immigration shouldn't be a burden of republican states along the border. but instead what it does, it escalates this tension at a time when border crossings are actually going down. they're below 70%, a 70% decrease y from what they were in early may. so it's a time we're heading into the political season, there are governors who want to keep this at the forefront of the political debate even when the problem at the border and issues have completely changed. >> one governor in particular who is running for president, politics, certainly. julia ainsley, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> florida governor flying migrants from texas to other places. that does it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a new witness, a hunt for new lawyers and a very suspicious pool flood.

we are getting a wealth of new details today in the criminal investigation into donald trump's handling of classified documents thanks to some pretty stunning brand-new reporting. "new york times" reports this. "prosecutors are expected to question a new witness in front of a federal grand jury sitting in florida later this week. that is according to people familiar with the matter. at least one other witness has already appeared before that florida grand jury, which is separate from the one that has been sitting for months now in washington." why prosecutors have continue seened a separate grand jury from the one in d.c. is one of the mysteries, one of the major outstanding questions every one of us from the outside has regarding this case at the moment. "wall street journal" has described the action in the florida grand jury this way, as, quote, "tying up loose ends ahead of a decision on possible charges." bloomberg is reporting teem trump is bracing for that decision to lead to an indictment and a trial. from that reporting, "former

president donald trump has been exploring options to expand his legal defense team in connection with the federal criminal investigations led by justice department special counsel jack smith." that's according to people familiar with the situation. "trump representatives in recent weeks have asked for recommendations of washington-based counsel with trial experience ahead of any charging decisions from smith's team." we're also learning about a bizarre incident that ended up on jack smith's radar. it reportedly became a major focus for the special counsel as it pursued its obstruction case against donald trump. cnn reports this -- "an employee at donald trump's mar-a-lago residence drained the resort's swimming pool last october and ended up flooding a room where computer servers containing surveillance video logs were kept." that's according to sources familiar with the matter, talking to cnn. now, while it is unclear the room was intentionally flooded

or if it happened by mistake, the incident occurred amid a series of events that federal prosecutors found suspicious. the incident reportedly took place two months after the court-mandated search of mar-a-lago. cnn adds, "the circumstances may factor into a possible obstruction conspiracy case as investigators try to determine whether the events of last year around mar-a-lago indicate that trump or a small group of people working for him took steps to try to interfere with the justice department's evidence gathering." whether the justice department levels an obstruction conspiracy case against trump or anyone else is up to one man only, the special counsel himself. nbc news spotted a tight-lipped jack smith entering the justice department this morning. of course he refused to answer any of our questions. that's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. msnbc contributor carol linick

is back. former u.s. attorney harry lipman is back. and with me at the table for the hour, former senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill is here. claire, there are weeks when it's a little incremental advance, and then there are weeks like this one where there's sort of a splash of new details emerging that fill in the picture of what jack smith has been asked in terms of the evidence. from top to bottom and right to left, most people feel like it's the top of the iceberg. what do you see as a former prosecutor? >> i think the florida grand jury is probably a matter of convenience to witnesses that they are trying to pull in their testimony before an indictment. you know, the sign that shows you that it's near is the lawyers going to visit at justice for two hours. that is not uncommon for lawyers to come to the prosecutor just

prior to charging to make their final best and last case that there should not be charges brought. but this has become really a comedy of errors. now we're draining the swimming pool? i mean, this really is the keystone kops in terms of the old adage it's not the crime, it's the cover-up. >> mm-hmm. >> that's what's going to really hurt donald trump is the efforts he went to hold onto documents so he could brag. it is in some ways fitting for this guy that what brings him down and maybe not ultimately the only charges that bring him down but what could bring him down is just him trying to say it's mine, it's mine, i'm not going to give it to you, i'm going to keep it so i can brag about having it. >> the revelation that, you know, when i'm reading -- and we read everything obviously. we have reporting from bloomberg and the "wall street journal" and everywhere we find it to bear today. the thing that keeps playing

over and over in my head is the scoop from the weekend in "the new york times" that evan corcoran their rated a month tos' worth of interactions with donald trump on voice memos. and jack smith has had them for a while. judge beryl howell ruled on the exception months ago, i believe. when you see this reporting that a potential obstruction conspiracy is being committed or at least under scrutiny or perhaps hypothesized from the special counsel, what are we seeing in the public that would point to so many people being involved in so many apparent criminal acts? >> well, yes. the crime fraud exception being pierced by the judge and forcing an attorney, not like a legal adviser from television, but his actual legal attorney to turn

over all of his notes, which were transcribed, we know, from his iphone voice memo he made basically to remind himself what his legal work entailed and what his client had to say. those contemporaneous and bit of undisputable -- that account is super hopeful, but it tells you everything you need to know about how much obstruction evidence is in this case if you could get the lawyer's notes about what his client said. think about how stunning that is. i like the way that you pause sometimes on a day and say, wow, it feels different. i think it's important that we pause and remember what it means that an attorney had to turn over the actual words of his own client and how much criminal liability lies here for donald trump. and the grand jury and the

testimony there, claire has a good point about the convenience. i have been talking to prosecutors and former prosecutors this morning about this exact thing. their view is it's convenience but also tying up some important lose string. that is that if there are people who helped donald trump unwittingly, and their abts to place in florida, and they were not a willing participant or knowing participant in trying to obstruct a criminal investigation, those acts would be hard to charge in d.c. the venue for this, essentially. harry and claire can back stop my sources if they like in live television. but it would be hard to press and squeeze say a mar-a-lago employee who unwittingly helped donald trump and tried to sxwoo squeeze him and threaten him with charges in d.c., whereas the acts that he participated or she participated in were in

florida. so it seems to me that jack smith has had this greatly in hand. all the individuals who might be participants in this, who might be witnesses, you'll remember trump's lawyers belly aching about how almost every single employee of mar-a-lago had been deposed by jack smith. well, it turns out that kind of proved important for possible other evidence of obstruction. it turns out that may have been important in revealing after a subpoena, after it wasn't complied with in june, after an unannounced surprise raid at mar-a-lago in august and more records were found, that a pool was drained and a claim was made ironically right around the time more documents and surveillance tapes were being searched, a claim was made by trump employees that a surveillance tape was destroy preponderance of the evidence that is a lot of information that is kind of

being buttoned up and shared with us. so, interviewing all those mar-a-lago employees may have been a fairly important stroke of the special counsel's. and i just think that what we're seeing is like almost like the bow being tied on this case, which has been really, for all intents and purposes, nearly ready since the days before jack smith was named counsel in november of 2022. >> you know, if carol is short of sharing her reporter's notebook and some of this analysis, i'm thinking of trump's harry litman with michael cohen. i've got this thing worked out. alan and i have got this thing worked out. what if davidson is hit by a bus? trump chiming in, "pay cash, pay cash." we know what trump sounds like when he's a co-conspirator in a cover-up of a potential illegal act. this was a potential federal

campaign finance violation, so said the southern district of new york in michael cohen's sentencing memo. but the idea that all of these individual acts that in terms of what is public facing certainly looks like the keystone kops, there's no way there isn't an effort to understand what, if any, role trump played in all of them, including it would appear based on news accounts the draining of a pool. what do you with your expert prosecutorial and doj experience see in today's development? >> so, a couple things. first, you're surely right about the keystone kops aspect. we're down now to the dog ate it. not just the draining of the pool. the same guy nervously went to the i.t. head and said what happened? how long will these pictures last? the main guy down there flatout lied to the fbi and first said there was no involvement, then fessed up and said it was trump. so, if they're pursuing a

