for us >> reporter: police say the 28-year-old suspect fired 152 rounds, killing six people including three children those victims now honored at a growing memorial outside the school one of tennessee's deadliest school shootings marked by horror >> you don't understand. i'm so scared. my children are in the building, ma'am. >> reporter: and courage >> totally proud of our men for what he did. >> reporter: kathy park, neeks n nbc news. we have a lot to cover in the second hour of "chris jansing reports. let's get right to it. at this hour, job openings tumbling below 10 million for the first time in nearly two years. is the federal reserve's fight against inflation working? that's next. what the justice department

says will quote, end a painful chapter. the new details on the tentative but huge civil settlement between doj and victims of the 2017 sutherland springs church mass shooting. why intelligence officials are keeping a close eye on russia and china right now after trump's indictment what they're trying to stop from happening. and republican house speaker kevin mccarthy threatens alvin bragg with action on the hill. our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments i want to go first to nbc's ali vitali who has been following the threats from house republicans against bragg. we heard what donald trump had to say last night with alvin bragg, now speaker mccarthy is jumping in what's his angle. >> reporter: look, for mccarthy, it's more of what we have seen from him even before the trump indictment became official, we watched mccarthy mobilize here on the hill three powerful committee chairman from oversight, judiciary, and administration,

all asking alvin bragg to come and testify before them, and i use that work asking because they have not yet subpoenaed him. certainly that's something that might become a topic of discussion because if you read kevin mccarthy's latest tweet and you listen to the comments from these key committee chairmen, it sound like they're going to keep pressing ahead mccarthy tweeting today in part that bragg is attempting to interfere in our democratic process by invoking federal law to bring politicized charges against president trump at the same time arguing that the people's representatives in congress lack jurisdiction to investigate this farce mccarthy goes on to say then not so, bragg's weaponization of the federal justice process will be held accountable by congress bragg, of course, as mccarthy alludes to has said that there are several reasons why he won't appear before congress, in part, because he doesn't feel this is congressional jurisdiction because it's a local court's matter, but also because this is still an active investigation

that's going on. we'll watch this jockeying effort if you look at mccarthy and the other key committee chairmen, they are key to keep counter attacking in the name of the former president. >> thanks for that stay with us we're going to talk with you again in a bit in the meantime, u.s. intelligence is keeping a close eye on russia and china, in case they try to stoke more anger in america. courtney kube covers national security what exactly are they looking for here, courtney >> reporter: so specifically they're looking for any influence campaigns or evidence of any influence campaigns that may be looking to either amplify existing political divisions or even so unrest or protests, specifically related to the arrest and the indictment of former president donald trump. so u.s. officials who we spoke with, our colleague carol lee and i spoke with, said that they are seeing and have consistently seen disinformation and misinformation campaigns that are specific to president donald

trump. but they haven't seen a lot of evidence of any efforts that are specific to the indictment beyond sort of the more vague disinformation campaigns that exist all over the internet and frankly have for years so they're specifically watching for anything that would be emanating out of russia and china. as you well know, chris, russia that has and has experience in disinformation campaigns specifically within the u.s. election system. so that would not be new, but the concern here is that specific to former president trump's indictment, there may be efforts to sow unrest or even protest, and that has some of these officials who we spoke with on high alert watching for this kind of activity online, chris. >> courtney, we appreciate you staying up into the early morning hours there in taiwan. thank you so much. it could be the end of a year's long legal battle for victims of the 2017 church mass shooting in southernland springs, texas apparently they have agreed on a settlement after a judge ruled

that the federal government does bear some responsibility for the attack nbc's ken dilanian is following all of this for us what do we know about the details of this proposed settlement >> good afternoon, chris, we're told it's a settlement of around $144 million, which would put it around the largest of its kind in these sorts of cases where the federal government has been accused of negligence in a mass shooting, and there's been a number of them if you'll recall the government paid 127 1/2 million dollars to the families of the victims in that parkland, florida, school shooting, and another $88 million to those involved in that charleston, south carolina, shooting back in 2015. and the crux of this case is that the shooter in this case was in the air force and was convicted of domestic violence, and an air force investigation found that there were six separate occasions where that information, that shooter's fingerprints and his details and the domestic violence information should have been forwarded to the fbi and put in a data base which would have prevented him from buying one of

