what do they have? >> i think she is in my soul. even though she isn't here, physically, she is with us. >> finally, one determined detective, officially retired, again. this case, for him, was, well -- >> emotional. >> was it worth the time you put on this? >> oh yes. . sure. >> the case that he came back for. the case of his life. closed. >> that is all for this edition of dateline. i am andrea cannon thank you for watching. for watching >> good evening, i'm ali velshi. welcome to msnbc special coverage of the indictment of donald trump. i am joined tonight by my

colleagues alicica menendez, jonathan capehart, ayman mohyeldin, symone sanders-townsend, and with us from miami, katie phang. the twice impeached, and now twice indicted donald trump has become the first ex president to face criminal charges from the federal government. over the next two hours, my colleagues and i, along with some special guests, are going to break down the justice department's case against the former commander-in-chief. a case that we saw for the first time just yesterday. when the bombshell, 37 count indictment was unsealed. the indictment, which also names the trump aide and valet, walt nauta, as his coconspirator. outlined criminal charges related to more than 100 classified documents that federal agents recovered from trump's mar-a-lago resort last august. trump faces 31 counts of violating the espionage act, through willful retention of classified records. he faces another six counts stemming from his alleged efforts to impede the investigation. nauta it was also charged with six felonies related to the cover-up. -- in the 44-page indictment. paints a damning picture of the

former president, with a reckless disregard for the nation's most closely held secrets. it cites two examples of trump showing classified, national security information, information he was no longer entitled to possess. let alone to share to visitors to his new jersey golf club. in one instance, trump showed a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff all of whom who had no security clearance, a copy of a plan of attack, that according to a recording, trump himself described as highly confidential. trump can be heard on that recording, referring to the document as, quote, secret. trump's careless treatment of the nation's most sensitive security information is laid out not just in black and white checked. as photographic evidence. take a look here. you can see boxes of documents

that were taken from the white house that were stored at mar-a-lago. stacked up in ballrooms. and later, a bathroom. you can see a toilet there on the left. in courting to the indictment, this is where nauta came into the picture. he helped move boxes throughout the resort. just how sensitive was the material in trump's position? well according to the indictment, the documents trump took, quote, included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries. the united states nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states, and its allies to military attack. and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack, and quote. trump, who is repeatedly denied allegations of mishandling classified documents, is expected to surrender to miami authorities on tuesday. marking his second arraignment in two months. however, his legal troubles do not appear to be slowing down

his campaign. just hours ago, donald trump vowed that he would continue running for president, even if he were to be convicted. in an interview aboard his plane, trump told politico, quote, i'll never leave. let's bring in my msnbc colleagues who are going to be with me for the next two hours. alicica menendez, jonathan capehart, ayman mohyeldin, symone sanders-townsend, and with us from miami, katie phang. let me start with you katie. it because you have the training of a lawyer. while the rest of us have played lawyers for the last 24 hours while we read this indictment. it's actually a pretty good read. there have been recommendations, including from jack smith and from others, to say, read the actual indictment. it tells a story. it's quite a narrative. it tells a story of someone who knew they had documents they were not supposed to have. who is asked to give those documents back. and then four months did things with those documents, and claimed he had given them back. the story, according to some people, it's fairly cut and dry. >> it absolutely is. this is exactly what we were hoping to receive from special counsel, jack smith. what we call a speaking indictment. that phrase has been used a lot over the last couple of days. since this indictment was unsealed. however, it's important to

emphasize the reason why it makes sense to be able to release this type of indictment from special counsel, jack smith. the american public needed to know the extent, and the depth, that the obstruction took place by donald trump. the efforts that were taken by him to ensure that he was going to be able to keep documents and materials, he knew. that's the important factor there. right, ali? he knew he wasn't supposed to keep them. it's in audiotapes. it did messaging. it's in communications with his lawyers. which footnote, is a very big deal. the fact that communications with his own lawyer are actually in there in black and white in that indictment. he knew he wasn't supposed to keep them. he kept them anyway. and he enlisted the help of walt nauta to be able to do it. it's a damning indictment. it is one that is going to be a very tough road for his defense team, and frankly, he now has new lawyers to have to deal with it. it's going to be really hard for his defense team to be able to fight this indictment. >> there's another fight that is going on, symone, right now

donald trump is in north carolina. he's got a rally. it's his first public set of comments, although he posts on that social media thing of his very frequently. they sent us some advanced notes of what he was going to say. it's unhinged, even by donald trump standards, tonight. >> it's unhinged. he was in columbus, georgia, a little bit earlier today. with other republicans. again, who are on the trail, again, very unhinged. which struck me about what the former president is planning to say tonight, and what he said earlier today. not to mention the post on his social media site. there was no strategy. after the indictment came down, it was unsealed. everyone, including donald trump and his lawyers, had an opportunity to see it. to me, as a former strategist, knowing that he has these events coming up this weekend, knowing that folks will be waiting with baited breath to see what exactly donald trump had to say, this was his opportunity to really obviously pre plead his case in the video of public opinion. he did not do that.

it is more of what we usually heard. conspiracy theories. he said this was a weaponization of the department of justice. >> right. >> i think it's important that people at home understand that the only reason donald trump was indicted was because he refused to get the boxes back to the national archives over and over again. >> over, and over again. >> multiple times. >> fbi comes to me one-time to tell me to do something, i'm going to give it all. up one time. >> can i disagree with my friend symone, i think this is his strategy. his strategy is to deny, to deflect, not actually grapple with the substance of this indictment. to make light of it. one of the things that i was struck by, listening to him onstage, was the tang. right? the way in which he wants to act as though this is, quote, just a boxes thing. that is in such stark contrast to what we heard from jack smith. jack smith, laying out what is at stake here. really making it clear that this case is about our national security. and saying that america is supposed to set the standard

for the rule of law. this isn't just about what is happening here in the united states. it's about our global partners watching what we do here. i think you said that because you are good strategist. and you would never do that. >> you would never do something like that. >> you would never do something like this. but i think this is from the trump playbook. which is you just don't engage with it on the merits, because, if we're being honest, how could you? >> i would add more and more detail to that. you say, deny, deflect, and delay. it's all about delaying the, what will be inevitable. the legal calendar and timetable and clock doesn't comport with the way we want things to move. >> right. >> he knows that. he has exploited that, time and time again throughout his entire life. but he really needs the delay tactic. because he faces serious jail time with what we just read in that indictment. >> i think when you're looking at this right now, the thing that strikes me the most to your point is how much the fbi and the doj went out of their way to try and recover these boxes.

and what is the most telling for me in the indictment, is the word retention. it's not necessarily about possession. >> they asked for it back. if they had given them back, there might have been a different outcome. >> exactly. i think you have parallel tracks with what happened with mike pence and what happened with donald trump. not to say that mike pence is any better as a politician, but certainly somebody who was in the possession of classified documents. when they asked him for, he gave it back, he cooperated. he made everything out is disposable available to the doj. they cause the case. moved on. with donald trump, you had a grand jury request these documents.