separate case in florida, it's likely about him or else they could be buttoning up the testimony. but the venue point that carol made i think is really important here. it's a little legally arcane, but here's the deal. if they bring a case in the wrong venue, and venue means that a case has to be brought where the crimes occurred, and they choose wrong at the end of the day, the whole case can go away. it can't be retried. so i think right now smith is -- well, actually, i this smith has made all his decisions. the fact that there was this meeting yesterday only happens when everything is fine. i think there's a draft indictment and everything. but a very important strategic decision sven you, and i think that they're pursuing something separate in the southern district of florida suggesting that they want to bring the main case in d.c., and that has implications for just what they can charge, how they can frame things, because they need to show that the crimes either took

place all there and that's one thing for when he takes away the documents, another for when he obstructs, or at least that wasn't overall the commission or perpetuation happened there. that will be an important strategic decision that i think has been made and i think for d.c., but people will scrutinize that carefully as soon as we see the indictment. >> harry, you know i never hold back when i disagree. >> bring it! >> i also never miss something that you've never said before. and i don't believe you've ever said on this show before that you you believe draft indictments exist and charging decisions have been made. tell us what you see that they don't. you're very cautious, you're not afraid of going against any narrative. what gives you the confidence to say that for the first time? >> it's claire's point.

the special counsel is invested under the doj regulation with the power of a u.s. attorney. i was the u.s. attorney. you would take these meetings -- i always took any of them -- but they were the final appeal. everything had been -- had been worked over in the office, otherwise it wouldn't be a final appeal. remember, we have a solid three or four weeks when nothing was happening in the grand jury. that's when i think he finished polishing the memo, and when things go up to garland, and i think they would have had to already, that would have likely included a draft indictment because you need to have made these basic decisions. are we going to charge espionage? where will venue be? are we going to charge obstruction versus espionage act? so, i think that follows from the fact that yesterday's meeting was a final, final appeal. smith's job is done, and this is their last chance to talk him out of it.

smith's job includes the drafting of a model -- of a draft indictment. >> i have said on this show that the most dangerous place to be these days is between bill barr and a camera when asked about this case. another example. here he is on cbs. >> based on the facts as the facts come out, i think over time people will see this is not a case of the department of justice, you know, conducting a witch-hunt. in fact, they approached this very delicately and with deference to the president, and this would have gone nowhere had the president just returned the documents. but he jerked them around for a year and a half, and the question is did he deceive them. if there's evidence of that, i think people will start to see this says more about trump than it does the department of justice, and that's that he's so egotistical that he has this penchant for conducting risky, regularless acts to show he can sort of get away with it. it's part of asserting his ego.

>> i mean, he was egotistical in jerking doj around while he was helping him as the head of doj, but we'll let him sit this block out. >> oh, please, no. i mean, what is that? >> there was no one more willing to help trump annihilate the rule of law while he was president than bill barr. i have a lot of skepticism about what this is and where these things come from and why he says these things, but he knows trump's watching. why do you think he's out there making these arguments about how cooked trump's goose is on the criminal side of the mar-a-lago case? >> i think this is the bill barr that washington thought they knew when he got appointed, and then a different bill barr was captured by the position and the idea that he would have the position and he tried to do the bidding of a guy who had -- >> he did the bidding. he appointed bull durham.

>> and one of the things that's most outrageous he did was setting aside a guilty plea. someone stood in front of a court and said i am guilty, i swear i'm guilty. mike flynn said i am guilty. that never happens at doj, ever, that you pull a guilty plea away because you decide, oh, never mind. so, it is ironic. it is bizarre. it is him wanting to be part of the normal crowd again because i'm sure he's been ostracized from what i would call real lawyers. real lo lawyers know what a jok doj was during the trump years and real lawyers know bill barr was part of it. he's trying to say i'm not one of them, i'm one of you. i don't have sympathy for that. he was there at critical time where he could have made a difference, spoken up at the time and prevented january 6th

from happening. instead, he tucked his tail between his legs and went quietly into the night once things got dicey and stood back and watched as our capitol was ransacked and police officers were attacked. >> do you think he's been helpful to jack smith? he would have been around trump and classified documents. john bolton writes in his memoir he called bill barr when he thought u.s. foreign policy as it pertained to turkey had been constructed by donald trump, and of course john bolton was in the room for all of trump's attempts to extort president zelenskyy and to withhold military aid. do you think bill barr tried to do in private what he's so willing and eager to do in public? >> you know, i'm going to shy away from that question for a second and i'm going to say i hope an answer that's useful to you. big barr is to me emblematic of

a fairly significant group of republicans who claire correctly describes as, you know, the old-school republicans and maybe some are rejoining it, maybe some are newly joining it, whatever. but there are many of them that i've spoken to who are actively rooting for trump to go down in this indictment. and for information that they have either learned from their friends who were at the white house at the time or other evidence they've learned in ways that i can't talk about here, they are citing some of that evidence amongst themselves as incredibly damaging to donald trump politically. again, i'm just using and picking my words carefully. but to say that there is a raft of republicans, many of whom served donald trump, who now are in the camp of i know a lot

about -- i'm quoting -- i'm paraphrasing them, forgive me -- i know a lot about what went down here, and when it all comes out in jack smith's speaking indictment, which is what they're hoping for, the public will become aware of donald trump in a new way. everyone says that, right? everybody thinks he put himself first and didn't give a hoot about the country. we've seen the techbt capitol t that, he was willing to reveal war plans against iran in case we needed to go to that defcon stage. he was willing to put them in public view in order to try to harm a political enemy, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. and by the way, he was misusing

those documents not just because they were classified but because of what was in them. at least that's the evidence we have right now. >> i think bill barr's commentary is consistent with what i have heard about what he's been saying since june of 2021. >> carolyn, you, like harry, choose your worlds very carefully. it's clear that there is some reporting that is in progress and we will eagerly await to read not just jack smith's indictment, should they come, but what you're alluding to. but let me press on some of the doors you've opened. sue gordon on this program has chosen his words carefully like you to describe the tight rope that government officials walked when trump was in possession of classified national security or national defense information because he clearly didn't understand not just what it was but whose lives he was holding in his hands when he held it. he also has a long record, and

you've chronicled a lot of it in your two books, of disdain for the intelligence agencies and their leaders. what i haven't heard before is that former insiders, a raft of them who would have visibility into this conduct, basically think his goose is cooked criminally. what else can you say about the evidence that this sort of group of insiders believes might exist and has been accumulated by jack smith? >> i think a big piece of it has to do with the alleged milly memo, the recording by researchers who come to visit the former president as my co-author, bill rucker and i did in 2021, comes to the former president to ask him, you know, we're writing a book, we want to talk to you, fact check some things, we need to ask you some important questions. and that recording of course has

donald trump in his own words saying that he wishes he had declassified this record he happens to have in his hand in which chairman milley recommended that he invade iran. now, additional reporting that we did on that night revealed that milley had never recommended that and actually had briefed the president when he was president numerous times about what some of the options were. you know, plan a, plan b, plan c, plan d, and giving him sort of pros and cons about what was a good idea and a bad idea. and i think that there are a lot of republicans and insiders who feel that this is emblematic of something that trump did often with classified materials. they were of utility to him personally, and to paraphrase some of their words, you know,

damn the country, damn the country's safety. it is about what helps donald trump. and it depends to me as a reporter, how does -- how much evidence does jack smith bring out about those illustrations? how much does he lay bare what trump was willing to do with our most closely guarded crown jewels that keep us safe at night? what was he willing to use them for? and i think that that's something that i've heard many republicans and insiders referring to in recent weeks and months. >> you know, harry, to let you have the last word on this, the body of public-facing evidence of his appetite and lack of sort of the ability to restrain himself in dissemination of classified materials has its sort of first book end in the oval office with russian diplomat sergey lavrov, where

h.r. mccaster, dana powell, others were there and he showed them something classified that certainly involved sources and methods. and i'm not questioning that he had the authority or power to do it as the it is delivering -- sitting president, but at a minimum, it was a national security and diplomatic crisis. the explanation given afterwards was they somehow edited the information they'd given to him because they had a state of mind and knowledge he had a penchant for dissemination. proving a pattern of intent to disseminate knowingly classified documents, what's in the public goes back to the early days of the presidency. what do you think jack smith has developed in private with his prosecutorial and investigative tools? >> quite a bit. even on that one episode, they had to scramble afterward to declassify those documents, putting the lie to the notion it happens magically.

