morning, saturday june the 10th, i'm ali velshi, and in the united states no one is above the law, including a man whom the public elected to the highest office in the land, and interested with the country's most sensitive and closely guarded secrets. but the twice impeached and now twice indicted ex president donald trump repeatedly demonstrated, both over the course of his turbulent presidency and as he begrudgingly left office, that he believed he was above the law. as the national archives reiterated in a press release this week, ever since the disgraceful and of richard nixon's own administration, the presidential records act has requires that all records recreated by presidents and vice presidents be turned over to the national archives at the end of each administration. that law also, quote, makes a legal status of presidential records clear and unambiguous,

providing that the united states reserves and retains complete ownership, possession and control of presidential records. for more than a year, and despite multiple opportunities to remedied situation and return materials that rightly belong to the federal government, donald trump refused to cooperate time and time again. as we know now from the indictment unsealed by the department of justice yesterday, the former president and his personal valet, and now codefendants, walt nauta have both been indicted. trump along faces 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information, and one count of false statements. both men are also charged with one count each of his conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document, corruptly concealing a document, concealing and documents in a federal investigation, and a scheme to conceal. not to has also in charge for making false statements. the government alleges in his indictment that it's not only a

passive bystander that got caught up in this ordeal, he was an active participants who was personally involved in the process of packing up documents as he was set to leave the white house and, quote, cause scores of bounces, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to the mar-a-lago club in palm beach, florida, and quotes. those documents were no ordinary documents. they included, according to the indictment, quote, information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries. united states nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to militarily attack and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack, and quote. once boxes that included hundreds of these types of sensitive documents arrived at mar-a-lago, back in january of 2021, they were shuttled from one room to another across the property. stored out in the open. for the first few months, some boxes sat on a stage of an event space known as the white

and gold ballroom before they were moved to a business centers, and some boxes were stored in a bathroom. stacked high above the marble floor, surrounding the toilet, and blocking access to the shower. but notably leaving access to the toilet open. more than any boxes were moved to a storage room in the summer of 2021, piled high along the walls of the room, in at least one instance, some boxes in the storage room fell over, causing documents to spill out, including one marked secret, that was information that was, quote, releasable only to the five eyes intelligence alliance, consisting of australia, canada, new zealand, the united kingdom, the united states, and quote. i want to read you one section of the indictment, about how donald trump was treating these documents. quote, on july 21st, 2021, when he was no longer president, trump gave an interview in his office at the bedminster club to a writer and publisher in connection with those in forthcoming book. two of trump's staff also attended the interview, which was recorded with trump's knowledge and consent.

before the interview, the media had published reports that the end of trump's term as president, a senior military official reportedly feared that trump might order an attack on a country a, and that's a senior military officer advised trump against doing so. i've honda greeting the writer publisher and his two staff members, trump stated, look what i found. this was a senior military officials plan of attack. read it, and just show, it's interesting, and quote. later in the interview, trump engaged in the following exchange. trump, while the senior military official, let me see that, i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack country a. isn't that amazing? i have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. look, this was him, they presented me this, this is off the record but they presented me this. this was him, this was the department of defense and him. the writer responds, wow, trump, we look at some, this was him, this wasn't done by me, this was him, all sorts of stuff, pages long, look.

staffer, trump. wait a minute, let's say here. staffer, laughter, yeah. trump, i just found isn't that amazing, this totally wins my case, you know. staff are, yeah. trump, except it is like highly confidential. staff are, yeah. trump, secret, this is secret information, look, look at this, you attack, and by the way, isn't that incredible? staffer, yeah. i was just thinking, because we talked about it, i know he said he wanted to attack country a, this was done by the military and given to me. i think we probably, we can probably, right? staffer, i don't know, we'll have to see. yeah, we'll have to try. trump, declassify it. staffer, figure out a, yeah. trump, see, as president, i could've declassified it. stuffer, yeah. coultrump, now i can't, you kno. but this is still a secret. staffer, yeah. now we have a problem. trump, isn't that interesting?