he, according to the indictment, not only obstructed it, orchestrated the obstruction for his codefendant. by having them conceal the documents. not cooperating, telling his lawyer not to cooperate. in doing so, the process in how he retained these documents is what discharge is about. we should've cited. that people are saying, he had these boxes, he's allowed to have these boxes. it's not about the fact that he got the boxes. it's that he held on to these boxes, even when they told him turn the dam box is over. we know you have them. >> and he lied. >> hey katie, there's been some reporting tonight from charlie savage about something you may have understood to be true. when jonathan talks about delay, the one way, i guess there are a few ways in which a defendant can delay. donald trump has extra ways in which you can delay, because he can say i'm running for president. i've got things i've gotta do. a judge may take that very seriously. the judge in manhattan does take that seriously. but it seems like the judge in miami, some were worried that this might be somebody who was appointed by donald trump, might favor donald trump. that judge looks like she's going to stay on the case. >> well, she's going to stay on the case for now. big question was whether or not this was some preliminary assignment to judge, aileen cannon, as she was randomly assigned to donald trump's case.

we all know her very well. she had a very embarrassing run act appointing a special master, in trying to pretty much run on position on behalf of donald trump, previously. in the 11th circuit court of appeals said you got it wrong. you got it wrong in the facts. you got it wrong in the law. doesn't mean the doj can't move to recuse. but recusal is a high standard. ultimately, she can deny a motion to recuse by the doj. and let's be very honest, let's manage expectations here. just because you are a trump appointed judge doesn't mean end of itself that is grounds for recusal. however, there is some law that is within this 11th circuit. there's a whole bunch of us that have been talking about this amongst ourselves, in terms of the legal analyst for this network. we've been thinking, there's a very good opportunity for the doj at this point in time to move to recuse aileen cannon. but you may want to wait, if you're the doj, to give her the opportunity to step in it.

and to see whether or not, one, she doesn't wrong. and so you have the grounds to do it. or two, maybe she'll just say, you know what, i do not want to have problems on this. case i've already had issues with the chief judge and other members of the 11th circuit. i want to get off this case. >> katie phang it's alicica menendez. -- it takes all the lawyers on this network not to specifically name statutes when there are talking about the law. not that they've been talking to other lawyers. the other thing i heard about the possibility of moving doj, doj moving to recuse cannon, it would just take time. they know that time is of the essence here. i wonder, katie, the extent to which you believe that is playing out in their calculus? >> well, you know, there were a lot of people that were surprised, alicia, when this case was brought here in this particular venue anyway. i have tried multiple cases in

that federal courthouse. the cases move quickly, why? because when you are in state court and circuit court, when you have a stake or felony, we call that circus court. it's circuit court, we call it circus court. when you are in federal court, there are some real rules. real protocols. and real speed at which things get done. federal judges don't play. donald trump may try to delay, as jonathan was talking about. that's definitely a donald trump playbook run. but at the end of the day, the doj could say, i believe in my case. special counsel jack smith has presented an impeccably detailed indictment. we know he probably has more evidence up his sleeve that we haven't even seen yet. so why bother. why not make a run for it? if you look at a national page in the indictment, it says, ali, 21 days is what they say, the doj says it is going to take to try and try this case. that's what? that's more than three or four business weeks, if you think about it. so if you're the doj, you are already bringing in a very trump friendly backyard. you might as well just try it, and get it over with. >> katie, it's jonathan. more on this trump delay.

specifically to judge cannon. talk about the role, and the power she has, in terms of setting the timetables. setting the schedule. could she, just as a judge in this case, delay matters that are favorable for donald trump? >> yes. so jonathan, that's a very good point. scheduling orders are entered in all cases in federal court. civil or criminal. in this instance, she can say i can't try this case until ex-date. but again, i think if you see something like that, that you are going to see her fitting into the narrative that she's actually doing something to put a her thumb on the scales of justice. in favor of donald trump. but there are, let's be frank, you can't have it both ways. if you're going to treat donald trump like every other criminal defendant, because no one else is above the law, including a former president of the united states, then you are going to treat him like any other defend it. there's other cases that she has in her docket, that she has to deal with. so because of that, you may see a trial date that is into 2024, that becomes uncomfortably close to a presidential

election. but at this point, we are just going to have to wait and see wants that scheduling order is entered. and we will see a trial date pretty soon. >> katie, it is symone. good to see you. i have a question about what folks should expect on tuesday. i was told by some former federal prosecutors that will look, we'll be seeing miami, it's going to look very similar to what we saw and heard frankly in the new york case. of manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg. in the arraignment of donald trump, in the alvin -- the manhattan district attorney case, that was where we -- if you read the document, it talks of the transcript. it talks about how there were negotiations happening between the manhattan district attorney 's office and donald trump's seen. they were just waiting to come, they were trying to come to some consensus. they needed the judge to weigh in, they would. can we expect to see that in the miami case as well? or is there anything that the federal government would even

need to negotiate with when it comes to donald trump and his team? >> the arraignment, you're right, the arraignment on tuesday is going to be like the one that we saw in manhattan. however, i think that it's actually going to be going even faster than what we saw happen in manhattan. you will have donald trump arrive. i did have the opportunity to speak off the record with someone from the department of homeland security, in terms of security measures et cetera. he will, donald trump will enter that courthouse. he will enter a plea, presumably of not guilty. that's pretty much going to be the extent of that arraignment. the big difference, guys, that i want to highlight for you at this point in time. is unlike in manhattan where there really wasn't physically the space for donald trump to be able to do a press, or some type of grandstand in front of the courthouse, there is a lot of space in front of this courthouse. physical space. for him to be able to do a presser. there's even an opportunity for him to walk, in a very big way, in and out of that courthouse. a sense of some security members that are gonna be taken by the marshals, by law enforcement. there may be a bigger scene at this courthouse than we saw in manhattan a few months ago. >> we are going to get to watch that all on tuesday. thank you. coming up next, we are going to break down jack smith's case against donald trump. our special coverage continues here on msnbc. ays love their hair.

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♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala. we moved out of the city so our little sophie there's more to your life could appreciate nature.

but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? >> adherence to the rule of law what, we have a ton of mulch.

is a bedrock principle of the department of justice, and our nation's commitment to the rule of law sets an example for the world. we have one set of laws in this country, and they apply to everyone. applying those laws, collecting facts, that is what determines the outcome of an investigation. nothing more, and nothing less. >> now you would be forgiven if you didn't know who that was, that's jack smith. you probably never heard him talk before. there's various pictures of him floating around, some of the beard, some without. he's the special counsel. he spoke a short time after the indictment was unsealed. let's turn to the ins and outs of the case that his team is making against donald trump. i want to start with you, symone. i know that you're not just trained as a lawyer. >> i used to do talking points for the lawyer. give me what you got. >> this document, this indictment, reads like

something you might have been involved in. in other words, it's not legalese. it's not complicated. jack smith says everybody should read it. -- everybody, just read it. it's 45 pages long. 44 pages long. it reads pretty well. it lays out a case about a guy who knew he had stuff, he wasn't supposed to have. who as ayman, pointed out, he was asked repeatedly to give it back. if he had given it back, there may not have been a case here. then the fbi has to literally bust into his place and take the step back. >> what strikes me about this, it's good storytelling. which i think is important. because this is a complicated case, if you will. you want, even -- i want my niece and nephew to be able to understand very

