out of lockdown, and how we are stronger and better. one economist after another has been saying we can't get out of this without a recession. we are going to crash and burn. now, as jonathan said, you know, we have a 20% chance, according to goldman sachs. that's about average over the past 40 years of what economists have said our chances are of going into recession over the past year. >> yeah. >> run on the economy. >> absolutely. >> talk about the economics. talk about how, by the way, and dorks on the podcast today will go, oh, these numbers don't add up. 75% of americans -- i think they told pew -- they feel good about where they are economically. feel good about where they are economically.

lean in, biden. >> absolutely. >> lean in. >> absolutely. he's very smart to lean into bidenomics, and this is the right time to do it. the economic numbers last week were terrific for the administration. year-over-year, inflation at 3%. that's the lowest since some time in 2021. it's not quite down to the 2% the fed wants, but 3% is pretty good. wages are rising faster than prices for the fourth month in a row. we are apparently having a soft landing without a recession, which is a great achievement. you have to credit the federal reserve. if you're president, you take credit for it, too. the thing is, even though there's this lag between where

the economy is and what people feel about the economy, that seems to be catching up. there's a -- you know, this benchmark university of michigan study of consumer sentiment that they issue monthly. it came out last week. there was the biggest one-month jump since 2005 in consumer sentiment, up to 72.2% from 64-point something. that's a solid indicator and must have cheered the biden administration, that people are starting to feel that, hey, things are getting better. people always feel that things are okay for me, but the economy in general is bad. people are starting to translate that feeling of things are okay for me, to things are okay for the country. >> jen, you've done this white house communication thing. >> mm-hmm. >> explain this to me.

how can it be that 75% of americans think their situation is good or very good? now with consumer confidence about 75% of americans think things are not only good for me, they're good for the entire economy. how do you have numbers like that? how do you have record low unemployment numbers, all these other things, and people still kind of not connecting it to joe biden, not connecting it to his policies, and also just generally saying, oh, i feel kind of skeptical about the future of the country? >> you see it in some of the numbers. polling isn't perfect, but some of the numbers of people who feel dissatisfied with joe biden's handling of the economy, which has been perplexing, frustrating, maddening to them since i was there a year ago. one of the challenges they have is, right now, there's not a, aside from the marjorie taylor greene example, a conflict, a contrast that is being drawn day-to-day. yes, the president is out there

cutting ribbons. he is visiting factories. that is getting local press coverage, which is unvaluable, but it is not breaking through in the same, broad way that they probably need. that will change, and i think they're betting on this with two factors. one, when it is biden/trump, and he is drawing a contrast on what they'd each do for the economy. the second is when they spend more money on paid media, which he hasn't spent a lot of money yet. we saw it in the numbers. that's a good thing, but that's where they can drill the message home in a way that's easier than trying to break through with ribbon cuttings. >> mika, what voters said is, yes, all the economic data are true, the ones joe laid out, record unemployment. yes, i see the build back better signs where they're repairing a bridge in my town. but inflation, things cost too much. last week, we get the number that inflation is down to 3%. perhaps that begins to change the perception. >> yeah, they have to start actually feeling those

improvements, but also that lack of connection. i mean, we've seen it just anecdotally talking to democrats and republicans. they don't necessarily feel ready to think about it. the timing of this could change as we get closer. also, as we move closer to the republican primaries, donald trump remains the dominant frontrunner. according to the "morning consult tracker," he is 40 points ahead of his closest rival, ron desantis. there is real apprehension about what a second trump term might look like. "the new york times" published a piece that gives us the best look yet at just how far trump might take his obsession with authoritarians and personal political loyalty. according to "the times," trump and his enablers plan to, quote, alter the balance of power by increasing the president's authority over every part of the federal government. if trump wins, they plan on

stacking the government with trump loyalists, regardless of their personal or professional limitations. they will bring independent agencies, like the federal communications commission and federal trade commission under direct presidential control. "the times" reports the ex-president, quote, wants to revive the practice of impounding funds, refusing to spend money congress has appropriated for programs a president doesn't like. and trump intends to strip employment protections from tens of thousands of career civil servants, making it easier to replace them if they are deemed obstacles to his agenda. it's a move that could undermine confidence in the civil service system while consolidating power in the white house in an unprecedented way. joining the conversation, we have retired cia officer marc polymeropoulos, an nbc news

security and intelligence analyst, and staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum. joe, it is interesting. >> yeah. >> it seems a lot of the reporting from "the new york times" is, quite frankly, frightening, but i also could see donald trump taking that and turning it into a win as he appeals to his followers. >> well, we had molly jong-fast last night on the special saying the trump team loved "the new york times" article, which tells you all you need to know about the trump team. loved being portrayed as mussolini type, wanna-be-fascist. anne applebaum, i wondered if you got any royalties at all, because it was lifted straight from the twilight of democracy. what you wrote about orban, what orban was doing in hungary and what was happening in poland. because you talk about how orban

used the power of regulation to run off people in the media that were opposed to him. i mean, he didn't go kick down the doors and arrest them. he used, you know -- trump is talking about using the ftc -- or the fcc. he did something just like that to chase off anti-business types. he would do that with his version of the federal trade commission. i mean, you go on and on. you go down the list, and this looks like -- i mean, this is lifted straight from, you know, orban's playbook. >> it really is. when i read that article, i thought, this sounds so familiar. it sounds like what orban did in hungary. it sounds like what erdogan did in turkey. it also sounds like what hugo chavez did in venezuela. this isn't a right wing or left wing playbook, this is a playbook that's designed to destroy whatever checks and balances there are in the system, to remove potential

critics, anybody who can check presidential power. it's also designed to remove experts. you know, ask yourself, do you want the pollution in your local river measured by somebody's cousin who is loyal to donald trump, or would you rather it be measured by a scientist who knows about water pollution? apply that standard that almost everything in government, and you will get what happens in countries where expertise, where a form of meritocracy, where all those things are taken out of the system and where, instead, you have the creation of an effective one-party state, where the only criteria for being in government, in any position, is loyalty. then you will pretty soon, i mean, it doesn't happen immediately, but you will eventually get a deterioration of the state. that seems to be what they want. >> you know, willie, again, anne's book talks about examples, time and time again,

going back as far back as you want to go back, about how complete loyalty replaces competence. >> right. >> when that happens, the state sort of collapses. what happens when the state collapses? it only makes the strongman stronger. >> that's the plan. that's all by design. as anne was just saying. marc, as you game this out a little bit, you read the piece, and as we said in the last hour, the trump team is now just saying this out loud. it was implied and we read into it in the first term, and now they're saying, we're unleashed. no general kelly. no general mattis. it'll be all our people in there, and donald trump will do whatever he wants. what does that look like to you from the intelligence agency in which you served, the military and all these elements of government? >> well, look, willie, in january of 1993, i took an oath the second i walked into cia headquarters. i wrote it down this morning. i will support and defend the

constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic. that fidelity to the constitution, that's not a bedrock, that is the bedrock of the cia. what that means for the men and women there is that they are not loyal to an individual. they don't look to the president as the supreme being. you know, we don't live in an autocracy. it's chilling to, i think, the men and women who do things like my colleagues did, spend one, two, three years in afghanistan, iraq, syria, defending the united states, protecting americans from terrorism from our enemies, but are they going to be doing so by looking over their shoulder? are they sufficiently loyal? if this didn't send a chill down the spine of those who care about democracy, i really don't know what would. it reminds me of my time in the middle east. saddam hussein had this video of the purge of the iraqi-backed party. it sent a chill across the region. is that what we want for america?

the notion we're talking about purges, that is profoundly un-american, un-democratic, and i think it should worry many people. >> marc, you talk about those, how this impacts those who love the country from within, but i was in europe last week at the nato summit, and shadowing the entire gathering, as triumphant as it was as the alliance grew, was this fear about what could come next. the fact that trump could return to the global stage, that he could be president again after next year's election, and what that would mean for the alliance. talk about how this, reporting like this shows these are undemocratic impulses that the trump team wants to enact if re-elected. doesn't it reinforce the worries in the capitals of some of our closestjonathan. i think what it'd be like to work at an embassy in washington, where you're reporting back on the american political system. throughout history, both in our country and other countries, as well, you know, we see individuals, demagogues who make

noise but don't matter. yet, donald trump is leading by far, the leading contender for the republican nomination. that's what i think really scares, particularly our allies in europe. it's going to go across the board, from things such as what happens with ukraine, you know, what is the lasting power of the u.s. and the western resolve? really, to all of our foreign policy, you know, goals around the world. this is something president biden addressed at the nato summit. he was asked this and was definitive, that the aid to ukraine would be longlasting. but if you're an observer of the u.s. political scene from overseas, you can't help but be concerned. president biden brought us back. nato is reinvigorated. people in europe certainly remember that president trump wanted to remove the united states from nato. his advisers have said that quite openly. that is something to be alarmed about. and, look, this should be something that is, you know, part of the conversation here in the united states about what we want america to be like.

unfortunately, as joe and others said this morning, this strongman tendency gets a lot of play, and the maga world likes what they saw in "the new york times" piece. >> yeah, they do. marc polymeropoulos, thank you very much for your insight this morning. on that, anne applebaum, in your article for "the atlantic," entitled "is tennessee a democracy," you explain what happens when a party wins everything but wants more. quote, to stay in office in a state where few people vote and districts are gerrymandered, tennessee legislators need to appeal to only a tiny number of very dedicated, very partisan people. the competition for those votes can quite quickly turn into a competition for who can sound most radical. you continue, there's another element. call it the lesson of sumner county, the place where republicans won everything, control everything, and yet still feel aggrieved and victimized. as in hungary or poland or in

venezuela, the experience of radicalism can make people more radical. total control of a political system can make the victors not more magnanimous, but more frustrated, not least because they learn that total control still doesn't deliver what they think it should. no county commission or state legislature can possibly meet the demands of a quasi-religious movement that believes it has god on its side and that its opponents herald the apocalypse. but that doesn't mean they give up. it just means they keep trying, using any tool available. eventually, they arrive at the point described by tom lee, the lawyer for the sumner county election commission, "it's not enough to get your majority and get your way, they have to make the minority lose their voice."

anne, if you could tell us more about the lesson of sumner county and possibly how it can replicate or is replicating nationally. >> so, sumner county, it feels almost unfair to pick on them, but it's a county in tennessee that's controlled by not even republicans but by a group that calls itself constitutional republicans. there are no democrats in sumner county. they haven't won an election there in a couple decades. what you see is the radicalization of those who are there. so the division is between constitutional republicans and normal republicans, who they call rhinos. there is a constant attempt to show that this is a -- they're making a break with the past. they're firing the hr director. they're refuing to let the electoral commission move into new offices. these are small, tiny, local issues, but they're demonstrative of what happens when you have a one-party system, a one-party state.

of course, we all saw it in tennessee on a bigger scale a few months ago when we saw the tennessee legislature expel two black members who had protested on the floor of the legislature. one of the reasons they did that was because their microphones had been cut off. they weren't being allowed to speak. there were demonstrations outside in the run-up to those events because of a mass shooting in nashville. people wanted some action. on the floor, nothing was happening. it was as if there were no politics. it was one of the effects of having a super majority, which the republicans have in tennessee. they don't really have to listen to anybody. they don't have to listen to the public, don't have to listen to the democrats. they don't have to listen to political opponents because, you know, they're there based on a tiny group of partisans who show up to vote. and the lesson, again, is that when you have that kind of control, it doesn't make you nicer. it doesn't make you more

magnanimous. you don't say, well, we control everything now. let's let our opponents speak for a while. the opposite is happening. it is more and more difficult for democrats to be heard in the legislature and more broadly. of course, you know, what happens there? i picked on tennessee, but there are a number of other states that could have been, too, where you have almost the same phenomenon. >> gene, they get the super majority. >> yeah. >> by sounding aggrieved, by talking about what victims they are, how put upon they are, what triggered snowflakes they've become. they've become cultural castrated, thrown aside, weak. you know, then as anne says, they get in power and what do they do? absolute power. they have a super majority. what do they do? they talk about how aggrieved they are. >> right.

