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they vote on it. that vote is tentatively scheduled for wednesday. and breaking, just now, two gop sources tell nbc news that conservatives are balking at the agreement. conservative members of congress in both the house and senate, along with conservative outside groups are plotting ways to gum a passage of the bill or add amendments to make it more appealing to hard-liners. a source familiar with the talks said. i want to bring in jen psaki, former white house press secretary, and host of inside with jen psaki, here on msnbc. she joins us by phone now. jim, what an evening.

>> hi michael. >> hey, how are you. welcome, thank you so much. >> i'm great. these deals are always saturday night. >> i know right? this is what we do. the white house has to be, i think at this moment, not pleased, but very comfortable. >> relieved. >> yeah, relieved with what they are. can you give us a sense of what you're hearing from your white house sources, and help frame for our audience how they should be looking at this deal before we see the final ends of it? >> sure. so my former colleagues, -- they definitely feel relief. they felt that they were heading towards this point, for most of the day today. you never know until a deal is struck that you are going to actually get their. the challenge here, now, for the white house and also for speaker mccarthy is getting it over the finish line. while they are relieved, there

is work ahead. they need to get this through this house. you just noted, michael, there are some hard-line republicans who are not going to accept this deal, it sounds like, at this point. because it doesn't have enough spending cuts or it is not what they thought it could be or should be. there will certainly be some democrats and members of the progressive caucus who will not support this or potentially won't supported because of the work requirements. the specifics on that are still being reported on. if you are in the white house right now, you are wiping your brow, you are relieved. but you know there is still a lot of work ahead and a very short timeline to get it done. but the message, i think, they're going to be conveying to democrats is, this is not all the things we want. of course it's not. you don't want to give ten billion dollars back to go after tax -- we don't want any work requirements for -- which is the temporary assistance for needy families fund. these aren't things that the

white house would ever propose or advocate for. so don't let the perfect be the enemy of a default, right? we cannot default because the markets will plummet. retirement savings will go down. we need to get this done to avoid that. so that, i think, is going to be the message from them internally and in this call as you mentioned with democrats tomorrow, as they're trying to get this over the finish line. >> so jen, you do communications and you do it dam well. one of the things for me that has been a little bit of a sticking point is the lack of communication by the administration on this bill. the country is largely seeing republicans in front of the cameras and the microphones, framing this conversation. >> yeah. >> do you think the white house is going to have to play a little catch up? i get the conversation with the members tomorrow. ersation with thbut then comes l right, we'll take off monday because nobody is paying attention on monday. it's memorial day, we're celebrating. but on tuesday, what is the messaging have to be have to be

for this white house in front of the american people? >> i don't know michael, that it is tuesday. i think it's important for people to know and understand, you are sitting in the white house right now. this is not a moment for a messaging strategy. the messaging strategy, quote, unquote, out the last two weeks is not any communications or press or messaging expert whatever plan out. they have said very little. this is a negotiation strategy and a get it done strategy. in moments like this when you're in meetings and the chief of staff is in the white house, if you're running communications, i've done that, if you're running the press office, i've also done that. you are actually not necessarily the one in charge. you are trying to get this across the finish line. what they are planning on is get this across the finish line. let's avoid default. let's prevent peoples retirement savings from plummeting. then we can message on it after that. you may say to me, michael, that's too late. it's really not.

because a default would be a terrible thing for the white house and the president. also terrible for the country. but terrible for him as well. that's the best that they are making at this point. >> so jen, if you can hang with me for a second. president biden just tweeted a moment ago. i'm going to read the tweet. i want to get your reaction on the other side. quote, earlier this evening, speaker mccarthy and i reached a budget agreement in principle. it is an important step forward that reduces spending. while protecting critical programs for working people and growing the economy for everyone. and, the agreement protects mine and congressional democrats key priorities and legislative accomplishments. the agreement represents a compromise, which means not everyone gets what they want. that is the responsibility of governing. this agreement is good news for the american people. because it prevents what could have been, a catastrophic default. and would've led to an economic recession, retirement accounts devastated, and millions of lost jobs. over the next day, our