he's given him many assists on the cnn town hall, i took him when he was in d.c., which is a big help for venue itself. but smith has been methodical and where necessary he's put the screws to witnesses. now is a good example. to get them to talk. i think we can expect what carol said the speaking indictment, because he'll be fastidious about not making public comments. this is his big chance. when it comes out, i expect a 100-plus paragraph narrative ha will include some stunning revelations, because look, trump is trump. everything he does, as we're astounded, we also say this is in character with him. and smith will be the ultimate for chronicling that because he's been able to have the leverage to force everyone to talk. >> harry lipman and carol, thank you for starting us off on a much deeper conversation that even i had thought possible on

these developments. we're grateful to you both. claire sticks around. we'll bring you to this conversation -- former cia director john brennan on all of it. and later in the hour, a stunning blast, a bombshell from the world of sports that draws immediate outrage all across the political spectrum and all across politics and sports life. the pga tour and the saudi-backed liv golf have struck a controversial new deal and partnership. we'll ask the question, is golf america's next big culture war? is that where we fight the next big cultural divide? and later in the broadcast, addressing domestic violent extremism, a threat that's only grown more grave since the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and one that still poses the most lethal threat to the homeland today. what officials are doing about it.

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i'm going to the welcome in former cia director and msnbc senior national security analyst. claire, new analysis on the state of jack smith's probes and our conversations and coverage have turned to the evidence that he may or may not have developed around the most serious aspects of this case things that you and i have talked about for almost a year now, and that's potential violations of the espionage act. let me read you something that is new in this story. it's about the complexities of

having a grand jury impaneled in both washington and florida. "the times" says the grand jury in florida is separate from the one that's been sit for months in washington and has abis center of activity for prosecutors as they investigate whether trump mishandled classified documents. among those who have appeared before the washington grand jury in the past few months or who have been subpoenaed by it according to people familiar with the investigation, more than 20 members of trump's secret service security detail. that is the first time we've seen that figure of 20 members of trump's secret service detail being subpoenaed by the -- to answer questions before the washington grand jury. what do you think on the classified documents side and investigators trying to ascertain? >> well, i think the key question is whether or not donald trump showed those documents or gave those documents to anyone else. clearly, we're very concerned

about the unlawful retention and handling of those documents after he left the white house. but as you point out, the concern is whether or not this was actually shared, the substance, the contents of those very sensitive, highly classified documents was shared with others. since the secret service members are responsible for protecting, providing 24/7 protection of former presidents, i presume that jack smith was asking them whether or not they witnessed any of that type of activity that might have involved the sharing and disclosure of these documents, the contents of them, to individuals who were not authorized to receive it. and so therefore, again, it seems as though this is a mounting amount of evidence both in terms of documentary as well as testimonial that really just points a very, very strong finger at donald trump for a series of potential violations up to and including under the espionage act, which is a very, very serious violation.

>> until very recently, there was much more public-facing evidence, including in disclosures from the department of justice, on the obstruction prong of the investigation into what was taken to mar-a-lago and what trump at least publicly was saying it's mine, it's mine, and even in very, very friendly interviews with sean hannity and others was suggesting he could take classified material in and out of boxes as well. carol is careful with her words as are you. she alluded to a real sense of chatter around the practice of using classified documents or material as part of personal retribution efforts. there is one we know based on news accounts against mark milley. the account about him ruffling some papers and disclosing that things were classifies do he

couldn't share them seems to be a flashpoint in understanding both his state of mind about the protocols for classified documents as well as his willingness to disseminate. how do you assess those sort of public dots? >> well, i think by the reporting it's very clear that there were individuals in the white house who i think watched in horror as donald trump was misusing his office for his own personal purposes. the office of white house counsel were trying to restrain donald trump from doing that i think r things that he was not authorized or should have done. therefore, i think what we're seeing and carol is saying is there were a number of individual who is took their roles responsibly. as we well know, donald trump's former chief of staff jon kelly did his utmost to try to keep things on the rails and was watching things, you know, come off the rails repeatedly. so therefore i'm sure that jack

smith is trying to get as much individual testimony from individuals who were able to observe first hand things that donald trump did. that's what you need in order to ensure that a grand jury -- and ultimately a jury is going to have the amount of evidence necessary beyond a reasonable doubt to charge donald trump, if that's where they're going, with these multiple counts. we've talked about the unlawful retention of documents, the obstruction of justice, the unauthorized disclosure under the espionage act. there are many different types of violations that i think jack smith is pusing and that's why it's important to have those interviews with the people who surrounded donald trump in the latter days in office and since then. >> there's some sort of calcified i think kind of lazy political analyst that nothing can ever matter when it comes to the trump story. i don't buy it. i think you don't know what's going to mat to a group of

voters until that thing is in front of the group of voters and they decide. carol seemed to suggest it's possible that part of the reason and what bill barr represents is sort of, i hate to call him the tip of the spear, call him whatever the top tier of the cake is sitting out there on tv anywhere and everywhere. i count at least four different networks that have had him one or more times talking about how much trouble trump is in criminally with the documents investigation. he's talking about trump jerking around doj, talking about how egotistical he was when it koim to his handling of classified materials. how damaging do you think the testimony of the people closest to donald trump now and over the last four years has been, the things we haven't seen yet? >> in a court of law, it can be quite damning. those are the individuals who actually observed first hand

what happened. but also comments from bill barr, who i think, long after he should have, maybe realizes he needs to come clean on donald trump's true character, i think in the court of public opinion, while many of trump's base will never, ever abandon him, i do think a growing amount of evidence and testimony and comments from individuals like bill barr, john bolton and others, are going to the lead some of those individuals who were still with trump on his bandwagon to leave. sharing our war plans reportedly about iran is an egregious, egregious violation of any type of norms and principles and ethics of the oval office incumbent. so, there ever, i'm hoping that more and more of this, which will come out in court, is really going to reveal the depth, the actual depth of the reprehensible behavior that