>> how triggered. they're such snowflakes. they're victims, every day, they're victims. seriously? this victimhood that republicans now wallow in, it may help them become super majorities in some deep red states, but you can't claim to be the victim, and you can't claim to be grieved by the powered that be if you have a super majority. you are the powers that be. >> yeah. that's true. and the problem is that, you know, if you have a super majority, you have all power, yet you're still aggrieved -- and grievance is still the main thing, the only thing you do -- you know, at some point, you have to run the county, right? you have constituents who need county service.

you have those who need improvements, who need a government that functions and that functions well. i guess, i wonder if that maybe is when this eventually breaks, when people see that they're not getting out of government anything but grievance. they're not getting what they need. how long can this last? i hope the answer isn't, you know, years and years and years. i hope at some point, that wave has to crest and break. >> jen, help me out here. i used to be a member of the republican party. when did they become such victims? when did they just wallow? >> woe is them, poor them. >> when did that happen, that they were little snowflakes that

were constantly aggrieved by this, by that? the whining, oh, the high-pitched whining coming from people talking about their manhood. like, the democrats are taking their manhood away. the democrats are making them do this, making their children read these books. again, such whining. this is, by the way, for people that are on the younger side, this is new. >> well -- >> for the most part, like, republicans used to make fun of democrats for being whiners. it's switched sides now. >> it's beyond whiners, i think. it's also creating fear among their followers, right? >> yes. >> we need to take away these books because they're indoctrinating your children. i mean, seriously, request the bluest eyes indoctrinating your children. we can't have discussions because it'll make your children members of the lgbtq community. not true.

it is aggrieved, but then it is creating fear so they can keep people with them. yes, it's recent. i don't know the year it started, but we've definitely seen a rise in that with groups like moms for liberty and others that have started over the past couple of years, too. >> moms for liberty, were they the ones that were cheering the lady who brought up hitler? >> yeah, they quoted hitler, then they cheered hitler. they're trying to take books off. they're yelling at school board members. >> i'm not going to -- and then somebody said, "i will not criticize her for quoting hitler," and then everybody cheered and gave her a standing ovation. >> they present themselves as moms for liberty. i think that sounds good. meanwhile, they're targeting people, accusing people of pedophilia inaccurately. this is creating fear, and that's the goal. then they can keep people with them. >> the leader of the party pulled an incredible trick. donald trump, billionaire, flies around in a plane with his name on it, lives in a castle by the

beach, and he is a victim and has been since the beginning. they're coming for me. if they can get to me, they can get to you. >> yeah. >> now, mika, it's a witch hunt. they don't like what i did for the country, so they're coming that take me down. we're victims together. that's the message. >> joe biden will see these victims at the next groundbreaking as they receive the money for bridges and roads and whatever else. it is absurd and stokes fear and anger. the new piece online this morning for "the atlantic," anne applebaum, thank you very much for that. we appreciate it. it's great to have you on the show. still ahead on "morning joe," is america ready for bipartisan running mates in 2024? democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia and republican former governor of utah jon huntsman appear to be testing the waters for a third party run. nbc's vaughn hillyard talked to

both men about it. he'll join us live from new hampshire. plus, there's a way to stop donald trump from becoming president that has nothing to do with his legal troubles. we'll explain that. also ahead, last year, crypto was the next big thing. now, not so much. we'll dig into the rise and fall of the virtual currency. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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to join us now. call or go online to start changing lives today. the 2024 presidential field could be getting a bit more crowded. that's because senator joe manchin is not ruling out a third party run next year. the west virginia democrat tells

nbc news that he is not taking anything off the table. manchin joined former republican governor jon huntsman in new hampshire yesterday. along with the group, no labels, which is laying the groundwork to field a third party presidential campaign. joining us live from manchester, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. you spoke to both manchin and huntsman. not only what did they tell you about a potential 2024 presidential bid, because, obviously, they're doing something leaning toward that, why are they doing this? >> reporter: right. mika, let's lay the groundwork for everybody that is not tuned in to no labels at this point. it is time to do it. this is not some, you know, organization that is spending a couple thousand dollars on mailers or campaign flyers. this is a group that is about at its $70 million war chest that they aim to create. that is what this group is.

they have been around for 13 years. they are the ones behind the problem solvers caucus in congress, and this time, they're getting involved in presidential politics and will potentially put forward a bipartisan ticket, one that includes a republican and a democrat. last night was a notable step for this organization, because they went out on what you can call the campaign trail. in their middle of the efforts to qualify for the ballot in all 50 state, they went out in new hampshire alongside not only jon huntsman, the former u.s. ambassador to china and former governor of utah, but joe manchin, arguably the most influential member of the u.s. senate right now. hear part of my conversation with both men. >> don't you believe that this country is as divided as they want to make you believe? washington is divided, making you pick a side. there's one side, the american side. that's where people want to be. >> reporter: so if you believe

that, if that's where the american public is, would you be open to running for a third party ticket? >> let's see what happens. maybe they'll come to their senses and start doing the job they were elected to do. >> for us to do the same old thing is like a little bit insane. >> reporter: could a bipartisan ticket work? >> i think, eventually, there could be that possibilities, once the american people are frustrated enough with the status quo that isn't working. that's going to be driven by the american people. >> reporter: is 2024 that opportunity? >> don't know. >> don't know. >> reporter: of course, joe manchin told me that he will not make his decision on whether to mount this no labels presidential run until next year. the thread of a joe manchin presidential candidacy against the leader, president biden of his own party, will be out there for at least six more months, we should expect. of course, the other concern from national democrats who i talk to is the fact that could a

joe manchin candidacy potentially siphon off votes from the likes of the democratic nominee, joe biden, and help boost the trump candidacy? >> right. >> there's a lot of variables at play, though, because we don't know if joe manchin is going to do it, and we don't know who the republican, jon huntsman or somebody else? there's a lot of question marks as this group prepares to put itself on the ballot across the country. >> nbc's vaughn hillyard live in manchester, new hampshire. thank you very much. joe, you know, i mean, to me, that seemed a little too obviously coy on the part of manchin and huntsman. at the same time, no labels could play a pretty huge role in 2024. >> i mean, they could. it may not go exactly the way people are thinking it may go. i mean, no labels may have a variety of plans, a variety of options. they may have a national ticket, or they may have individual tickets. they could have conservative tickets in swing states. they could have, you know, liz cheney and a conservative

democrat, and put them in ballots in swing states that might disproportionately hurt donald trump. they could also have several other options. they could have a national ticket, that ticket there would hurt joe biden. so, again, we don't know yet, so no need to suffer twice. instead, let's talk to newsweek editor at large, tom rogers, and republican strategist and political analyst susan del percio. they're co-authors of, "one key way to stop donald trump from being our next president." we'll talk about that in a minute. first, tom, how devastating, as some people believe, how devastating would a ticket with joe manchin and jon huntsman be to joe biden's opportunities to win wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia, arizona? >> i think absolutely devastating. there's just absolutely no

evidence that a no labels ticket like that would not be a total spoiler for joe biden or the democrats. there just has not been, in 50 years, a single electoral vote that has been garnered by an independent candidate, even ross pirro, who got 19% of the vote. what it will do, and there is evidence of this, including 2016 with the independent vote siphoned away from hillary clinton and gave the election to donald trump in swing states, that there is just no way a third party ticket like that isn't going to help donald trump be re-elected president. >> susan, we know how thin the margins are state by state, in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. we're talking about 10,000, 20,000 votes in some cases. that would really be all it could take, potentially, to flip one of those states to donald trump. >> absolutely. what i think is interesting is, you know, some people say it could be a liz cheney, could be, you know, a state by state candidacy, but here's the

problem, even if it is a conservative, it doesn't take votes away from donald trump. what it does is it takes those same republicans who voted for joe biden because they couldn't take donald trump, it puts them not in the biden column, it puts them in a third party column. so it just helps donald trump. we've seen in 2020 how the turnout was there for both parties. so you mess around with that 5% to 7%, no matter how you break it up, it goes right to donald trump's happening. >> in 2016, without a green party candidate, donald trump would have never been elected. in 2000 without ralph nader, george bush wouldn't have been elected. you say, wait a minute, democrats have won the national vote, the popular vote, what, seven out of eight times? >> yeah. >> why in the world haven't they been president that much? well, take ralph nader's 2% or 3% out, then the green party

candidate in 2016, between her trips to russia and hanging out with vladimir putin, take her 2% or 3% out, donald trump is never president. george bush is never president. >> 2004 was the only time the republicans won the popular vote in this century. there is alarm among democrats about this. they do perceive this is a much greater threat to their chances than to donald trump or whoever the republican nominee might be. susan, talk about the piece you guys wrote. you know, illuminate us as to the article you're writing. what is the one thing joe biden could do? >> actually, if we could change the landscape of who is voting in the primary process, especially when it comes to nonaffiliated voters. right now, there's -- we know overwhelmingly, voters now self-identify as independent. but there's registration numbers which are different. those are voters. that's how they choose to,

quote, not label themselves. so if you could change the landscape, for example, in new hampshire, where it is already practice, if you get a big, independent, nonaffiliated turnout for someone other than donald trump in the republican primary because there's no competition on the democratic side, that turnout becomes higher, it can influence how the primary goes. but also, it's important for no labels. i mean, i understand -- i believe they're starting out with good intention, but if they couldbehind something like this, it'd take their commitment to energy, and use it for good. >> there are 27 states in the country that have open primaries, meaning in some form or another, nonaffiliated voters who haven't registered as democrat or republican can vote in the primary. but the turnout of those nonaffiliated voters in primaries is really, really low.

