>> our breaking news coverage of former president of the united states, donald j trump being indicted on several counts since special

prosecutors, jack smith's investigation of the documents continues right now. this is a special, live edition of the last word. the new york times is reporting tonight that the charges include willfully retaining national defense secrets and violations of the espionage act. making false statements, and an obstruction of justice conspiracy, according people familiar with the matter. donald trump has been ordered to surrender for arrest in processing an arraignment in the federal court in miami on tuesday at three pm. here's what donald trump's lawyer said on television tonight. >> this is not biblically accurate, because i'm not looking at a charging document, i'm looking at a summary sheet. so there is language in here that might be reflecting a single, counted set of two. but i think there was a conspiracy count as well. >> so that means that there could be other indictments. have you been told that anyone else is indicted here? >> we went advised of anyone else being indicted. i have a theory that maybe some

of the outrageous misconduct has affected the occasion in some other case. of potential charges. but the bottom line is, all we know about is our client. >> donald trump has been ordered to surrender for arrest, processing and arraignment in the federal court in miami on tuesday at three pm. this is how we got to hear. four months after donald trump left the white house, the national archives said their first letter to donald trump. on may 6th, 2021, asking, politely, for the return of documents that belong to the united states government. nothing was returned. on january 17th, 2022, an archive contract arrived at mar-a-lago to load 15 boxes into a truck and transport them 1000 miles north to the national facilities. on may 11th, of 2022 last year, may 11th of last year a justice department issued a subpoena for any remaining documents that donald trump's florida residence. on june 7th, the justice

department returning j brett, went to mar-a-lago to collect the remaining documents subject to that subpoena. on that day, donald trump's lawyers gave jay bryant a written, signed a statement saying they were returning everything in donald trump's possession, subject to that subpoena, after what they called a diligent search. on august 8th of last year, august 8th, justice department officials in the fbi returned with a search warrant and seized over 100 documents marked classified as well as thousands of other government documents. attorney general merrick garland, appointed special prosecutor jack smith to oversee the case on november 18th of last year. now, six and a half months after jack smith entered the case, donald trump is facing serious federal criminal charges for which other people have received long prison sentences. leading off our discussion at

this hour tonight, is rachel maddow. neil katyal, bradley moss, a national security and former clerk for the national security office. and andrew weissmann, the -- in the eastern division as a professor in practice that nyu law school. and an msnbc legal analyst. neil katyal, i want to begin with you on an issue that has been really capturing a lot of intention and speculation. just this week, when we began to learn that the action in this investigation was shifting, or had shifted to florida, now we know that it has shifted to florida, what does the, what are the venue issues involved? >> yes, so first of all lawrence, i, think before we get of any. with the big picture here is that these charges, to, me are very important step. not just to protect our nation security, but also to preserve

the rule of law in america. because the indictment makes clear that no person, not even a former presidents could brazenly disregard the law without consequences. now ruth respective any, with the constitution says that you have to try a crime in the district in which the crime was committed, i certainly think it's possible for jack smith to have indicted donald trump in washington, d.c.. sure it would've raised some issues, but he certainly could have. but jack smith did something, and we've only been learning about this for the past week, he took the harder route. he charged in florida. and i do think that it is harder for a jury, to get a jury conviction in florida against trump. and yet jack smith did it anyway, and that suggests to me two possibilities. again, we're just reading tea leaves here, but two things. one is it suggests to me that jack smith is operating more on principle. he is not trying to game the system. and second, i think jack smith believes that his cases that

strong. that he can do it, even in florida, even with a judge like aileen cannon, who, you know, had the supervision last year. so smith could've indicted in washington, d.c.. that a relatively easy jury conviction, sure, then you may have been charged on appeal or something like that. but smith did not do that. he took the harder route here. and i think that signals to me how strong jack smith thanks the cases. >> andrew weizmann, and to everyone. please feel free to comment on each other's answers if you are so inspired. don't be limited to what i'm framing here. andrew weizmann, what is your reaction to what we just heard donald trump's criminal defense lawyer say? including that point, about he suspects there could be maybe some other indictment? but they don't know about anyone else indicted? >> sure, so clearly that was speculating that either mister