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your players about the possible ramifications if they signed on with the new league? >> well, i talked to players, i talked at a player meeting and i've talked to a number of players individually for a long period of time. and i think you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that there are significant implications. and as it relates to the families of 9/11, i have two families that are close to me that lost loved ones. so my heart goes out to them. and i would ask, you know, any player that has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour? >> we may have to play that again. wow. that was pga commissioner jay monahan one year ago, 12 months ago, 52 weeks ago, condemn,

invoking two people he knew who lost loved ones in 9/11 and condemning the decision of some players to participate in liv golf. that is the saudi-funded golf tour. it broke with the pga. in that interview one year ago, 12 months ago, 52 weeks ago, that man, jay monahan, highlights allegations that the saudi royal family has connections to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. he said that on tv. today was a different story. in an almost unprecedentedly abrupt about-face, flip-flop, reversal, whatever you want to call it, today pga and liv golf have announced a merger despite the pga previously penalizing players for participating in liv golf. the merger has immediately drawn accusations of what is called sports washing, that the saudi's alleged ties to 9/11 as well as that country's myriad of human

rights abuses and connection to the brutal murder of jamal khashoggi. in a blistering statement, the 9/11 families condemned the merger, saying "pga commissioner jay monahan co-opted the 9/11 community last year in the pga's unequivocal agreement that the saudi liv project was nothing more than sportswashing of saudi arabia's reputation. now they've appeared to have become more saudi shell, taking billions of dollars to cleanse the saudi reputation so that americans and the world will forget how the kingdom spent their billions of dollars before 9/11 to fund terrorism, spread their vitriolic hatred of americans and finance al queda and the murder of our loved ones. make no mistake -- we will never forget." that was the chair. we're back with john brennan, who was the cia saudi arabia station chief in the clinton years. claire is still with us. director brennan, your reaction to today's news and its

geopolitical implications. >> it certainly is a bombshell and a surprising one at that. it's unclear exactly now what the contours of this so-called merger and deal are. but there are a number of aspects of it i think are very worrying. first of all, all those players on the pga tour who followed the pga guidance from last year, you point out, and did not join that liv league. so i think we've just seen a very brief glimpse of the opening act of this play that i think is going to play out on many different levels, including in the pga rooms and golf rooms but also, i think there will be a lot of questions about the role that the public investment fund of the saudi sovereign wealth fund has, because at least the initial reporting indicates they're going to be a controlling interest of at least the for-profit part of this

deal. and so there are big questions i think will be raised my members of congress and also within the executive branch about the role of this public investment fund, which is the investment arm of saudi arabia's sovereign wealth fund, and its involvement in a national pastime here in the united states in terms of pga golf. so i do think we'll see a lot more developments on this front in the coming days, and it's going to be i think quite controversial, and i think we'll see there's going to be a lot of questions raised, legitimate ones, about how this happened and what it will be going forward. >> let me show you, claire, how brandon chamblee, a former player and analyst at the golf channel, who's been a critic of liv golf, reacted to today's news. >> when i first heard about it, i was completely shocked. i can't imagine that too many people outside of maybe the two, three, four, five people in the room that brought this to fruition would have known anything about it.

after the shock sort of ebbed away, i was hugely disappointed. i think this is one of the saddest days in the history of professional golf. i believe the governing bodies, the entities, the professional entity, have sacrificed their principles for profit. >> let me show you what he's talking about. this is what jay monahan, the man who invoked the families of 9/11, the victims of 9/11, this is what he said today about the saudi sovereign wealth fund. "we are pleased to move forward in step with liv and pif's world-class investing experience. i applaud the governor for his vision and collaborative and forward-thinking approach that is not just a solution to the rift in our game but also a commitment to taking it to new heights. this will engender a new era in golf." he didn't just relent to a partnership, he said this guy is the one to change golf and take us, quote, into a new era of

golf for the better. >> it makes me want to throw up. it's just, like, puke. unbelievable. how desperate was the pga? were they really that broke that they were willing to sell their should for saudi money? i mean, we know jared kushner would sell his soul for saudi money. >> he was -- yeah. >> the crown prince signed off on the murder of a journalist in another country. and our intelligence agency, as john brennan knows, it's highly respected, and many of them are veterans. they came to the conclusion he signed off on that murder. and now this is going to be the face of the pga? this guy's going to be chairman of the board? this guy from saudi? i just don't know how jay monahan faces the players that did the right thing as he welcomes back the people who

took money over principle. because now, guess what? the pga -- and by the way, let's go to that phrase in that movie -- show me the money. i want to know how much, how much it took to sell their soul. how much did the pga get for this? what are they getting? and how do the son sorts feel, all the companies out there? this is dirtying them up too. i don't get it. i had no idea the pga was in such trouble they would need to sell out like this. >> i don't ever pretend to be an expert in golf, director brennan. but i would say this -- invoking the families who lost loved ones in line levito. i would say no more sacred things in our country. if there's one last sacred thing in our country, it's them. they are the people who have had the most horrific experience of their lives watching this international media event on

9/11 that shook all of us, brought the country, new yorkers to their knees. they're the ones who lost those in the towers or some loved ones ran into the towers while others were jumping from it, horrors we don't allow ourselves tuesday live very often. and when they speak i think a majority of americans still care. and what mr. monahan seems to have done wrong is pump them out, leverage the pga when it served him, and now he's sold them out to sell them this merger. that is a piece still opaque to me, and maybe it's a golf story not yet visible to me. >> yeah, the contrast between jay's words this year and his actions and words this year are quite stark. and i think as claire pointed out the current day to day

leader of saudi arabia, crown prince salman is the one who ordered the murder of jamal khashoggi. i think liv being bankrolled by the current saudi government i think raises very serious concerns about whether or not this was something purely done for craven financial business interests and principles and ethics were set aside. and all those pga golfers who believed in those principles and ethics and who stayed with the pga over the past year, i'm sure they feel as though they've been sold out. and, again, i think there are going to be many more chapters to this story, and i don't know whether or not it's going to survive in its current formulation in jay monahan's mind, but i do think there's going to be a fair amount of angst and repercursions from the

announcement today. >> we'll stay on it with your help. thank you very much. another break for us. we'll be right back. much. another break for us we'll be right back. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...!

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but two of his former insiders and employee loyalists. we know that tomorrow trump's former vice president mike pence will formally announce his campaign. a bit of a wild card. it's unclear how much of pence's incredibly scripted and limited recent partings of ways of trump will shape his own 2024 campaign identity. but then there's chris christie who's in a different category completely. he filed the official paperwork today to run. he'll make his official announcement in new hampshire in about an hour. christie who didn't run back last time he ran but mostly trained marco rubio has publicly soured on the idea of trump as american president or in any position of leadership. christie in "the new york times" puts it today, quote, has been undeterred talking up an undertaking that he frames as almost as important as winning the presidency and that's extraicating the republican

party from the grip of donald trump. we will be watching. claire, thank you very much for joining us for all these crazy stories. great to have you at the table. on the other side of a break for us there's new news on the government side and outside of government on the scale and scope of the crisis of domestic violent extremism in america. we'll have that news for you straight ahead. don't go anywhere. e. this is not just delivery. ♪ this is knowing even superheroes... can use a sidekick. ♪ walgreens. ♪ this is not just a pharmacy. ♪ this is living the care in healthcare. ♪ walgreens. my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? ♪ it's down with rybelsus®.

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it's hard to have a flashback of something when it hasn't ended and it's still like a nonstop plane scene in your head. maybe i'm obsessed with it, maybe. i don't know, but that's not a flashback moment. every day it's in my mind, i'm seeing what happened that day, so it's hard to say, no, it's not like a flashback, a triggering moment. this is my life now. and how could it end until accountability has been had.