the assault rifles that he used in the shooting to kill 26 people in one of the most horrific attacks in our nation's history while they were attending sunday services, and so a federal judge found last year in favor of the plaintiffs in this case awarded $235 million to the 75 plaintiffs, but the justice department then appealed to the anger and chagrin of those plaintiffs this is an arrangement now, a settlement, where both sides have agreed on this. there's no admission of liability. the attorney general's representatives have signed off on it. and now all it needs is a judge to approve it, and these families can get their money, chris. >> ken dilanian, thank you for that. now to a new report on jobs that just came out this morning, and it could give us clues on where the economy overall is headed cnbc's jeff cox is here. good to see you again. what are the numbers exactly and

who how do they fit into the big picture? >> the fed got reports on bad news is good news when it comes to the job market. the first came tuesday when it comes to the labor department that job openings are below 10 million for the first time since around may of 2020 the second one came today. 180 p, which is payroll processing firm, told us there were just 145,000 jobs created in march, which was a substantial drop and we're actually on a quarterly basis creating less than half of the amount of jobs that we were creating last year. so for the fed, this kind of takes a little bit of the heat off them they're worried about inflation, and in familiar, the red hot jobs market, the wage increases and the pressure that's putting on inflation so this maybe gives them an opportunity to take their foot off the brake a little bit market pricing indicating the fed is likely to pause next month, not raise interest rates, so the fed just has been wanting to see not a collapse of the labor market but a little bit of a slow down in the labor market, and they got that news this week

with a couple of pretty important reports. >> cnbc's jeff cox, thank you. the stunning victory in the chicago mayor's race, how a former union organizer pulled it off, and the conundrum facing republicans with their party leader now under indictment, will they get into what the party's future could look like in just 60 seconds you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control,

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circles? is there any doubt from anybody you're hearing that trump is still the future of the republican party >> reporter: chris, i think what happened yesterday may have actually solidified that future. look, what i'm hearing from republicans across the board, and i'm talking about republicans who support trump, who have always supported trump, and those republicans who want to see the party move on from the former president they are all frustrated with what is going on here. look, we know that the president's supporters, the former president's supporters have been out in full force on fox news, on newsmax, on all of these networks, coming to his defense, talking about how this is a weaponization of the legal system, criticizing the d.a. on the other hand, the folks who are against the former president, the republicans who don't want to see him continue to have such power in the party, they are also frustrated with this indictment because they

believe that this is only going to help him in the primary they believe that this is going to help galvanize his support among the grass roots, among some of the voters they were hoping to potentially steer away from trump and towards another candidate like desantis. at this point, this is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room the former president knows this. we see how his campaign is trying to capitalize on this we continuously receive those fundraising e-mails, the indictment swag. they're sellingt-shirts with a fake mug shot on it, that i hear from sources in the campaign is selling very well. they're telling me now they're up to $12 million in fundraising since the news of the indictment dropped, so politically, this is a moment that they are capitalizing on and doing so successfully so far, chris. >> i want to bring in mark leibovitz, a staff writer for the atlantic, and msnbc political contributor. you have a great article, you

write, the gop's ongoing willingness to fuse itself to trump's deranged and slippery character has been its most defining feature for years the question is why it continues after all of these embarrassment and election defeats and why republicans at long last don't use the former presidents's mounting milestones of malfeasance as a means of setting themselves free from their orange albatross i think you wrote that before the indictment how do you explain, mark, the party's reluctance, still, not just to abandon trump but for most of them, not even speak ill of him >> yeah, this speaks to what dasha just said which is that, yes, quietly, i think there were a lot of republicans who will publicly support him, but wish, you know, again, off camera, that this would be the kind of development that would steer republicans away from supporting him, and, you know, on the opposite, it looks like it is

solidifying, at least for the last few days, his role as the front runner now, look, i mean, you can't beat someone with nobody and the silence around, you know, the desantis camp, the haley camp, pence camp, other than complete deference to, you know, the overreach, the weaponization, all of the watch words dejour, you know, has been pretty telling in that, look, it looks like the third consecutive presidential cycle, they seem more than willing to roll over for him and let the damage sort of play out as far as, you know, another potential electoral defeat, which has been kind of a bad track record for trump over the last several, you know, years. so look, i mean, again, i think this is another potential off ramp, another overused term, and it looks like, again, the instinct to ral i ly around and roll over is going to continue. >> i was a little surprised when i saw what you sent out, which