so that is what we're talking about in terms of mishandling documents here, but that's only one aspect of the case. the government also alleges that the former president, quote, endeavor to obstruct the fbi and grand jury investigations. for a period of time, trump repeatedly ignored the fbi's order to return all these documents and for the indictment, he even suggested to one of his lawyers that he or she lied to the fbi and the grand jury and tell them that he did not have some of the documents that had been subpoenaed. during his first official public appearance as special counsel yesterday, jack smith emphasized the importance of enforcing laws that protect national defense information in order to keep the country safe and secure. meanwhile, when president biden was asked about the indictment, he said, quote, i have no comment at all. next week is going to be another active one, trump is scheduled to be arraigned and a miami courthouse on tuesday, june the 13th, the day before his 77th birthday. after his arraignment, he'll fly to his golf course in bedminster, new jersey, well he will hold a combined birthday

celebration and fund-raiser for his ongoing presidential campaign. for the latest on the story, let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, can the lady, who is outside the federal courthouse in miami where this is all going to go down on tuesday. can, good morning to you, thank you for your great reporting on this. tell us about the charges that donald trump is facing a what comes next for him in this process. >> great to see you, ali. the word that republican presidential campaign, chris christie, used to describe this indictment was devastating, and that's exactly the word that came to mind when i started reading is. i've been covering every little movement in this case, and this indictment is much stronger than i or anyone expected. on so many levels. first of all, the seriousness of the national security information, we knew it was top secret, we knew from the search warrant that there was some very damaging secrets here, but this indictment goes further, confirming the reporting that some of these documents

involved american nuclear programs and weapons capabilities, and the capabilities of other countries. so you have the seriousness of the documents issue, you have this obviousness with which the former president handled, and as you described, they're the documents filling, stored in a private club where thousands of people were going through. then more importantly than all that, you have the dissemination, what you described there, the transcript of the tape recording that you read was an active it dissemination. donald trump was showing and talking about classified material to people who weren't cleared to see it. there's another instance of that -- he was in charge of the espionage act with dissemination, but this is really important, there is a line of thinking that's was like, well, he had access to the stock humans, he took them back to mar-a-lago, but what was really the harm because who saw them. well, people saw them who weren't supposed to see them, and many, many people have gone to prison for less than that. and then you have this obstruction conspiracy, which, even if you took that out of

the indictment, it would be an extremely powerful indictments. this obstruction of justice justice conspiracy electric when donald trump and his valet and butler, walt nauta. it is also just mind-boggling, the extent to which -- donald trump tried to hide from the department of justice and from his own lawyers, his knowledge and understanding of the classified documents. and then we learned so much for this indictment. remember, there was a lot of people who said, well it's not like the president packed his own boxes when he left the white house. yes he did, according to this indictment, he actually part some of his own boxes. so, professor ryan goodman says he has looked at every espionage act -- in history, and this is the most egregious fact pattern he has ever seen. ali. >> thanks very much for your continued reporting on this, we always appreciated it, and we see news justice and intelligence correspondents, can delaney and, in miami. if for more on this, let's bring in mary mccord, former acting assistant, attorney generally -- at the department of justice. she's also an msnbc legal

analyst and -- assistant director for counter intelligence with the fbi, an msnbc national security analyst, and the author of the fbi way, inside the bureau's code of excellence. good morning to both so you, thank you for being with us. frank, let me start with you, throughout his presidency, donald trump offered often travel to mar-a-lago and to his other properties like bedminster. it's well-known spot for him to spend time in and do work. now that we have more details from the indictment about how and where classified documents were handled and stored at mar-a-lago, what's your assessment regarding the actual national security risk or threat posed, not just by having the boxes there, because that part we can see on the camera, but the passage that i just read that indicates that donald trump knew they were there, knew he wasn't supposed to have them, and was clearly talking to people about them. >> you know, ali, as someone who spent 25 years of my career trying to protect and preserve

classified information, trying to develop the most sensitive sources, really that the united states government can have, reading this indictment caused means to cringe. the scope of the national defense information here is extremely broad. on one page of the indictments, they list the agency from inside the united states intelligence committee that our victims of the former president, meaning they had documents found at mar-a-lago. they include the national security institute, the national geospatial agency, the central intelligence agency, the department of energy. we're talking about the agencies that were with the most sensitive programs and techniques that we have available to us. when they look at the complete sustain the former president had for any kind of preservation, sensitive information, displaying it cavalierly at bedminster, attack plans, nuclear plans,