-- or possibly even mr. meadows is cooperating. i took it more as focused on --, but just to be clear if you have the department of justice in your calling someone to say your client has been charged. you do not tell them about another defendant. so it would be normal if there were two defendants that she would not tell them each that the lawyers can obviously talk to each other. so that did not seem unusual if mr. is just a codefendants. but it is possible, as the case gets to the very end. somebody who is thinking that they're not going to cooperate? there is nothing that focusing the mind like knowing that you're going to in fact be charged to have a lawyer sit down and say, look, which side of the view do you want to be on. so that is one of the open issues that remains to be seen. is exactly who is part of this conspiracy? i think another thing that

people should be looking for. we may know as soon as tomorrow. maybe longer. is, is there any evidence of dissemination? is there any sort of thing that says this was not just illegal retention. but also dissemination? so far we're not hearing that. because it's not been indicated as as separate type of crime. which could be. and obviously, the obstruction count could be quite devastating and the way that it is articulated by jack smith in the indictment. because it really could go through chapter and verse. far beyond what we understand. so far. because he has talked to so many witnesses. it could really recounts exactly what is going on with the boxes, all of the things that we have been speculating about could all be in there. and it could just be, like an incoming missile. when you look at this and go, my god, if you wonder why donald trump is being charged but mike pence is not being charged? you might rate this and go,

mike pence didn't do anything intentionally. and immediately did the right thing. which is as soon as he found something, he said, you need to come get this stuff. whereas, you could read about the indictment coming out, about chapter and verse, about obstruction. including not just false certification. but it could include tampering with witnesses as people have speculated. >> one thing mike pence did not do after it was revealed that there were documents found in his possession, it's go on television and say i had every right to take them. i could do anything i want with them, i could show it to people if i wanted to. he did not say that. let's listen to more of what donald trump's criminal defense lawyer said tonight on fox. t on fox >> why did you take those documents with you when you left the white house? >> i had every right to. under the presidential records act. i was there, i took what i took.

it gets declassified. i took the documents, i'm allowed to. >> did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really, i would have the right to. by the way, they were declassified. >> what do you may not really? >> not that i could think of. let me just tell you, i have the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right! >> do you still have any classified documents in your possession? >> are you ready? no. no. i do not have anything. i have no classified documents. and by the way, they become automatically declassified when they took them. >> the espionage act includes a whole bunch of language, not just that the documents implicate national defense. but that your intent is to violate the sovereignty of the united states. and to hurt the united states. or to help a foreign power. that is absurd under any theory of this case. and they've got a whole bunch of rotating theories, because they can't find the facts that they want. but there is absolutely nothing remotely like that. if he holds on to some documents. people packed documents, and he

has them in the storage room. even if he talks about those documents, or talks about the existence of them. that is lightly hours away from the specific intent that they need for an espionage case. >> we showed you a little more video than we plan to at that moment. but bradley moss, concentrating on what you just heard from donald trump's criminal defense attorney tonight. what is your reaction to that? >> like we discussed at the 10:00 hour, i think they are a little bit in over their head. if they do not understand the case law. the way that he just described, i don't know why he is on tv tonight. even though his client is just indicted. it's not right, but whatever. what he said is the intent is to harm the united states. the, that is not the intent requirements in the espionage act. the intent has to go to the willful-ness to retain the documents. the extent to which it was going to harm the united states is part and parcel in the fact that there was national defense information that cannot be

disseminated to an unauthorized party. there was a former cia officer, john, who tried this very argument that the james trusty is trying out right now. how there was no intent to harm the united states. and therefore, the espionage act provision could summarize the matter of law. it failed, because that's not what the statute says. and this is, again, this team does not understand the provisions that are an issue. that are going against her client. i don't know if their clients truly grafts the nature of these provisions. and what the attorneys are probably trying to tell him about the seriousness of these charges. but that is not the way the law is set up. and they better figure out fast, or if they are in for a world of hurt. >> donald trump was surprised, shocked about the indictment. and is now complaining to someone in his circle that he was hearing too much happy talk from his lawyers about this investigation. assuring him that he would not be indicted. and andrew weizmann, we heard