clearly why the drastic step of indicting a former president of the united states of america. the first time it's ever been done in america, it's been done in many other democracies. why it was necessary. this document says that. the timeline here is crazy. but also very important and extremely digestible. it starts jack smith on page two, in this indictment, by saying donald trump -- from the moment -- while he was in office as the president, kept boxes. regularly kept boxes of information. then the narrative goes on to talk about that when he was preparing to leave office, in the end of his term, those boxes, he directed, with knowledge, he directed. he himself, donald trump, directed those boxes to be moved to mar-a-lago. then there's a timeline, a narrative ton line that goes through of how those boxes move to mar-a-lago. it is, it's just a very clear case. which to alicia's point, is probably why there was no strategy on donald trump on that stage, in columbus, georgia, earlier. because, it is extremely clear cut. what you said about the fbi and the search on donald trump's home, in this document, it's

where it was first make clear to me that that search came after. it was august 2022. in july of 2022, the department of justice, the fbi, they get this surveillance footage from donald trump's estate in mar-a-lago. that is where they see, with their own eyes -- >> yeah, yeah. >> donald trump security cameras. his cameras. >> this is watergate -- >> his own cameras, that is where they see the boxes getting taken in and out. it was after that moment that the department of justice, we, know the fbi said we've got to go in here. >> that's where this poor guy walt gets brought into the whole thing. >> is well to poor guy? >> the fbi asked him, it's a voluntary interview. the fbi asked him. did you know where the boxes are? he says he doesn't know anything about. he says literally, i wish i knew about. oh it's a voluntary interview, you can leave anytime you want. but it's actually a crime to lie to the fbi. he sticks with his story. now he's got charges. >> that's why he's being charged with one count of false statements and representation, in among all the other ones

that him and donald trump are being charged with. what is interesting about this, two things, at least for me. all of this information is coming from within mar-a-lago. these are people within the former presidents inner circle. >> yeah. >> we presume to know who the attorney was that was recording this conversation, his name has been mentioned. we know that some of the text messages involved were obtained, or the pictures obtained were from walt nauta's own phone. the surveillance footage from the mar-a-lago's property. at some point, it undercuts the idea that there is a deep state conspiracy that's going after donald trump. when your own people are talking about -- >> he's talking about that today in georgia, he's talking about that in north carolina. he's talking about the deep state. he's talking about the only thing standing between -- these guys were all sending each other pictures. >> recording the conversations with the former president. how do you feel if the people that are always around you in your inner circle, are always taking you to cover their, you know? >> taping you and doing contemporaneous notes and putting them in a file.

two things, one, if the fbi says to you, do you have any information that could help us understand where they were kept? how they were kept? were they secure? where they locked? that's verbatim. that's what they asked. i'm reading it from the thing. nauta, i wish i could tell you. i don't know. >> as symone says, their own video show this guy moving these boxes. >> the point i'm making is this comes on page 43. by the time you get to this and walter nauta's questioning, you already know what he's done. this guy is cooked. he should've known by then. the second thing, the second point i want to make is on the storytelling. as i was reading this indictment, i went back to the january 6th committee hearings, all last summer. the key thing they did that is very important, was tell a story. turning complicated thing into something easy to, digest for the public to understand. that is what this indictment is.

>> so i will say, most of us here just a paper. but a few of you have recording devices on the table. if we go down, it's because of you guys. [laughter] >> maybe 100 people, at least, -- >> it could be all the cameras actually. i guess a better not keep any boxes i'm not supposed. up coming up, the republicans who are still coming to donald trump's defense. it's not to be all that surprising to, but we are going to get into it. getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...! it's easy to get lost in investment research.

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conversation with former illinois republican congressman, joe walsh. who actually ran against donald trump for the nomination of the republican party. let's bring in our first guest tonight, respond yacht is a university history professor. she's the author of a book strongman -- unfortunately, she specializes in an area i would've hoped would never cause us to cross paths. and yet, i think we talk weekly. as a result of this. donald trump's speech today in georgia, this beach is going to deliver in north carolina, are a hit parade of crazy, anti-democratic, deep state conspiracy theory stuff. someone was saying earlier that one would have thought donald trump would have had some strategy in his first outing after the indictment. the strategy seems to be to double down on the people who think that state is coming for you. >> yes, that's consistent, that's all we have. it's worked for him in the past very well for years. so just like -- who was convicted, excuse me, sentenced to jail, after he left office, it was all a witch

hunt. he's a victim. so all trump can do is to become more and more extreme. and to require more and more loyalty from his about turns. from his subordinates at the gop. it's been very interesting to see all the loyalty performances of kevin mccarthy and the others that are commanded by trump, because he needs all of these narratives to keep his popularity in the space. >> talk to me about that, ruth. there is the calculus for kevin mccarthy, who knows that he needs to keep his very slim majority of a caucus together. there's also the different calculus for the republicans who are running against donald trump because they to believe that they can be president. want to be president. there is the danger of donald trump deflecting delaying, acting as though this is all about the deep state. there's also the danger of republicans like ron desantis, and mike pence, acting as his backup singers, rather than as truth tellers. >> in fact, that's what they are doing.

it's very typical, excuse me, it's very typical that instead of standing up for the rule of law, they too are nikki haley, and mike pence, are attacking the doj. and this is consistent with an authoritarian party that is enthralled to a cult later. there is something called and authoritarian bargain. that is when a leader like trump, who demands loyalty and it's highly corrupt, gets political elites to sign on to support him. once they do that they stick with him no matter what happens. i'm telling you, no matter what happens. they are there and they do that because they become more and more complicit with his crimes. and he's always making more and more crimes. up to with trump having a violent coup, and having documents, classified documents unlawfully. so, they are kind of stuck. so they are in panic mode. so i see a lot, i'm watching with this eye. for example, jim jordan's subcommittee on the weaponization of government. which is designed to harass and

neutralize anyone who could come for them, because they are all complicit in his fate. the sad thing is that they think by saving trump, they are going to save themselves. they don't realize that he will throw them under the bus. and they are always the last to know, in authoritarian history. >> ruth, you and i have talked about this when we -- and a lot of people have made comparisons to trump with authoritarian leaders overseas. sometimes i feel that misses the mark. in a lot of these states over the seas, a lot of these authoritarian figures they have the backing of the state apparatus. they have the threat of violence against political opponents. where does trump in this country derived this power that is so, you know, strong, against these politicians that you are talking about. why can't they compete with donald trump for the same electorate, in a way that they are not beholden to him or help hostage by him? >> that's an excellent question. it's absolutely extraordinary that he's been in power for so long, and his cult, and his domination of the party still

has such power. people are throwing out reasons, possible reasons for this all the time. oh, he's blackmailed all of them. that could be true for some of them. against these politicians that you are talking about. why can't they compete with donald trump for the same electorate, in a way that they are not beholden to him or help hostage by him? >> that's an excellent question. it's absolutely extraordinary that he's been in power for so long, and his cult, and his domination of the party still has such power. people are throwing out reasons, possible reasons for this all the time. oh, he's blackmailed all of them. that could be true for some of them. but, this is the authoritarian dynamics. where they have truly passed their lot with him.