what we think no labels could do, because they're not going to go away. they want a role here. they raised almost $70 million, which was their target. they're going to be a factor. but they've also vowed that they do not want donald trump re-elected as president so -- >> by the way, can we stop there for one second? let's underline that. they are no labels. there is no doubt the democratic party, the democratic consultant, they're all freaking out about no labels. no doubt about it. but anybody that knows anything about no labels, that organization, knows they really -- there are no labels, but they have one goal. one goal. that is that donald trump is not elected president in 2024. >> right. >> that's their goal. they hope maybe it takes the form of an independent candidate, but, again, i've got no dog in this fight. i just don't, all right? i don't. i'm telling you, i hear all the whining about no labels.

it cuts against everything i've heard and i know from reporting on that organization. one goal in mind. stop donald trump. forgive me for slowing down, it's just i've heard this whining for so long. people need to understand this. who knows? maybe they're all liars. maybe they're all liars at no labels. maybe they're lying. maybe they've been playing me for a year. but for a year, that's what they've been saying, "this is our only goal." >> given it is their only goal, and it's the right goal, what susan and i believe is they have the wrong tactic. don't run a third party presidential ticket in the general election. go to the primary process. get those nonaffiliated voters to vote in the republican primary. moderate centrist vote can elect in the republican process. >> by the way, this is a brilliant approach. go ahead. >> have them vote, spend their money there, make sure donald trump is not crowned the

republican nominee, and that way, they can achieve their goal. not the way they're doing it. >> brilliant approach. >> susan, i mean, is there any sense they're asking this? they seem hell bent on running a candidate. to joe's point, they have a state admission to not elect donald trump, but everyone is worried they may inadvertently do so, unless they do shift tactics and potentially pull the plug on this between now and when votes start being cast. >> right. i believe their objective is to stop donald trump, but now they need an off-ramp. >> right. >> they've raised all this money. they want to have a say in the presidential race. so either you do a third party and you lose, or you pick another way of going and using that energy and those resources. that's why tom and i thought, let's give them an off-ramp. that's what it is. no labels can actually represent the people who want no labels. >> i love the off-ramp. tom, let's talk about disney real quick. we've obviously been bringing it

up as it relates to a certain republican presidential candidate. bob iger, you know, we like watching bob iger knock politicians around, have a good time. but right now, the market is knocking disney around. when iger came back, it was kind of like -- thought it was going to be like when steve jobs went back to apple, right? made all the difference in the world. man, the market forces, i think, are even tougher on bob iger than bob iger expected. >> i think that's absolutely right, joe. i think bob iger admitted last week in his cnbc interview that the problems disney has are huge and much bigger than an tis anticipated. >> suggested giving up abc. >> yeah, the lack of viewership issues, decline in ad revenues, decline in subscriber fees are

just really not problems that are easily solvable. when you add to that their film division isn't performing, when you add to that the fact that their streaming has really slowed -- >> explain something to me. how do you own "avengers," "sta you own all of these movie franchise that is my children and i watched all the time, how do you own all of this and it doesn't make money for you, sufficient money? >> it makes money. part of the problem is they have been too reliant on those franchises to the point that many believe they have diluted the franchises and have not come back with enough original program to go really expand their base, and that's why iger wants to buy hulu, they want to integrate hulu with disney plus, make it a broader service. comcast, the parent company here standing in the way. >> you know, you have been around the block for a little

while in the whole tv thing, and i should go to break. i just got to ask you a question i'm so fascinated by. "fools rush in" about the ill fated aol time warner merger. the intro, the boards are together, and the aol guys have their chests puffed out and time warner is time warner, new media, well, it's new. doesn't mean that it's better, and people were predicting then they were going to take over the world. michael wolf had television is the new television, started the same way. it was the tech guys that were sitting there, and they're going to take over and by the way, i'm not defending this medium at all. i just find it fascinating people have been declaring the end of linear tv now for 25 years, and everybody that has bet on that has gotten their

heads knocked off. so what's happened? why is, as wolf says, one of the great book titles in media in a long time, television is the new television. why is it that we hear this every five years or every five days on blogs that television is dead, and yet it's just like cockroaches, we just stay around. you can't get rid of us? >> it's a great question, and i think the answer is linear television for a while was able to reinvent itself with more choice, more channels, more programs to watch, and you can never bet against more choice for television viewers. what's happened now is streaming with netflix and other services has provided a lot more choice and a lot cheaper. if you can provide more choice on demand with a lot of original programming that satisfies the choice issue while making it less expensive against linear

television and a hundred dollar cable bundle, that's a tough consumer proposition for linear to reinvent itself and win again, so i think disney's problems are real and ron desantis is the least of bob iger's issues right now. >> tom, it was extraordinary to hear bob iger in the cnbc interview and say we're thinking about selling espn, that was the bell cow, that funds the things we do. a ceo does not say something like that by accident. do you think there's a chance they cut that loose, disney does? >> they certainly put that out there. the problem is he also committed himself to espn and sports as a long-term disney goal, and so much of sports rights and how to fund sports rights now is integral with abc. the problem i see is how do you have a long-term commitment to sports rights and at the same time get rid of the abc network

and television stations, that's not an easy dance, but sounded like they're trying to go down that path. >> hard to run the super bowl and the olympics on hulu. at least right now. we'll see. tom rogers. >> you never know. >> you never know. >> tom rogers, susan del percio, thank you so much for being with us. their new piece is online this week for "newsweek" and it's a great one. about a third of americans are waking up this morning under excessive heat advisories. we'll have the latest on the historic temperatures spreading across the country. plus, oscar, grammy, and tony award winner, david byrne, joins us, with a look at his new broadway musical "here lies love." "morning joe" is back in a noemt. s love." "morning moment. joe" is back in a no moment it kills 99% plaque bacteria. and forms an antibacterial shield.

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georgia's supreme court rejects a bid by donald trump to throw out fulton county's 2020 election probe. we'll have the latest on the former president's legal troubles. plus, president of the screen actor's guild fran drescher joins the conversation amid the historic hollywood strikes taking place right now. and tomorrow, on "morning joe," you won't want to miss this, speaker emita nancy pelosi will be our guest. a 3rd hour of "morning joe" is ahead in just one minute. ahead in just one minute and now, rewards members get 2 free strips of our new premium bacon for a limited time.

2024 is our final battle. with you at my side, we will demolish, the deep state. we will expel the warmongers

from our government. we will drive out the globalists, we will cast out the communists, marxists, fascists, we will throw out the sick political class that hates our country. >> donald trump on saturday appealing to his far right base promising to take on the so-called deep state that is against him. there is new reporting this morning on trump's much darker vision for the country. his advisers are crafting autocratic plans for the presidency if he wins in 2024. that reporting is in line with a warning from trump's former chief of staff about what a second trump term could mean for america. meanwhile, a prominent democrat is leaving the door open for a third-party run for president. we'll show you what senator joe manchin is saying about that possibility. >> come on, man. >> also, the latest from eastern europe where russian president vladimir putin is promising to retaliate for an attack on a

crucial supply bridge for his forces. a lot to get to on this tuesday morning on july 18th. good morning, everyone. along with joe, willie and me, we have former white house press secretary and msnbc host, jen psaki. host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire, pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson, and author, and nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss, we begin this hour with donald trump's potential radical plans for a second term coming into clearer view. according to new reporting from "the new york times," trump and his allies are planning a, quote, sweeping expansion of presidential power should the former president retake the white house. this would reportedly include giving trump the power to withhold funds from any government program or agency that he doesn't like, including

the federal trade and federal communications commissions. within those agencies the times reports trump intends to quote, strip employment protections against tens of thousands career civil servants, making it easier to replace them if they remain obstacles to the agenda. the state department, defense department and intelligence agencies to replace people who he has deemed part of the sick political class that hates our country. all of this would be done under the framework of a decades old conservative legal theory which rejects the idea of the three branch system of government and the fundamental concept of checks and balances. instead, according to the times, supporters of that theory argue that article ii of the constitution gives the president complete control of the executive branch so congress cannot empower agency heads to

make decisions or restrict the president's ability to fire them. in a statement to the times, the trump campaign spokesperson did not deny the plans but instead said the former president has quote, laid out a bold and transparent agenda for his second term. and this is one of those vintage trump moments, joe, where his base will love this in some ways. >> they'll love it as we talked about last night because it suggests that he's strong and authoritarianism is what the republican party. it used to be small government. small government's been replaced by authoritarianism. you can look at ron desantis to see if a professional baseball team tweet sympathies to uvalde, he punishes them.

if they're going to celebrate diversity, he uses the power of the centralized state to break corporations, to intimidate corporations. it's authoritarianism, and even cruise liners, even the biggest industries in the state, ron desantis has learned well from donald trump, and you know, trying to force cruise liners to open up during the pandemic without using any safeguards. he does the same with small business owners. this is what donald trump is talking about. this is what orban does in hungary. this was what was happening in poland before the war. the whole idea is use the centralized state to crush any dissent, whether it's in the bureaucracy. loyalty places competence, whether you're talking about it in the media sphere, intimidate,

get rid of media opponents. what about, again, the fcc, donald trump deciding this network or other networks are on the air or not. that's what we're talking about here. talk about the danger, the level of danger to american democracy. >> well, if you love mussolini, you will love what donald trump is talking about for 2025. mussolini followed the unitarian executive theory, too, which meant total power to the dictator, no constraints. this is about as un-american, you will all agree as anything i've ever heard. the reason why this country was founded is as a rebuke to the british king. we wanted to develop a system where you could not have a king. you could not have a dictator. power was under constraint. you talked about the fact that

there's checks and balances, three branches of government. that's all james madison who used to be a conservative hero. now comes along donald trump, the first major candidate in american history to say outright, i want a presidential dictatorship. i can't think of anything that's more out of the american tradition. >> it really is, willie. it's from madison, who was a conservative hero for generations, madison to mousse -- mussolini. to shut down tv stations, to prefer certain businesses to other businesses. it's exactly what fascists do. >> yeah. >> this is pure strongman stuff, and they're saying it out loud. this is what we're going to do. you watched us in the first term, it's going to be worse in the second term. here's trump's former chief of staff, john kelly, warning about a second term of the president.