negotiating teams will finalize legislative text. and the agreement will go to the united states house and senate. i strongly urge both chambers to pass the agreement right away. jen, your reaction? it sounds like the president was pretty much what you were just saying. >> i did work for him for a while. i would say, michael, that yes. they have been really projecting this. this is of course not all the things that they want. this shouldn't be where congress is or where the country is. dozens and dozens of times over the course of time that you've been in politics, and i've been in politics, congress, democrats and republicans under democratic and republican presidents have raised the debt limit. including three times under president trump? right former president trump, which kevin mccarthy voted for all three of those times. this should not be a negotiating sticking point, raising the debt limit. but at the same time, or in the reality we are in, because it's such a narrow margin in congress and the republicans

control the house, and kevin mccarthy is controlled in part by marjorie taylor greene and the right wing of the party. we are where we are. as a result, there are things that are not ideal that president biden, and of course, many, if not all democrats wouldn't support. including any element of work requirements. giving up money that would go after tax chief's, et cetera. in this moment, avoiding default is so pivotal for the country. you heard that in the tweet he just, obviously put out. i don't like everything here, right? i don't like everything here. but it is far worse if we can't avoid default. that is the message, i think, that they're going to keep projecting at this point. >> interesting, one more point for you. the interesting thing is as we've already reported as well, the conservatives are agitated by this deal. >> yeah. >> apparently. >> agitated is a gentle word. >> yeah, it saturday night, right? i've had a cup of coffee.

so agitated. the reality of it is, that could be a problem if they find a lane to scuttle this process towards getting this deal done. what should the white house be concerned about at this stage? or is this mostly a kevin mccarthy problem? >> it's an everyone problem, really. everyone wants to avoid default. i wouldn't, i don't know that everybody is on the same team. whatever that even means. but at this point, they have a deal in principle. they've agreed they want to move forward with it. now, what they need to do is cobbled together enough votes to do that. they are not going to get every democrat. they're not going to get every republican. do they have enough of the majority to get this deal passed? that is really the question. a lot of the people who are working on this are old enough to remember back in 2008. d enoughwhen tarp failed the pan congress. that was during the height of the financial crisis. it's not like something like

that can't happen. they are very aware of that. it's now about cobbling together these votes. yes, there's all sorts of not just theatrical, but different game playing that can happen over the course of the next several days. there's also another question, which we will probably be too early in the process to discuss, but maybe not. is what does this mean for kevin mccarthy? there are members of the democratic party who will be very upset that there are any element of work requirements in here. there is no question about that. the president will hear about that, probably in privately. kevin mccarthy has a different problem. there are some people who can throw him out of his speakership, potentially. does that happen in the midst of the process? does that happen after the process? that is a different challenge for him. >> all right, msnbc's jen psaki. thank you so much jen for coming on on saturday night. i appreciate it. let's bring in the all-star panel folks. who is going to help us in this hour. kurt bardella, adviser for the dnc and the dccc.

my man, rick wilson, cofounder of the lincoln project. david rohde, nbc news senior executive editor for national security. and molly jong-fast. host of the fast politics podcast and vanity fair special correspondent. welcome to all of you. we're going to do a quick round robin. i want to give each of you ate an assessment of the state of this deal right now. this seemingly has been struck. rick, i'll start with you. [inaudible] rick, i think you're muted buddy. >> great night for joe biden. great night for the white house. even though their messaging has been tentative in the last couple of weeks, i think that now we are going to probably start the kevin mccarthy -- history got a very angry part of his caucus tonight who are probably burning up his phone. no matter how good it is for the country not to default. it's not going to please the chaos caucus in the gop.

>> kurt, what are your thoughts? >> this is a great deal for the president. let's remember something here. republicans began this negotiating process in 2022 cuts in all spending. in this deal, spending is going to remain flat for the next two years. this is a win for democrats, it's a win for the president. but the programs we were concerned about, those that were being cut, they're being protected. this is so far ahead of where we were back in 2011, which pretty much instituted ten years of budget caps. we are not going to have that problem this time. we're not gonna even have to deal with the debt ceiling again until after the next presidential election. this landed far better for president biden than anybody was forecasting. >> molly, how about you? how do you see it? >> i mean, i have anxiety. i don't want to celebrate until it's past. [laughter] that destruction of this republican party that really want to blow it all up. you are seeing that already. i have some worry that that

could still happen. i don't think this is, look, this is a compromise. there are going to be people who are unhappy on both sides. as jen was talking about earlier. but i do think that largely taking this off the table for the next two years is a win for all of us. you know, i do think it's a win for biden. but i think people will be unhappy to. >> how about you david? >> i think the average american will be very happy. this could've been a catastrophic recession that appears to have been avoided. we will see what happens with some of the republicans and yes, president biden faces reelection. this extends the debt ceiling through after the 2024 election. the biggest threat to him was an economic recession. the economy still, it's not clear what direction it's going in. inflation remains a problem. it's the economies -- this while, i think will please most average americans.