the maga extremists see him as the savior. so, they have lied for him. they've gone along with his reality of election denial. which is now there's. one third of the sitting house members are election deniers. it's extraordinary that he's been able to do this in an open society with a pluralistic media environment. that's what's incredible. >> yeah. katie phang, you've got a question? >> gareth, hits katie phang. i must have poked the, i call it the multi shirted bearer of steve bannon. this morning when i had former republican congressman -- on my show, we were talking about the political violence that comes from a trump administration, a trump presidency. and even, now a trump indictment. i said that a gop nomination of donald trump would actually be an endorsement of political violence. we saw what happened on 16, and now we're seeing the reaction from republicans in congress, throwing their support behind someone like donald trump. i don't think it's really hyperbolic. do you, ruth, to say, that if you continue to see this level of support for somebody who has total disregard for the rule of

law, that's exactly what you are gonna end up with, political violence? >> absolutely. it's not hyperbole. and in fact, there was a really good reason that trump kicked off his campaign at waco, texas. a pilgrimage site for extremists. there's a reason that he calls the january six thugs who are in prison, political prisoners. there's a reason that representative higgins was actually sent out this coded tweet. which was easily uncoated. that was calling for extremists to come to miami, and make trouble. and so, this is -- the party became really radicalized by january 6th. many people saw this as the end of any restraint, and the opportunity to continue the insurgency. so this indictment is like a flash point for those who feel that it is like a second wave of the insurgency. or the insurrection, for some of the most extremists, like higgins, and of course bannon.

and all of -- those people. >> ruth, it's jonathan capehart, i would love for you, i'm gonna pick up on something that ayman asked, and katie asked. talk more about the role of the january 6th insurrection. i scribbled down my notes, because ayman was getting to it. about donald trump's hold on the republican party. it made me wonder if the january 6th insurrection was something that sent a message to the entire party, but to the country, or donald trump sending a message to the country. that if you don't stick with me, i've already shown you what i can do on january 6th. i can do it again. >> absolutely. in the study of coups, a third of my book is about coups and who knew it was going to be relevant for america. there are often cases of failed coups that become laboratories for the next coup. but, absolutely. this, his whole discourse, of being the cult leader, being the savior, that is continued. the saddest thing is that an off ramp opened from the highway to hell that trump represents, on january 7th.

some of then went to mitch mcconnell. started to say, well this wasn't right. then they didn't take the off ramp. in my fantasy, mike pence, for example, who trump wanted to harm, he could have led that. they could have turned back against autocracy and further destruction. instead, not only did they double down, in the summer of 22, 2022, the gop actually declared that january 6th was, quote, legitimate political discourse. i read that as them saying that violence is a valid way to do politics. and the coup was something that they approved of, and is now part of their dna. >> ruth, it's symone sanders-townsend. can we talk about the role that everyday citizens play in this? i heard jon meacham say yesterday, and i repeated today on my show, that the question is, what kind of democracy will weigh the? are we amateur democracy that enforces its rules and laws?

are we an immature democracy, that will choose chaos over the constitution? the people here do have the power. it's not a four bound conclusion that donald trump will be -- the republican nominee. let alone, president again. what will be the voters, the people of america, play in this? >> i'm glad you asked me that. because it's easy to be very gloomy, and frightened about what is going on. it is very serious. and distressing. but, authoritarians are always so arrogant. they don't realize that they cause an enormous backlash. we are seeing that backlash in tennessee, in florida, there is a new vitality there. new alliances happening.

in florida and tennessee. i'm just using those examples, between activists and state lawmakers. we are in a moment of a global renaissance of protest. i believe we are going to see much more protest here. so, there is another narrative here. that these brushes with authoritarianism are what some countries, especially our own, where many people took for granted our rights. they thought that can't happen here. if that's what it takes to get them to see that their rights are precious, and their freedoms are precious. >> ruth, thanks as always for joining us for the insight. ruth ben-ghiat, professor at new york university. we've got more coverage of the indictment of donald trump, right after this break.

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a criminal case that made richard nixon look like a choir boy. watergate was the worst thing that happened to the presidency in our history. this is so much worse. he was trying to sell the government out, probably to foreign governments, or at least he's risking our government security and safety by making these records available. >> that is the democratic congressman, steve cohen, on the katie phang show earlier today. let's bring in our next text, the democratic congressman, joaquin castro, of texas. he's a member of the house intelligence committee. also served as one of the house managers in the second impeachment of donald trump. congressman, good to see you, thank you for being with us this evening. >> good to be with. you >> i want to add to over to my colleague jonathan capehart, to continue a bit of conversation we started with ruth ben-ghiat a few minutes ago. jonathan. >> congressman castro, great to see you. i'm highlighting in the indictment on page two, which is probably the most scary thing i've ever seen attached to someone who used to be the president of the united states. it's where they talk about the

classified documents trump stored in his boxes, included information regarding united states nuclear programs. potential vulnerabilities of the united states, and its allies, to military attack and plans for possible retaliation, in response to a foreign attack. this is what the former president of the united states had in his possession. and would not give back. why should every american be concerned about that? on page two, paragraph three. of a 45 or so page indictment. >> yeah, in a sense, jonathan, it is shocking that a former president would be that careless, and that reckless with highly classified material about u.s. nuclear secrets. or war strategy, or how we would respond when attacked. but on the other hand, this is donald trump. his whole, you know, political career, he's been incredibly reckless and lawless. in that sense, it's not a surprise. but it matters for a few very fundamental reasons. first of all, if you think about where he's storing it, at mar-a-lago, you have not only americans who were part of that club. you've got a lot of foreign visitors. including, i believe, some people who have worked for

foreign governments as spies. who have come through there. there are people there who were tracking around, who could very easily, if they got a hold of those documents, turn them over to foreign governments. and make the united states incredibly vulnerable. but also, the other part of it is that it contained information not just about the united states, but also quite possibly about our allies. remember, we have, for example, that the five eyes partnership with five other nations that involves intelligence sharing. it weakens our ability to share information with other countries. because they are going to trust the united states less. they're going to have less confidence, and less faith that the information they pass along to us is safe. and is not vulnerable to being taken or stolen, or somehow shared with the wrong people. >> congressman, it's ali here. the president seems to have a dwindling base of people who are prepared to do anything more than stand outside and wave flags for him. i'm not sure he can do a repeat of january 6th. but boy, he's got two appearances today. when this afternoon in georgia, won tonight in north carolina.

he's got some inflammatory language that he's using. it's like it's his best of. let me of retribution and the only thing standing between them, whomever them as, and, you is may. there's always concern that this president leans on what he knows, and what he knows is how to get a crowd going. >> yeah, that's absolutely right. january 6th, in many ways, was a call from donald trump, asking for americans to support him. to take action into their own hands. including violence. that's what we saw on january 6th of 2021 at the united states capitol. his language since then has gotten even more inflammatory. there was a part in that indictment where he asked the lawyers, or he kind of strongly hints to the lawyers that they ought to throw away, or delay, or somehow remove those highly classified documents, so that the government can't get them. that is his m. o.. he's basically in the same way he was asking those lawyers to do his dirty work, he is signaling through his truth social account, through his rallies, through his interviews. he's trying to signal to the people, who are die hard maga folks, who love him. to again, to take matters into their own hands.

i believe that could include violence. >> congressman, this is symone sanders-townsend. i am wondering about the rhetoric of other individuals. donald trump's rhetoric has always been incendiary. and just astronomical. but there are other individuals, folks like speaker mccarthy. other republicans, specifically within the house of representatives, who are parroting this rhetoric. we know, we can just look at the past year, across our country in america. the rhetoric, oftentimes that these elected officials parrot, they turn to action, at other individuals out there. are you concerned about the rhetoric of other mainstream elected officials, particularly republicans in congress?

