sufficient for conviction, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. then, donald trump mites, and i say might very, very strongly, might have learned a lesson and not done the crimes that he did in office, that are now so clear, as we can see in this indictment. it's very clear he's committed crimes. maybe he would have had a warning. maybe he would've ignored them, because he's got in the way with so much for so long, it's time for accountability right now. >> i'm glad we have both of you with your remarkable, not just institutional memory, of actual memory about what happened back then, to inform us about what we're looking at right now. jill wine-banks is a former assistant watergate special prosecutor and an msnbc contributor. and the former democratic congresswoman, elizabeth holtzman of new york. she was part of the panel, the congressional panel that's voted for the impeachment of donald trump. , i'm sorry, of richard nixon.

i'll be back to continue our special coverage of the indictment of donald trump, joining my colleagues -- alicia and then the, simone sanders hand sound, and me, at eight pm eastern for more in-depth reporting. and analysis, but first, there's still two more hours of velshi on this saturday morning. coming up next, the latest on the trump indictment. what we know, what comes next, and what effect it's going to have on the 2024 election. another hour of velshi begins, right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning. saturday, june 10th. i'm ali velshi. for the second time in just a little over two months, the twice impeached ex president, donald trump, has been indicted. this, time by the federal government. yesterday, jack smith made his first official public appearance as special counsel to announce the historic indictment. he also underlined why it's so important that this case moves forward.

>> adherence to the rule of law is a bedrock principle of the department of justice. and our nation's commitment to the rule of law sets an example for the world. we have one set of laws in this country. they apply to everyone. >> that includes someone whom the public elected to the highest office in the lands and interested with the country's most sensitive and closely guarded secrets. but donald trump repeatedly demonstrated both over the course of his turbulent presidency and as he reluctantly left office, to continue to spread lies about the election, that he believed that he was above the law. as the national archives reiterated this week, ever since the disgraceful and of richard nixon's own administration, the presidential records act has required that all records created by presidents and vice presidents be turned over to the national archives at the end of each administration. yet, for more than a year, and despite multiple opportunities to remedy the situation, and returned materials that rightly

belong to both to the federal government and the people of america, donald trump refused to cooperate. as we now know from the indictment unsealed by the department of justice yesterday, the former president and his personal valet had now codefendant walt nada, both have been indicted. trump alone faces 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information, and one counts of false statements. both men are also charged with one count each of conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a documents, corruptly concealing a document, concealing a document in a federal investigation, and a scheme to conceal. what nauta also faces a separate charge for making false statements. now, the government alleges in its indictment that trump was not nearly a passive bystander who got caught up in this ordeal. he was an active participant who was personally involved in the process of packing up documents, as he was set to leave the white house, and quote, cause scores of boxes,

many of which contain classified documents to be transported to the mar-a-lago club in palm beach, florida and quote. and these were no ordinary documents. they included, according to the indictment, quote, information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and a foreign country. united states if your programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states, and its allies to military attack and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack, end quote. and here's what he did with those kinds of documents. for the first few months, some boxes are on the stage of an event space known as the white and gold ballroom, before they were moved to a business center. that, some boxes were stored in and ornate bathroom, stacked high above the marble floor, surrounding the toilet. blocking access to the shower, but notably, not the toilet. more than 80 boxes removed to a storage room by the summer of 2021, piled high along the walls of the room, but

according to the indictment, trump was not just careless with these documents. i want to read to you, from the indictment, to give you a sense of what we're talking about. quote, in august or september, 2020, one when he was no longer, president trump and his office at the bedminster club with the representative of his political action committee, but pac representative. during the meeting, trump commented an ongoing military operation in country be was not going well. trump show the pack representative a classified map of country be, and told the pac representative he should not be showing that map to the pac representative, and to not get too close. the pac representative did not have a security clearance or any need to know classified information about the military operation. on february 16th, 2017 for years before trump's disclosures of classified information at said above, trump said of the rest conference quote, the first