outside the bell they don't get this fighting and back and forth, and three tricks. they just want to have a functioning government. >> all right, so now we've set the table. when we come back, with kurt and rick and david and molly, we are going to do a deeper dive. stick with me folks, we'll be right back. right back e way i want them. (woman) i want a network that won't let me down. even up here! (woman #2) with an unlimited plan that's truly right for me. (woman #3) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man #2) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon, the first and only plan where you pick your perks... ...and save on every one. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. on the network you want. because it's your verizon. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone

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capitol hill correspondent,

julie tsirkin. what is the latest julie what can you tell us what's happening up there? >> look republicans i'm told are still on that all member call that began at around 9:40. i'm told mccarthy is taking a lot of questions from members. most of them, i'm told, are receiving this warmly. there are some concerns, of course, as we talked about last hour. from those house freedom caucus members. those most fiscally conservative, and just in general conservative members of mccarthy's conference that he has to appease. look, the bottom line here is, it sounds like the white house really eked out a win here on several key items. for example, they have a two-year spending caps deal in conjunction with the debt ceiling lift. which essentially is what they wanted. it goes through the 2024 election. it means spending levels will stay at this year they will not go lower than that. which is something that mccarthy and republicans wanted as they passed in their house. -- done much of which, president biden is running on. much of which democrats are able to pass and inflation reduction act. it also includes things like

certain changes to work requirements. that concerns food stamps. but they are not changes that involve medicaid, we are told, from one democratic source. these work requirement changes, mccarthy was touting on the call, saying that this was a win for republicans because he shared that democrats started out with this being a red line. but in all reality, in terms of what we are getting so far, there are some changes to food stamps. this would apply to americans who are under the age of 54 years old. but those changes, according to this agreement, would face out after 2030. so a lot is still being decided. permitting reform is one issue. the democrats and republicans both wanted as part of this bill. i'm told texas, has not yet been written for this. of course that's a very complicated thing. it's to expedite approval for permitting projects. four new pipelines and so forth, for republicans, for democrats of course. they want that to play into more of the clean energy space. it's not clear how that's going to be finalized. bottom line here, michael, we

do have an agreement in principle. mccarthy, selling this to his members. that's really the hard work here. we are told that he wants to hold a vote as soon as wednesday. that means members will have to be back in this building by tuesday. they have these three days to review the text of this bill. if it drops tomorrow, as mccarthy has suggested, that will put a vote right on track for wednesday. maybe even thursday. but this is all voting well for that june 5th deadline that janet yellen set. of course on the flip side, you have democrats who are also going to have to accept this agreement by all accounts. it looks according to at least what we have so far, that a white house did hold their line on many of these items. i'm told there will be an all members call on the democratic side tomorrow. at 5:00. that was a notice sent by the white house. so just all of these details, again, really just coming in. but that call, i'm told by republicans and republican leadership, ongoing. >> all right, nbc's julie tsirkin, thank you very much for your reporting tonight. really appreciate it. let's bring back my panel. kurt bardella, rick wilson,

david rohde, and molly jong-fast. for you kurt, right out of the gate here, obviously there are a lot of changes that are going to need to come about to get this thing exactly fitted right for everybody. we just heard that reporting from julie to some of that. what happens if this goes sideways? if for some reason the freedom caucus owns the moment, and steals this victory. how much of this does this blow back on joe biden and the lack of communication on the front and is moved this narrative more in their direction with the american people? >> you know, i think actually because of this deal coming right now, the expectation game has been well managed. the ball is really in kevin mccarthy's court now. the pressure is on kevin mccarthy to deliver the votes. if this thing falls apart now,