>> i am, and i have been for a long time. whether it's speaker mccarthy, who even if you are just being generous to him, he's an enabler of the lawlessness of donald trump. he's an enabler, because he felt like he needed donald trump in order to ascend to the speakership. so he made a deal with the devil, so to speak. after condemning donald trump and laying responsibility for january 6th at his feet, first, he then did a total one 80. because he thought he needed trump to become speaker. so he's become an enabler. then you have folks like representative higgins, who seemed to put out some kind of coated tweet. again, calling mega supporters to perhaps go down to miami. in a show of force, or some other kind of action. there has been, and there continues to be, very disturbing rhetoric. and really symone, let me tell you, beyond the immediate

moment, why it concerns me. donald trump is still the leading republican candidate for president of the united states. and anytime, as you all know, if you become the republican nominee for the president, or the democratic nominee for president, you are winning about seven points or so i've become-ing president. you hardly ever see that presidential race go beyond a seven point spread. if donald trump is somehow able to get past these indictments, or they could get pushed back somehow, beyond the election. something happens where he's

able to get elected again. then, to him, his election will be an affirmation by the american people, in his own mind, that everything he stood for, all the rhetoric that he has used, all the lawbreaking that he is engaged in. is there by affirmed. and that is exactly what americans want. he will serve it right back up to all of us. we will, essentially, be in a fascist state. if donald trump is reelected. >> congressman, thanks for as always for taking time to be with. us congressman, joaquin castro, a texas. stay with us. more coverage of the indictment of donald trump in just a moment. we'll speak with congressman, jamie raskin, and george conway.

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welcome. our special team coverage of the second indictment of donald j trump. i'm joined by my colleagues, alicia menendez, capehart, -- simone sanders, with us from miami, kitty bank. in a bombshell 37 count indictment, until then friday, federal investigators have accused the ex president of lying, scheming, and misleading officials and holding on to sensitive

material join us time in the white house. trump is scheduled to appear in a miami federal court on tuesday, where he's going to face a second arraignment in just two months. you'll remember back in april, he pleaded not guilty to 34 felony counts filed in manhattan over alleged hush money payments that prosecutors say former president paid to adult film star in 2016. trump's legal trouble doesn't stop there. the ex president is still staring down another investigation from the justice department dealing with his alleged plot to hold on to power after the 2020 election. in georgia, the fulton county district attorney has indicated that she would announce a decision on indictments later this summer in her offices of mastication into trump's elections subversion efforts in that state. well this week marks trump second indictment, this may not be his last. as i said, i'm here with alicia, jonathan, ayman, simone, and katie in miami. let's start with katie, it's going to be a big week in miami. on tuesday is -- just like the last time, we heard about this first from donald trump. what are we expecting to happen? what is

the timeline on this case look like? >> the arraignment is going to take place at three pm eastern on tuesday at the federal courthouse in down town miami, at that arraignment, wants donald trump editors a plea of not guilty, we are going to keep our eyes on scheduling, right? we want to know, when is that case going to be separate trial? in a criminal case, even a civil case, excuse me, you are going to work back from that trial gate. it is going to be a trial date set up. all the work has to be done leading up to that particular date. everyone's going to see, is it going to be in 2023? we are still in june. there is still six months left of this year. six months is a long time, even in federal court to be able to try a case. we know that special counsel, jack smith, has made it very clear. he intends on having a, quote, speedy trial. if that ends up happening, the former president of the united states, donald trump, may actually be sitting in a federal criminal trial before the end of 2023. >> i would ask you about that. it's a 44-page, 45-page indictment. at the end of it, there's a questionnaire. i don't know about these things

are. there's a listing of information. it says here that they're expecting the court case to last -- it was a 21 days for the parties to try. that, of course, doesn't take into account when it starts, all of the things that have to happen. all the potential delays. they're basically saying it is three weeks, roughly, three business week's worth of actual trial. that's no indication of when it starts or when it ends. >> yeah. i'm glad that you are managing these expectations, ali. people get excited, right? if they thought this was going to travel in three weeks. now, that is the amount of time that the doj is anticipating that trial will take. there is a lot of machinations that come into play. jonathan kyi part mentioning last hour, delay is always going to be donald trump's friend. in this instance, we already know that there is a brand new lawyer that is being brought on to lead this case. two parlors have now resigned. there has been a shuffling of what i'm calling the chairs on the deck of the titanic, frankly, in my opinion. they are definitely reopening the legal team for donald trump. there are also some ocean practice. motions to dismiss, motions to change, venue motions to --

politicization of the process. there's gonna be a lot going on. we, hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll see some sort of -- prior to the end of 2020 or early through the months of 2024. >> we have this thing for all of trump's legal representation. this dude goes through lawyers faster than i go through shiny, bald head cream. >> that's true. is that merited in a response, ali? -- i'm going to plead the fifth at this point, thank you. >> jonathan, you take it from here. >> really quickly, on another scheduling question, i just wanna make sure i heard you correctly -- on tuesday, when donald trump shows up, will we hear from judge cannon when the date of the trial will be set or can she put that off and make that announcement at another time? >> someone angelica laurie, yes. i'm going to say, yes, on tuesday, you're going to get a trial date, yes, on tuesday, you can get a date for an upcoming hearing where the parties are going to advise the court how much time or when they think this is going to take to be able to get this

case done. it's no rocket science, right? there's no magic to this. judge has an audit of cases. she is a calendar friend of hers. she has a clerk, a judicial system. these people can tell her she can say, this is when i want to go to trial in this case. >> let me ask you really quick about his lawyers that were and suddenly we're not. he added lawyers as of friday morning. i believe they prepared on new shows, saying they were representing him. within two hours, suddenly saying, oops, we realized this was being tried in miami. we will not be able to make it down to miami for this trial. that seemed very bizarre. you, obviously, are in this world. how strange was that? how do you interpret that? what do you make of the fact that they, up until friday morning were on tv saying that they were still representing him and put out the statement within a couple of hours saying, actually, we're not representing him. >> in, it doesn't pass the smell test, does? a new me to tell me this was the first time that they

thought about a case being brought in florida, let alone south florida? please, it's insulting to the intelligence of americans to suggest that. we know that there is always drama in trump's legal. we know it's always sharp elbows, who has the sharpest elbows to be able to get to the front of the line. boris epshteyn is, quote, it has counsel for donald trump. he is the one who is running interference, gatekeeping access. tim parlatore, publicly restarting a few weeks ago. edward cork, recusing himself because he got subpoenaed and testified before the grand jury. now, you have jim trusty and john rallies, saying i'm sorry, i didn't realize this is going to be in miami. the todd blanche was brought in for the manhattan d. a.'s criminal case, he's gonna be up next. look, that chart, you're running out of space to be able to talk about different lawyers that are there. we can do the rachel maddow wall that we had before when we were dealing with all of the stuff that was going on. in this