863 days. that's a long time waiting. tired of waiting. >> it is a long time. hi, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. that was u.s. capitol police officer harry dunn, a victim of ininsurrection talking about how he lives every day. he can't have a flashback because it's never receded the attack he experienced that day. it was an attack characterized officially by the sitting director of the fbi as, quote, domestic terrorism. and that threat of domestic terrorism is one that's only grown since the deadly capitol insurrection. a brand new report out by the office of the inspector general of doj takes a look at the department's handling of this growing threat and concludes this. quote, the fbi has stated that more domestic terrorism investigative activity occurred in the u.s. in 2020 than in the previous 25 years and that the

attack on the u.s. capitol on january 6th resulted in a two fold increase in its domestic terrorism case. and now the i.g. writes this, quote, according to the department threats posed by domestic violent extroomestvise not only increased but become more complicated due to emergence of political and socl events. when it comes's handling the inspector general says more work can be done. quote, doj can enhance its mechanisms to continue to evaluate the efficacy and impact of its deve, that's domestic violence extremism efforts. an update from the doj comes as yet another analysis of hate and extremism in our country reveals deeply disturbing new trends. just a few hours ago the southern poverty law center released its newest report where it counted 1,125 active hate and

extremist groups. the southern poverty law school concluded after january 6th those groups, quote, pursuing their agenda in venues where it is easier to gain power. meaning extremism has seeped deeper and perhaps more opaquely into the fabric of american life. quote, in 2022 the hard right movement succeeded in boroughing deeper in peoples lives in visible and material ways even if it did not have widespread electoral success. its fingerprints are everywhere, peoples homes, schools, doctors offices, libraries, bars, restaurants, churches, and other community spaces. the fear and pain experienced by black, brown, and lgbtq communities went far beyond any individual incident, deeply disrupting their ability to participate in an inclusive democracy. the rise of hate and extremism

in america is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. margaret is here, the president and ceo of the southern poverty law center, the group that just issued the report we read from. also joining us former cystitant director for counter intelligence at the fbi and msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here. and with me at the table "the new york times" investigative reporter and investigative analyst. take me through the report. just take me through some of the most startling things one at a time. >> thanks so much, nicole. great to be with you. southern poverty law center has been putting out our annual hate in the year extremism report since 1990. and the year 2022 was really markably notable and distinct in a few ways. first as we also saw with the fbi hate crimes statistics report the number of hate crimes across the country is on a

dramatic increase. and it's worth pointing out that nearly 50% of all hate crimes in this country target black americans. this is an ongoing consistent statistic year after year, but it's worth highlighting because a lot of the other changes we're seeing are additional groups who are now being added to the targeting list. for example, we're seeing far more attacks on the jewish community, on the lgbtq community, and of course on immigrants and increasingly on students. that's one of the other big notable differences this year. we have marked that there are actually 12 anti-student inclusion groups in the country that are pushing to ban certain books, ban curricula, punish teachers who talk about inclusive education, and generally make our school boards miserable in seeking to provide an inclusive education for all.

these groups include moms for liberty, which is the largest group in the country. and we've added those 12 groups to our anti-government groups in our hate list this year. maybe a last highlight i'll lift up is that we saw a real change as we saw the move from a sort of national stage to more local and visible presence as you read from the beginning of the report. increasingly what we're seeing are activists or the far right ideologies going to local school board meetings, to city councils. and as we've seen that, we've seen a real shift in the organizing efforts. for example, our anti-government militia numbers have actually decreased this year, but our numbers are about the same as last year because we've actually seen a rise in other groups that are having more success at the local level like the patriot boys. >> margaret, let me read -- i want to read from the report

about schools and kids. this is in the report. reactionary anti-student inclusion groups such as moms for liberty, moms for america, parents defending america are by their very nature responding to social progress they dislike and have no control over. these groups are vilifying those discriminated against. we covered nikki haley's attacks on the trans community. he blamed a rise in teenage girl suicide rates on trans athletes. our reporting, i think the source's news week showed i think there are maybe 100 trans athletes. and to be clear as the next republican i think they're only upset about trans kids who identify as girls. i've not seen them single out trans kids who identify as boys. so how do you explain the gap

between the reality there are less than a hundred trans kids playing sports and less than 100 school communities contending with whatever the issues are around those teams or those athletes and those family and the rise in the platforming of hatred towards the trans community? >> as we've seen more and more of the hate and extremist groups becoming active at the local level, we have seen state and local elected leaders taking up these positions of being anti- trans or anti-student inclusion in the schools. we're seeing state legislatures work lock step with those far right activists who are attacking school board members for wanting inclusive education. and what it means is that we're seeing an increasing number of politicians embracing this far right ideology far more than in

the past. in the past you would see politicians seek to distance themselves from far right ideology and far right extremism. today they're all aligned, and they're using the same talking points. and so rather than focus on what kids and children need, there's a much greater willingness to use political talking points about schools, about young people that actually have nothing to do with supporting those children to have their best possible education. >> the report is rooted on research and data, but are you able, margaret, to tell us what it's like right now to be one of these targeted and maligned and threatened kids in one of these communities? >> it's terrifying, nicole. there are parents and families and children who are contemplating leaving their homes and moving to other states because they're so afraid they can't access the health care that they need, that their

children are being targeted by political officials in ways that are so detrimental to their well-being. and i think one of the most important things to lift up is our report tries to share the stories of those who are fighting back. there's a wonderful organization that started in florida, support our schools, which is organizing parents, families, and educational communities, to push back to support our teachers, support education in the classroom and not let these loud, hateful voices be the ones dominating the public discourse discourse. >> frank figliuzzi, i want to bring you on this report. it's something you've warned us about. quote, far right extremists have especially targeted events that include drag performers, people who boldly and visibly defy the rights of strict ideas of gender

and gender identity. the proud boys whose chapter has grown considerably since the january 6th insurrection targeted lgbtq events through 2022 through harassment or protest. just talk about this strategy and this brutal targeting and the intersection with politically aligned and targeted threats of violence. >> first, let me give kudos to the sblc for an extremely comprehensive, well written, well-packaged report. i recommend everyone reading this that wants to become more familiar with what's happening all around us now, because the overall take away is that hate is becoming more entrenched. hate has gone local, and the more local it goes, the more mainstream it becomes. now one of the strategies we see is what you mention, which is an increased targeting of the gay community. it's part of the so-called culture war that they want us to believe is happening, that our

religious freedoms are being targeted, our children are being target. and it's about as anti-freedom as you can be in reality, but that's not what they want. they want us to believe everything we stand for is somehow at risk including our children's safety. so the convenient target here has become in addition to the jewish community has become the gay community. and here we are of course in pride month where security really has to be paramount for the various events going on. i harken back to decades ago when the fbi and doj really targeted and successfully went after criminally the kkk. and what happened there is they took off their hoods and their sheets and they put on suits and ties and they went local. and they ran for office. so this isn't the first time we've seen this going local mainstreaming of hatred. we've seen it before, and we see it now with people who truly are

driven by hate and deception running for school board and elective office, and that's where the problem is. so there's good news, bad news in this report. there's a drop in militia groups and activity. clearly mentioned in the report the chilling effect the 1,000 arrests now have had from january 6th on these militia groups. but the bad news is just as soon as you get your hands around them from a law enforcement perspective, identify people and groups, they go local. they hide behind suits and ties and try to legitimize themselves, and that makes it very, very hard to get a handle on what's happening. >> frank, where is the intersection? and is it discernible? does law enforcement have the tools to know exactly where the fault line is between the projected sort of laundered free political speech targeting the trans community coming from behind podiums, televised