are some new fundraising numbers for nikki haley, probably a little stronger than some people might have expected? >> certainly they're feeling good about it, especially when they consider they have only been in the race for six weeks they have managed to fund raise to the tune of $11 million, keeping $8 million cash on hand as they head into really the structural building of their campaign they've got over 70,000 donations and it struck me, as someone who nikki haley has stuck by trump through this indictment, they do kind of get a dig in here in their press release about this, pointing out that haley is raising more money in her first quarter as an official candidate than trump did at the end of last year in his first quarter as an official candidate. a little bit of a dig as we watch her remain steady fast in support in the after math of the indictment if we can zoom out past this a little bit, here in congress where i'm standing and stand almost every day, they're clearing keying in on continuing

their counter attack in the name of donald trump. you and i were just talking about that. for every candidate and operative in 2024 who thinks this is just a stand alone moment, the thing we don't know how it's going to play out, trump managed to use this to his advantage this time, and he could have more indictments in the future that they have an option to rally around we don't know when anything is going to come out of fulton county we don't know what the department of justice here in washington is going to do. there are several probes here, and if trump can manage at each of those turns to ratchet up the base, to milk his fundraising, to make people rally to his cause, even his would be rivals, that is something that's going to be really hard for them to continue just standing by him, so there's so much that we don't know right now the trump conventional wisdom might be right it might be the thing that consolidates his base and pitches him through the primary. it's also potentially true that his rivals could realize they have a few more news cycles that

are going to look similar to this will any of them change their tact and, exploit it as a sign they need to move on. >> george will argues that before republican debates begin this summer, the party needs to field, and this is a quote, an array of aspirants from their strong bench it's risky to divide the nontrump vote. it is however riskier today to wager everything about nine months before iowa begins the delegate selection on one person easy to say that you might even agree with it, but do you see it happening, mark >> yeah, i mean, it's one thing to say that the party needs to do this. i mean, the party is not an entity this entity here is human beings who have almost, you know, to a person been completely kcowed by donald trump and unwilling to jump into the race or critique in a meaningful way. it's not like they don't have a lot of material to work with i mean, the guy, you know, say

what you will about the case, and you know, it seems like it could be, you know, it's debatable whether this is a strong case or certainly the strongest case to bring first, but it's not a good look it's just not a good thing to be indicted, especially if you're donald trump and there's more stuff that could be coming down the pike so i don't know, it just seems like if you really want to move on from donald trump as so many prominent republicans say quietly, this would be an opportunity to really sort of, you know, get the wheels in motion but again, i mean, coward ice ha been the m.o. for the matter from a long time starting pretty much in 2016 and right to today, and that looks like it's continuing to this point. >> you know, mark, and this is a 30,000 foot question, but in a not-so-long-ago-era, the details that came out yesterday would have provided a political scandal, the likes of which brought down everybody from gary hart to eliot spitzer, have

voters values changed or did trump change them? s >> well, i mean, you know, theoretically, the republican party until recently prided itself on being the party of family values, personal responsibility, just sort of, you know, basically being a -- just being a stand up person and actually being able to speak truths to sort of normal americans who don't find themselves in these situations commonly, and, look, it has transformed absolutely, chris, around the personality and around the failings and the sort of personal, you know, quirks of donald trump and we've seen it over and over and over again look, i don't know watt party stands for at this point it's certainly not a set of issues like, you know, whether it's small government or, you know, what have you. but, again, this is sort of what a cult of personality looks like, and it sort of continues, you know, no matter how many news cycles like this we have to endure. >> you know, one of the things that george will says is, ali,

that got to do this before the debates, which are going to start in the summer. right now, you're looking at trump, nikki haley, asa hutchinson who hasn't officially announced. the rnc, they have been pretty unabashedly pro trump. if you're one of these other people who's running and you're going to get into the debate, are you going to think you're going to get a fair shake here or maybe another question is will trump even participate in the debates? i don't know what are you hearing about all of this? >> yeah, to your first question, if you have doubts about the process as a republican candidate not named trump, what choice do you have it's still the biggest stage, it's the party apparatus all of them have been in the republican mix for a long time i mean, nikki haley, not just a former trump cabinet m administration official but a two-term governor. all of these other folks who could get in are also similarly