one has to understand the background here. foreign intelligence services are constantly trying to target and penetrate a president or former president and his or her family. and so, mar-a-lago existed with a giant bull's-eye on the property, and numerous foreign nationals have been exposed publicly as being able to penetrate. what concerns me most, ali, is what we don't know about the counter intelligence challenges at mar-a-lago, and who got their. there's a glimpse of it in the indictment, which refers to the hundreds of thousands of people who trapped through mar-a-lago during the period of interest in this investigation. >> and mary, there are people, mark zain will tell you, at least a phone will tell you, the u.s., possibly, classifies too much stuff and doesn't declassify things in a timely manner. that wouldn't apply to any of the stuff that's referred to in this indictment. the stuff in this indictment, as frank was saying, refers to

nuclear plans, attack plans, defense plans on other countries. that's not the stuff people complain that we overclassify. >> based on the description of the documents for which the 31 counts of unlawful retention of national defense information, based upon the descriptions, i agree. it does not seem to be the kind of thing that is a case of overclassification. these seems to be things that are very properly classified, in fact, many as i'm at the top secret level, and even in special access program levels. remember that classified information is not just that a person needs to have a clearance to see it, they need to have a need to know. these are things that are highly, highly protective and again, it doesn't seem to be a case of overclassification. i would note, also something that was really noteworthy in the indictment in self, which is quoting from the former president in 2018, actually saying that as a commander in

chief, he had a unique constitutional responsibility to protect the nations clots of fide information, including controlling who has access to it. this is what this man said when he was the president. yet, his callous disregard for the classified information, is storing it all over mar-a-lago, including in fall rooms and bathrooms, showing it to people, clearly without classification clearance or a need to know, shows that he was very well aware of what his responsibilities were and he completely and utterly neglected them, flaunted them. and appears he uses information for its own purposes. that's a love piece we don't know. the two examples i've been showing and sharing classified information seem to be just personally self-motivated what do we not know what frank said. let's talk a little bit about what we do know, frank? this describes this previously -- auto recording that donald

trump says on tape that he's got classified and formation about iran. trump's lawyers have said they have not been able to locate that documents, because trump is a known liar and fabricator. we don't know what was making it up or whether he described it as something in this indictment he is referring to that. because when we say country a that is redacted information. donald trump didn't say country a. they said the name of a country. how confident are you the government has been able to recover either everything that they are supposed to have from donald trump or everything they need for this indictment? >> so first, of course, the audio recording is not necessarily about the document and the information but rather, trump's own admission that these are still classified right? his defense the eye declassified everything falls apart their. but now he is admitting, with his own voice, no. i didn't declassify these.

but i'm extremely concerned and not confident at all, ali, that the u.s. government has actually recovered all of the documents unlawfully retained by the former president. remember, they have not executed a search warrants at bedminster, right? this focus is on bedminster, new jersey. so, no. the fact that a possible document referring to attack plans regarding iran or some other unnamed country is out in the wind and we don't know whether he was bluffing posting, making it up, whether the document really says what he claims, it's extremely disturbing and makes us wonder what else is out there? >> if you too can hang on with me, i want to take a quick break and come back. there's much more you want to get to. mary and frank. nd frank

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assistant director for counter intelligence for the fbi. mary, the 2024 presidential race is in full swing. since this indictment, donald trump and his republican allies have been accusing the biden administration and the doj of engaging in what they call election interference. generally doj policy is to avoid or at least, try to avoid, getting tangled up in election related situations. what makes this different? >> well, for one thing, this is an investigation that was going on before donald trump ever declared his candidacy, before president biden ever declared his candidacy. it was going on because of the significance of the allegations, which we have now seen in print in this indictment. that investigation was opens after there was many many months of the national archives and former president trump about returning presidential records to the archives, where they belonged.

as you said at the top of the hour, these are government documents. they are not presidents personal documents. that even includes the unclassified stuff. when i left the government after almost 25 year career, i walked out with nothing. nothing in my hands, except for my own personal items. by personal items i don't meet any government papers. so, after that, after that lengthy amount of time and the knowledge that, and once i receive that, seeing that was classified information in the 15 boxes that were sent back to the archives, the fbi had no choice but to open an investigation to see what else might be there. and not only did the fbi need to open an investigation, by our national intelligence community needed to do its own review of what were the threats to national intelligence. so i think this is an entirely different from opening some sort of case after someone has declared candidacy. i would also say, you know, that the president of justice