debates and town halls and the rhetoric and conduct and organizing that threatens people especially families of trans kids and lgbtq kids. >> yeah, i think -- i've long said, nicolle, that two things are not mutually exclusive. you can protect our civil liberties at the same time you protect our nation from violence. they're not mutually exclusive, but the far-right extremists want us to believe that the big, bad government is trying to police our thoughts, our ideologies. and of course that's not true. they're trying to prevent violence. and as you said the problem, the challenges, the tools still aren't in the tool kit. many people think that something magic happened in law enforcement after january 6th, new tools, new laws. the answer is no, nothing has changed in the law enforcement tool kit. we still -- i know you've heard me say this to a point where you may be tired of hearing me say it, we still don't have a law in the federal books against domestic terrorism, and that

deprives law enforcement of the ability to get out ahead of violence and the continued threat continues to be the lone offender who is increasingly difficult to ferret out and find. >> so with that in mind, and i never get tired of you making that point, frank figliuzzi, what do you make of the inspector general's report on doj's approach? and understand this is an audit that inspector general harowitz did. take us through what it is and its substance. >> so two different questions. i like the fact that we have in a sense an audit by the i.g. here who's looking deep into how law enforcement particularly fbi goes after and addresses domestic terrorism. i don't see here the solutions because what we keep seeing out

of doj is, hey, we created a new unit. was it a year ago, two years ago? we created a domestic terrorism unit at doj. well, we had a domestic terrorism unit. do you have any new ways to approach this? fbi said we've got increased resources on this. again, without the tools. and the so-called -- so-called whistle blowers out of the fbi who have been suspended and fired and jim jordan keeps parading around, you know what they're saying. they're saying, well, the fbi is fudging their domestic terrorism numbers because it's all about january 6th. and yeah, there's 1,000 cases, but other than that there's no real problem. well, there's a 1,000 people and more, by the way, coming who are under investigation and arrested for domestic terrorism, and they've been scattered throughout the united states. so, yes, indeed we have an entrenched problem developing here, and i don't see study

after study without solutions and major change, particularly legislative change, really making a difference. moving forward we still have a major problem on our hands in terms of addressing the threat inside the united states. >> i don't know if your kids have ham centers. we have a hamster that runs on a wheel. so this is a very meaningful way to describe this. but with the advent -- i don't even call it advent. with the resistance of a republican party whose rhetoric is in many instances in many news cycles indiscernible by the rhetoric that animates domestic violence extreme groups adding to the rolling back of any speech on social media it feels as we're as combustible as we've ever been. >> absolutely. it's striking to me in the midst of the january 6th prosecutions,

the largest prosecutions in doj history, we're seeing an expansion of domestic violence of the proud boys and not a contraction of it. i do think we're in a politics right now where the stakes feel elevated and where especially on the right there is a rhetoric that says that the whole foundation of the country, its culture, its constitution, its politics are at stake, is about to be destroyed. it's escalating all the time, and there are intellectuals on the right who can make that case. >> launder it. who are the intellectual forces? >> it's the people who surrounded the trump world, people -- you know, the clairemont institute have made the case all is lost if we don't win and we have to win the culture war. that's a big shift. it's not really the fight over tax cuts anymore. tax cuts are still there. it's the fight over culture.

the culture war is now the unifying principle from the right from ron desantis to donald trump. >> nobody can define wokism and i think they would put abortion in that. you've got 93% of all americans who oppose their most radical bans against exceptions, though limited exceptions for the life of the mother. the substance that agenda is deeply unpopular even among republicans. >> that's by we see wokism becoming the catch all term for everything. >> it means nothing. >> but that's exactly why it's useful as a rhetoric and kind of why we see people trying to define it in ten different way. it's whatever i don't like right now is wokism. >> it's crazy. thank you all so much for having this conversation. we will call in all of your expertise as the campaign season heats up. margaret, thank you very much. nick, thank you very much. frank is sticking around. when we come back,

republicans are on the verge of holding fbi director chris wray in contempt of congress. it is all over a document that the bureau has provided and shown to congress. it contains an unsubstantiated and later dismissed allegation that involves -- you guessed it -- president joe biden. it all makes sense when you hear one republican lawmaker say the quiet part out loud and admit the goal is not to ascertain the truth about the bidens. and later the destruction of a massive dam in ukraine is forcing thousands of ukrainians to evacuate just as the counter offensive to take back territory seized by russia gets under way. our experts and friends will explain the significance of the attack and what it means for the war going forward. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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today the republican party is going there, proceeding with contempt charges for donald trump's hand picked director of the fbi, christopher wray. his crime in their view not complying with a subpoena. but this is after republican oversight chairman jim comer was briefed last night by bureau officials on the exact document that had been subpoenaed by comer. now, the document that we're talking about supposedly describes an alleged bribery scheme involving president joe biden. last night after viewing the document, chairman comer told reporters that the document was part of a, quote, ongoing investigation. but democratic congressman jamie raskin, the ranking member of the oversight committee, was also able to view the document

last night, and here's how he described it. >> attorney general barr named scott grady who was the u.s. attorney for western pennsylvania, to head up a group of prosecutors and fbi agents who would look into all of the allegations related to ukraine. what i know is that the fbi department of justice team under william barr and scott brady in the western district of pennsylvania terminated the investigation. they said there were no grounds for further investigative steps. >> comer said it was part of an ongoing investigation, that that's what he learned. >> okay. then i must have missed that because i've not heard this is part of any ongoing investigation. >> because it's not. this is part of a trough -- and i'm at loss for a better word -- for the garbage that rudy giuliani was stirring up about ukraine by bill barr to dole

with what he knew was dpashage by rudy giuliani. to sum up what has been reported and what we know, oversight chairman comer subpoenaed christopher wray for a document that contains unsubstantiated allegations against president joe biden that came through this channel headed by bill barr to receive garbage by rudy giuliani. he saw the document, he was handed the documents. afterwards he appears to say that there's an ongoing investigation. bill barr didn't think so and is still moving to hold christopher wray in contempt. why? well, republican senator chuck grassly very generously answered it for us last week. >> we're doing the constitutional job of oversight. i have read that document. if he would read it, and it's on unclassified document. he admits it exists, and we aren't interested in whether or not the accusations against vice president biden are accurate or

not. >> we aren't interested in if the accusations i think he meant then vice president biden are active or not. luke, this is -- i remember this, and jeff bermen writes about it in his tell-all about running fdny that what barr sets up is basically -- i can't think of a better word -- but the trough for the slough that rudy is stirring up and ginning up about the bidens, and this channel in part is to divert tips -- i think that's using the word generously, but tips from rudy to bypass sdny and send them through the office that congressman raskin talks about. am i missing part of this? and chuck grassly says, quote, we don't care if they're true or not. >> right. these were allegations that were investigated by the justice department some years ago in