it would be chaotic, it simply would be chaotic. he would be trying to exceed his authorities, but the sycophants would go along with it. it would be nonstop fight with the president and the courts. any of the people who stayed in the jobs to provide guardrails because they worried about what was behind them, and i say this slightly kidding mr. pillow would be in the oval office giving guidance to donald trump. >> it would be mr. pillow, and sidney powell and the entire crazy lunatic fringe that gathered around donald trump, and that will enable this move toward fascism. i mean, this is textbook fascism. and it's outrageous, it's incredibly dangerous. not just to our system of democracy and our democratic

values. it's just dangerous because he's talking about wanting to essentially fire the people in the federal bureaucracy who know how to run things, to make the country work, to keep our air clean and our water safe, and who keep us safe in the intelligence agencies and in the defense department and everywhere he sees somebody who doesn't tow the line, who doesn't go along with every crazy anti-democratic idea he has, he wants the ability to fire that person and replace his or her with a lackey. that's what he wants, that's what he intends. we should believe him when he says it, and this is a grave danger to the country we know. >> and it's confronted with this possibility, jen, the senior people in the pentagon think

that were trump to return to office, there would be no guardrails. he would be completely unfettered. he also wouldn't have to face voters again. there's no consequences. do they feel like this could be the american experiment itself would be in jeopardy. >> yes. >> so with that in mind, how realistic. how realistic that he could act on some of these. are there checks and balances that could get in his way. could congress pay a roll, assuming they're not republicans bowing down to him? >> i think it's important to remember that some of these agencies that are independent is by tradition, and donald trump has made no indication he's going to respect that. he did not in his first term, and when i speak with national security officials and the pentagon and former officials, they will say a second term is far scarier than a first. now, beyond his intention of

saying, self-pardoning himself should he need, which his legal team and advisers seem to be talking about privately, the other concern here is he could use these regulatory agencies and outside agencies for his own personal benefit. think about the ftc. nobody talks about the ftc as something they care about on a daily basis, but this agency has an enormous amount of control over companies being regulated. he could decide that company is my political enemy. i want that company to benefit so i can financially benefit. >> that's exactly what orban has done. >> yes. >> he doesn't throw people who run businesses into jail, he begins government investigations. he fines them. he taxes them. he levees such a heavy burden on them that by the end, one of his allies will go, hey, listen, why don't you let me buy you out, and you look around, suddenly orban has no opponents in the press. you know, again, he does it

exactly the way you're talking about trump doing it. >> it feeds into the potential for corruption because if you are a private sector company, aren't you going to try to get to the good side of donald trump or somebody that can control which companies are regulated and which are not. it feeds into that as well. to your original question, jonathan, i think the challenge here is whether our system is set up for a second trump term. i mean, the people who have been elected, you may disagree with them politically or their policies, but they have respected for the most part, rule of law, and when agencies need to be independent for good reason, that is not something that trump, and not just trump, desantis and others running for president have indicated they want to do away with these checks and balances that have been a part of our government for hundreds of years. >> and michael beschloss, ron desantis actually offers a very good warning about what happens

in a second trump term with somebody who's learned his lessons instead of just being someone who goes to twitter. this is how you crush businesses. this is how you intimidate ceos. again, i was talking this past weekend to the republican that's worked for the republican party for a generation who said desantis, the free state of florida is joke. this person said i deal with ceos every day that are petrified that ron desantis will notice them. they know he has the ability to use the power of the centralized state to crush them or to make their lives miserable. >> right. and you've got the front runner of the republican party, donald trump, the number two candidate by polls, ron desantis, or desantis, whatever it is.

they're both fascist. they both want authoritarianism. the thing i can't understand, why did donald trump make an effort to announce this the last couple of days. he wants to make people afraid. he wants people to they that authoritarianism and trump are inevitable and bow to him, and make it easier for him to walk in 16 months. >> this is a man who needs to walk in in 16 months if he wants to skirt the law. he's running for president and that's the only way he can avoid the legal issues he's facing. later today, the first pretrial hearing in the federal criminal case involving former president donald trump, and his handling of classified documents. it will take place in a south florida courtroom. lawyers for both trump and codefendant walt nauta are slated to be president. neither trump nor nauta is

expected to intend. the hearing was expected to go over the rules and procedures of how documents containing sensitive information would be handled and presents in the case. nbc news has learned judge aileen cannon has ordered both sides to be prepared to discuss the debate over whether the trial should take place. she originally scheduled the trial to begin on august 1 prosecutors and special counsel jack smith's office suggested the trial begin on december 11th. but lawyers for trump want the trial delayed until after the 2024 presidential election. willie. >> so while this is going on, there's georgia. former president trump has lost his latest attempt to shut down the fulton county, georgia, election interference probe. the georgia supreme court denied a petition by the trump team to stop the fulton county d.a.'s investigation. fani willis is looking into

whether the former president broke the law in their attempts to overturn the georgia election laws. the request was one of two filed by trump's lawyers last week. the petition asked the court to remove willis from the case and to quash a report from the special grand jury she used during the investigation. the nine judge state supreme court ruled unanimously against trump and his lawyers saying they did not prove the extraordinary circumstances required to close the case. a representative for the former president did not immediately respond to an nbc news request for comment. the office for d.a. willis declined to comment as well. john, this sort of folds into your book, "the big lie," about what happened in the state of georgia among many other places. this was a unanimous decision from not exactly in the state of georgia a lefty supreme court, and they said, no, absolutely, this attempt, we're putting it down. the trial or the potential trial moves on. >> and least for now, it's another example of how the

system helped, the legal system here, the court system has held against donald trump's lies. all eyes will be on aileen cannon in georgia. this was a swift rebuke in georgia. georgia has presented a particular challenge for those in the trump world. people i talked to are deeply nervous about it for obvious reasons. if trump can be reelected, the power to pardon himself. can't do that in a state conviction. that's why the d.a. there, fani willis has received so much scrutiny, and there's a ticking clock. she has sent word, this is probably coming down in early august. how carefully should we be watching georgia as it's drowned out by the headlines from the classified documents case? >> well, it's vitally important. we should be watching it very closely and it zooms to the top of the list now. georgia, you recall, is where

there is a tape recording of that phone call between donald trump and brad raffensperger, in which he asks him to find just enough votes, find just enough votes to overturn joe biden's win in georgia. if fani willis believes there is a criminal case to be brought against donald trump in georgia, and it certainly looks like there is to me, then, yes, she needs to move. this is prime time. it's time to move ahead with that case, and as you say, a state conviction cannot be pardoned. it's unclear whether self-pardon would work for for a president in any case, even in a federal conviction, but it certainly doesn't work in a state conviction. and so it's heartening that the georgia supreme court just sort of rejected out of hand this claim that trump was making

about the investigations being improper. now if she's got the goods, it's time to bring the case. coming up, moscow is vowing to retaliate after an attack on a key bridge connecting russia and crimea. we'll have the latest on the ongoing war in ukraine when nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons joins the conversation. "morning joe" is back in a moment. conversation "morning joe" is back in a moment

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russian president vladimir putin is vowing to respond to an attack on the bridge that connects crimea to mainland russia. multiple explosions were reported just before dawn yesterday with russia's government claiming it was hit by two drones. two people were killed until the attack and a third was injured. the kremlin immediately blamed ukraine while the ukrainian public broadcaster cited multiple law enforcement sources

as saying ukraine's intel agency and navy carried it out. nbc news has not confirmed those reports. yesterday, russia also announced it will not extend the agreement to let ukraine export grain through its black sea ports. the kremlin says that decision is unrelated to the attack on the bridge. joe. >> you know, willie when you've been committing war crimes for a year and a half, you kind of have run out of things to do, we're going to have a response to you blowing up the bridge. he's already committed war crimes for a year and a half. >> yeah, and i think he's lost the benefit of the doubt in who blew up that bridge. the ukrainians did it to themselves, i'm not sure many people outside of moscow are believing him. joining us now, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons, who has been covering the war so closely. spent lots of time in russia. we'll start with the latest

bridge attack. there's an attack or explosion and russia says it was ukraine self-sabotaging to gain sympathy from the world, et cetera, et cetera, what's your assessment of what's going on over there. >> they didn't bring down the bridge. they damaged the bridge. russia managed to repair it relatively quickly. you know, it's an emotional blow as well as a strategic blow to president putin. if they did bring the entire bridge down, that would be a major challenge because of the supply chain issues for russia. in many ways, it's psychological warfare. the ukrainians, they haven't said it's them, but clearly frankly is them. it's the ukrainians sending a message to president putin. i mean, listen, i think the grain deal, the bridge, all of this paints a picture of no capitulation by either side. there's no sign that either side is interested in anything other than continuing this conflict.

on the surface, anyway. there's lots going on beneath the surface we don't know about. >> let's talk about what's going on beneath the surface inside of russia. we've seen a scene out of the sopranos with putin, of course, head of the family, lukashenko next door interested in moving in. what's going on internally in russia the best you can tell? >> it's an enormous country, judging watt psychology is, amongst 140 million russians, not easy. in moscow, though, one of the striking aspects is trying to struggle for words, how relaxed it is. how much people are kind of going about their business, how much we've kind of stopped talking about this economically, certainly amongst the privileged in moscow. there's little indication that there's any kind of challenge for them. why is that? is it a kind of nihilism?