it's going to be because of house republicans. because of magats dreamiest successfully holding mccarthy hostage once again. they are the ones who will get the blame. we will be done with this both sides narrative, that each side has something to live. that this could blow back on the president. no. the president made the deal. the president did what he was elected to do. deliver deals for the american people that protect the most vulnerable among us. if this falls apart, if we default, if the economy craters, kevin mccarthy is now the face of this deal. there's a reason why he was the one that was on camera tonight, and not the president. so if this goes down because matt gaetz or marjorie taylor greene and her -- any of those crazy cuckoo mcgaughy poll decide to tank the u.s. economy, it's 100% going to be at the feet of the republican party and not the president. >> david, we are beginning to see some of the pieces of this deal coming into focus for us. the two you're spending cap aspects of it. the changes to the work requirements that --

but those seemingly facing out by 2030. no impact on medicaid. medicare. social security. what is your take, in terms of the framing that we are hearing so far, the american people should feel pretty good about this deal as well, in the final analysis, don't you think? >> that's my sense. biden's tweet, he talked about both sides didn't get what they wanted. this is governing. as my colleague talked about in the senate doing everything you can to derail whatever exists, there could be progressives who don't want to support this and house republicans, as kurt was saying. but a default would mean no social security checks going out. it's not just older voters that it would upset. i would be upset about my mother and father not getting their checks. i think most americans will support this. i think most americans, again,

want to see a functioning government. there is something here for both sides. they want to the country to stabilize. this pandemic was just devastating on so many levels for this country. there is been punishing inflation. if this economy can stabilize, and washington can function, i think that helps both sides. it definitely helps president biden, who is looking at reelection next year. >> rick, the interesting thing for me is watching mccarthy do the mccarthy thing. which is, yes, the world is collapsing around me. but i'm still cool. right? i still have control here. but i wonder now that we are getting reporting coming out that the freedom caucus is. really agitated by this. -- they're already starting to make some noise about trying to settle this. then the outside groups that really will weigh in heavily on this deal. how precarious is this moment

for mccarthy, in terms of all that he sacrificed to get to this point? doesn't leave him much in the bag to control the outcome here, does it? >> michael, i think that's right. he's got a very limited portfolio of tricks left in his book. one of the things people need to understand is kevin mccarthy's primary constituency isn't back in bakersville, california. it's with his friend jeff miller, who is his chief adviser and lobbyist. who brings kevin tens of millions of dollars of private equity money every year for republican campaigns. tens of millions to wall street. those folks, and the lobbying committee that kevin is much more comfortable with than the lunatic caucus of marjorie taylor greene and paul posts are, those people. those people have been beating him over the head, saying you better not crash this economy. this is an absolutely foolish suicidal game you are playing. on the other hand, he knows now that matt gaetz and the rest of the jihad ease are going to go

out there and try to blow up his speakership. kevin understood this as a very existential threat to the country. i think that he's going to still try to have it both ways. but look, you can't negotiate with terrorists. the anarchists, the terrorists, the nihilist to define the majority of the republican caucus today really don't want this deal to happen. they want -- it, look rhonda mcdaniel said, she thought that a default would be great for republican candidates. she said it three days ago. it's absolutely the most grotesque and unacceptable thing. but mccarthy is in supreme deepwater here. as my friend kurt said, this really does now go back into mccarthy's side of the court. the president has done what he came to do. he negotiated a deal. now, kevin mccarthy has to either wrangle the insane people or let speaker marjorie taylor greene takeover and see how it goes from there. >> molly, everybody at this moment is looking at how

mccarthy's dancing with his hard right caucus. and the noise that's beginning to emanate about scuttling this still. that's not necessarily a smooth sale on the left either. there are some issues that the more progressive members of the democratic caucus in the house, and the senate, would like to see protected. we are not very clear on exactly how much of they -- have to give up at this point. what kind of noise do you think they can make, very much as we are seeing coming from the right. or will the president be able to hold that line, unlike kevin, who seemingly is put a lot out to get to this moment? what does it look like for joe biden on the left? >> i think the good news for president biden is that the math on this is very good. right? if mccarthy presents this the way that the house is, there are only -- they only have a five vote advantage in the house.

