races. they needed to educate why the races mattered, what they were, who was running, all of that stuff. we're usually not focused on those types of races but after investments and the issues of democracy, abortion, voting, and all these other things that the supreme court will consider. this democrat really used the outside help to defeat dan kelly, the conservative to her right who in 2020 was close to the fake electors scheme to overturn the results of the election in that state and in 2020, only one single conservative justice on the state supreme court who stood between himself and the other judges from over turning the results of the election in that state. it's another sign of the power of the bodies and how one person makes a huge difference. that's why democrats are celebrating today and the next decade as she hold ths that sea.

>> and another loss for the trump movement sweeping across the state. >> thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning a jammed back "morning joe" starts now. on a basis that every single pundit and legal analyst said there is no case. >> 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree. >> he knew there was no case. >> it was a felony to falsify business records with intent to defraud. >> everybody said this is not really an indictment, there's nothing here. >> these are felony crimes in new york city state. >> my lawyers said there's nothing here. >> the defendant repeatedly made false statements. >> they're not not saying what you did. >> he always caused others to make false statements. >> charging a former president of the united states for the first time in history. >> everyone stands equal before the law.

>> donald trump and manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg, held two very different news conferences following yesterday's historic arraignment of a president we'll go through what we learned about the indictment and what's next for the case in just a moment meanwhile, the former president's allies in congress are doing what they can to appease him and his base we'll show you the warning house speaker kevin mccarthy had for the da also ahead we'll go through the big races decided by voters yesterday as wisconsin supreme court is going to a liberal majority for the first time in 15 years >> we talked about this yesterday. that is such a massive story i know we're all looking at the trump indictment right now this will have a much bigger impact likely in years to come. and the most important swing state and it once again shows that for whatever reason,

democrats are able to mobilize their base much better than republicans and once again, as dave wasserman says it points to abortion and roe being overturned. >> also this morning, chicago's mayoral race where the winner has a message for the 270,000 people who did not vote for him. we'll play for you those comments good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is wednesday, april 5th, along with joe, willie and me we have jonathan lemire attorney and contributing columnist for "the washington post," george conway and co-host of "the circus" john heileman and former fbi official chuck rosenberg, an nbc news analyst

a good group on a big day. >> it's a massive day. let's talk to smart people, what's your take, chuck rosenberg? >> if you want to start with smart people i wouldn't start with me. >> please. >> there's a lot in the indictment that didn't surprise me we had been hearing for a long time it would be related to the hush money payments and therefore false entries on the books and records of the trump organization but there was fascinating detail in the accompanying statement of facts that the prosecutors filed yesterday. which shows a couple of things one their theory for elevating those false records and entries into felonies. violations of election law both state and federal. and the hint of a plot or plan to violate state tax law you also see the centrality not just of michael cohen to the scheme but also david pecker

and it's clear to me from reading the statement of facts -- i assume the prosecutors can prove or think they can prove everything in the statement of facts, that mr. pecker, who essential publishes the "national enquirer" is an important witness. because he had private conversations with trump and those conversations included the details of how these hush money payments were going to be made and what they were for what they were for was to protect mr. trump in the upcoming election. so some things were expected the felonies related to the false entries and the bookkeeping. but the centrality of mr. pecker, i think, puts a new gloss on this, and it's something i'm going to watch carefully going forward. >> so george conway, i am a child -- a product of the '80s so i must say, after this

indictment came out i thought about two pop cultural moments one "where's the beef" as far as the felony goes. and the second was -- well, the second one was -- see i forgot what it was. because the '80s it blurred -- oh, big. the scene in "big," i don't get it what's different from what we've been hearing all along and "the wall street journal" editorial page said for this to be a felony bragg needs a second crime. what is it bragg said i'm not sure what the second crime are, i don't have to tell you what the second crime is i talked to a lot of lawyers yesterday, none of them republicans, none of them trump supporters, and all of them saying this is a little thin what were your thoughts? >> i disagree in the following sense. they don't have to specify this early in the case which of the three possible theories of

liability could bump this up from a misdemeanor to a felony but secondly, i do think there are interesting factual issues raised by the statement of facts. but i don't see what the big deal is. why people are hand ringing so much about whether or not this is a misdemeanor or felony there's no question it was a crime under new york state law there's no question it was at a minimum a misdemeanor because he -- these books and records of the trump organization were false and they did not reflect the $130,000 was paid as hush money to a porn star and the rest of the money was paid to cover up -- to michael cohen to cover up the fact that they were paying hush money to a porn star. so it's illegal in new york state to falsify business records. it's that simple

if it's a mara misdemeanor, it' just a misdemeanor but the fact of the matter there's no dispute he committed a violation of law. >> is there a statute of limitations, though, if it's a misdemeanor. i thought he had to bump it up to a felony to get around the statute of limitations issue >> yes, there is an issue with the statute of limitations at the same time, though, he's still going to be able to have the opportunity to prove that it is a felony. and there are -- you know, he has these theories that could bump it up and i'm not sure why, at this point, people are worried about whether or not the charges were severe enough to justify an indictment this is a man who does not deserve any breaks on any laws in any ways.