thing i thought of how does the press get this information that's classified? how do they do? what you know why? because it's an illegal process, and the press should be ashamed of themselves. but more importantly, the people that gave out the information to the press should be ashamed of themselves. really a shame! end quote. that's the kind of mishandling we're talking about here. the kind donald trump knew was wrong, the kind he knew was illegal the kind that he knew he shouldn't be doing. the government also alleges the former president attempted to obstruct the investigation for a period of time, trump repeatedly ignored the fbi's order to return all the documents, and part of the indictment, even suggested to one of his lawyers that they like to the fbi, and the grand jury, and tell them that he did not have some of the documents that have been subpoenaed. for more on this, i'm joined by lisa rubin, former litigator and msnbc legal analyst and andrew feinberg, white house correspondent for the

independent, who was one of the first journalists to report out the details of donald trump's indictment earlier this week. thanks to both of you for being here, andrew, let me start with you because i have been following your reporting very closely all week and i thought to myself, wow, this is either going to be who we are making stuff for andrew or he's in a lot of trouble if he got it wrong. you didn't get it wrong. you had a very right about how this was going to unfold, and when this indictment came off, out, this was required reading. this is remarkable detail, not just about the things donald trump did, but the degree to which he understood the allegations of what he did were wrong. >> yeah, one of the things that he noticed first in the indictment prosecutors use donald trump's war warrants against him, going back to his 26 campaign and his presence in? see he made clear he understood that you can't just do whatever you want with classified information. you have to safeguard it. you are interested with it, and

it is a violation of law to mishandle that information. now, the indictment is not specifically charged and home with mask handling classified information. it refers to national defense information. that is important. because it means that donald trump cannot say oh, i declassified this stuff, because national defense information doesn't necessarily need to be classified. it just has to be information related to the national defense. and over and over again, he made clear through his campaign rhetoric and when he was president, he understood the penalty is for mishandling this stuff and yet he did it anyway as soon as he left office. >> lisa, let's talk a little bit about the charges that donald trump and walks nada are facing. nobody knew who it walt nauta was two days ago. one of these charges is a conspiracy to obstruct assess, and the indictment itself makes reference to other conspirators, quote, known and unknown to the

grand jury. don't know what that means. it means there's other people involved in this? >> absolutely that's what it means. it means there's other people involved in this. some of whom may have come before the grand jury as witnesses and the grand jury sought evidence that implicated them in the form of text or emails. you know, one of the things that and how very and effort it was. we have that testimony of the secret service agencies by trump's former attorney, and current attorney, but no longer involved in this matter. evan corcoran. according to the attorney client privilege was pure so prosecutors couldn't get at that. and through that mountain of evidence, prosecutors know that there's a number of other people involved. every alley, i should know that some of the people are described in the indictments although not by name. we've got trump employee one and trump lawyer to and trump's

attorneys. one, two and, three. some of those people are identifiable. there's also trump family members. there's a pack representative. and in some cases, we know for those folks are. for example, most people know who evan corcoran is buy the description in the indictment. but some of those other folks who are described in very vague sentence having to do with where they worked and how, some of those people could be vulnerable to indictment themselves. i'm thinking about the -- case. remember love pardus is one of the two folks who worked with rudy giuliani to unleash information from ukraine that was damaging to joe biden, when he and his coconspirator, fruman, or indicted, there was a mention of a foreign national one, who was involved in a straw donor scheme with them. that person wasn't himself indicted until almost two years later. but indeed, he was indicted, and on the same facts alleged in the original indictment, ali. >> andrew, let's talk about what could happen to donald trump. we just had a conversation about whether he could pardon himself if the were to become

president. there are some people in the audience who might be wondering, can he become president if he is convicted on these charges? the minimum's on a lot of these charges are many years in jail. if he got convicted on a lot of them, it would be several, it could be decades in jail. we are not sure how that would all workout. we're not sure that will get convicted. we're not sure this trial will come to fruition before the election. there's a lot of ifs and what could happens in the meantime, his popularity doesn't tend to take a hit, even when he gets indicted. >> no, and if you remember back to last august, when the fbi searched his property at mar-a-lago, he had a huge fundraising boost, and his support actually went up at that point, and afterwards. donald trump has long had the ability to galvanize his supporters by telling them that any attempt by anyone, congress, justice department, state or local prosecutors, to hold him