is it that genuinely this conflict is a long way away from them, effectively? i will say that i have noticed in the time that i have been there talking to russians more and more to the point now where almost everybody is talking about knowing somebody who's lost somebody. >> and that's what i was going to ask you about. people say it might be afghanistan. others that eventually rose up and got the russians out of afghanistan, complaining here, you've got maybe 100,000 deaths already. i mean, this is just horrific. i mean, you look again, compare that to the united states. we lost about 5,000 men and women in uniform over 20 years in iraq and afghanistan, and it was a great scar on our politics, our culture here. 100,000 dead. where are the mothers, where are the fathers? >> we don't know the number. we don't know the actual number, but it's a lot. there's no question, it's a lot. >> i'm basing it on british

intel, which of course, discussing the casualties could be that high. regardless, it's massive. where are the protests? where are the concerns? >> exactly. that's another way of making the same point. when you travel to russia as i do, you don't notice that level of resistance. a lot of people who might be resistant have left. >> how bad is the brain drain? not to cut in here. i think this may be economically one of the greatest, horrific legacies for russia, the best and the brightest. >> not necessarily president putin. a lot of people who might have voted against him might not there anymore. not to judge how people will react to losing loved ones, i mean, we're seeing really the deep deep polarization on both sides. i think, you know, on both sides there's kind of a version of,

you know, families who have lost loved ones may be reacting to that. more nationalistic. now, in terms of prigozhin, that could be the curtain pulling back, and giving us a sign that there are changes happening. certainly, the psychology of thousands and thousands of russians who have been on the front lines coming back to russia, i think that's an interesting question, so there is all that. having said that, though, what we have seen, just talking about the facts what we have seen is potentially the greatest threat to president putin. prigozhin and the wagner group insurrection failing. >> right. >> putin is still in position. it's just, these are just many different ways of saying, frankly, we don't know what happens next. >> willie, i'm going to be

conjugating that latin phrase, and while i'm doing that, you ask the next question. >> you're seeing in early morning hours muttering that as you walk through central park, authorities come and put a blanket over you. >> obviously it goes back to world war i. >> of course. >> what are you saying, we americans are stupid? that we don't learn languages? >> let me pull it back in your direction again. >> give us the phrase again, and that means. >> it's right and glorious to die for your country. >> see. >> it's just how we learned it in tuscaloosa. >> keir, when we were talking at the start of this, you said there is no sign of capitulation from either side, which is true when you look at the green deal putin pulled out of, which means

ukraine can't export the grain the way it wants to, which was viewed as an olive branch for the u.n. and turkey a year or so ago. how are you viewing this as someone who covers it. how are experts viewing some possible end to this? there's some who have said putin is waiting out the american presidential election. if it's donald trump, that's a good thing for him. he knows donald trump will cave and take his side on this. is that a fair assumption? >> russia has long experienced that the west doesn't last. so you would understand why in the kremlin, they might be thinking that that might be a possibility. i do think that the grain deal, the lapsing of the grain deal. there wasn't much grain being exported at this point, but the deal no longer now today in place is, i think, potentially a sign of the kremlin hunkering down further. back further in his bunker. it's interesting by the way,

china was the primary recipient of a lot of that grain. and of course turkey was part of the negotiation. turkey has made this extraordinary shift towards the west. what does that tell us about how president putin is viewing his position in the world and potentially, i think there are things to understand from that grain deal about the geopolitics beyond just deep concern for many of the poorer countries receiving grain. in terms of the potential for a deal, there's no potential for a deal. this is all about territory, and neither side is interested in seeing anything. we talk about the chinese peace plan. it's not a peace plan. it's a russia keeps its territory. the ukraine peace plan isn't a peace plan, it's ukraine gets all of their territory back. they're victory plans. that's what they are. there's no sign of that, unless something is happening, and

again, it's quite possible, unless something is happening behind the iron curtain, if you like, in kremlinology, which we don't understand, i don't see how we see an end to this anytime soon? >> coming up, joe's conversation with the star-studded cast of this summer's highly anticipated block buster "oppenheimer," that's ahead on "morning joe." we're back in a moment. mer," that's ahead on "morning joe." we're back in a moment (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid,

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that amount would make you wealthier than the richest member of congress right now. but not by very much. and speaking of that, joining us now, senior columnist for the daily beast, matt louis, author of a new book "filthy rich politicians, the ruling class elite cashing in on america," tell us about your book, matt, and who are you looking at here? >> i'm looking at all of them. the richest politician in america is j.b. pritzker, the governor of illinois. the richest congressman, member of congress is probably rick scott, senator from florida. politicians make it hard to know exactly how rich they are, but they write the laws and the disclosures and it's usually a broad range, so we don't know exactly how rich they are, but, look, this book is about how the

rich get elected and the elected get rich. i think both parts of that equation are important, starting with the fact that rich people tend to get elected, in fact, right now, the average member of congress, and i'm not talking about president or senator, but just your average house of representatives member is something like 12 times richer than the average american household. and that gap has grown in recent decades, and i argue that there's some disconnect between our elected officials and we the people, but i think even more corrosive than that is the other side of the equation which is the fact that once people get elected, they almost always get richer, and i think that, you know, if you look at -- talk about how the game is rigged, there is a sense out there that our politicians are using their position to feather their nest, and i think that is undermining trust in elected officials, and

in liberal democracy. and i think it's a problem. >> so, matt, when i served, i mean, most members that i knew in the house were like me. i mean, i came to congress with a couple of hound dogs and a buick sky lark with three tires on it. didn't have a whole lot of money. but everybody i served with, not everybody, but most of the people i served with, you know, didn't have a whole lot of money. very middle class background. when did this change? >> it has been going on for about three or four decades when it is really, i think, kind of reached the level that we're at now, joe. again, we've always had rich presidents, you know, george washington was rich obviously. fdr, theodore roosevelt, the kennedys, that's not a new thing. what is new is that the average member of the house of representatives, and this is the lower chamber, right, it's what

madison wanted to be, you know, something of a deliberative body that represented the people, that was the closest to the american people. the average member of congress, i think it was in 2014 became a millionaire. and so i think that the gap has widened. and in the last four decades, the average member of congress has something like doubled their net worthwhile the rest of us are kind of treading water or going backwards in some cases. we'll go live to florida in the federal criminal case regarding former president trump's handling of classified documents. nbc's ken dilanian joins us with a preview of that ahead on "morning joe." pra eview of that ahead on "morning joe."

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reflect on the new business model, what are we talking about? we're moving around furniture on the titanic. we're all going to be put out of business, and it's crazy because when you're in business and your whole business is predicated on the performer, you take care of that performer. you make them feel respected. >> coming up, amid the historic hollywood shut down, we'll be joined by the president of the screen actor's guild, fran drescher, as actors and screen writers push for better wages and protections. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back

. welcome back. live look at los angeles at a few minutes before the top of the hour. sag-aftra union members are entering their fourth day of strikes as they fight for a better contract. during this time, members are not able to work on camera or behind the scenes, conduct press

for any projects or evenenter negotiations for future roles. fran drescher says ceos will end up on the wrong side of history while they receive hundreds of millions while they plead poverty. ceo bob iger criticized the strike on thursday. take a look at what he said followed by actor shawn gun's response. >> there is a level of expectation they have that is just not realistic. they are adding to a set of challenges this business is already facing that is, quite frankly, very disruptive. it's a shame. it is really a shame. >> i think when bob iger talks about what a shame it is, he needs to remember that in 1980 ceos like him made 30 times what the lowest worker was making. now bob iger makes 400 times

what his lowest worker is. i think that's a [ bleep ] shame, bob. look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if that's just the way corporations work now, that [ bleep ] sucks and you should be a better person and come up with a better answer. >> comcast, which owns nbc universal is one of the entertainment companies represented by the alliance of motion picture and television producers. joining us now, president of the screen actors guild, fran drescher. really good to have you on the show. we've been watching everything you've had to say and also what bob iger had to say. i'm curious what your response is to the fact that he says you guys have a level of expectation that is not realistic. >> you know, the man makes

$78,000 a day, you know, plus a $20 million bonus. he is the last person to talk about what's realistic when the majority of my members can't even meet their health insurance minimum. i think that he never attended one single meeting at the negotiation. he was completely absent except to make that recording at the camp for billionaires where they all arrive on their private jets. so, you know, you can't even talk aboutreality about this. i don't want to make it about him. this is a workers' movement. it's about greed. you know, they get bonuses depending on shareholders' performance. so of course they're going to

try and squeeze everybody to make the stock go up so more people will buy stock. but when your entire business model is the foundation for that is us and you're trying to screw us as if you're like a land baron of feudal medieval times and we're your serfserfs, it's wake up and smell the coffee, the jig is up. it's time for you to recognize that you have to pivot and understand that the business model has changed and the old contract no longer can be negotiated in a way that will give economically the performers their due. >> so what is the pivot exactly?

you hear the arguments about whether or not your likeness can be used. is it an argument about a.i.? isn't the bottom line about money? and what exactly is it that you need in order to make this strike end? and how long do you think members of the unions can stick to this strike? >> well, you know, look, we have unprecedented strike authorization vote from our members, because they're on the ground living this inequity, not these ceos who are living the high life. they feel like they're at the breaking point where they can't take it anymore. another contract for three more years where the minimum for the majority of the members does not reflect the amount that catches

up to inflation. so in real money, what they're offering us would be less than what we were making in 2020. that's what we're supposed to take all the way to 2026? we need at least an 11% increase in the minimums to catch up with inflation. all other labor unions work with inflation, inflationary increases, not our union, not our contract. you know, the caps are the same where they sort of cut you off with residuals since, i think, 1980 or something. the whole thing is outdated and doesn't really apply to the new business model. streaming has so infiltrated this industry and disembowelled

the old business model. so in streaming the name of the game is subscribers. it's not about the longevity of a series. you can see how the public is being trained to accept what's called limited series, very short episodes per season, maybe six or eight, if you're lucky, you get ten. and then the series maybe will go three or four if it's considered successful. when i did "the nanny" some seasons we did 28 episodes, never anything less than 22 or 24. then it continues to have a very long tail of revenue, which pays all of the people that works on the show continuously. so once we got revenue sharing in the form of residuals, it all

worked as long as the business model was predicated on the longevity of the show because of eyeballs and ad dollars. if those two elements were there, the show would stay on. shows stayed on ten years. but now it's not that way, because once the show does the heavy lifting for bringing in a new surge of subscribers and their algorithms tell them that after three or four years, maybe we're making our current subscribers happy, but we're not getting more subscribers. and more subscribers is the name of the game. so we recondition the current subscribers to be happy or disappointed that, oh, my favorite show just ended. but, wait, we'll tantalize them with another flying dragon, one

more big star, one more big director that costs a fortune. and meanwhile, where is our revenue sharing on six or ten episodes a season? we cannot economically live on that. so we have to go into the other pocket, which is what the new business model dictates that was foisted upon us. we have to go in to the subscriptions pocket. and we were completely stonewalled. i don't think they thought that we were going to approach this problem with such an intelligent analysis of this business. but we cannot make incremental changes to an old contract that no longer applies. how much could they possibly give us? we're never going to catch up because the series and episode buys are considerably smaller.