tries to never take any action that could be perceived as politically motivated. but if you read this indictment, you really read this indictment, i don't care if you're republican, independent, or democrat there is nothing political in this indictment. this indictment is all about the facts. i assume, because that is the standard for the department of justice, these charges and these allegations would not be in the indictment unless the government feels it has evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt everything it allege there. this is just part different than any matter where the government could be accused of trying to but a thumb on the scale of an election. i think, in fairness, anyone who takes the time to read that will have to agree with that, regardless of what they say for their own political purposes. >> frank, the other thing i'm concerned about, to mary's point, is we don't know who else these documents went to, who saw them, who got them

inadvertently, who got them deliberately, because they were targeting mar-a-lago or who donald trump show these two. because to mary's point, there may be american lives in danger because of this. this is not just, this wasn't the budget from 2017 he happened to be carrying around with him. this is actual stuff about possible military plans. >> indeed. and again, back on the theme of what we don't know, i can tell you someone who had a counter intelligence for the fbi is it's quite likely that the intelligence agency is victimized by the former president had to take actions. to correct or remedial exposure. you have to assume what at mar-a-lago was gone. exposed. it means is quite likely that there will be stories that maybe won't never be told about exfiltrations of human sources. turning off techniques and

sensitive, technical capabilities, so they wouldn't give off emissions and be discovered because maybe, somebody got access to these documents. changing plants all of this going on because of a former president. >> it's amazing. thanks to both of you for kicking this off. mary mccord is the former acting assistant general for national security at the department of justice and frank the glues is a former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi, author of the book, the fbi way inside the bureau's code of excellence. a quick programming note. tonight, i'll be back to continue our special coverage of the indictment of donald trump. join me and my colleagues, katie feng, a man ahead, jonathan capehart, alicia menendez, and some of sanders townsend, a pm eastern, for in-depth importing and analysis. straight ahead, one of the people helped lay the case against donald trump during a second impeachment trial, the representative stacey plaskett. her message is clear. she says it then and she says it now, no one in america is above the law. more velshi, in a moment.

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unsurprisingly rallying behind donald trump in the face of his historic federal indictment. but just they did after trump was charged by the manhattan d.a.. leaders in the party are focusing their ire on those bringing the charges making patently false claims that department of justice has been weaponized against donald trump by the biden administration. turning now it's representative stacey plaskett of the u.s. virgin islands, who now serves as the ranking member of the house select subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government. she is also a house manager in the second impeachment trial of donald trump, and in addition to being a friend of the show, she spent time in the justice department. so, you know a lot of parts of what has gone down in the last few days. i worry so much about all of this talk about the weaponization of the federal government, because that is

actually a real concern that, in history, has been a real thing in america, and right now, with republican control of the house, seems to be a real threat. but this, the prosecution of donald trump for actual crimes allegedly committed, it's not weaponization of government, it's the process of the department of justice. >> correct. and thank you so much for having me, ali. we know the past history that there have been instances where the fbi the department of justice, have not done justice for people. and i've been used to look into americans doing things that, at the time, the fbi was not interested in. whether it was the black panthers martin luther king, other individuals. but to say that the entire rule of law for united states should be dismantled should be defunded, because it is looking into white nationalists, insurrectionists, and president trump, is absolutely ludicrous and very, very dangerous.

and that is what my colleagues, such as jim jordan, comer, as well as speaker mccarthy are doing to lay a foundation for americans not to believe the indictment and not to believe a conviction of president, former president trump. >> you've been so specifically involved in the sorts of facts about what donald trump, particularly as it related to january six, which has not been charged here yet, if it's going to, be what he's been involved with. and it occurred to me, given all the detail you half and the january six committee has, and everybody else has, what you've seen with your own eyes, that there is no conceivable set of facts that will cause some of your colleagues, whom you just mentioned on the republican side, to acknowledge that donald trump has transgressed the law and is responsible for some of the bad things going on in this country. there are exceptions. there are exceptions. there are some republicans, some republican senators, some members of the house, some candidates who are running, and

others who do believe donald trump is a scourge on the republican party and democracy. but generally speaking, facts are not persuasive to the majority of republicans in the house. >> that's correct. you, know i also say on the intelligence committee. so, looking at what the president has put at stake, our national security, as well as the lives of great americans who are out there in the field doing the analysis, doing the work to protect our democracy, it's absolutely enraging that he is continually looking to gratify himself. you know, when i was on the oversight committee, congressman raskin and others, myself included, also put a lawsuit that is still going on against president trump for, at that time, not sharing information, not sharing information about his use of the, one of the buildings he had his hotel in. do you remember that?