his lawyer who quit the case a few weeks ago. when he was beginning his public tv show discussions. the very first thing he said, two weeks ago, was he absolutely won't be indictment. total confidence. and when i listen to that, i said, they can't be saying that to trump. and if they are? that would be disastrous. but when you hear james trusty tonight. and he is saying some stuff that brad characterizes the way he does. he is representing a client, who has given him nothing. absolutely nothing to say on television in his defense. nothing. same thing with tim who has said nothing in donald trump's defense. so sure, he is misstating the espionage act. but he is doing that on fox. he's misstating the espionage act for a tv audience. when they hear espionage they

think, oh, well, then you had to take it. and give it to the russians. or the chinese. they think all of that. >> so, a reputable lawyer who should be what you get when you are the former president of the united states. i think of bob bauer, or david kendall, people who are at the very top of their legal profession. that is not who has been representing the former president and some of his colleagues. the idea that you would go on television as bradley said, when you have not seen the indictment. to then talk about the indictment? is just the height of irresponsibility. if you want to issue some short statement, fine. and you want that to be played on this network.

or a network that you view as a mouthpiece for you. it should not be this network. fine. to go on and say things that you know are not only just no basis in fact. it's just not good lawyering. yes, it may be where we are in terms of spreading more disinformation. that is not a lawyer's job. and that is the difference, i clerked for a judge that said that there is a difference between someone who says i am hired. versus i am retained. and what he meant by that is when you retain a lawyer. it is because you are part of a profession, and your obligation is to say no when a client wants you to do something wrong. like submit a false certification to the department of justice. or go on tv and spout a lot of nonsense. which, it's totally right. if you are a lawyer, the three of us are listening to this as

you play at. just shaking our heads because it's hard to know where to begin. because it's just not within the bounds of what a criminal statute provides, and what could be a possible legal or factual defense. e >> nail, what i hear and wheni listen to trump's defense lawyers speak. is i hear the strength, apparent strength of jack smith 's prosecution case. because i'm not hearing a single thing that penetrates any thing we know about the case. i'm not hearing a single thing that sounds like it could create reasonable doubt on some aspect of what we expect the evidence and the pleadings and the arguments to be in this case? >> that is exactly right, lawrence. when you talk about how donald trump was surprised by this indictment tonight, i don't think that anyone should have been surprised by this indictment. you and i were on tv the very first night of the mar-a-lago

raid saying this is going to culminate in a federal indictment. i think anyone watching this understands the law, understands that. i expect by the way that includes donald trump's own lawyers and i think it's easy from the sidelines to go and criticize or say things about them and i understand that but at the end of the day, this isn't about donald trump's lawyers and their abilities. they seem like fine lawyers. this is about the client, and what he did. when you have a client like this, who does these things, and then accent such an untrustworthy way? it's really hard to defend it. i mean, if you're one of his lawyers, there's no way that you could let him actually go and talk to the federal authorities, and have an interview with the fbi. because he would be worried that he is going to perjure himself. and if this thing goes to trial, as i expect it will. you cannot put donald trump on the stand because you could be possibly sorting, given all of

that. the real focus has to be on trump. and the legal team that he has got. and that is why, when you said lawrence, you listened to his lawyers and they do not have a defense. it's not because there are not good lawyers, it's because donald trump doesn't have a good defense. >> exactly. donald trump tonight, in his first fund raising effort on the indictment, said in his email. asking for money because he's been indicted. regarding doc, he said quote, regarding documents that i have the right to declassify as president. so there he is, entering more evidence in the case of his frame of mind. and we also have reporting that occurred today. which i have to say right now feels like, i don't know, a couple of weeks ago. but i was learning this this afternoon. that there is a former white house official who has said that he told federal prosecutors that donald trump