we're seeing more and more shows that don't even have serious regulars on it anymore. so it's time that we shift over. but as soon as they heard that, they stonewalled us. no. and they never opened up that door. and even now they're punishing us because we gave them 12 unprecedented length of days to extend in spite of the fact that the members were afraid that we were weakening. in that time all they did was dupe us into having more time to promote their summer movies, because they gave us nothing in return. so we went on strike. but we have been happy to keep negotiating and they are acting like punishing feudal land barons where the peasants

started to act up and they said, we're not going to talk to you. >> screen actors guild president fran drescher. knowing the value of all the actors and everybody in the industry, the writers, the people who are struggling to make ends meet, we appreciate your coming on. please keep us posted and come back, especially when there are new developments. fran drescher, thank you very, very much for being on the show this morning. it is just one minute past the top of the fourth hour of "morning joe," 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. in just hours, the first pretrial hearing will take place in the case against former president trump and his handling of classified documents after leaving the white house. there are two key items on the agenda. one, the rules and procedures for how documents containing sensitive information will be handled and presented in the case, and two, a date for the

trial to begin. let's go live to fort pierce, florida, and nbc news correspondent ken dilanian. what are we expecting when the hearing begins a little bit later on today? >> good morning, mika. as you said, the big issue on the table is this argument over scheduling. as you know, president trump's lawyers have asked the judge to delay this trial until after the 2024 presidential election, while jack smith, the special counsel, wants the trial to begin in december. there is a chasm between the two sides. judge aileen cannon ordered them yesterday to be prepared to argue about that today. it's not clear whether she'll rule on that issue, but we ought to be able to at least get a sense of her thinking, because the sides are so far apart. trump is arguing he can't get a fair trial, that it will be really hard to pick a jury while he's running for president.

and jack smith is saying, wait a second, you don't get special privileges, we believe a speedy trial is appropriate here. the other thing that will be argued are the rules and procedures about the classified information that is at issue in this case. it looks like trump's lawyers are going to argue there should be no secret evidence, essentially that the jury should be shown everything even though the law does allow the government to redact certain things that could injure national security. that's going to be a fight for the issues around security clearances. the security around this courthouse and the rules and procedures are really onerous. reporters aren't even allowed to bring phones in. once you leave the hearing, you can't go back in. it's going to be difficult to get the news out to folks, but we're going to do our best here,

mika. >> obviously you mentioned the classified documents. they do complicate matters here. there's diametrically opposed views here. let's say the judge sides with him and really delays this trial deep into next year or beyond the election. what sort of recourse would the special counsel, would the government have? >> reporter: well, they would appeal that ruling, no doubt, because according to some of the exports, it would be rather extraordinary. if she does rule in that fashion in a sort of out of the norm ruling again, it would start to raise questions about her impartiality and it would set the table for the justice department to ask for her to be remove from the case, according to some legal experts i've spoken to. she did draw this case randomly, although there were only four

judges, so the chance was 25% that she would get it. but she has a history of ruling in favor of donald trump in a rather extraordinary way during the whole saga over the search warrant and whether this should be a special master. she was slapped down by the appeals court, not only overruled but really repudiated. it's one of the most important rulings she could make. let's face it, if this trial is delayed until after the election, ask bill barr, donald trump's former attorney general, who said if donald trump is elected president and this case is still pending, he will ask his attorney general to drop the case. >> this is one of the more fascinating moments i think we're going to have in figuring out donald trump's fate as we move forward toward the election. i say that only because the judge, again, as you said, was

just completely humiliated by the 11th circuit in the past with the special master rulings. she put it on that south florida rocket docket that the south florida district is known for. it is fascinating she's putting it at august 14th. even jack smith is like, no, listen, we can't even do that. now she has a choice between december 11th or after the election or somewhere in between. i find this to be an absolutely fascinating time. maybe you know people that have insight into what she's going to do, but it's just anybody's guess, right? >> reporter: i think you're right, joe. when you talk to lawyers who practice in florida who know her, they say they've seen her do very reasonable things in her courtroom, handle complex trials very well. i've talked to several people who believe that in the end that she's going to sort of course correct and you'll see a

different aileen cannon, not the one you saw during that special master hearing. she's 42 years old. this is a lifetime appointment. she can do whatever she wants. people say she should be concerned about her reputation, but she has absolute power in this courtroom. i think we may learn a lot today about how this is all going to go. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much for that report. we are following breaking news out of north korea this morning. the country has a u.s. national in custody after he crossed the border from south korea without authorization, according to the united nations command. the agency says the person was on a tour of the joint security area, which is part of the demilitarized zone between the two countries. the official tells nbc news the american is believed to be a u.s. soldier. the u.n. command tweeted they are working with north korean

counterparts to resolve the conflict. jonathan lemire, what are you hearing? >> the white house has been briefed as to what's happening here. no official comment yet. the u.n. command has taken the first public statement there. obviously a concern whoever this individual might be, particularly if it is perhaps a soldier and a moment of real tension with north korea where they have in recent months really stepped up their missile tests, the rocket launches. the u.s. just a few days ago while the president was in europe strongly condemned the latest missile test from pyongyang. certainly there is great fear here that this person could be held against that will and could be used as some sort of bargaining chip. we're unclear where this will go, but any time a foreign national ends up in north korea, that's a matter of real, real

concern. >> we'll be obviously following this as it develops. the president of israel will deliver a speech to congress this morning in washington at 11:00 a.m. eastern. hert zog has served as the president of israel since 2019 in what is considered largely a ceremonial role. he'll also visit the white house and speak with president biden. meanwhile, israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu spoke on the phone with president biden yesterday and was invited to visit the u.s. in the coming months. the new iowa abortion law has been blocked by a district judge. that means abortions are still legal there up to 20 weeks of pregnancy. on monday a polk county district judge issued a temporary

injunction on the six-week abortion ban that iowa governor kim reynolds signed on friday. a nearly identical measure was blocked by the iowa supreme court in 2018 before the dobbs decision overturned roe v wade. the new six-week abortion ban will remain on hold until the matter is decided in the courts. and millions of people across the south continue to bake under a relentless heat wave with more records expected to be broken this week. nbc news correspondent blayne alexander has the latest. >> reporter: even by typical summer standards across much of the country, the heat is unprecedented and increasingly unbearable. from california to florida, more than 60 million americans are under heat alerts facing potentially dangerous temperatures. record highs are falling by the day and more on the way. >> we topped out at 116, tying a

record high today. >> reporter: in phoenix, temperatures today are expected to top 110 degrees for the 19th straight day. in death valley, the aptly named furnace creek reached a sweltering 128 degrees, making it the hottest july 16th ever recorded anywhere. weather this hot is not just uncomfortable, it's unsafe. in utah a hiker collapsed under the blazing sun, prompting this search and rescue. and a man died while on a bike ride. it's a one-two punch of heat and unhealthy air quality. >> once again, can't see the trees, the mountains. >> reporter: 66 million americans still feeling the effects of canadian wildfires that last month painted the new york sky an ominous orange. >> you should not be outside if

you have health conditions already. >> reporter: all of it following a week of devastating flooding across the northeast incluing bucks county, pennsylvania, where officials are still searching for two children swept away by flash flood waters after their family car was swept away. their father and older brother managed to survive. >> we ask that you continue to pray for the return of conrad and maddie. >> nbc's blayne alexander with that report. coming up on "morning joe," we'll take you behind the scenes of christopher nolan's "oppenheimer," a film that is sure to be the summer's biggest blockbuster. it has the most incredible all star cast, cillian murphy, emily blunt and robert downey jr.

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. in three days, the new film "oppenheimer" opens in theaters. that's exactly where director christopher nolan intends for people to watch it, in the theater. nolan, one of hollywood's most gifted directors, crafted the movie as a cinematic experience to be seen on the grandest screen possible. it is packed with an intense drama and an exceptional ensemble of actors. cillian murphy as j. robert oppenheimer, the renowned father

of the atomic bomb. matt damon. emily blunt portrays oppenheimer's wife kitty. the film is produced by universal pictures, a sister company to msnbc and before the actors' strike started, we sat down with the remarkable cast. >> it's a national emergency in the race against nazis. >> the german army look invincible. >> build it fast. >> our work here will ensure peace. >> you are the man who gave them the power to destroy themselves. >> it's always a thrill when i

see one of christopher's movies. you've taken the lead. >> yeah. >> not just the lead role, but the lead role in one of the most defining figures really of our time. >> yeah. it was an absolute gift. i didn't expect it. i know the way chris works, i know the level of excellence he expects and the rigor and prep that he demands. there were so many elements to it, the physicality, the voice, the icon nothing fee of the pipe and the way he walked. >> can you talk about the timeline of this movie, how accelerated? >> we had to shoot relatively quickly. but what myself and my director of photographer figured out early on is the energy of this story all comes from the performances. so we sort of went back to an

earlier period in our careers where there's no playback, no fussing around. we're really just putting actors into the scene, experimenting with it for a couple of hours, throwing a camera on it and moving onto the next scene. >> we were all in the new mexico desert in this one hotel. it was awesome. it was like summer camp. we could all have dinner together. except for cillian, who went home and, like, ate an almond and had a bath. he was gaunt. >> incredibly disciplined. we invited him to dinner every night. the whole cast would go, but he wouldn't be there. >> emily said it was like summer camp. >> maybe for her. >> here we have this guy who's

brilliant, and yet he needs his wife to tell him keep fighting. it seems at times as if his head was in the clouds. >> in terms of oppenheimer leading the manhattan project, he wasn't the obvious choice. they called him the great synthesizer because there was many things he could do and he could put a lot of things together. he wasn't the natural first choice, but when they gave him the role he was extraordinary. kitty saw that in him as well. >> there's a really morally complex film. you get closer, you sort of have this sick feeling in your stomach because you know what's about to happen. >> the key thing when you study the history of the manhattan project, there are a few surprising things that become apparent. the first is that they split the atom prior to world war ii. so a race starts when it becomes

apparent that the nazis are on a quest for world domination. they had to do it before the nazis did it. >> general groves was the man appointed to head the manhattan project. the relationship between oppenheimer and general groves was fascinating. they were opposites, and yet they acquired a mutual trust. >> the general had a really complex relationship with oppenheimer, where oppenheimer obviously loved the community of scientists. the general obviously needed to be all about compartmentalization. >> obviously we're worried about spies, we're worried about russia. the scientist taking the absolute opposite approach, so there's natural tension between the military and the scientists.