we believe he was getting grift. and i'm no great fan of chris christie running for president, but he says it best. this is an entire grifted family that is always looking for their own enrichment at the expense of others, whether it's their own attorneys, people who work for, them or the greater american people at large. >> in a little while, i will be talking to a couple people who were involved in watergate. one of the distinctions there is republicans and democrats, republicans knew that their republican president was a liability and had done something wrong, and, largely people -- on that one. in this particular case, you actually tweeted, i call on my republican colleagues not to weaponize congress to the benefit of a man at the expense of our republic. liz cheney had said something similarly a year ago, saying donald trump will ultimately be gone, but you, who support him,

the stain on your history will remain. >> yes. you know, sometimes when i'm on the weaponization committee, i have to look across at my colleagues on the other side of the dais and i think, do they really believe this? are they absolutely, have a drink so much kool-aid they have fallen in line with this, or they're just saying it to retain power? and i think for each one of them, it's a little different. but there are some true believers in their, who believe that donald trump speaks for them. and it's really about their own personal grievances, if use of racism we see in this country, feeling that they are going to be quote, replaced. so, they do not want a regular americans to have the full benefits of our constitution. so, it's for us, for you, you are doing it here on the air. regular americans do it at the voting booth. us in congress have to do it as being truth sayers and being a block on the scourge on our

democracy. >> let's talk about the paranoia being ramped up. we've seen some of your republican colleagues talk about second amendment stuff, guns, you're gonna have to go through may to get to trump, rolling stone is reporting an increase in violent rhetoric throughout sort of maga forums online. which, you will recall, was the same sort of thing that precipitated the january six count. on one hand, i don't see a whole lot of americans prepared to go out, even if they are trump supporters, and put their lives and safety on the line to protest for him. on the other hand, i don't live in these forums! i don't know what motivates people to say this is the last straw. what's your concerns about the safety of the country right now? >> well, you know, i think we saw after the new york indictment, when trump called his people to come and rally, that they didn't, that that was a sigh of relief to law enforcement. i don't know what the federal indictment, which has attached to its issues of espionage, which have not only serious

jail time, but disqualification for his ability to run for president in it, as being real threats on him, and i'm not sure what his people will do concerning that. so, i think it's really important not just for you now, social media and others to be very careful about what they will and will not allow in some of these spaces, but also, again, calling on members of the republican party, who are the ones who are speaking to this space, too tamp down that rhetoric as well. it's a real threats, and we don't want our law enforcement to, once again, be hurt, maimed, and some killed defending our democracy. >> congresswoman, thank you for being with us. debra democratic representative stacey plaskett of the u.s. virgin islands. right now, donald trump remains a gop front runner for 2024 by a lot. so, let's say he wins the republican nomination for president. and he wins the general election and becomes president. and he's convicted of federal crimes. could he potentially pardon

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we could see sometime in the future. what if donald trump is convicted and wins the 2024 general election? there's a lot of murkiness about whether trump would have the ability to pardon himself if we regain the presidency.

senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has more. >> it's a question that's never been asked before, because it happened happened before. could a president pardon themselves for their own crimes? former president trump thought so. back in 2018 talking about allegations he colluded with russia. >> i do have an absolute right to pardon myself, but i'll never have to do, it because i didn't do anything wrong. and everybody knows. it >> experts say the potential for a self pardon is not so clear. >> a lot is left open to interpretation. >> we just have to wait and see. >> we would have to litigate it and we have to see. >> here's why it's such a complicated question. the constitution does not specifically gets into whether it's allowed, saying only the president shall have power to grant pardons, except in cases of impeachment. that's. it nothing on self pardons. the justice department tried to clear things up back in 1974, right before richard nixon got impeached. in a memo, the doj determined basically no, a president

cannot self pardon, because no one could be a judge in their own case. >> just like we don't let people be the prosecutor or the judge or the jury in their own case, the argument goes, you can't be the pardon or in your own case. >> since then, that legal opinion has never been tested, until maybe now. if mr. trump ought to win the white house in 2024, he could try to pardon himself on those new federal charges within minutes of a doctor issued. but experts say it would very likely go to the supreme court to decide whether that self pardon would hold and remember, it's a court that has a conservative majority, because of the nominations of mr. trump himself. >> the court we have right now is one i think is very receptive to the prospect of broad presidential power. >> keep in mind, these new federal charges of not the only legal issues faced by mr. trump. you've been charged in new york related to hush money payments and has pleaded not guilty, but those are state level crimes. so, a presidential pardon is off the table there. >> the clause in the constitution limits presidents pardon powers to offenses against the united states.