in with the grass roots, the party apparatus, those concerns might exist, but i think it's on the party to try to make this fair, if you want to say that. we still have yet to see what the thresholds are going to be to make the debate stage except for the one parameter that they have said around asking would be candidates to ultimately support the nominee. that's something when i had an exclusive interview with mike pence a few weeks ago, he told me that's something that he would likely sign. that's as much aimed at everyone who's never trump or not for trump, as it is at trump himself. we remember, and we did this in realtime, you and i, when i was covering the trump campaign, when we were covering the trump campaign in 2016, questioning if he would support the nominee if it wasn't him, we're about to go on that merry go round again >> dasha burns, ali vitali, mark leibovich, thank you very much. chicago has elected a new mayor, brandon johnson, staunch progressive, defeated his tough on crime moderate opponent, paul

vallas after a month's long campaign vallas out spent johnson in tv ads and attacking johnson for stances on defunding the police. here's the mayor-elect on "morning joe." >> all of us are going to come together to build a better, stronger, safer chicago, and what's required in this moment is real collaboration. bringing people together that's something that i'm actually pretty good at. >> steve kornacki is at the big board. we had a couple of big races walk us through it. >> you start with the chicago mayoral race paul vallas won the preliminary. lori lightfoot, she became the first incumbent to lose reelection in four decades these were two candidates here brandon johnson trailed slightly in the polling, does pull out the victory. this is the closest general election for mayor of chicago in

40 years since back in 1983 when harold washington was elected over bernard epton an interesting result, given, too, that some of the polling in the runup to the election suggested vallas might have an advantage of severalpoints take the polling at a municipal level, maybe this a reminder with a grain of assault. the other election was in wisconsin, the state supreme court, why do we talk about this nationally all sorts of major issues will be adjudicated by the court in wisconsin. issues we talk about nationally, talking about abortion, potentially the 2024 presidential election. they don't have official partisan elections in wisconsin, but you have a democratic aligned candidate, a republican aligned candidate and the significance of the victory for janet protasiewicz, the liberal wing of the court for the first time in 15 years in wisconsin now has a majority the wisconsin high court has had a conservative majority since

2008 with conservative daniel kelly losing yesterday that flips around, and if you just look at the pattern here, 10 point win overall for the liberal candidate in this race you just see the story lines that we have been talking about. you were talking about in your discussion a little bit, too story lines we have been talking about since donald trump emerged. one has to do with the suburbs right outside of milwaukee a couple of these are huge in terms of population, they make up together these three counties 15% of the vote in the state republicans used to rely on huge massive pluralities out of these counties to win in wisconsin you see they were red last night. look how the counties are changing this is north of milwaukee the republican won, republican-aligned candidate, less than 5 points trump won it by 12 in 2016 trump won it by 19, go back to 2012 it's come all the way down to five points. this is a theme we have been talking about in wisconsin, we have been talking about nationally about republicans losing ground in those suburban

areas with high degrees of college -- high concentrations of college degrees ozaki has the highest concentration of college degrees. d dane county where madison is, a very liberal county. democrats keep finding ways to run up the score even more dane county, protasiewicz got 82% of the vote, better than joe biden got against donald trump in 2020. and, in fact, this is sort of a landmark moment. nearly 200,000 votes, she gets out of dane county, compare that to milwaukee county, which traditionally produces the most votes for a democrat, more democratic votes out of dane than came out of milwaukee last night, so in these really liberal areas, too, college towns, democrats just getting more and more voters out, getting them more and more motivated, you saw that in the result in wisconsin last night. >> the shift is fascinating, and has big implications for 2024.

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we just got in some new video from moments ago in poland ukrainian president zelenskyy speak to go a large crowd in the courtyard of the royal castle in warsaw this is only his third trip out of the country since the war began. but it's where many ukrainian refugees remain after fleeing the war. earlier today, zelenskyy thanked the u.s. for an additional $2.6 billion in military aid he's been touting the additional air defense systems the u.s. is providing including gun trucks and laser guided weapons to counter russia's relentless use of drones in ukraine nbc's matt bradley joins me now

from kyiv. m matt, how could this military aid change things on the ground? what's zelenskyy's prerspective here >> reporter: first of all, we have to remember this is a $2.6 billion package, while this does sound like an eye popping figure, it is just a sliver of the $35 billion that have been committed by the u.s. towards the ukrainians so that's not necessarily going to look all that different it's going to feel like a drop in the bucket. all of the goodies that the ukraines are used to are in this package. what they need most on the ground in the front lines are ammunition, and that's what you're seeing a lot of in this package here you're talking about howitzer shells, you're talking about patriot missile for the signature u.s. patriot missile launchers, that are so crucial in this fight. the thing that zelenskyy was really pointing to were the 10 cuas laser guided rocket systems. these are going to be used specifically in order to shoot down iranian-made drones you remember, these iranian 136