accountable for anything, is evidence of persecution and, as he likes to say, they're not coming after you, they're not coming after me, i'm just in the way. , so you can expect that his core support, that 35% give or take of the republican primary voter base, it's not going anywhere. even after what most legal experts would say is a devastating set of facts revealed in this indictment. now, does that support help him in a general election? not so much. it will get him to 35% or 40%, but it's not clear that gets him over the 50% he needs in key states to win the presidency again. and there's been a number of recent polls that have shown that more indictments against him, federal impossibly in georgia, will cause his support in the general election to take a significant hits, but in the primary, i don't think that's this hurts him, in this bizarre

fashion, it's managed to not hurt him thus far. and also, it sucks upon the oxygen from anyone running against him, because whether it's swami, mike fence, chris kristen, tim scott, everyone else on the campaign trail is getting asked to comment on donald trump. and in the primary, at least, whenever somebody is talking about donald trump, that's a good thing for him. probably not so much after the conventions if he is the nominee. >> let me ask you one more question, though. in the hierarchy of the charges and the convictions that donald trump could possibly face, where is this one? because this is a little different than the manhattan d.a. case. one might, like or not like the manhattan d.a. case, but most people say probably didn't have anything to do with three. now, we're looking at classified documents that may have been about war, might have been about iran. that feels a little closer to home in terms of actual national security danger. once you get the january six stuff, with jacks mix it's

still looking at, and the georgia district attorney is still looking at, that's also, this starts to get less abstract and more tangible. starts to get les abstract and more tangible absolutely, and you know -- it will always be in the details here, and there's only so much that the department of justice can say -- a number of the documents here are likely still classified and not ones that can see the public eye -- one of the things that i think though that would be incredibly damaging to donald trump's if the intelligence embedded in these documents is -- as paragraph three of the indictment says, implicates the united states national -- the united states nuclear secrets. that's not something to take lightly. this is a person who consistently put his own interests above the national authority of this country, and we're not talking about it in an abstract way, we're talking about documents that only are

seen by a very few people. the national security apparatus, and for good reason, because their disclosure would compromise the safety and security, not only of folks who work in national intelligence and national defense, but likely the entire country as a whole. obviously, we are all looking to see, as time evolves, and the trial evolves, what it is that we learn about these documents. i agree with you, we're getting closer and closer to the wheelhouse, of things that american people should and you care about, which is, how does this make me safer or how does this make me unsafe and less secure in a democracy a care very much about. >> a simple to you, we appreciate your analysis and your reporting. lisa reuben is a former litigator and msnbc legal analyst, andrew feinberg -- independent whistle marketable reporting this week. joining me now is -- presidential historian and author of the presidents of war, the epic story from 1807 to modern times. michael, it's good to see you

again. in addition to meeting the legal experts on the great reporting from people like andrew, i constantly need to check in with people like you on your first draft of history right now, because this is a momentous occasion. wherever you are in the political spectrum, the indictment of the u.s. president, on federal charges, in many cases here, have to do with the espionage act, is a very, very big deal. how are you processing this over the last couple of days? >> well, not too well. i'm trying to process it but it's pretty shocking, because what i'm worried about is that, especially younger people will see this and will begin to think this happens to every president, every presidents or ex presidents, they all do something like this. they don't. here we have, in that report yesterday, the glory details of donald trump's handling lashell security secrets as if they were parting favors, waving them around, maybe doing things

with them that are not in that report. did he share that with foreign governments, did he sell them for cash? no evidence that he did, but no evidence yet that he did not. that's one thing. the other thing is that one of the sacred compacts that have been in american life is that when someone we becomes president, the most fundamental responsibility is to protect the lives of all of us americans, and our loved ones. millions of americans over history have died on battlefields in order to give us that right. d date 1944, we didn't have to worry about fdr keeping the secret about where the americans would land in france, or president kennedy in 1961, and keeping nuclear secrets. with donald trump, we cannot be that certain. we see what is done as a express it, and we have to extrapolate and soon he wasn't much more careful when he was president, and the other thing on top of all of this is, as

you know, this is not just past history, this is a guy who can beat president again a little over a year. what if, once again, we've got not only the role of mar-a-lago within our own system having american secrets to perhaps foreigners or people who shouldn't have them, but what if we got a whole once again in the oval office? >> let me ask you about the last few days, we've been looking for responses from and republican, members of congress, senators. there are a few people, particularly in the senate, who have been entirely silent lint -- there have been some republican legislators who've been entirely silent. there have been a few have been critical, including some people running against the president, but i want to retire, let's go back in history, a quote from richard nixon's reservation speech, and what she said, quote, it has become evident to me that i no longer have a strong enough political base in the congress to justify continuing the effort to finish