instance, let me be very clear so that our berries understand, you know, trump could tee up as many lawyers as he wants. he can say this one is next, this one is the one that i'm going to pluck out of obscurity. not all judges, even aileen cannon, will be able to sit there and actually humor him for. that it becomes explicitly clear that is purposes for delight. they're trying to prejudice this case involves prosecution. a judge could say, now i, don't care. you aren't able to do this. or, you're going to do it and we're still going to go to trial. >> let's talk about the first time i get indicted for anything, i'm not expecting you all to throw me under the bus, all right? >> recordings of the. >> clearly. >> you get

indicted, i don't see the back. >> the second time, i would expect -- him talk about republicans, particularly, republicans in congress. i would expect a sophisticated spots. when tunnel trump got indicted in manhattan, they were carrying on about how it was his personal business, whatever the case is. now, response -- it's very orchestrated because everyone has -- suddenly, everyone's using the same, word recognize a solution. weaponization of donald trump, two standards of, whatever for everything else. you're the only one who's been involved in politics. does this work? >> what it must pull well. when is it polls well, think about these polls about the research center, again, they track public trust in institutions. when it comes to congress, when it comes to the white house, when it comes to supreme court, confidence is very low. confidence is low in institutions for people across

the country. the ground is very fertile for people to believe that the government is, in, fat -- there are nefarious is going on as opposed to donald trump. i think that is why it is very important that people sitting at tables such as these, the media apparatus, is very clear telling the truth. i also think that's why it's so concerning that elected officials who know better, like josh hawley, okay, who is the senator from missouri, a hara -- harvard educated, lawyer knows better. but is saying things that he knows is not true. they're playing right into the hands of this narrative. again, all goes back to because donald trump has a hold on the base voters a republican presidential primary. because of that, folks are concerned about alienating those voters because they, in fact, need them. >> what a weird situation where and. that narrow base of people will come out and listen to donald trump, it's getting smaller. it's still the swing base. it's the base without him -- >> swing and a primary. >> primary, correct. ron desantis is not going to win the nomination, no

one else is. their hostage to this little base. >> it seems by every poll, donald trump has 30%, 35% of the republican base firmly within and it's going wherever he goes. if you are rhonda sanchez or mike pence or whoever and you're trying to appeal to some of those away, you have to make this calculated decision. do i run against their leader? do i try to co-opt them? i argue that -- tell me if i'm wrong, there are some republicans who are happy donald trump got a bit died because they want him to be drowned by all of this. >> privately, to be very clear, it's what they all say privately. >> that's going to say. i don't know any of these candidates personally, i suspect that they are watching this and saying, i want donald trump to drown in legal challenges and to be attacked. i'm just going to sit back and say, this shouldn't be happening to him. if he gets convicted and has to go to jail -- >> joe walsh said this morning, he wants him to go to jail. [inaudible] go to jail or something bad happens jen pikas they don't want to come out and say anything. >> right. i keep

thinking for vice president mike pence. you can watch the line. you can walk the line, but why use words like, russia hoax, as he did in his first comments after the indictment? he is the most shameless of all of the people who are running. >> the chance to be the least shameless, january six gave him an opportunity to be the hero. the guy who did the right thing. >> they are trying to kill him, hang mike pence. there he is, still carrying donald trump's water. one of the reasons why the republican party can't quit donald trump -- i hear what you're saying about the republican primary field. a could get away from trump. the problem is, on the other hand pennsylvania avenue, house of representatives, those donald trump voters have members of congress who they

can call a abs kevin mccarthy lives in fear of the donald trump -- >> they are well represented in the house. >> you go into this line of work, you go to running for office. ostensibly because you have a heart of service and you want to be of service or because you are an egomaniac. if you want to be of service, there is no greater service you can currently offer this country than just stand on the side of democracy on the sound of [inaudible] even if you're an egomaniac, i would make the argument that you might not win this election, in my not become the person who wins this elections member of the cabinet. you will go down in history as a person who is remembered for the contributions that you make. that is so much more meaningful than being the seven also read from the left. >> and egomaniac to concede your states to donald trump. if your candidate who is egocentric and you have to play second, third, fourth, fifth little to donald john,

you've shot yourself in the foot because there's no greater ego in america -- than that of donald trump. he sucks it out of the republican field. >> watch mike pence. watch him. [inaudible] what he said about the indictment coming out, i was watching my hotel room, it was struck. mike pence has righteous and get designation he said, american people need to deserve up to this indictment so we know what happened. police indictment, [inaudible] got mealymouthed. i think that this is damning. damning. i don't know. maybe this crosses the rubicon. >> we have 45 minutes left. we can just scrap everything else. it's good reading. it's pretty good rating. >> you have done that. >> you can hear elie bell she read a dramatic reading of the indictment. >> for those of you who don't have made it, you gotta go for runners and i like that, i will have it available as of tomorrow night. coming up next, ranking member of the health jamie raskin joins us right after this.

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that he had -- if you look at the trail -- 18 months it took them to finally get back all of the documents. that looks like the trump presidential library to me. at the end of the day, if you think about it, this is 18 months in order to get back everything, including having lawyers lie in attestations stating that there was nothing like for him. that's why you have the obstruction case from. >> that looks like the trump presidential library to me. you can like michael cohen or not. he has some singers. he comes up with good ones. that was, of course, fixer michael cohen on with kitty bang this morning. katie, is with us from miami. joining his conversation is jamie raskin of maryland. he's the ranking member of the house oversight committee. congressman, thank you for

being with us this evening. >> great to be with you. >> i've been anxious to talk to you to get your take on where we are on this moment. you have been so intimately involved with everything to do with donald trump presidency, in particular the end of it and january six and the justice that he has evaded in that amount of time. this feel serious. this indictment -- you are a lawyer -- this indictment for those of us who are not lawyers raises a serious document in which the prosecutors have done their homework. >> well, it's been astonishing to me from the beginning that after inciting a violent insurrection against the union that donald trump, instead of retiring quickly take a play call that to keep a low profile, decided to kill for hundreds of confidential documents, secret document's, top seaport documents and had

to play a game of cat and mouse with the fbi and the grand jury and engage in very deliberate and aggressive obstruction of justice and the rule of law. i felt for a long time that he is a one-man crime wave, like the mob boss, as he wakes up and figures out as he wakes up and figures out how to get another angle against the government and against the rule of law. he's entitled to due process and the presumption of innocence. this is a painstaking and profuse and detailed indictment here, which lays out really an extraordinary set of allegations rooted in facts about what donald trump did. this is completely separate from all of the crimes that i've been most closely involved in studying and investigating

with respect to january six on the attempt to overthrow the 2020 presidential election and inside and violent insurrection against the union. >> it's jonathan kaye part. to that point, you wrote a whole book about everything you did with the january six investigation, with the second impeachment. i'm just wondering, given all the things you've seen, all of the things you know that you can't tell us that you know, i have a love to get your reaction, not only to what you read in the indictment, but to the pictures. how those documents were stored. where they were stored. what was your reaction? >> well, one of the things that blew my mind, jonathan, was my republican colleagues who immediately pointed themselves, not just defense council, which was