knew the proper process for declassifying documents. and followed it correctly at times while he was in office. and so, bradley moss, they have a witness. a former white house official who is prepared to testify. i know that donald trump knew what was required to declassify documents. and that sits. that sits beside all of these public statements of donald trump saying that he could declassify them by magical thinking, or simply by moving them from one room to another in the white house? >> classic misdirection by mr. trump here. so he likes to talk about this idea of declassification. so let's imagine for a second, it even mattered for the espionage act. it's not giving any proof that he declassified it. there's no staying order that's going to be provided. despite the fact that he talked about it. there is not going to be any documentation showing how he

declassified these particular records. and there's not going to be any evidence that he removed the classification markings on the records. which is what mattered, for purposes. neil knows this, andrew knows, it if you have classified information. you go based off on what's classified on the documents. they were all looking at the document. he will probably put forward the defense that the abstract theory, that because there is no limits on a present. an incumbent president on authority to declassify. that he could automatically declassified and therefore it was declassified when he left. fine, it still doesn't matter. the espionage act does not care if they are classified. it is national defense information. that is all that matters. it could've been declassified until they were blue in the face. they could still bring the charges. and the fact the feds have managed to bring a case under the espionage act, on unclassified information. i don't think they will need to, because it will be classified

anyways. but that's not a defense. as a political attack, he's got, and he needs to pay money. nothing more. >> well bradley moss, neil katyal, andrew weissmann, thank you very much for doing double duty tonight. and joining us into live broadcast of the last word. we really appreciate it. >> absolutely. >> thank you very much. >> we'll be right back with congressman, eric swalwell. man, eric swalwell enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. my little family is me, aria, and jade. just the three of us girls. i never thought twice about feeding her kibble. but about two years ago, i realized she was overweight. she was always out of breath. that's when i decided to introduce the farmer's dog to her diet. it's just so fresh that she literally gets bubbles in her mouth. now she's a lot more active, she's able to join us on our adventures. and we're all able to do things as a family.

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defense lawyers told a congressional committee in writing that donald trump did not intentionally take any classified documents, donald trump said this. >> why did you take those documents with you when you left the white house? >> i had any right to under the presidential records act. the presidential records act, i was there and i took what i took and. it gets declassified. i took the documents, i'm allowed to. >> did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really, i would have the right to. by the way, they were declassified. >> what do you may not? really >> not that i can think of. let me just tell you, i have the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right. >> do you still have any classified documents in your possession? >> are you ready? no. i don't have anything. i have no classified documents. and by the way, they become automatically declassified when i took them. >> joining us now is congressman, eric swalwell, he was an impeachment manager in

the second trump impeachment trial in the senate. congressman swalwell, we just heard trump say. where i took the documents i am allowed to. that sounds like a very direct confession to what we are likely to see in his indictment on tuesday at three pm. >> that's right lawrence, he also, said i have the right to do whatever i want to do and we have a prosecutor who is finally playing on donald trump side of the field. he is not intimidated by donald trump, i don't think that donald trump sets the terms of the investigation like player folks have done. and i think that's why it has come. i think it's a point where we're not just talking about indictments and documents that your viewers, and american people understand. that these are the most sensitive, top secret pieces of intelligence that protect our troops, that relate to nuclear secrets, that relate to war planning. he kept them to himself.

and why do we care about that? because the guy has priors. a guy that was willing to use $350 million of tax pair military it from ukraine to get blood on his opponent would certainly want to use those documents to have leverage to support himself. or find some type of financial benefit for himself. that's why it matters, that's why it's different than any other president handling for classified documents. >> in your experience on the intelligence committee in the house of representatives, what, what kind of material gets the classification level, i think you've just been addressing, this the kind of classification levels that we have been seeing in this case? >> it would be protecting sources and methods, meaning that if we were to recruit someone from another country to tell us about their nuclear program for their presidents plans and and tensions for whatever issue. we would want to protect the sources and methods that there