his term. he was right, and that was true fact that. we it's not true anymore, it's not true in this moment. >> no, it isn't, and what we're talking about here is, as you know from history, the nixon had released a tape that showed him committing obstruction of justice and an impeachable offense. as a result of, that member of his own party, the republican party, probably except for maybe ten of them, would have voted for conviction in the senate -- he was out. that's the reason he resigned, impeachment now has shown to be a toothless weapon. how many impeachments how we have over history, how many times has a president been convicted. zero. if you have a member of the presidents own party sitting, you know, our ex president may -- secrets, possibly plans for an american attack on iran, which gets pretty close to being one

of the biggest secrets we've got in the united states governments, and the republicans who have style themselves in the past is the party of national security, saying okay, i'm not going to comment. that shows up so omaha is broken in this country. >> -- when i come back, nbc's presidential history, you're watching velshi, we'll be right back. be righ back hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. (vo) when someone is diagnosed with cancer, they need support. subaru and our retailers are there to help... by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society.

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back with me with some presidential history indeed. michael, i want to talk to you about watergate, something you said to lawrence o'donnell the other night. you said, why was forward in such a hurry, if he had just waited for dixon to be updated, arrested, fingerprinted, maybe even jail for a night or two, maybe someone like donald trump, decades later, could be a little less cavalier of breaking all sorts of rules that might subject him to the

same thing. for those of us who don't remember this, donald trump really like richard nixon. he wasn't alkylate, he was a fan. >> he was. >> he was, and nixon courted him, trump would fly nixon around on his private plane. he tried to get him to buy a condo in trump tower. he wrote him letters saying he was one of the greatest presidents in history, so why was this. one reason was that trump likes to be around famous names. i was with a one celebrity who was invited by trump to a boxing match, and his hotel in atlantic city, and i was like what did he say to you? he said he wasn't interested in talking to me, he just wanted me to be in the picture with him as a side of this boxing ring. part of it was that, but part of it was richard nixon was someone who expanded presidential power and got away with it. well, donald trump is richard nixon on steroids, and he may be president again. they both made these points,

and that is these battle plans, we don't know from the indictment what country a and country be our. there was some bragging about an attack plan on iran, and that makes this thing, as i was discussing in the last block, it makes it a little more tangible to people. the deal that this is not some obscure draft budget from 2016 that he had stored. he's showing people, and somewhat bragging about things that might cause war in another country. things that might cause death to americans or other people in another country. it does seem to be more real, there is no need for him to be storing a battle plan for the invasion of iran or whatever it is they weren't looking at. >> yeah, how dare he do something like that, and as you know, we can't connect it yet, by evidence, but in 2021, it has been reported that the united states had a larger odd

number of them, normally, of agents of ours and foreign countries, and their allies who were getting killed and found out. i really hope they didn't have anything to do with documents that were released by donald trump. no evidence that did, but we have to keep on watch. point is, the other thing is, the founders, i think you have i have talked about this, one of the things that they were most worried about was that some future american president would be in bed with leaders of a foreign country in a secret way. they were thinking about someone who is on the side of the french in 1800 or the british who did not necessarily have the same interest americans did. but, if you got a president with access to everything secret in the united states government, those are secrets that another country would like to have, and if you have a president, and i won't even say donald trump, but president who wants to make money from another country or for an alliance or get another country to help him if you once again

for president for another time, and next year one of the things we'll have to be on watch for is donald trump getting inappropriate help from other governments to become president again because one of the things that they will get is goodies and rewards, is a president who's willing to hand out some of our secrets like party favors. we have to watch out. >> michael, good to see you as always, thank you for your analysis. michael fish lush, nbc news presidential historian, the also the importance of, presidents of war. the epic story from 1807 to modern times. quick programming note -- special coverage of the indictment of donald trump, with my colleague katie phang -- jonathan capehart, at least in this -- and myself, a pm -- reporting and analysis. donald trump is facing charges under the espionage act, which is a law passed by congress in 1917, and cracking down on activities that put america's national security risk. after the break, we'll look at who's been convicted under the espionage act. espionage act.