drones that the russians have been buying, the russians have been using them to devastating effect all across the country, but particularly here in the capital of kyiv to knock out civilian infrastructure like electricity and gas works, and this has been keeping this city for most of this past winter in the dark it looks like it's in the dark now, but that's because of the heavy fog. the fact is that it has been so difficult for the ukrainians to shoot these down, even though they have been shooting them down using anti-air defense missiles to a rate of something between 70% and 90%. each one of these 136 iranian drones that have been slamming into targets here, they cost about $25,000. but shooting them down can cost as much as half a million dollars. so as you can see, that's really inefficient, and that wasn't going to sustain itself. that's why we're seeing the u.s. bringing new weapons to bear against these iranian made drones that have been used to back out so much of this country

for a war that is now going well into almost its 14th month, chris. >> matt bradley in kyiv, thank you for that and we have a historic moment from earlier today, the first nato family photo to include finland. after that country formally joined the world's biggest security alliance in a major blow to russia this signals a major policy shift for nato, and roughly doubles the length of its border with russia as the war in ukraine continues, as matt just said, we're looking at 14 months now with no end in sight thefounder of a popular money transfer app was killed early this morning in san francisco. what we know about what happened plus tens of millions of people still at risk in the midwest after baseball-sized hail and tornadoes like this one ripped through the region. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc my mental health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds.

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right now, missouri officials are warning more twisters could strike soon after a tornado tore through the state overnight, killing at least five people the storms brought widespread damage across the midwest, ripping off roofs, flipping over massive trucks in illinois look at that in chicago, there was hail the size of golf balls nbc's maggie vespa is live from the windy city the region, it feels like it's been going on for weeks. they've had almost nonstop severe weather for 24 hours.

there's still some weather alerts out there i mean, what are you hearing how long are folks going to have to hold out while this weather continues to pound them? >> reporter: yeah, well, it seems like the threat is thankfully dissipating in some parts of the midwest to your point, this is the threat in this kind of latest system, in a series of systems that has just seemed endless people are exhausted and perhaps nowhere more this morning than glen allen, missouri, the video from the small rural missouri city a couple of hours south of st. louis. we have drone video. you can see it, multiple videos decimated. this is a small, rural community, a town of dozens. you can see widespread destruction, homes, buildings that were on farms, people telling us they heard the winds coming, and they barely had time to sprint to their bathrooms, their basements to take cover before the tornado tore through. the death count out of that small community, five people with multiple others injured,

according to missouri highway patrol who has been leading the search and rescue operation. that being said, we are hearing reports of 11 tornadoes from the latest system across the midwest having touched down in iowa, illinois and missouri. again, this was a widespread line stretching all the way from basically wisconsin and michigan down into louisiana. 62 million people in the risk zone for this latest series of systems. and i just want to lay out these stats that we just got from our climate unit kind of speak to how exhausting this latest series has been, how exhausting this year has been quite frankly. in 2023, according to our climate team, we have had 478 reported tornadoes across 25 states in the u.s. 478 year to date that is double the typical average for this time of year, and this is the third most on record for early april of any year on the books. also on top of that, 63 tornado-related deaths typically we have 71 over the course of an entire year

so we have 63 so far this year this has been a devastating year, and this is, of course, just the latest onslaught. chris. >> maggie vespa, you stay safe out there. we appreciate it. a high profile tech executive, the founder of cashapp, bob lee was stabbed to death early this morning near downtown san francisco most recently, lee, who is just 42 years old was an exec at mobile coin. in a statement, the company called him the quintessential creator, leader and consummate hacker steve patterson joins me now what more do we know about what happened here? >> police making it very clear that it is early in this investigation, and so details at this point are very limited. let me give you the rough outline of what we do know police responding at 2:35, very early on this morning to a man in his 40s with multiple stab wounds family and friends later identifying that man as bob lee. he was found very wounded,