2020, in fact. and they may even predate 2020. but scot brady, the u.s. attorney of pittsburgh, is tasked by bill barr at looking all it materials who is rudy giuliani, president trump's personal lawyer at the time is trying to accumulate this dossier of negative information against joe biden. and people familiar with this review of the evidence say a lot of it was junk, a lot of it was pretty worthless. he did end up forwarding some materials to other u.s. attorneys offices. there may have been some things useful for further investigation, but most of it -- most was discounted and was not elevated to a formal investigation. there were a lot of facts that we really need to launch an investigation into this stuff. it was sort of a way to filter the investigation before it went out to prosecutors who were

doing, you know, real serious work. >> and the ethics of having rudy giuliani import information into doj under bill barr's tutelage while at the same time john durham is out trying to manufacture an investigation against the investigators with two trials that went nowhere, i mean what is the bigger picture over on earth 1 where reality still rings about the extremely audacious and brazen attempts to politicize the fbi by comer and his committee, luke? >> yeah, i mean the fbi says what the house republicans are doing right now is completely unwarranted and is a broadside attack on the institution. they feel like they've bent over backwards to provide unsubstantiated, unverified claims to congress, to house republicans while still protecting the sanctity of investigations, of protecting clandestine witnesses and

informants. and, you know, they went to some length. they sent a team over for more than an hour. they briefed james comer yesterday, they let him see the document, answer questions at length. and then to come out of a meeting immediately and say we're going to hold you in contempt anyway, you know, did not go over well at fbi headquarters. i do think it's worth pointing out that, you know, with congress politics are always at play, and i don't think the viewers or readings lead with the impression that christopher wray is in danger of going to jail or something. if the house does vote to hold him in contempt, you know, i can't see any world in which the justice department would follow through on that contempt charge and try to pursue a criminal case. >> it all has a real world implication, though, frank gig losy. after donald trump start railing against the fbi and they

approved the search of his mar-a-lago property, the fbi field office was targeted. i mean it doesn't happen -- i take luke's point it's not likely to result in a criminal process for christopher wray, but there are real world implications to this campaign to discredit the fbi and manufacture a reality that just doesn't exist in a document that was sent to doj when it was run by the trumpiest people the world has ever known, bill barr and plenty of other people who were littered all over the justice department. how is the fbi dealing with this maybe in ways we can't see? >> so my understanding is that an all-employee memo went out from fbi headquarters across all the field offices saying, look, here's the transparency. this sourced document contains the names of individuals that you know, all fbi employees know, we protect. and the entire foundation of the fbi's informant program, the ability to go out and develop

cooperating witnesses and important cases is based on the notion that their identity will be protected at all costs. and so what's been redacted for those who are, well, something in there is redacted -- what's redacted is to protect the future of the fbi's informant program. because if you can look across a desk at someone who's thinking about cooperating with you and say we might have to turn your name over to congress and it might be on the front page of "the washington post," they're not going to cooperate. so this is an attempted death by a thousand cuts by the far-right who simply wants to erode the institution. and why this institution? as you've alluded to, it's the fbi that's investigating their guy. and as i'm telling people, if their guy gets indicted, it's an fbi agent who's going to tell the former president of the united states i have a warrant for your arrest. it's an fbi agent who's going to read mr. trump his miranda rights. so it's understandable that they

need to attack the institution of the fbi because when the indictments come they want to be able to say we held their director in contempt, they're not to be believed. that's what this is about. >> but, frank, the fbi is also the institution that connects the dots after a terrorist attack that is responsible for protecting the homeland, president-electing americans from all sorts of crimes, gun trade, drug trade. i mean why -- should christopher wray do more? should he go on tv and protect the reputation and the integrity of the rank and file of the fbi by saying these guys don't want the truth, they can't handle the truth, here's the truth, and explain what you just explained? >> look, he's between a rock and a hard place because we've already got a situation where the fbi has sadly become highly politicized by the far-right, and it's the worst thing that could happen to an objective law enforcement agency. so if he comes out, he's damned if he does, damned if he

doesn't. if he comes out publicly and attacks the far right, he's automatically becoming a political animal, and that's not the way to go here. what i do sense is happening, nicolle, is an increased strategy of pushing back. pushing back saying, look, this is extraordinary accommodation. we don't hand out source documents to congress every day. do you want to prop for theater? want a piece of paper to wave around on national television and claim what, that we didn't look at whether biden took a $5 million bribe because rudy giuliani said so? we did. the republican attorney general gave it to a republican u.s. who said it's not credible, and barr accepted the finding. so this is theater. i think most americans understand that. and try to push back against a circus is really not helpful. you become part of that circus. >> that ship seems to have already sailed, but circus is a good word for it. luke, our correspondent live

with the circus on all these goings on, thank you very much my friend. when we return, the destruction of a massive and vitally important dam in southern ukraine forces thousands of residents to flee and threatening ukraine's much anticipated counter offensive to take back territory occupied by russia. our experts tell us what this means for the war and the people of ukraine after a short break. don't go anywhere. after a shork don't go anywhere. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people

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a potential bombshell in jack smith's twin investigations into donald trump. "the new york times" reported seven minutes ago that mark meadows. he was donald trump's chief of staff at the end of the presidency when the documents were taken at the end of january 6th. those events also under investigation by jack smith. "the times" just dropped a story under this headline. "mark meadows has testified to grand jury and special counsel investigation of trump." we will read from it. mark meadows, the final white house chief of staff under president donald trump and a potentially key figure in inquires related to trump has testified before a federal grand jury hearing evidence in the investigations being led by the special counsel's office. that is according to two people briefed on the matter. meadows is a figure in both of the two distinct lines of inquiry being pursued by the special counsel appointed to oversee the justice department's scrutiny of trump. this, of course, jack smith "the times" goes onto report this,

one inquiry is focused on trump's efforts of claim to power after losing the 2020 election culminating on an attack, the others into the investigation of trump's handling of hundreds of classified documents after he left office and whether he obstructed efforts to retrieve them. "the times" reports this. it's not clear precisely when meadows testified or if investigators questioned him about one or both of the cases. this has been an open question whether or not meadows who was represented by a doj official and conservative attorney had testified in any of the investigations into trump, those being run by jack smith or the georgia probe being run by fani willis. no indication in this story that he's helped the georgia investigator, but "the times" breaking the news that he has

testified in jack smith's investigations into donald trump. joining us by phone "the new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt whose byline is on this new piece of reporting. mike, what can you tell us? >> look, one of the biggest questions is -- you know, there's a lot of questions. but one of the bigger questions about the people in trump's orbit has been what has meadows been up to? his profile has sort of sunk in trump's world. he hasn't been seen around as much. he hasn't been heard as much, and we have been trying to figure out why that is and how he fits into these larger investigations. obviously meadows as we saw during the congressional investigation into the january 6th attacks was a key person, who was someone in the room for a lot of the key moments that happened around january 6th and the lead-up to that and the efforts to overturn the election as we saw that came out just a few days ago where it was related to that audio recording

of the researchers from his book. he's someone that has at least some ties to the president in regards to the documents investigation. probably the most interesting thing about the reporting here was, you know, the quote in the story from meadows' lawyer who said without commenting on whether or not meadows testified before the grand jury or heard any proceedings, mr. meadows has maintained a commitment to tell the truth where he has a legal obligation to do so. look, in many ways that's sort of a perfunctory response and it doesn't confirm anything. but in trump's world where loyalty is such an important thing and anyone who turns on trump is seen as disloyal or anyone following legal procedures is seen as disloyal, this is clearly a sign that, you know, mark meadows is in the hands of an attorney that was going to make sure that he followed the law.