predictable enough, but judge and jury in the case and proclaim donald trump innocent before they had even read the unsealed indictment that came from the grand jury in the department of justice. when you read it, when you see those photos, you understand that they have a very powerful and seemingly overwhelming case against the president on really straightforward set of facts. they lay out the law really clearly. a document is confidential if it is unauthorized disclosure could do damage to the united states. it is secret if it could do serious damage to the united states. as top secret if i can do grave damage the united states. there was dozens of those documents floating around in the ball rooms and the bathrooms and the open areas of mar-a-lago where tens of thousands of guests were traipsing through a different points during that period. where we now it had been perceived as a haven for

foreign nationals and for potential foreign agents to come and look precisely for these kinds of leaks. we are talking about defense secrets, military deployments secrets, nuclear secrets. you name it. all of it was there, floating around because donald trump, for whatever reason, wanted to have that in his possession and to use it in conversation with people. he was so lax in his discussions about it, that there is that one berry gripping a damning conversation where he just said, i'm not supposed to have this. you now, he basically, said i could have declassify this before. i can't do it now. he was cautioning people to be as careful as they could. around the documents. don't get too close. so, the

other thing that was impressive about the indictment was the mobilization of all of the statements that donald trump had been making as far back is 2016 about the fundamental importance of maintaining the security confidentiality of classified documents. even set in some of the statements that no one is above the law. that these documents must be given very high protection. i would say it's an impressive set of pages. certainly, i don't think any colleagues after reading their should be going out and saying this is the greatest witch hunt of all-time when this is based on articulate facts that have been set forth by the grand jury and in the possession of the department of justice and fbi. >> congressman, it's ayman here, can i draw on your expertise as a constitutional or.

i think a lot of people are watching how this unfolds over the next 12 months, maybe in the next 18 months, the concern we find ourselves in a constitutional crisis. it is a unprecedented moment when you have a former president, who's not been and i did. a presidential candidate and possibly a convicted presidential candidates going into or returning to the white house. how concerned are you about our system in being able dancer the fundamental question about what happens if you have a presidential candidate who's convicted of this crime? >> well, let me start by saying that the constitutional crisis would be if presidents or members of congress or government officials were allowed to get away with blatant criminality. that would be a constitutional crisis. as jack smith said we, have one set of laws. they played

everyone here. so, donald trump, as usual, pushes beyond global people's understanding of how ordinary government is supposed to her. we have never had a president who has pilfered hundreds of confidential secrets and top secret documents and then refused to return them in an attempt to obstruct an investigation into them just as we've not had a president who try to incite a violent insurrection against the peaceful transfer of power and incited a crown to come in and the crowd, of course, was challenging, hang mike pence, directed at his own vice president. that is all totally and radically novel cases of first impression. they do test the ability of our rule of law and our system of government to

deal with such an egregious aggressor against the rule of law. i would say that this is the beginning of the solution and not the problem to say that, now, you are not immune to the rule of law because you were a president. even senator mcconnell said that the end of the impeachment trial, there will be opportunities for criminal prosecution and for criminal investigation. that's what needs to happen. you don't give yourself a get out of jail free card just by running for office. we know that from lots of cases of other people who have been prosecuted at different levels of government, who found four officer been in office and have been prosecuted. we've never had a president in this situation before. this is a situation of his own choosing. he created this. he was the one who took the documents. he was the one who try to incite an

insurrection against the government on the way out. i'm waiting to see what happens in that a criminal investigation. >> congressman, this is katie phang. you must have been reading my mind. he just continuously use the phrase that i wanted to ask you about. rule of law. we spent a lot of time the moaning the existence of donald trump in terms of the harm that he has perpetrated on the american public. let's be frank, there are people that have facilitated this and those are lawyers sometimes. you dealt with the 16 issues involving people like sydney powell and john eastman and jeffrey clark. now, we have the unusual situation where we have evan core can, who had the attorney-client privilege -- as you know, as a constitutional law professional as in the lawyer, it's nowhere to happen. we also have a question as to the impartiality of judge aileen cannon and these issues that we have to aim's point. somebody's issues and up for a supreme court of the 90s that has very little faith in the american public for the american public has very little faith in terms of the integrity. give us some help,

congressman. give me, as a former trial lawyer, but an american citizen -- give us some hope that rule of law still applies within the confines or within the parameters of our judicial system. >> well, first of all, i can see the premise of your question which is that all of this is taking place at a moment of plummeting can finance in the u.s. supreme court and the judicial system because justices like clarence thomas, not him exclusively, but there are several others who have been engaged in highly suspect kinds of actions that call their objectivity and neutrality into question. now, we have this aileen cannon, a judge who is appointed by donald trump. that alone doesn't make her suspect, but she was appointed by trump and proceeded to render a whole set

of extreme pro trump rulings of when he tried to attack the fbi search warrant and the legitimacy of the fbi search after his obstruction of earlier efforts to get the documents from him. she was overruled by a three judge panel on the 11th circuit, a very conservative court in the country on the bases that she had no justification for what she was doing. i think that she may end up facing a lot of pressure to recuse herself after that last round of what had happened. all of which is to say that our courts have been under attack by donald trump, by the federalists society, which attempted to pack the courts with federal society bloggers and hacks.

people who would not have been qualified and would not have been put on to the court in prior generations. we are up against some of those people. i know that there's a lot of resilience in the federal judiciary and when you judges, whether they were appointed by democrats or republicans, to act in salas pursuit of the rule of law and to render objective and dispassionate judgments they are and not to think of themselves as part of actors. that's the damage donald trump's done. the whole idea of democrat judges and republican judges and calling judges into question because of their ethnicity or because of the president who first nominated them. >> congressman, it is simone. i wonder if you could put a bow on this for people because i don't think that -- we talk a lot about documents. it's not about

documents. it's about national security of the 37 counts donald trump is charged with. 31 of those federal felony counts, they are under the espionage acts. specifically willful retention of national defense information. talk to us about the fact that the rules that donald trump's violation appear, the result of the second one counts, they exist to keep people alive. oftentimes the information of our national security apparatus that has retained how we got that information is the most sensitive part of the information. the rules here, the violation of these rules, are important because the rules are what keep people alive. >> well, that's right. the indictment focuses on the knowing and deliberate nature of these violations. donald trump is someone who perfectly well understood the rules governing the possession of

confidential and secret in top secret documents. he was someone who campaigned on that basis originally in 2016, that he would be in that ike and categorical in protecting this kind of information. we're talking about someone who bore a consciousness of his own guilt and taking these documents and trying to hide these documents, moving them around, ordering that their existence and his possession of them be clouded in different ways. all of that is laid out in meticulous, painstaking detail in the indictment. all of it is about the protection of national security of the united states. i don't know whether or not at this point donald trump and the gop wants to make a sweeping, broadside attack on the national security

statutes of the country. it may have come to that for some of them. i have colleagues who now talk about the russia hoax being not just donald trump's clear invitation to the russians. russia, if you're listening, find those 30,000 emails or the meeting a trump tower. they use russia hoax to mean russia's -- chip portray or address russia's intervention to destabilize the 2016 and rare presidential election. there is no question about that, even on the bipartisan senate intelligence committee, which issued a report saying that there was no doubt. it was indisputable that russia was involved in trying to undermine our election and more than a dozen different intelligence agencies also were absolutely certain that

vladimir putin had unleashes it shouldn't research agency. maybe they just say at this point, well, they don't think there should be any national security secrets that on. at least that would be a coherent response to the situation. up until now, these are people who have railed about the fundamental importance of the espionage act and other national security statutes. it looks as if donald trump could be facing an extremely serious prosecution on those rounds. and yet, they are defending him without even looking confidence or waiting for the trial to happen. that is a remarkable thing to me. if they think this statute shouldn't exist, it should come out and say that. >> congressman, good to see. thank, you sir, for your dallas is as always. congressman jamie raskin of maryland. more coverage of donald trump's indictment coming up after this. i think for me, as a father...