police call first responders and medics to the scene. they're trying to do all they can to stop the bleeding he's rushed to a local hospital where he succumbs to those injuries no person of interest police have released. we don't know a motive, and no arrests have been made the district attorney also speaking out saying a crime like this cannot stand in the city of san francisco but also saying no person of interest, no arrests have been made, so the most information we've heard has come from the business and tech community, character information from people like jack dorsey, and elon musk talking about what a beautiful soul this guy really had. you get the sense that he was really one of the good ones. and we've heard testimony, it was really all over the internet, but as far as police, they are still investigating, it is still early on. they are still trying to name somebody responsible for this, and they're still trying to learn why. >> steve patterson, thank you for that. former president trump's defense team just getting started. do they have a real chance of getting the case thrown out even before it goes to trial?

plus, a survey of historians had trump at the bottom three of u.s. presidents, but that was before yesterday's arrest. how will history judge donald trump? we'll talk to historian douglas brinkley you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes.

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this one about january 6th and the testimony of former vice president mike pence i want to go to laura jarrett and, laura, i know we were in a situation where there was a question about would he appeal whether or not he had to testify. what are you learning now? >> just a week ago i was with you when we got the news that the judge had ordered the former vice president to testify in the special counsel's probe into the former president's efforts to cling to power, to block the certification results of the 2020 election, chris, and we can now report that the former vice president has opted not to appeal that ruling, which is an interesting decision obviously there were two sets of arguments at play. former president trump had argued that executive privilege should block pence from testifying because normally those conversations are held in private. it allows for some frank deliberation between the former president and his senior aides that argument did not work in front of the federal judge pence had made a different argument, a constitutional

argument, something of a novel claim resting on the speech or debate clause because he presided over the senate that day, he argued he should be immune from testimony. the judge decided, however, given trump's alleged illegality, pence would nevertheless have to testify, and pence has now decided to go ahead and testify and comply with that judge's order, chris now, i should mention here, we do not know whether trump will appeal this ruling so it's not as if pence is going to run into the courthouse today. trump can appeal this. he has the opportunity to do so. however, i should note, he has lost almost every case in which he has tried to appeal these rulings on executive privilege grounds. just yesterday, a d.c. court of appeals had ruled that his most senior aides, not pence, but other ones, will have to testify in this exact special counsel probe. the headline is that pence will not appeal. >> one of the things that i think we absolutely do know, and we've talked about this before, laura, but i think it's worth

reiterating, is that there are things that donald trump and mike pence talked about that only donald trump and mike pence know about and that's obviously why jack smith wants to talk to him he has very particular knowledge of key moments, key conversations, right >> that's exactly right. and many of those conversations, chris, he actually details in a "wall street journal" argue as well as his own memoir he goes into some of those conversations, but obviously the special counsel wants to pull back the curtain on that a little bit more, and obviously delve deeper, and obviously testifying in front of a grand jury under oath is different than talking about it in a book. i also want to mention here a statement from pence's adviser, devin o'malley who says in part here that the court vindicated the principle of the constitution, and actually upheld for the first time in history that the speech or debate clause extends to the vice president of the united

states so pence's team here obviously saying that, look, the judge did rule in his favor in part, recognizing that presiding over the senate that day, that is protected, but of course what the special counsel wants is all of the conversations that happened leading up to january 6th and it's that part that he is not immune from testifying about. >> big news, pence will not fight the order that he testify before the special counsel grand jury thank you for that breaking news here with me now, criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos. i think it's worth, again, reiterating what she just said, trump has lost virtually every one of the fights like this. there are constitutional precedents that are being upheld here. >> this is exciting, this pence ruling for no other reason that these kinds of decisions do further sketch out or give us an idea of the contours of the constitution it was a novel legal argument and one that essentially has created new law in the sense that a court is recognized for the first time that a vice

president, a member of the executive branch might have some immunity or some speech or debate immunity or constitutional protections arising from his role in the senate as a member of the legislature. fascinating stuff, but keep in mind, pence had indicated before he was going to fight this all the way to the supreme court that was in reports not too long ago. he has changed this too probably indicates he's taking a political tact here, which is to fight a little but not fight so much that it looks like he's hand in hand with trump. so he will go testify. he's not going to appeal he could have. it's a fascinating constitutional issue, one the supreme court might have found just as interesting as the rest of us have. >> what we don't know is when the testimony might happen if it does happen. i want to talk about the case of the day, which remains what's happening in manhattan we know a little bit more about the schedule, right? donald trump's defense team plotting strategy with the