is classified at the highest level. so a limited number of people could see it. so the president has the highest access to classified information. lawrence, anytime i leave us a carrot, compartmentalized, information security. call the scif. we all do this. we all check ourselves to make sure that we don't remove anything, because it's drilled into you, and it's absolutely drilled into the president that if this stuff leaves a secured area, you put troops lives at risk. and he put troops lives at risk by keeping them for himself. we >> saw donald trump at various times, we saw sean hannity on television trying to help him. saying, i've known you for decades. in fact, let's just show this video tape of someone trying to help donald trump find his way to what he should say about this. let's listen to this. >> i can't imagine you ever say, bring may some of the boxes

that we brought back from the white house, i would like to look at them, did you ever do that? i >> would have the right to. there is nothing wrong with it. >> i don't think you would do it. >> i don't have a lot of time, but i would have the right to do that. i would do that. >> let's move on. >> remember this, this is the presidential records act. i have the right to take stuff. >> congressman swalwell, what we have seen all the way through this is, you can't help him if you try. his criminal defense lawyers have not been able to help him, they don't have a single, credible, public argument that the criminal defense lawyers have made and every time they make some assertion about, it donald trump comes out and contradicts them. >> this is a man whose entire life has cheated accountability. and bob mueller led donald trump draw the red line on his finances, and dictate that timeline, so that has only made donald trump more emboldened to believe he's above the law, not

less. now he's finally met somebody who is aggressively taking the facts, and applying the law. so today i think we should celebrate, not that donald trump has been indicted again, but that the rule of law is prevailing. it's working, and we should all of for donald trump the same, equal protection under the constitution, and due process under the law that any other defendant would get in america, and will survive this test of our constitution. >> congressman, eric swalwell, thank you so much for joining our discussion tonight. thank you. we have some breaking news at this hour from the new york times, reporting just moments ago, at 12:21 a.m.. former president donald j trump was gathered with his core political advisers in the office near his poolside cottage at his club in bedminster new jersey when his phone rang around seven pm on thursday. on the line, according to two people who acknowledge the call, was one of his lawyers informing him that he had been

indicted for the second time in less than three months. the new york times goes on to say, at 7:21 pm, he did what he used to do so often as president. he personally program the chyrons, in every news channel in the country. he broke the news of his own indictments. drafting and then sending a three-point statement on his social media network, truth social, that soon interrupted the nighttime shows on all of the news networks. we are going to squeeze in a break right here, when we come back we will be back with andrew weizmann, and bradley moss. radley moss sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas...

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reports filed by the new york times on when and how donald trump found out that he was indicted tonight. the new york times is reporting, former president donald j trump was gathered with his core, political advisers in the office near his poolside cottage at his club in bedminster, new york jersey. when his phone rang around seven pm on thursday, on the line, according to two people with knowledge of the call, was one of his lawyers. informing him he had been indicted. for the second time in less than three months. at 7:21 pm, donald trump began

drafting and then sending a three port statement. on his social media, truth social, but soon interrupted the night time news shows and. took over in effect are broadcasting tonight on this network. where back with bradley moss, and andrew weissmann. andrew, this, the scene will be in the movie. the many movies. and the books to come about this. that seven pm in new jersey. when donald trump is told, not just that he has been indicted for the second time in three months, but he is the first, former president in history to be facing federal charges and presumably in that quote call, he was told it is a seven count indictment? >> yes, that would be typical. the way that this would work is that a prosecutor would have called defense counsel and soon revealed that there has been an indictment.

they would say -- >> can i pause right there? why did they make that call. is it for arranging the surrender of the defendants? >> exactly. because they then need to ask the judge when is it that you want the defendant to show up? they need to communicate all of that. and then here, because you have a defendant who is under secret service protection. frankly, the only reason i can pick of. in terms of why this would be under seal. has to do with sort of, security concerns. because otherwise, this isn't a flight risk. you would basically just be able to have the charges, and everyone would know what they are. but here you would call up, you say i have made these calls. usually defense council, because they made a presentation to you. they know that this is what is going to happen. they do not know the nature, exactly when, they don't know the exact nature of the charges. so that's what you are conveying in that call. until there is an unsettling