groves felt like he was herding cats half the time trying to keep everything where it needed to be and just the logistical undertaking of making this happen was amazing. >> it's a buddy movie if the buddy movie was moving towards an atomic bomb. >> the chances are near zero. >> they figured out how to respect each other, how to appreciate each other and like each other. >> yeah. >> they did. i think groves was a really sharp guy also. he went to m.i.t. he wouldn't mind playing the dolt in front of the scientists, but he understood what was going on and he knew the science. it was really a masterful call putting him on the project. >> the story rares -- requires

all of these characters, some of which are household names like cillian playing oppenheimer. then there are the less known folks like louis strauss, who was a fascinating character. >> louis strauss was oppenheimer's nemesis. he was the chairman of the atomic energy commission. he orchestrated oppenheimer's downfall because of his opposition to the building of the hydrogen bomb. >> so much of strauss's actions in that movie was driven by resentment, wasn't it? >> i think resentment underneath it. i just love the idea that a rivalry or feeling blown off by someone that you admire can lead to the kinds of actions that

occur. >> you are a biologist. >> in the summer of 1940, kitty met robert oppenheimer. they had an intense partnership. >> kitty in the movie, like the first half of the movie, they're holding martinis or a screaming baby. but something remarkable happens the second half. this betrayed wife becomes his fiercest defender. what a force of nature she was considering the time that she lived. >> she was a monumental presence in his life and his intellectual confidante in huge ways. not a natural mother. >> take my baby, please. >> take this child. i'm not good at this. and yet i had a lot of empathy for that. there are many women who sort of

went to the ironing board. i think she was meant for greater things and sort of drove herself insane living in los alamos with nothing else to do but drink. a screaming child and a martini, yeah. >> three, two, one. >> for years they were working on it and all of a sudden it became a weapon. there was a point where it went from theoretical to this extraordinary weapon of mass destruction. >> all of america's industrial might and scientific innovation

connected here in a secret laboratory. >> i think it's cillian's ability to play the duality of the character and the fact that his intention was like dancing between rain drops at the end as this thing became bigger than him and he lost control over what happens to it, what happens to this creation now. he loses power over that. you feel for him because you see the trauma of living with a brain like that. you've watched it. >> build it fast. >> his ambition in life was to somehow combine his passion for quantum physics with his passion for new mexico. of course, this is how he did it, by suggesting to general groves that they should build a secret city in los alamos. >> it's just a 360 success. when you walk down it, it just hits you, the reality of it.

they threw this town up in the middle of the desert. that's where he felt romantically attached to this place. >> christopher nolan, talk about how meticulous he was on details down to the coat and tie you were wearing, everything. is he like that as a director as far as your movements and what you do? >> even though he was sure i should be wearing this yellow tie, he was also incredibly free in his lack of judgment about many of the other details. he said, just trust that all the details are going to be accurate and then we're going to go for something truthful. >> you're holding a martini and a baby for half the movie. rami malek, he won an academy award. he held a clipboard for like two hours.

>> just the willingness for everybody to show up and be a part of this type of excellence, it's what chris invites, it's what he's known for. i think all of us would have shown up to do a scene. >> his level of attention to detail is fun to be around. he's just so particular about everything. the research, the amount of work that has gone into the script itself, i was like this is one of the best things i've ever read in my life. >> is this movie more timely now probably than any time since the cold war with current events? >> obviously it's entertainment. it's a big summer film, but it's a little different from the norm in that i think it activates these constellations of existential dialogue. i mean we're still living in the atomic age, for better or worse. >> it's quite a coincidence,

this biography was written in 2006. walter isaacson wrote einstein's biography in 2007. he said he wasn't the greatest guy in the lab, but he visualized things. like the theory of relatively. he visualized lightning striking the train at the same time. >> physics is not only about math. it's also about intuition. the intuition of a physicist is key to oppenheimer because it's about relatability. >> oppenheimer was a highly

intelligent, extremely empathetic human being. he said, well, the trinity test was successful. this weapon is now going to be used on a japanese city. these poor little people are going to be the victims. >> 1945, a plane carrying a single bomb. >> after trinity and what happened in japan, he had to reposition himself afterwards and try and figure out where he stood about it all. it's a very unusual journey to take sort of morally. it was really interesting to play that. probably it's much more human. >> let me ask you, christopher, about sort of the return of the summer blockbuster. we grew up with "raiders of the

lost ark," "back to the future," the empire strikes back. i think this is going to be a movie that is going to draw people back. >> there's a wonderful place in the culture for the big screen. for oppenheimer, i chose to shoot imax film. we want to put that story on the biggest screen possible and bring people together and have them go through this man's extraordinary experiences. >> we'll be showing you more of joe's conversations with christopher nolan, cillian murphy, emily blunt and robert downey jr. throughout the week here. the interviews are just terrific. >> it's remarkable going inside the creative process.

christopher nolan and emma thompson are extraordinary producers. also the two happen to be married. we have significant breaking news. jonathan lemire, it looks like another indictment, perhaps the most significant indictment may be coming donald trump's way. >> yeah. we may be on the verge of that in just a couple of days. in just the last few minutes, donald trump posted on truth social to reveal this. he says he received a target letter from the department of justice from jack smith's office sunday night, saying that he is indeed a target of the january 6th grand jury investigation. so a target letter, as we know, is usually a signal that indictment is on the horizon. trump goes on to say he's been given just four days to report to court. we haven't confirmed that yet. the department of justice has not weighed in yet.

he goes on for two plus pages on a screed against alleged bias, which we will not repeat. we know he has already been charged for a crime federally for the mishandling of dams. he's been charges for crimes in new york state for business practices. we believe in a matter of weeks a charge could come down in the state of georgia for election interference. now trump himself is confirming he's received a target letter for the january 6th and election interference probe. it's not just about the events at the capitol, but all that led to it. >> right now we're sitting at two indictments. we talked about the possibility of four indictments before. there was always skepticism that these indictments were going to come down. again, you talk about mueller, you talk about impeachment. donald trump was never held accountable for his actions. here you have the new york city

indictment, which some people questioned why it went first. i think those questions are being answered by just how serious these other indictments are. you then have the mar-a-lago documents case that was brought in federal court in south florida. and you have donald trump allegedly stealing nuclear secrets, stealing military secrets, stealing plans to invade iran, refusing to give them back, waving documents around in recordings saying, i have all of these top secret documents that i can't show you, that i can't declassify. so all of that extraordinarily important. but there's always been this feeling, i think, for many americans that, while all that is serious, the case that is most important for donald trump to be brought to justice to is,

in fact, january 6th, especially because you have so many working americans that got involved in riots, brutalized police officers, nearly beat police officers to death, did things that they would never have done but for donald trump. this, according to them and their attorneys in front of federal judges. if you're indicting all of these people and there's so many people that have gone to jail for conspiracy to commit sedition, and you leave out the guy at the top of that chain of events, that's not justice. that's one man getting away with a lot of what working class americans didn't get away with. like you said, the fact that he was contacted, given four days

means he may not be far off in saying that he expects to be arrested very soon. this is, again, from what he's saying. i think most legal experts would agree he should expect to be arrested very soon possibly for conspiracy to commit sedition against the federal government. as you said, other activities around january 6th, go into those. >> it's not just, of course, the events of that day, but his speech at the ellipse, which drove rioters to the capitol. he said he'd march there with him even though he ended up not doing so. we know he returned to his private study off the oval office and watched television and cheered along. he cooked up the scheme with the fake electors and the effort to get mike pence to the capitol on

january 6th to try to throw the election to the house of representatives, meaning he would then win. it's months worth of the big lie is part of this investigation. he has not been charged yet. we do not know what charges would come. but as we say target letters usually lead to charges. according to trump himself, it seems like a pretty accelerated timetable. we know who the investigation has been talking to. they've been slowly working up the chain to his top aides in the white house that day, campaign officials, the vice president himself. they have talked to them, building the case, moving towards trump. experts say this might be the hardest charges to bring, but if they did, they'd be the most serious. >> in trump world, there's got to be at this point chaos. i don't know how you run a

campaign in the middle of all these legal cases and some that are really percolating, the hearing today in the classified documents case and what the timing on that case might be. of course, donald trump wants to move it until after the election. and now this, potentially having to report to court in the next four days on january 6th, which is significant in so many ways to all the points that you mentioned, joe, to the people that showed up that day, to the people who listened to donald trump when he said, go to the capitol, i'll meet you there. and the testimony by people who worked closely with him saying he wanted to go there as well himself. never showed up, but a lot of people did and are serving real time right now in jail because of what donald trump did them to do.

let's keep in mind, we could go farther back. look at the debate when he said stand back and stand by. a lot of people feel what they saw on january 6th was exactly what they were standing back and standing by for, joe. >> it's so fascinating that you said that. i was just thinking a couple of nights ago of all the damning tells that we have before january 6th. going to that last presidential debate where donald trump told the proud boys to stand back and stand by, this is what he was talking about. show the clips. this is exactly what he was envisioning when he said stand back and stand by. >> and they showed up. >> jonathan lemire can talk to this because he wrote the book on january 6th and the big lie. there's him having a furious meeting with his attorneys who said, mr. president, there's nothing there, donald trump

sulking off and angrily tweeting in the middle of the night to come to washington on january 6th, that it will be crazy. this guy, again, he's telling the proud boys in a presidential debate stand back and stand by, i may need you. if i don't win this election, i may need you to have a violent overthrow of the federal government and to stop the counting. that's exactly what's going on here. again, the intent was always, if i can't do this legally, i'll do this violently. if you look at his own tweets, you law this out so specifically. we were saying in 2019 that if he lost in 2020, he would run for president again, because he understood that was his only way to escape prison, and here we are. >> it will be wild, those were his words where he summoned people to january 6th to commit

violence in his name. we have laid out chapter and verse about how he was going to run for office again to avoid these charges. their hail mary shot was if trump wins again, he can make the federal charges go away. >> anybody associated with donald trump says, oh, the only reason he's being charged is because he's running for office. that's actually the complete opposite. >> it's the inverse. >> the only reason he's running for office is because his biggest apologist said after the documents case he was charged, he said, first of all, very serious just like barr, he's in big trouble, just like barr saying he's in big trouble, and

just one of those 37 indictments, if he loses only one of the 37, he's going to jail for life. turley said it's a life sentence. here we are. of course he's still running, because if he stops running, all he has to look forward to is spending the rest of his life in jail. >> that's the other take-away from this lengthy post on truth social, most of which is conspiracy theories and the attack on the so-called deep state. he is indeed giving no indication he would abandon his hopes for the presidency, which might be his last shot to stay out of jail. he's in his mid 70s, donald trump. this is a case that we've been watching from the beginning. it is the most serious. it's an attack on our very democracy. >> again, he brought up a really important point, jonathan,

before you continue. the hardest case to prove and at the same time the most important case, many believe, to bring. >> and one that the federal government was a little slow to pursue until the work of the january 6th house committee which revived the national conversation about it and really trigged the doj to step into overdrive on that case. certainly the classified documents, we shouldn't downplay how serious that is, top secret information at his unguarded location at his beach club. we've never seen a president try to maintain power and inspire violence to keep this grip on the office. here it seems like he is potentially just days away from being charged for it. >> days away, mika, from possibly being the first president ever -- we've already