and george williger is someone who's fairly extremely experienced in this area. and, you know, knows what they're doing. >> that was an interesting quote. i wasn't sure reading if that was a quote about george williger or mark meadows. was that in your view, and are you pointing to it because it indicates that he's helpful or he's been helpful to special counsel jack smith? >> i think it's just simply that he has a lawyer to make sure that he follows the law and that he's responsive to legal proceedings if there are legal proceedings in which he is legally asked to answer questions. and while that may not seem like that big a deal in trump's world where we've seen a range of different folks around trump who

didn't always answer questions or didn't always answer them truthfully, you know, someone like george williger is certainly signaling that his client follows the law. >> i think it's a huge deal and a potential major differentiator. i want to read to our viewers this story just dropped. i read some of it. i want to share a bit more of it because you and your colleagues report on what -- sort of remind us what meadows saw. you report that meadows was a polarizing figure at the white house among some of trump's aides who saw him as a loose gatekeeper at best during the time year in which the president moved aggressively to mold the government in his image. this was brought to life i think most illustratively by cassidy hutchinson and probably less by pat cipollone who described interactions with trump on

january 6th this way, by saying he wouldn't condemn the rioters because he, quote, agreed with them. they were chanting, hang mike pence." if he were to field questions after mike pence on the january 6th side of the jack smith probes what is sort of the assessment of how instrumental he could be? >> i mean, look, i -- he's incredibly important because you have to remember not only was he in the room for all these things, but we've never heard from meadows under oath related to january 6th. he was one of the witnesses who had not cooperated with the january 6th investigation. the justice department had looked into and ultimately decided not to charge him and scavino with, you know, contempt of congress for their lack of cooperation with the january 6th investigation. so meadows is someone who knows what meadows knows.

certainly we had a fair amount of insight into it from cassidy hutchinson, and we learned about it from other witnesses and what meadows' role was. but at the end of the day meadows was around for a lot of things and could answer a lot of questions. i'm sure someone like tim would have loved to have questioned mark meadows and know what he knew about what was going on. and the committee was never able to get there, but jack smith was. and it's just yet another reminder of the difference between the congressional investigation and the special counsel's investigation. and the difference between this special counsel's investigation and the special counsel's investigation that went on under trump under mueller because this one has really gone after the people around the president and been able to pierce different privilege issues and force the cooperation and the testimony certainly in a way that looks at

the january 6th committee an extraordinary amount of headway in this area. >> and you report this, mike. mr. meadows was around for pivotal moments leading up to and after the 2020 election as mr. trump plotted to stay in office and nuwort joe biden from being able to succeed him. some were described in the hundreds of text messages meadows turned over to the house select committee that investigated the january 6th attack on the capitol before he decided to stop cooperating. those texts served as a road map for the investigators. adam kinzinger, now a retired house republican on this show described mark meadows as their star witness. what he saw and i think to your point tim hathy has said if there were anyone other than trump he could talk to was mark meadows. what he's shared was of vital importance. do you have any sense that there was one investigation that took priority over the other based on the other reporting in "the times" about who's been in most recently? because the story today also has

a great deal of reporting on his role in the final days including the packing of trump's personal items. >> no, i -- as we say in the story, you know, it was unclear which investigation he was, you know, testifying to or both. obviously he's important to both of them, but you raise an important point, which until today when we were working on this reporting, i had almost forgotten, which was the importance of the meadows text messaging. the meadows text messages really served as a -- the word game changer may be too much, but an important moment to the committee where it was able to gain a larger understanding of what was going on around trump in the lead-up to and during january 6th. and that served as an important blueprint for i think a lot of the questioning that goes on in

the months that followed and the committee's ability to -- to get the information that they did. because it's one thing to have all the witnesses before them the way that they did, but you really need to be answering the right questions. and you really need to be pushing on the right issues. and there's a lot of reasons that they were ultimately able to get to the answers that they got to. cassidy hutchinson, you know, being part of that. but one of them was the -- the blueprint of sorts that was given to them by the meadows text. >> and it's such a good reminder that so many of the leads pursued that resulted in these dramatic public testimony that sort of captured everyone's imagination were first were fir to, so even if a case where they didn't have a full picture, mike, it was some of the things don junior was texting about the plans in the earliest days after trump's defeat for contesting the election and other threats that were pulled by that

committee, doggedly over many, many months. i want to read for our viewers -- again, this broke while we were on the air. i and i want to share your report about meadows' potential importance in the documents probe, something we have been talking about a great deal over the last two hours. you and your colleagues write -- meadows was one of trump's representatives to the archives, and he had some role in trying to discuss the matter with trump, according to two people briefed on the matter. and then you guys get into what has been reported about meadows' autobiographers. i want to read that for our viewers. meadows is connected tan jenchly to a potentially vital piece of evidence investigators uncovered in recent months an interview

trump gave to two individuals in writing a memoir of his white house years. meadows didn't attend that meeting that took place in 2021 at trump's bedminster club. trump referred to a document he had in front of him that he should have declassified but couldn't because he was no longer in office. certainly no issues meadows could speak to on the documents probe. mike, can you speak to his role as we've noted all along, the chief of staff, first chunk of reporting as well as the role tangentially. as well as -- in terms of dissemination? >> look, he was in charge in those final days, and that's as the boxes are being packed up. because of that, he was someone that had a knowledge of how they were complying or not complying

with the national archives. in the time that followed he had a prominent role in trump's inner circle in that time, during which there was a back and forth in the archives about what they needed back and what was being produced and what was not being produced. he was someone that was supposed to be a custodian of sorts for the president's material. and it is -- you have to remember the documents story goes all the way back to that time with the national archives, and the back and forth of the archives, and 15 boxes that go to the archives. and it was meadows, you know, who just was much more prominent in trump's inner circle than he's been in recent months as this investigation has sort of come to an end. >> mike, there's one last piece of reporting in this story i want to ask you about while we have you. you guys note this -- for months, people in trump's orbit have been puzzled by and weary about the low profile kept by

meadows in the investigation. one witness after another going into the grand jury were to be interviewed by federal investigators, meadows has kept largely out of sight, and some of trump's advisers believe he could be a significant witness in the inquiries. i presume that's by design and one of the benefits of having a skilled attorney, but do you have any sense? it's not clear from the reporting about when meadows went in. do we know if it was before or after pence, or do we know if he went in in the trump circle? we have lost mike schmidt. i think we have gotten through this entire piece of breaking news. this was a story that dropped at 5:32 in "the new york times" with certainly a political bombshell, most likely a legal one as well. donald trump's final chief of staff, who was overseeing the process of packing trump for mar-a-lago after his foiled coup, but who was also extremely

active, particularly in the georgia efforts to contest and overthrow donald trump's defeat there. "new york times" breaking the news 25 minutes ago that mark meadows has already testified before the grand jury in jack smith's investigations into donald trump. our thanks to mike schmidt, whose byline is on this story. we're going sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ we got the house! so researchers can help life underwater flourish. you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. get help reaching your goals with j.p. morgan wealth plan, a new tool in the chase mobile® app.

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an explosion at a major dam and hydroelectric power plant in southern ukraine figures to have major implications for not only

that but the surrounding areas. thousands of people have been evacuated from rising floodwaters after it was damaged tuesday. it holds back a body of water the size of the great salt lake in utah. access to water -- as well as -- zaporizhzhia, the site that has proven to be a crucial flash point since the going of the war. the atomic wash dog says the plant is not currently threatened by these floods. both ukraine and russia have blamed one another for the disaster with ukraine accusing russia of blowing it up. moscow is denying that attack. they're saying it was an act after sabotage by ukrainian forces. nbc news can report while the motive is being assessed the u.s. has intelligence they're working on declassifying that leans toward russia being behind the attack according to two u.s.

officials. kyiv has been planning their long anticipated counteroffensive in the east with russia claiming that ukraine has already launched a significant attack in an attempt to reclaim occupied land. we had hoped to talk about this important story with ambassador michael mcfall and general barry mccaffery. we'll call on them tomorrow. the as casualty of breaking news. our thanks to you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> an informational casualty to breaking news. i might have to use that. >>s the been about one breaking news story every 65 minutes so good luck. >> i know, we have been watching you. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. as mentioned we're now tracking two breaking stories. first, this breaking news special counsel jack smith has now heard from one of the most

crucial witness