order. the prosecutors cannot give the actual indictment to the defense council. so, there's waiting on that particular process. but this is all, sort, of stories that donald trump didn't anticipate this? i find that hard to believe. we've all been anticipating this. and certainly, his defense council. whatever you say about them, they're experienced enough to go to the justice department to appeal. it's not like they had any great argument to make. it's been, sort of, a lot of problem. but they knew this was going to happen. so this was an historic moment. they told the donald trump what was happening. this is the second time, as you said in less than three months. but we also have funny willis on record. saying that she is going to make a decision by august. she didn't say which way she was going to come out but we've have also seen. it there. so this is where we have heard

the tape. and it's very hard to see that that is not going to go forward. so that would be the third time. and then, the idea that jack smith is not going to bring a january 6th case seems farfetched may. so we could very much find ourselves with the front runner for the republican nomination. for the presidency of the united states. is under indictment for, four times. which is just truly remarkable. and as rachel said earlier, it's really more about what it says about our country than this type of person that was elected even once. and is leaving a major party when he has no business being behind bars. -- leader of the free world. >> bradley moss, it seems like a long time, as we sit here tonight. correct me if i'm wrong, i believe it's monday that donald trump's criminal defense

lawyers had a meeting with jack smith. and his prosecution team to try to convince them that donald trump committed no crimes? i had one of donald trump's former criminal defense lawyers, who was part of that team, until very recently. on this program last night. and i put it to him that it was their job when they went in there to tell jack smith something that he does not know. tell him something that they don't know about the evidence. and pretend to have a finding of not guilty. and he couldn't come up with anything? he agreed, in principle, that's what the job was in the room. but he never suggested any of the evidence that they could present to jack smith. that jack smith did not already know? >> correct, because in terms of the facts? they don't have anything to present. they're not going to be able to dispute how the boxes got there. and what trump was saying.

and who was moving boxes. that's not gonna be part of the real defense in the. ended are not going to try to draw it out to jack smith and his team. these arguments about what the espionage act really means. or how the declassification process really works. because they knew that wasn't going to play. all they had, the crux of their presentation. from what we understand of the media reporting. was to complain about prosecutorial misconduct. it's fine. this is a complaint you would raise, and certainly something you would raise in the presentation if you thought it was efficient and egregious enough. but what we've seen from the reporting. it is so peripheral, and i'm not sure it constitutes misconduct. that that's all they really had. you almost wonder what they wasted everybody's time for. not to mention their clients billable hours to present that. because that was never going to be enough to get jack smith to back off at this stage in the game. so they didn't have a whole lot. they went in for the meeting,

maybe they thought it would play well. maybe they thought jack smith would go back to talk to merrick garland first there was a concern. maybe they were worried about political implications. with the house republicans wanting to investigate this misconduct allegation. i do not know. but currently it did no help, no value for jack smith. and he ended up pushing forward with the indictment. which was four days later. feels like it was four months ago. >> certainly does. and your wiseman, bradley moss, thank you very much fair and valuable guidance on this historic night. appreciate every minute of your help. thank you. and coming up, our special coverage of the federal indictment of donald trump continues with nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss. who will join us next. oin us next. getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...!

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the presidency. effective at noon tomorrow. vice president we'll be sworn in as president. at that hour, in this office. >> that was president richard nixon on august 8th. 1974. and a month later, president ford pardoned then former president richard nixon from all crimes committed. while he was president of the united states. joining us now is nbc news presidential historian, michael

fleshless, michael i've been thinking about you all night since 7:30 pm or so when we learned about this. eager to ask you where we would be tonight, presidential lee, which is to say in president terms. if gerald ford had not pardoned richard nixon? >> i think we might not be tonight, lawrence, and by the way thank you for everything you have been saying on the air all weekend. i've learned so much as usual. but i don't think we are in this position necessarily of dealing with a president who was not only the first one to be under federal indictment. just think of it as science fiction. and it would be impossible. violation of the espionage act. the images of those boxes going on a plane? talk about why did trump,