there are 18 democrats, 18 republicans in the house who won in biden districts. you can see that those members of congress will actually, you know, will not necessarily hurt them, or might hurt them but they could make the excuse that they are in biden districts. if you get enough of the very moderate democrats, or even more progressive democrats, there is no evidence that -- look, we don't know what their work requirements are. that's going to be the thing that gets a lot of progressives. and a lot of more moderate democrats upset. but i think you'd have enough of a critical mass of people who do not want the united states economy to crush, and to go into default. and to possibly go into a recession, that i think they're going to vote for it. in the senate, you have the numbers to. i think really the question was, there had been this discharge petition and a lot of talk about that. but you couldn't get it on the floor, unless mccarthy wanted

it on the floor. i think if mccarthy wants this on the floor, i think there are the numbers to pass it. >> all right, kurt bardella, rick wilson, david rohde, and molly jiang fast. stick with me, we've got more on this tentative debt limit deal right after a quick break. uick break starting a new chapter can be the most thrilling thing in the world. there's an abundance of reasons to get started. how far we take an idea is a question of willpower. because progress... is a matter of character. she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the first-of-its-kind, once-daily pill for moderate-to-severe plaque psoriasis for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding your back...

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♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> welcome back to a busy night here in d.c.. let's get right back to our breaking news. president biden, house speaker mccarthy, and negotiators have reached a tentative agreement to raise the nation's debt ceiling. biden released a statement which he also tweeted a short time ago, there with me i'm going to read the whole statement for you. quote, earlier this evening, speaker mccarthy and i reached a budget agreement in principle. it is an important step forward that reduce his spending while protecting critical programs for working people and growing the economy for everyone. and, the agreement protects my and congressional democrats key

priorities and legislative accomplishments. the agreement represents a compromise, which means not everyone gets what they want. that's the responsibility of governing. and, this agreement is good news for the american people. because it prevents what could have been a catastrophic default, and would've led to an economic recession, retirement accounts devastated, and millions of jobs lost. over the next day, our negotiating teams will finalize legislative text. and the agreement will go to the united states house and senate. i strongly urge both chambers to pass the agreement right away. joining us now by phone is symone sanders-townsend. host of symone on msnbc. what information, new insights do you have to share with us? >> well, mr. -- i want to reiterate for folks that might not have heard our conversation last hour that republicans in congress are currently on a call with

speaker mccarthy, and the leadership of the house, the republican conference, walking through what mccarthy, again, just verbally, what the deal is. in principle, and taking questions. is our understanding. i don't think msnbc, i don't think we have someone currently on that call. there are other reporters who are hearing from republicans on that call. i've been hearing from democrats who have been hearing from some of the republican colleagues on that call. they've a lot of questions. what i've heard from democratic members of congress, and people who are directly with direct knowledge of what is in the agreement, is this. democrats are looking forward, democratic members of congress are looking forward to the call tomorrow at five piano eastern standard time. that call will be later on tomorrow because by that time it is expected that there will be actual text of the bill. the text is very important, because that is what they will vote on. speaker mccarthy is walking through our deal points, the

agreement in principle, the bullet points that we have heard. but tomorrow, there will be text, hopefully for all of us to see and come through. the democrats that i had spoken to are looking forward to seeing that text. we're just directly familiar with what is actually been agreed to, made the underlying point that there are -- that work requirements for a red line for the white house. that the white house put out that statement yesterday via andrew bates, white house spokesperson. who made a forceful case against work requirements. in what is their understanding, the work requirements are not a piece of this deal. what it is is age requirements. increases to age requirements for snap, that is food stamps. from 18 to 49, right now that's what it is under the current law. they're going to increase that from 18 to 50 in 2023. that is 18 to 52 in 20, and the next year in 2024.

then 18 to 54 in 2025. then it's -- this is important, this means if you're a person who is currently receiving, or who is on snap, receiving snap benefits. i.e., your own food stamps. and you're not a veteran, unhoused, or in foster care, or were a foster care participant, those age requirements do apply to you. across the board again, democrats are waiting to see what the text of the bill is. they still feel pretty good. michael, the last thing i'll say is this. it seems to me that all of this hemming and hawing about work requirements, there are now no work requirements in this bill. that is reporting from other outlets that members of the freedom caucus have said nothing that we put in the limits they -- the bill that republicans passed in april. on party lines outside of the house, to raise the debt ceiling and draft the spending. nothing they put in bill seems to be reflected in this