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states entered world war i in 1917, congress passed a law called the espionage act. it aimed to crack down on wartime activities that were deemed dangerous or disloyal to the united states. it prohibited and criminalize obtaining information, pictures or copying descriptions of anything related to national defense with intent or reason to believe that that information might be used to harm the united states or to aid its adversaries. within just a year, an amendment extends the espionage act to essentially prohibit this set, and many people found themselves prosecuted under the espionage act for somebody speaking out against the war or other actions that could be considered disloyal to the united states. like a socialist named charles schenck, who handed out anti war flyers or daniel goldstein, the producer of a film called

the spirit of 76, who was prosecuted because the government believes that the film undermined the united kingdom. u.s. ally in the war, and was therefore considered seditious. under woodrow was so, the thousand more's were prosecuted under the espionage act for legitimate pulisic low speech, like eugene debs, a socialist leader who gave a riling speech to a crowd about 1200 people. in it, he spoke out against war, saying, quote, if war is right, let it be declared by the people. you, who have lost your lives to lose. that speech landed eugene debs in prison, charged with ten counts of violating the espn adage and sedition acts. the prosecution claimed that his speech was, quote, calculated to support insubordination and propagate obstruction into the draft. dubs was sentenced to ten years in prison, and less than you two years into his sentence, eugene debs when the socialist party's nomination for the presidency, for the presidency, for a federal present tense jury in georgia. steps, as convict number 9653,

one nearly 4% of the vote in 1920. that 1918 amendment was repealed just three years later, and many of those convictions were lifted after congress acknowledged that the first amendment was abusing these things, or that these were abuses to the first amendment. eugene debs sentence was commuted as well, the espionage act has been amended a few more times since then, until its latest revision in 1950. the espionage act, as it stands today, is meant to nab spies and leakers who share u.s. secrets, particularly defense secrets that put america at risk. there is some valid criticism of the espionage act. some constitutional custom -- espionage act doesn't really differentiate between government insiders hoosier sensitive information with foreign powers, and those who may share secret information with the press in order to inform the public of government misconduct. that floss been used council's times to prosecute

whistleblowers who share information with journalists. in 1973, x around -- daniel ellsberg's prosecuted for leaking thousands of documents known as the pentagon papers to the new york times in the washington post. those documents detail the failings of the u.s. army in the vietnam war. ellsberg was charged under the espionage act, but the case against him was ultimately dropped. there was a reality winner, the former air -- linguist and nsa intelligence contractor who leaked a classified report on russia's interference in the 2016 election. under trump in 2018, warner was sent to -- five years in prison, for a single count of transmitting national security information. there are some violations of the espionage act that are considered more serious than a leak or a whistleblower. perhaps the most serious are the most notorious espionage case was that of julian -- julian ethel rosenberg. a couple from new york who were executed in the electric chair under the espionage act for a

conspiracy to share nuclear -- soviet union, back in 1953. notably, the prosecutor who advocated for the execution was roy cohn, who went on to become a mentor to the young donald j trump. which brings us to the latest american to face charges in violation of the espionage act, the former president donald j trump. the charges against trump fall under section 793 of the espionage act, which prohibits the gathering, translating or losing of defense information, and is punishable by up to ten years in prison. according to the indictment, the documents found in donald trump's storage rooms, a ballroom and bathroom included information on american nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. donald trump is not a whistleblower or a journalist, or a foreign agents. he didn't leak a military report to the press for the betterment of the nation, north

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all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. for more on the espionage as it pertains to donald trump's latest indictment, i'm joined by the former cia director john brennan, he's an msnbc senior national security and intelligence analysts, he's the author of -- my fight against americas enemies at home and abroad. director brennan, good to see you, thank you for being with us. i wanted your insight into this, because there are 31 counts as it relates to the espionage act, and i do think that they are serious. there are people who sought the stuff that happened in manhattan, that donald trump is charged with, doesn't really affect them or their lives. there are some people who thing moving boxes around for mar-a-lago -- doesn't really affect their lives, and these are arcane

laws that don't matter, but in fact, showing people battle plans, if that's what happened, or showing people maps they shouldn't see, actual real important classified information that affects war and peoples lives, that doesn't matter. >> it matters a lot to every american, and it should worry them that a former president of the united states left unsecured for so long -- secrets that reveal nuclear capabilities, some of our capabilities around the globe. when i look at those 31 documents that are listed in that indictment, and it's -- the controls on its, they relates to human source networks. they're really to signals intelligence based on our intercepts they released two satellite imagery, and they also relates to -- deployed sensors around the globe, and these are the insights that we have from intelligence, --