broken so many firsts, but the first president to ever be indicted for sedition against the united states government, the very government that he swore an oath to protect and defend. >> let me tell you something. first of all, it's chilling to even think about, and also many who witnessed january 6th, i definitely think some of the capitol cops who were brutalized that day, some of them permanently, are still waiting for some sort of justice, having been invalidated every step of the way by republicans protecting donald trump on this, protecting donald trump on what you're looking at right now, on this violent attack on our democracy that included attacks on our cops and our members of congress. you had capitol cops that stood in between our democracy and

this riot and who literally held these people back and tried to trick them to go into different directions to protect members of congress and members of the senate. all of these people inspired, wearing trump hats, holding trump flags, inspired by donald trump even though republicans to this day will say, oh no, it's just another day. impossible. it will be up to the courts to decide what really happened here and who really inspired this. right now it looks like the wheels of justice are turning against donald trump, receiving this letter. i guess we should point out at this point that it is only trump right now who is claiming he got a target letter. we still are waiting for confirmation on a number of levels here, but he has done this before. he has jumped the gun on past indictments, trying to own the narrative. i would suggest, joe, that in

the days ahead trump's tone is going to change. i think the rhetoric, if it's possible, is going to ramp up, and i think this is going to become a very tense time for our country as we follow this story. >> i think it will be a very tense time for the country. anybody that's known donald trump for a very long time says what i sense. that is, this is a guy who understands, let me say the word because it triggers trumpers. he understands that the legal walls are closing in. he understands that the legal walls are closing in. there was such arrogance from trumpers, such arrogance from donald trump that that would never happen, he would never be held accountable, justice would never find its way to him. perhaps, perhaps, who knows, maybe a judge will decide she's going to help him anyway she

can. who knows? but at the very least, he's actually going to be held to account to speak for his actions. so many people who followed him, so many people who gave so much money to him, so many people who gave so much of their lives to him now rotting in jail, because as they said, they followed his lead. let's bring the acting state attorney where donald trump lives, palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. dave, donald trump suspects and so do we that an indictment is coming very soon. what are you thoughts about this pretty jolting breaking news? >> yeah, joe. i don't think it's too surprising because you could tell, as you said, the walls have been closing in. the special prosecutor has been subpoenaing members of trump's

inner circle for a while. for me, the big deal here is that these charges are going to come in washington, d.c. they're at the courthouse there. that's got to scare trump, because trump and republicans think that the d.c. jury pool are a bunch of godless communist antifa members. after all, trump only got 5% of the vote in washington, d.c. yeah, you could lose a case in red counties in south florida. you could lose a case in the state cases, but man, there's a really strong track record of charging and convicting maga folks in washington, d.c. >> all right. i want to go back live to fort pierce, florida, and nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian and bring you into this conversation with dave aronberg, joe, jonathan and me. what's your reaction to what we know so far? >> reporter: i have to say, mika, it tracks with the rumblings and the reporting

we've been doing here at nbc news. it's been pretty clear for the last couple of weeks that this case, this election-related case -- i don't want to call it the january 6th case anymore -- was motoring towards a conclusion and special counsel jack smith was preparing to bring a big conspiracy conspiracy indictment. it was not exactly clear that it would definitely include donald trump, but that's obviously what trump is saying. now, a lot of the folks at the special counsel's office are going to be in that courthouse behind me fairly soon, so they're busy with this case right now. it's not clear to me how quickly we'll see an actual indictment in the other case. but in terms of its moment and consequence for american democracy, you know, it's arguably a lot more significant because it's about actions that were taken, alleged, illegal actions to impede the lawful transfer of power, and it certainly ropes in a whole, big,

larger group of people than just the classified documents case. that's the other drama here, is that if donald trump is going to be indicted, who else, if anyone, will be indicted along with him, if there is, in fact, a conspiracy? there is a draft prosecution memo that some experts have written, that anyone can read on the justice security website, that lays out likely, potential charges, including conspiracy to defraud the united states and conspiracy to on instruct an official proceeding. we don't know if that's the direction jack smith is going, but based on everything we've seen, the witnesses called before the grand jury, the defense council we talked to over the weeks, it sure seems likely. wow, this case in fort pierce suddenly seems somewhat less significant, though in reality, they're both hugely significant, mika. >> no doubt about it, ken. i thought, listening to ken there, jonathan, was fascinating. let's move beyond calling this a

january 6th case, because as you suggested, the aperture has been widened a great deal. it is going to go well beyond just what happened on january 6th. there are going to be a lot of characters possibly brought in. on all of their efforts, you know, to be part of the conspiracy to overturn a presidential election. now, i know you have a question for dave aronberg. i want to ask you first, though, politically, what are republicans thinking, insiders thinking, about how yet another indictment, the third now, and the most significant, what impact, if any, is that going to have on the race? >> this is what a lot of the candidates have been waiting for. ron desantis for one, his entire campaign strategy was being the guy left standing were trump to implode, were trump to be taken down by potential indictments. this seems to be on the horizon. there have already been two. you know, this is certainly a serious matter. to this point, we should clear, every time trump has been indicted, poll numbers have gone up. >> in the republican party. >> that's a 2023 question.

2024 is different. it's hard to imagine any scenario where this, particularly the sanctity of elections, would help him in a general election. >> that's the thing. i think pundits get it wrong, oh, it's every -- no, they're not looking past them. how do these images being shown in the possible conviction of a former president to commit sedition against the united states of america. i'm not asking how that's going to impact a vote for people who will always vote for donald trump no matter what, even if he shoots somebody on fifthavenue, as he said. the voters, as we say, in the suburbs of atlanta, the suburb of philadelphia, suburbs of detroit, wisconsin, maricopa county. anybody that says the indictments are pluses for donald trump, they're just whistling past the graveyard. they're not. this is bad political news in the long run.

>> no question. this hurts his chances of winning the white house even if it perhaps doesn't dent his chances of winning the republican nomination. we shall see. some of his opponents hoping it does. i'll read this line in what trump posted, dave. he was given, quote, very short four days to report to the grand jury, which almost always means an arrest or indictment. is that normal procedure? you receive a target letter, and within weeks time, you show up in case? what would happen there? >> prosecutors are giving trump one last chance to talk to the grand jury, but they want him to know he is a target. so they're not going to give him immunity for his testimony. anything he says can be used against him in a future trial. they're giving him warning to play fair. there are no surprises here. yes, trump is right about one thing, it generally means an indictment is coming. he should be very worried right now. to what ken said, i do think if charges are coming, it'll be for

obstruction of an official proceeding and defrauding of the united states. judge carter said it is more likely than not that trump violated the statutes, and there have been hundreds of the writers who have been charged with these federal crimes. you don't have to be at the capitol for conspiracy. it can take place outside of washington, d.c. >> all right. breaking news this hour, of course, donald trump claiming that he's received a target letter by the feds in the january 6th probe. joining us now by phone, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. chuck, can you talk about the gravity of being a target in this specific probe? >> well, i'll tell ya, mika, being a target in any probe is a bad day, but in this specific probe, i always thought that efforts to undermine a free and fair election were among the most serious charges conceivable in this case.

and so extraordinarily grave and extraordinary occurrence. ironically, not completely unexpected. we've seen signals that this was coming. it makes sense that jack smith and his team would be looking specifically at this. this, i think, in many ways, if brought, would be the most compelling case. >> so, chuck, it's jonathan. i mean, i think i agree with that assessment. so walk us through what happens next. what sort of timeline would we be looking at? we just heard from dave that, okay, trump gets one last chance to appear before a grand jury. sounds like it'd be this week. a, does he have to do that, and, b, whether he does it or not, your best guess as to a timeline moving forward. >> yeah, jonathan, it is an invitation but not an invitation that anybody would ordinarily want. he is not required to testify before the grand jury. it's not mandated.

i would be shocked if he did testify before the grand jury. really what it is, quote, unquote, invitation from the united states department of justice for him to present his side of the story to grand jury. if he so chooses. there is nothing in it for him. there is absolutely no way this man could tell the truth. lying to a federal grand jury brings additional charges, including perhaps perjury and obstruction of justice. he's very, very unlikely to talk the grand jury out of indicting him, so he respectfully declines. what happens after that? i imagine at some point, the smith team presents its proposed grand jury -- sorry -- proposed indictment to the grand jury, and it votes a true bill, charging him with additional federal crimes. >> yeah. dave aronberg, donald trump had to know this was coming. he had to know that all of these indictments were likely coming. it's why, of course, as we said

before, even said going back to 2019, that he'd run for president again if he lost in 2020, because he wouldn't want to be sent to jail. i mean, i've got to ask you, as a criminal defendant now, donald trump is charged in new york state. he's charged in miami federal court for stealing nuclear secrets, for stealing other military secrets from the united states government. any one of those charges can send him to jail for the rest of his life. looks like january 6th is coming. if you read "the wall street journal," it looks like fani willis is coming with everything that she has, coming after him. we can expect that most likely in early august. another week or two. i mean, can -- talk about the scale of legal peril donald trump finds himself in. >> it's massive. and it is getting into his psyche. you can see him melting down on

truth social, his social media site. ironically, joe, it looks like the case that probably goes first is the least of the cases, the state case in new york. the most serious case against him, in my mind, is the documents because there's a direct tie between trump and alleged criminality there. i would put fani willis' case second because he is on tape, "find me 11,780 votes." i would put this case third as far as the strength of the case, but the most important case, because it involves our democracy. this is a case that everyone can understand. not everyone understands what's going on in new york. people are still confused why documents matter. but everyone knows what happened on january 6th. that's why this case is perhaps the most important of all, even if it is not the strongest case against trump. >> you know, jonathan, many people have been saying for some time that in america, donald trump disproves the statement that no man is above the law. that's changing, and it is changing quickly, isn't it?

>> it is changing by the day. we appear on the verge of his third indictment, a fourth may be a few weeks away in georgia, and this one, to what dave said, this is the weightiest. this is about our very democracy and about the peaceful transition of power. it seems he is on the verge of being criminally charged there. >> mika? all right. that does it for us here on "morning joe." of course, we'll have a full report tomorrow morning. but the breaking news continues right now with ana cabrera. ♪♪ it's 10:00 eastern. thank you for being with us. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. we begin with this breaking news. former president donald trump has just posted on his truth social account, claiming he has received a target letter in the january 6th grand jury investigation being led by special counsel jack smith. now, trump also claims that the department of justice gave him four days to report to the grand