seemingly lied to the national archives and say that there was no problem? rag his feet on setting the back. where are the papers now? do they give them to foreign governments? did he seldom? did he do this for some kind of favor? this is something that you and i have talked about richard nixon. this makes richard nixon look like a schoolboy. and my point would be. gerald ford, a well-intentioned man. but why on earth did he pardon nixon only 30 days after nixon resigned? what was his hurry? village cliff it was politically damaging to him, as i think he would agree. if he had waited a little while longer. he might not have sent so many republicans to defeat in that november election. so my point is, why was for it in such a hurry? and if he had at least waited for nixon to be indicted, arrested, fingerprinted, or maybe even jail for a night or two.

maybe someone like donald trump decades later would be with a little bit last cavalier about breaking all sorts of rules that might subject him to the same faith? >> you know that's exactly what i've been thinking. donald trump is a very very bad student. no matter what you expose him to in any class. and what it seems that what donald trump. bad student learned in 1974 was the president is above the law. and then when he became president. he thought he could live by the nixon roles which is that you are above the law. and nixon didn't get in any real trouble for it. >> totally agree with you and remember when nixon said to david for austin 1997 it makes me sick to recite it. but this is what he said. while, if the president does it. that means that it is not illegal. how dare he? after getting a pardon after having done all those things. that probably would've put him into prison for years.

and then nixon goes to new jersey and new york. and guess who sucks up to him for the duration of the 19 80s in the early 1990s? one donald trump. who writes him a letter saying, mr. nixon, mister president. you're one of our greatest presidents. i wish you would come and live in trump tower. flew him to texas on his private plane. so, you know, trump was in great proximity to nixon. absorbing the fact that nixon had done all of this stuff and got away with it? so when trump becomes the president later on. it is not exactly irrational for him to think that he can do that too. that might not have happened if donald trump remembered saying richard nixon in an orange jumpsuit. or being fingerprinted, or in court. >> yeah. and we remove this rhetorical point that donald trump gets to make tonight. is this has never happen to any other president.

and it could be much more meaningful to his followers to know that yes, it has. that presidents an ex president certainly can be held accountable by law. >> right, and in 1994. 1995. i went to see general forward in his home in colorado. which was on as ski run. nicest man on earth. well-intentioned. and i said, why did you pardon nixon so quickly? why didn't you at least wait for him to be fingerprinted. so that people would feel that there was equal justice in this country. and he said two things. number one, i did not have the stomach for this to go on. it was distracting people from my presidency. and they also took out of his wallet, as he did for many other people. a little card which was printed with a case called birdie versus the united states. 1950. which said that when somebody except a pardon, it is an admission of guilt. those things are never really

explain to me. and as much as i admire many things about general forwards many fine qualities. i think what we have seen in the last several years was a direct result of him being so quick about that. >> michael beschloss, thank you so much for joining us up in this historic night. really appreciate it. earlier this evening i spoke with rachel maddow about the federal indictment of donald trump. >> as he was going to the white house in 2016, he had to pay $25 million to settle fraud claims about his fake university. shortly thereafter, he had to pay a multi million dollar settlement. to shut down his fraudulent, fake charity. his business has been criminally convicted as a fraud. his cfo just got out of records. his campaign chairman served time in federal prison as a fraud. his campaign manager is awaiting trial on fraud

charges. with a person with that kind of track record. are we surprised that the person in the middle of all of that has been indicted? no, it's not surprising. what is surprising is that we put that person in the white house. and that is the problem. this is a political problem, is that the party. the republican party has lost the ability to police itself. to prevent itself from letting someone like that become the standard bearer and presidential nominee of their party. that is the problem. that is where the rubicon is croft. him getting indicted was a negative bit ability, probably from the time that his father first settled with the justice department. for not running apartments to black people. this is the way that his life has been built. the thing that changed in our country, irrevocably, is when the republican party put him at the top of the ticket. and they may get to it again. >> we will re-run that interview in fall. coming up at the beginning of the next hour. that is tonight's last word. our coverage of the federal indictment of donald trump continues after this break!

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