or technical sources that allow us to make sure that we take the appropriate steps to protect this country. the fact that donald trump so cavalierly and carelessly and recklessly allowed these documents to be left unsecured for so long in a facility of mar-a-lago, it would be an easy intelligence target for foreign intelligence services. really, i think it just shows how much she disregarded, not only the law, but the safety and security of his u.s. fellow citizens. >> one of the things that gets complicated for those of us who don't have any security clearance is the understanding of what classified documents are. there are arguments out there that america classifies a lot of suffragists declassify things when they should be declassified. there is donald trump saying that he can declassify things with his mind even though as president, he couldn't be classified documents, essentially understood to not be was in his mind. and then there is the understanding from this indictment that donald trump may have been showing people

documents which he understand that he didn't declassify and shouldn't be showing them. there's a whole lot of stuff that the layperson doesn't understand about the class -- classification and declassification that will become relevant here. how would you mess explain all of this? >> well, first of all it's a classification leveled, and their three levels. there's confidential, they're secret and top secret. if confidential information is leaked, it can cause damage to u.s. national security. secret information causes serious damage, and top secret information can cause exceptionally great damage to the united states. then there are the controls on the documents that you see enlisted in the indictment, such as yes i, which is single intelligence -- keyhole, which means that this -- satellites or imagery or reconnaissance capabilities that we have. there are some other types of controls and special handling requirements based on the sensitivity of the source that

is collected from. whether it be human sources or technical collection sources, and so it's a very, very complex u.s. classification process and system that people argue that there's too much less classified, that it might be the case, but when i look at these documents that are reference there, and there are only 31 documents that the indictment references, while it says that there is 120 classified documents that were taken from mar-a-lago after the subpoena, this is just a 25% of the documents, classified documents, that trump continued to withhold, even after the national records agency and others were trying to get these documents back. again, it just shows -- classification levels that he retained, also the sweep of the subjects on the topics that were issued and covered. whether it be domestic issues as far as our security, our capabilities, or as well as the capabilities of foreign

adversaries, and very importantly, our relationship with foreign partners and allies around the world. >> director brennan, good to talk to you as always, thank you for your analysis and your experience. john brennan is a former director of the cia -- senior national security and intelligence analyst. he's also new york times bestselling author of undaunted, my fight against americas enemies at home and abroad. the allegations laid out in the 37 count indictment against donald trump or shocking in their detail and scope, but will they do anything to sway donald trump's base as we approach the 2024 republican primaries? we'll talk about that next on velshi. o velshi trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. - this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular.

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converted to trumpism has proved willing to look the other way when it comes to any number of well-documented moral and legal transgression, up to and including trump being found legally liable for sexual battery and defamation against e. jean carroll. but could this latest indictment, this 37 account of federal indictment, charging the twice impeached ex president, was acting in ways that actually endanger the national security of our country? could this one be different? my next guest, a lawyer, writer and a veteran of the iraq war writes, quote, this level of misconduct to chalk every american conscience. it is simply impossible to conceive any other american engaging in similar misconduct

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indictment against donald trump, i'm joined by david french, the opinion columnist for the new york times. he's a former attorney, and the author of the book, divided we fail, america's succession threat and how to restore our nation. david, good to see you, thank you for being with us.

the reason i wanted to talk to you about this is because we go into our political corners pretty quickly, and there are some people whose things are just like donald trump to go to jail for something and to face justice for something, and there are others who think it's all politicized and weaponized. the reality here is the allegations, which will be tried in a court of law, right? this is not a -- decides to go to court, it has to go to a jury, and someone have to find donald trump guilty for him to be guilty of anything. the allegations are serious and they are of a nature that you can't dismiss as easily as one might have dismissed him and have been the ace stuff by saying, that seems like a technicality. >> right, the manhattan d.a.'s case was a legal reach compared to this. here is the way i would push this indictment. any other american, any other american would be indicted for misconduct without controversy. in fact, the controversy for any other american would be, why would you not be indicted