agreement. it seems to me that this is where things would have shaken out without these high stakes back and forth negotiations. so i wonder what speaker mccarthy gains from this, except showing that he fought. and then that exactly what he would've got if he didn't put up a fight. i think from the white house, looking at it from the white house's perspective, i think they can demonstrate that they are able to negotiate a deal. but at the end of the day, i'm still aware i was last hour. it did not have to be this way. i've heard from some democrats that they wish that the white house were a little bit more forceful. they understand that president biden believes that he should, he wants to be quiet in public, do his negotiations in private. but they do feel as though the narrative here, understanding yes, a deal was reached. but the narrative here and the damage that has been done by some of the rhetoric from some of the republican colleagues that have gone out and said something without being counted from the white house, is in

fact, significant. >> symone, i've been harping on that point for a long time now. i could not agree more with you. the democrats who've expressed that particular view. so the other side of that piece, because that's going to, that's going to be a factor that's going to have to be accounted for. i believe, at some point in this process, once something is officially agreed to. you are going to still's have to sell it. i think there's going to be a little bit of catch up for the democrats narrative louis. having said that, are you picking up anything that could potentially be a hot moment for the progressive members, like we've now realized for the conservatives on the republican side. again, not seeing the text, the deal points, as you pointed out all one thing. but when the text comes, is there any concern potentially that there is some hot pockets

there that could be a problem for the administration? >> members, a member, i've texted every single member in myself phone, mister chairman, saying was this really necessary? how do you really think? what are your thoughts? like our recording, members are saying, we want to see the text. i think that is very notable. democratic members of the house, and even some members of the senate in the democratic caucus, came out very forcefully with statements when they saw work requirements were on the table. when they heard president biden being open to negotiating on work requirements. you heard folks like senator bernie sanders, and the current chairman of the budget committee, senator whitehouse. you heard there were statements from the congressional progressive caucus, congresswoman -- you heard there was a statement from the congressional black caucus from the chairman, stephen horseburg. now, all of those members and more. we're not seeing lots of statements from the

progressives. on the democratic side. which i think underscores this point that they want to see what is in the deal text. look, i think the reality is, frankly, if you want to objectively look at this. i think democrats have been quite reasonable throughout this entire debacle, if you will. they didn't have conditions for raising the debt ceiling. they just said, fine, we should raise it. we raised it under donald trump three times. let's raise it here on joe biden. it was republicans in the house specifically who said, we're not going to raise this debt ceiling without a condition. unless there is something actually egregious in this text when we get it tomorrow, i think that folks should expect that they will be very little fanfare from progressives on the specifics of the bill. and more so likely about the process. because they are learning right along with us right now. >> all right, well it does say something, symone, that the dems are sitting there waiting

patiently for the text. while the republicans are getting exercised by the framework of the deal. that tells you a lot right there. they haven't seen the text. they are already losing their minds. msnbc, symone sanders-townsend. thank you so much for coming back and taking some time with us. folks, we will be right back with my expert panel for their final thoughts on this tentative deal, right after this. t afte this our business will save over $1000 bucks. what are you going to do with it? i could use a new sign. woooo! alright... ♪ soundproof windows. a new chair. save more than $1000 bucks versus verizon. and now, get the new samsung galaxy s23 plus free with no trade-in required. (cheering) free with no imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short.

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molly jong-fast, david wilson. let's end as we began. give us your final thoughts, kurt. i'll start with you. >> well, i'm going to direct my thoughts here at my fellow democrats and the progressives. listen, this is a good deal. take the win. if you look around and realize that you are yelling just as loudly as matt gaetz or marjorie taylor greene, or -- you need to reassess what you are doing. you do not want to torpedo this deal. this right now is in the lap of kevin mccarthy in the republicans. let them fight it out. if you actually want a better deal in the future, channel your energy. channel your platform, channel your organizing skills to winning elections. increased democratic numbers. you can get whatever deal you want. that is the solution. it's not going to be to puddling this deal. >> that spot on. molly, how about you?