commonly understood to mean federal offenses. >> down in georgia, mr. trump also faces that investigation built around his 2020 election fraud lies. he denies any wrongdoing there, but the potential to pardon himself would depend on the specific charges the district attorney might bring, and whether they were to involve multiple states or jurisdictions. say, georgia, along with d.c.. again, it's that federal forces state difference. >> once it becomes federal, then there is that possibility of a presidential pardon. so, that's a reason to keep things if you are the state prosecutor. >> bottom. line could trump pardon himself on at least some counts if he ends up in the white house? he could try, but whether it sticks will almost certainly depend on what the supreme court says. of course, if he doesn't win, whoever is in the white house could simply pardon mr. trump themselves on those federal charges, at least one current competitor suggesting they are open to it. >> would you look at potentially pardoning trump himself based on the evidence

that might emerge of those charges? >> the doj and if you have been weaponized. an example of disfavored treatment based on politics or weaponization would be included in that review, no matter how small or how big. >> hallie jackson, nbc news. ig >> hallie jackso n, nbc news. >> all right, coming up, unlike donald trump richard nixon was never actually impeached. he resigned the presidency before that could happen. then, he was pardoned by his predecessor and former vice president. or, kiss successor and former vice president. before he could be indicted. after the break i'll talk to two people who lived that history about the lessons we could take from watergate. m watergate. just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself.

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with her nixon's watergate scandal with talking about the many investigations into donald trump both as impeachments go, as impeachment proceedings got underway nixon resigned. he was subsequently pardoned before he could be indicted. that's not the case for trump, who had been indicted now on 37 federal counts. it is possible that richard nixon's clean record and the precedent set by his pardon could contribute to donald trump's sense of being above the law. joining me now are two women who each played a role in the watergate investigation. jill wine-banks is the former assistant watergate special prosecutor. she's also an msnbc contributor

and the co-host of the sisters in law podcast. also with me is a little bit paul, holtzman, the former united states congresswoman from new york who sat on the house judiciary committee when the panel voted to impeach richard nixon in 1974. these two women have a great deal of experience when making these comparisons. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. jail, i don't know what you're wearing in terms of opinion today, but earlier this week, you are wearing a pin of toast. because you felt that, as a result of this donald trump, he is toast. so, you think the charges are good, that this will possibly result in a conviction. does that then address the pardon issue? what do you think about that? . >> well, let me say i thought he was toast before i even saw the indictment, which only confirms my original judgment. it is a very strong case, very well laid out in the indictment. in terms of pardon, it is, as you've said in your last segment, undecided.

it's going to be up to the supreme court. there is the possibility the court will say you can't pardon yourself, you can't be a judge in your own case. but given the supreme court, there is no guarantee. we can't count on them to reach a fair and just decision, and it was a shame that gerald ford pardoning nixon, because we wouldn't be going through even the question of can a former president be indicted. if my team had indicted him, something i very much wanted to do, while he was the sitting president, because i don't think the office of legal counsel opinion is a valid one. i don't think there is a constitutional impediment to indicting a sitting president, and there certainly is no question there isn't one for a former president. >> lays, you've held the same view. you felt that's the office of legal counsel information or guidance or whatever you are lawyers call it is that.

it's different. and perhaps, should have been treated differently with donald trump. this guy, when he's president, he says you can't charge a precedent. when he's not president, he says his weaponization. ron desantis, who would love to see something bad happened to donald trump, is talking about the department of justice and fbi weaponization. no one on trump's side of the ledger will address this very big indictment and the details therein, which looked quite serious. >> well, the indictment is very serious. it's damning, and you know, all things being equal, it should result in that conviction. of course, we don't know whether but judge who tried to obstruct the search warrant and the examination of documents that aren't seized by the fbi at mar-a-lago is going to try to obstruct this prosecution. but i hope that is not the case. i also don't think the president can pardon himself.