for this kind of conduct. and so this is the rule and the standards that i applied to donald trump. if i would be indicted for this conduct, a president should be indicted. they are not above the law, and i should say, clearly, former president, which makes him exactly on parallel with somebody like me, an american citizen. he is normal or we -- need to view him like that's. so then the question is, is this the kind of conduct that would get any american indicted, and the answer to that is, yes was a capital y. the evidence of intentionality here is overwhelming. the evidence of obstruction here is overwhelming. again with the caveat that these are claims, they have to be proven at a trial, so the jury satisfaction. the evidence here is articulated's exact kind of evidence that would get anyone else indicted, and i think that's very important for people to understand. >> for those who will stick with donald trump, increasingly,

we're not seeing people who would -- going out to violently support him. i think people are getting less interested in the sort of thing. you made a point in the new york times yesterday in op-ed, and what you said the justice department had little choice but to charge trump. the evidence of intentional misconduct and comprehensive obstruction of justice is just too strong. any other decision would place presidents outside the rule of federal law and declare to the american public that it's presidents enjoy something akin to a royal privilege. this is a republic, not a monarchy, and if the justice department can prove its claims, and donald trump belongs in prison. that last sentence, and if the justice department can prove its claims, then donald trump belongs in prison. at this point, and we've seen some republicans take this position that, let's see how this plays out. let's listen -- some people didn't want to say anything until they saw, it chris christie says i don't get my information from truth social, i want to see the indictment. then we saw the indictment and when you can say from the

indictment is jack smith and his team seemed to have done the work, but that still does not a conviction make. >> it absolutely doesn't, and with any defendant, when you're reading and indictments, you're reading one side of the story. that's where we have charles, that's why donald trump is not convicted in the media. you're going to have a trial, donald trump will be able to present his evidence, he's going to be able to question the evidence presented by the department of justice, so we can't prejudge the case. what we can say, what we can say about the indictment, based on the evidence that is on its face to, based on the legal arguments that are contained was it, and whether it's credible. whether this is the kind of indictment we would see with somebody else, and the answer to that is absolutely yes. i'm having the sense of déjà vu because on the one hand, you have republicans since 2016, 2016, 2015, pushing donald trump would go away. but then publicly not willing

to cross him. that is still the case now, there are a lot of republicans who really want this to end donald trump's political career, but they are not willing to say, it and it's reminding me a bit of the 2020 election contest where a lot of right-wing media had primed the entire white wing right-wing public to mistrust election results. when the arizona call was made, you're like wait a minute, you told me not to trust this. i think the same thing is happening here, you have an entire way to clean public that is being sold do not trust the fbi, and then the doj incites trump, and they are expecting everyone on the right to reject that. they get angry if they don't, and in a lot of ways, these politicians are living in the world that they created with their own conspiracy monger-ing and they're trapped in it, and it's extremely dangerous. >> good to see you as always, thank you for joining, us david french is an opinion columnist at the new york times, he's the author of the book divided we

fall, america's succession threat and how to restore our nation. be sure to join me tonight, i'll be back to continue our special coverage of the indictment of donald trump, i'll be joined by my colleagues, katie phang, jonathan capehart, at least menendez, simone -- and i will be there to. that's a theme tonight, only on msnbc. msnbstraight ahead, the latest n the 38 count federal indictment against the former president and his aide, but we know right now, what we should expect in the coming days, and what effect is going to have on the future of american democracy. another hour of velshi begins right now. >> good morning. it's saturday, june 10th, i'm ali velshi. we now have at our disposal 49 pages of rich detail, including photographs, transcripts of recordings and text messages, alleging a post presidential crime spree by donald trump. the indictment unsealed yesterday afternoon revealed that both former president

trump and his personal valet, walt nauta, have been indicted in the case. trump alone faces 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information, and one count of false statements. both men are charged with one count each of conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document, corruptly concealing a document, concealing a document in a federal investigation, and a scheme to conceal. nauta has a separate charge for making false statements. the government alleges in its indictment that trump was not nearly a passive bystander that got caught up in this ordeal. he was an active participant who was personally involved in the process of packing up documents as he was set to leave the white house and quote, caused scores of boxes, many of which contain classified documents, to be transported to the mar-a-lago club in palm beach, florida. end quote. those documents included quote, information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states in foreign countries, the