deadline of august 8th to file motions in the 34 count case against their clinent. ranging from change of venue to having the case dismissed entirely, and then the prosecution will have until december 19th to respond judge merchan will have 76 days after that to go through everything before he is expected to deliver his final decision on motions december 4th notably december 4th is when we are expecting to see trump the next time in court so, danny, along with us now, the trump defense team seeing the charges, what do you think they're likely to do what are they going to be focusing on in terms of that first deadline >> i love playing defense attorney here. >> funny, you actually are one. >> exactly, yes. i expect they might move to change venue this is the most fascinating motion to me because almost all of these motions fail. i've never had one granted i can think of a handful and that dates back to the supreme court's decision in shepherd v.

maxwell, that's the basis for the fugitive >> staten island, a more conservative part of new york city >> let's talk about that, that's where it gets interesting. let's assume this motion were granted and it won't be, the next dilemma is where do you send it? the general rule in new york, and it is not a hard and fast rule, the courts have said this is not a requirement, but you usually go to an adjoining county i know we're on an island here, but an adjoining county is probably one of the boroughs, each a county in new york city, but oh what a difference a county makes if you send him to the bronx, at least if you look at the voting results from the 2020 election, he would be in worse shape, trump, than if he stayed in manhattan, at least according to the polls. again, polls are not dispositive, and the courts have said we're not going to rely on surveys and poll numbers because a juror may decide, well, i might have voted for biden but i can be fair and impartial, but just for the moment we have robust data about how people

feel about trump in manhattan and the bronx. a huge victory, and i can't under state or overstate this enough is getting to staten island the numbers there are dramatically different staten island is trump country if by some miracle he got this case into staten island, and it would be a miracle because judges deny these motions and then he would have to be one our four to get over to staten island as opposed to some other county i think that's a long shot if he gets to staten island, that would be the promised land. i think it could affect the outcome. i think it would almost secure a win. >> there's going to be a lot of conversation about that going forward. danny cevallos, thank you so much. the legacy of donald j. trump is complicated enormously popular with his base, we know this, but in the most recent survey of historians, the former president ranked as the third worst president in u.s. history, and that was before yesterday's historic indictment. presidential historian doug brinkly joins me from reduce university in houston where he's

a professor of history donald trump has said many times he thinks he's the greatest president of all time, maybe second, but in reality, and let's take the big picture apart, how is history likely to look at this moment? >> you know, donald trump when he first became president, he tried to grab ahold of the mantle of andrew jackson, the idea that he was a disruptive force, that he was the populous president. trump put andrew jackson's portrait in the white house to be photographed by it. he went to the hermitage in nashville to visit it. but alas, andrew jackson was a great military hero in the war of 1812, and the analogy to jackson has eroded over time due to the double impeachment and the indignity associated with that that trump suffered, january 6th and trump's reckless almost anti-american behavior during the insurrection, and now 34 felony counts against him

so he's really not even to be considered in the presidents club anymore it's more of a team of outlaws, mafia leaders, dillenger and the like >> yeah, i mean, talk about the enormity of knowing whatever happens donald trump was, indeed, the first former president to be arrested, finger printed, arraigned short of a conviction is that always going to be, if not the first line, the first paragraph of the historical record in the future >> it's going to be the first paragraph but it looks like there are more indictments to come, so there's going to be the lo of indictments in that first paragraph but the opposite side of this is we may be living in the age of trump, and i don't mean donald j. himself, but the idea of celebrities as presidents, social influencing with social media. you know, it's a different world right now than previous

presidents have faced. you have to think of are we living in the age of trump where he's dominating all conversation in 100 years from now, it's going to be called the age of trump or is he a kind of oneoff, one term asterisk president just with a laundry list of felonies and impeachments and crazy statements and be seen as kind of a malady in history of our country, a dark spot, a mccarthy type of reign. so we'll have to see a lot is going to depend on whether he gets reelected or not. >> and whether there are anymore indictme indictments. we don't know what's coming, but all of that will be decided after we're not here thank you so much. that's going to do it for us this hour. don't miss my colleague ana cabrera, premiering monday at 10:00 a.m. eastern, so happy to have her on board.

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good to be with all of you, i'm alex witt in for katy tur. we have news just into us on former vice president mike pence's role in the special investigation of former president donald trump pence will not