i think that i've actually written on the subject and done some research. if you read the debates of the constitutional framework, they did not anticipate a president would pardon himself. at all. that is language that suggests to the contrary. but i think that the pardon of richard nixon was interrupted the process, and caused gerald ford to be defeated. and if people think that ron desantis, donald trump, that they could get away with this, they can. can't. actually, the pardon itself might be an abuse of power and impeachable offense, if not a crime. >> let's take a quick break. i want to continue this conversation, because, lacey brought up the judge in this case and how that may be complicating things. we've talked about the fact that a potential pardon attempt could be headed to the supreme courts, if that is the case, i want to discuss both of those things with you on the other

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the theory on which you've pardon richard nixon was that he had suffered enough. and i, i'm interested in that theory, because the logical consequence of that is that somebody who resigns in the

face of virtually certain impeachment, or somebody who was impeached, should not be punished, because the impeachment or the resignation in face of impeachment is punishment enough. i wondered whether anybody had brought to your attention the fact that the constitution specifically says, states, that even though somebody is impeached, that person shall nonetheless be liable to punishment according to law. >> mrs. holtzman, i was fully cognizant of the fact that the president, on resignation, was accountable for any criminal charges. but i would like to say that the reason i gave the pardon was not as to mr. nixon himself, i repeat, and i repeat with emphasis, the purpose of the pardon was to try and get the united states, the congress, the president, and the american people focusing on the serious

problems we have, both at home and abroad. and i was absolutely convinced then as i am now that if we had had this series, and indictment, a trial, a conviction, and anything else that transpired after that, that the attention of the president, the congress, and the american people would have been diverted from the problems that we have to solve! and that was the principal reason for migrants-ing of the problem. >> that, elizabeth holtzman, joins me now. jill wine-banks's with meat now. that's almost 50 years old now. it's aged remarkably well, in so far as i'm still hearing that argument, liz holtzman. i'm still hearing, we've got other things to do than indict donald trump and deal with this stuff! we've got china and inflation and ukraine and the price of eggs and all this kind of stuff. tell me your thoughts, 50 years after that, almost 50 years later? >> my views on that haven't

changed, because the issue of the pardon has to do with our democracy. yes, we have issues in china, russia, ukraine, inflation. we'll always have those kinds of issues. but preserving our democracy, that allows us to deal with those issues as we have in the past. if we destroy our democracy, if we allow presidents to become autocrats, we allow presidents to pardon themselves, then that's what we have. we're down the road to tyranny. and that's one of the reasons that the president can't pardon himself or herself, because that allows the president to act with impunity to commit crimes and in the oval office and never be held accountable for them, or crimes after the oval office. so, i'm totally opposed to the pardon. i think the other problem with the pardon is that it's may, it made other presidents feel impunity in office. i think particularly, donald trump. i suspect, i'm not sure about this, of course, it's all

speculation, that if nixon hadn't been pardoned, and the criminal process have been allowed to run its course, whatever the judgment ultimately was, that donald trump wouldn't have felt the right to behave as he had and to instigate and insurrection and to do all the other acts that he did in office that were either criminal or abuse of power. >> jill, i have a minute left. i suspect you feel the same way. that if this is not allowed to proceed the way it should, that in 50 years, three of us will be having this conversation again about back in 2023, they should've let that process play out, because so-and-so is now abusing it. >> i agree completely. i argued very strenuously with leandro or ski to allow us to indict the best we could get at the time of the original indictment was to name richard nixon and unindicted coconspirator. but i do believe that my friend liz holtzman has said it very well. that if we had gone ahead and indicted him, the evidence was

sufficient for conviction, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. then, donald trump mites, and i say might very, very strongly, might have learned a lesson and not done the crimes that he did in office, that are now so clear, as we can see in this indictment. it's very clear he's committed crimes. maybe he would have had a warning. maybe he would've ignored them, because he's got in the way with so much for so long, it's time for accountability right now. >> i'm glad we have both of you with your remarkable, not just institutional memory, of actual memory about what happened back then, to inform us about what we're looking at right now. jill wine-banks is a former assistant watergate special prosecutor and an msnbc contributor. and the former democratic congresswoman, elizabeth holtzman of new york. she was part of the panel, the congressional panel that's voted for the impeachment of donald trump. , i'm sorry, of richard nixon.