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new episode of prosecuting donald trump podcast is available now. msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, and mary mccord, dig into what we know about the indictment and what is to come. scan the qr code on your screen to listen now. i bet you wanted more notice before told you to do that, right? after a quick break, we will be back with -- george conway to get his take on the indictment. we'll be right back. scranton, scan the screen. come on, scan it. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. your bug spray should take out bugs, not keep out people. unlike other sprays that stick around, zevo goes from kill to clean in just seconds, plus it's safe for use around people and pets. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. my most important kitchen tool?

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conway, attorney and contributing columnist to the washington post. george, good to see you. people across america were busy scanning you because i told them to scan a screen. then you came up. a lot of people got you on their phone now. george, let's talk about this. one of the things that is interesting about the indictment of donald trump, the document is really interesting. you are a lawyer. you probably read it in great detail. but, the response from republicans has been really unified. there is this whole thing about the weaponization of the department of justice against donald trump. we're oddly about republicans and conservatives. i can't imagine it works. i was chatting with symone about this, it must, because they are all doing in this. >> it's mind-boggling to me. it is another depths to which republicans who defended trump have sunk. it is just absolutely absurd.

if any democrat had done one tenth of what donald trump was alleged to have done here, and i know they cite hillary clinton, but she did one 50, 000th of -- not even that. of what happened here. the republicans would be screaming, screaming for print criminal prosecution. they would be right. i think it's clearly politically motivated. and just shamelessly so. these people, a lot of them, speaker mccarthy, i don't think he even waited to see and to read the indictment. if you open the indictment, to almost any page, any paragraph, there is enough there for an espionage act charge. or an obstruction charge. beyond any reasonable doubt. evidence is actually just laid out in the indictment, in a way that you don't often see. >> george, it's jonathan capehart. so what's it going to take? what do you think it's going to take to break that lockstep that republicans have, when it comes to donald trump defending

him. saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sky is red. and they lock step behind him and agree, that the sky is red. even though they know it isn't. >> i think it's going to take more of the kind of straightforward honest that we are now seeing from chris christie. although he's has disappointed in the past. and from asa hutchinson, and liz cheney. i say, they are just precious a few people willing to do that. you think about it, mike pence, he put out an ad the other day. it was actually pretty good. about the rule of law. and from time to time, you hear him say things that are actually helpful. although, he often backtracks on them. he's also partly responsible for what happened on january 6th, because of his inaction before january 6th. that said, i mean, a guy like him, if i were a semi shameless

republican candidate for president. i did take the fall to try to persuade people to get off the trump train. i'd say, you know, are we -- is there a tape delay later [inaudible] [laughter] i would say, you know, i'm a believer in jesus christ. and i know donald trump is a good man. to the depth of his soul, and he is a good question. but you know, we are all sinners. we are all getting carried away sometimes. sometimes we do things that are wrong. and here, you know, donald trump, they are out to get him. they have been made to him. they have been terrible to him. awful, absolutely awful. and i agree. he has been persecuted by the left wing media, and the woke

mob. but, he's making it easy for them. he just gets carried away. and they need to basically get off that. he did such a great job as president. it's just not going to happen again. so we need to move on. i love donald trump, i know he's going to be mad at me for saying this, i love donald trump. i will love him to death, no matter what he says about me. but, you know, in my christian soul, i believe we just have to move on. that is the kind of thing. you get something, mike pence to do something like this, as sickening as it sounds, and a bunch of people to do that. maybe you move enough people. but the problem is, you know, you've got, how many people do you have running in that primary? it's just not going to, you know, they are all splitting

the anti trump vote. i don't know whether there is going to be enough voters who are going to coalesce behind a single candidate who is going to beat trump. and the fact is, the way the delegate system is set up, you don't need a majority of the primary voters to win. i'm not hopeful. >> i know alicia has a question, george. i just want to note, when you have a future, anyone needs to call george conway, i think he's available to play mike pence in debate. i'm just going to clip that for my show. >> that was a little too southern accent. -- >> i defer to my colleague, alicia menendez. >> thank you for that. i think part of what is interesting to us george, is the fact that this was a party that used to pride themself on national security. this was a party that used to pride itself on the rule of law. david jolly, earlier made the argument to me, this is a post ideology party. there is no core ideology. if there is to be a republican party of the future, and the republican leaders of this

moment to have looked the other way on national security. they've looked the other way on the rule of law. what did then is left for the party to build itself upon? >> i mean, it's a problem. this trumpism has metastasized. it had been cut out earlier, in 2017 or 2018. as i had always hoped, that sooner or later people would say, -- come on, stop it. that would be basically trump's collapse. like a feeling bridge. but that's never happened. we've been, that was over my hope for that was two impeachments, two indictments, an attempted coup, and a clorox shots ago. many clerks shots ago. i just don't see it happening. even with this indictment. i know other people are a little more hopeful. i know that mike murphy tweeted something the other day, saying he thinks that when people get to the voting booths in new

hampshire, and iowa, they are going to say, oh, i can't deal with this anymore. they're gonna vote for someone else. but again, with all of the candidates splitting the vote so many ways, i'm not sure who it is who is going to take the mantle away from trump. it's got to be somebody who is going to be willing to go after him. even in the asinine way, i just pretended to. >> george, thanks as always. we love hearing from you. we appreciate it. george conway. we will see you soon. stick around, our final thoughts on this momentous night. up next. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. everyone: woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals. enter the $10,000 nourishing moments giveaway. the subway series is elevating your favorite subs. why mess with the sweet onion teriyaki, chuck? man, this aint messin', it's perfectin'! with marinated chicken and double cheese. sweet and savory... ...kinda like you and me, chuck. bye, peyton. try the refreshed favorites at subway today.

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>> i'm sad to say, but that does it for all of us tonight. i want to thank all of my colleagues. ayman mohyeldin, symone sanders-townsend, jonathan capehart, alicica menendez, katie phang. a programming the before, that your phone ready. i make a q r code. a new episode of prosecuting donald trump, there you go, there is a q r code, the podcast inevitable, msnbc legal analyst, andrew weizmann, mary mccord, dig into what we know about the indictment of what's to come. tomorrow, another new full episode will drop. a full rating of the indictment. by me. you can catch us all back here, starting tomorrow at 8 am with katie phang, for our continued coverage of the indictment of donald trump. have yourself a great night.

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