>> i don't think progressives have the numbers to torpedo this deal. i think there are enough voters, if you can get some republicans, the same caucus. i think we just don't have the body of the deal yet. i think ultimately, look, nobody wants to crash the united states economy. until now, progressives have been way more reasonable than the far-right, or even the middle right. so i would give them credit where credit is due. >> david, how about you my friend? >> i think the message of the last midterm elections was a push for centrism, for moderates in the republican party. all of donald trump's far-right candidates fared very poorly. i think so, therefore, people are going to think twice before they torpedo this package. i think you will see that. republicans might take that risk, but i think many democrats will back it as well. again, people want a growing

economy and some stability in the wake of the pandemic. >> rick, how about you? because you come at this from a very different perspective given the work that you've been doing through the lincoln project. in a moment like this, how do you see the administration explaining it? how do other groups like their explain it? what is the final take we should all walk away with? >> the lincoln project, we put that amount today basically calling on republicans to cut the crap. stop being economic terrorists, stop pretending this is some washington game. it isn't going to hurt american manufacturing, american agriculture, american large and small business. the stock portfolios of every retirement account in the century. and folks on social security. we outlined very clearly what the risk factors of playing games with this deal was. that i think that at some point,

a few of those 18 republicans who were in biden districts, are going to realize that they need to do the right thing for the country. it is going to cause enormous chaos inside the republican party as the qanon caucus and the crazies go at kevin mccarthy. matt gaetz told mccarthy when they were negotiating the speakership, that he would blow them up if they did a debt ceiling deal with joe biden. we're gonna see if that's true or not. i predict that the folks who have traditionally been dedicated to chaos than governance, they're going to put on their chaos pince-nez to and try to kill the deal first. then kill mccarthy second. >> okay, i've got to go back to kurt on that last point. kurt, given what you've just said, in the face of what rick just said, how do they -- the fact that there has not been this forward communication by democrats on this matter. what are they, what do you expect that response to be when

this effort gets underway as rick just laid out. they don't heed his words, and stopping economic terrorists, but in fact lean into that. what is the counter measure from democrats at that point, given the delicate balance here in terms of amassing those votes? >> i think the balance here, it's a simple choice. it's competency over chaos. i think that it inspite there were some misgivings about what the communication has been like so far, ultimately the devil is in the details. the proofs in the pudding. the president delivered a very good deal for democrats, that is put cat republicans and kevin mccarthy in a very real blind. at this point, maybe or after having passed infrastructure package. after having done the inflation reduction act. after having done accomplishment after accomplishment that no one thought could get done, this president and this white house have earned the benefit of the doubt from the members to trust that when they say are they going to protect our institutions, they will

actually do that. republicans right now, they are falling on their own chaos grenade. let them keep doing that. let them fight amongst themselves why the rest of us spend our time moving the ball forward. getting things done for the country and pointing at the fact that it is the republicans who are still doubling down on this insane agenda of anti democracy. going after women, going after women's rights, putting forward and white nationalist agenda designed to undermine the entire fabric of this country. that should be the conversation we need to get back to. the only way we can do that, is if we suspect fully get this budget deal done. >> these are some interesting times. i'm going to read to you guys as we go out a quote from jim jordan. republican from ohio, who says, he still wants to see the final language, according to a source on the call. but added, if i understand for the first time in u.s. history, we are spending less money than the year before. that seems like a pretty darn good deal to me. there it is. we shall see how this plays

out. to my panel, i want to give my thanks. kurt bardella, rick wilson, david rohde, molly jong-fast. thank you guys so much for hanging with me this evening and for spending your last saturday night of -- with me. you are going to take me to the break right now. we'll be right back a little bit later on first. t later on first what are you going to do with it? i could use a new sign. woooo! alright... ♪ soundproof windows. a new chair. save more than $1000 bucks versus verizon. and now, get the new samsung galaxy s23 plus free with no trade-in required. ♪ ♪ ♪

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before we go. the future documentary unconditional is coming up tonight at 11 p.m., msnbc's very own lectured louis chronicles the uplifting caregiving journeys of three different families, including his own. the film follows these families as they fight through physical and mental health challenges over the course of several years. >> live in new york city, i've been a journalist for 15 years. then my dad got diagnosed with alzheimer's. >> my son richard.

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a lifetime. >> love you,. >> love you too. >> the reason i carry on, it's because of family, community, and love. >> unconditional is next at 11 pmi eastern. right here on msnbc. thank you all so much for making time for us this evening. i'm michael steele. goodnight. goodnight. (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon. the network she can count on. and now she's got myplan. the game changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants, and save on every perk. sadie's getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone 14 pro! cute couple. trips don't last forever. neither does summer love. so, sadie's moving on. apple music? check. introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch.

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