he's absolutely -- you know, he's given everything, his entire history, he's not the person you want to give a break to he's the world's biggest scoff law at this point. >> if you look at the timeline here the next hearing is not until december prosecution has asked for a trial in january of 2024 that would fall right as primary and caucus season is beginning as donald trump runs for re-election. that may complicate things but we got the indictment, a look inside these 34 counts, and then later the district attorney, alvin bragg, came out and gave that press conference, released a statement of facts which kind of gave more of a narrative story of the case he hopes to lay out can you explain to our audience what the distinction is there, between the indictment itself and the statement of facts because there were things in the statement of facts that were not in the indictment. >> that's right. this is a quirky procedure that

i did not use or see in federal court but apparently it's rather common and straightforward in state court in new york. here's what happened, willie the indictment is a bare bones recitation of the charges that mr. trump allegedly violated i think george did a great job explaining even if it's misdemeanors it's a a violation of new york state law. when we add detail in a federal indictment we sometimes call it a speaking indictment. it's not just the bare bones but it's the meat on the bones, how the crime was committed, who committed the crime, how the money flowed, things people said to aif hffection wait the crime. it's a road map, if you will it explains to people who care enough to read both documents

how the government intends to prove the allegations that are laid out in the indictment as a road map, it's a clear map to conviction. it doesn't mean the case won't be argued by mr. trump's attorneys and in the coming months but that road map, statement of facts tells us how they intend to prove the charges in the indictment read it and you can understand the theory of the prosecution's case. >> the judge presiding over former president trump's case is warning against any statements or social media posts that could incite supporters since news broke that trump would be indicted he's posted on his

social media site about the case calling district attorney alvin bragg a, quote, degenerate ps psychopath asking his supporters to protest. prosecutors raised the comments to the judge to get a bid to get an order to prevent trump from posting on social media. the judge did not rule on that request but advised trump from making statements that are likely to incite violence or civil unrest and avoid rhetoric that could hurt the rule of law. just hours after that, the former president went on an extended tirade while addressing his supporters at mar-a-lago trump attacked the judge, calling him a trump-hating judge with a trump-hating wife he called district attorney

alvin bragg a criminal, who should be prosecuted, or at the very least resign. trump also went after special counsel jack smith calling him a lunatic and bomb thrower who is threatening people every day through his representatives and their threatening jail terms and the former president called former new york attorney general, leticia james a racist in reverse lovely you were saying you don't know what bumps this up to a felony, i think from my perspective we're looking at this as a potential crime that was committed no matter what the crime, no matter how big, how serious the crime is, trump has done a great job of desensitizing the public telling people he was going to be arrested when he wasn't going to be arrested. drumming up 24 hour coverage so

by the time it happens everyone has heard everything and we've been hearing about this case for years. alvin bragg said there was more evidence he didn't have to share exactly what that was. but my question to you is, no one is saying trump didn't do this i don't even hear trump saying that so again, the public politically desensitized to just how, you know, unseemly it might be for a president to pay off a porn star to affect the election of keep his wife from finding out about it who knows what it was. but what are the potentials that could play out here if a crime, indeed, was committed? >> he is very much capable of talking himself into more trouble. you've seen this from the very beginning of his presidential career

when he basically took an investigation about whether or not the russians tried to interfere with the 2016 election and made that investigation, essentially, all about him and his desire and attempts to obstruct that investigation. there was a several-hundred page report issues by special counsel robert mueller and one half was devoted to trump's efforts to derail the investigation he is perfectly capable of committing crimes, felonies, to avoid nothing, which was probably what he had done before he started trying to obstruct the mueller investigation. he certainly -- he's willing to try to commit crimes to avoid being convicted of a misdemeanor. it's just that -- he just -- he doesn't know when to stop. >> and speaking of not knowing when to stop john heileman i thought it was fascinating

yesterday, every democrat -- people will get mad at me, i'm good with it every democrat i talked to, every lawyer, da, i was making calls through the afternoon, they were all disappointed by bragg's -- by the actual indictment itself. they were all disappointed with the charging papers and were saying so. so, you know, advantage trump. disadvantage desantis and the entire republican field. if donald trump was sane, if we were rational, he would have said i'm going to go to bed with the win. but as we all know, donald trump can't keep his mouth shut. he goes out, i will just say, he messes the bed in a stupendous way last night he could have used that speech

to say you know what, they treated me bad, this, that, the other, just like what happens to you when they treat you bad doing a, b, c, the system is rigged instead, which was all these personal grievances, went all over the place, scatter shot and by the end of the speech ron desantis had to be feeling great. going, well, he's always going to be him. because by the end, yeah, that guy -- that guy will never be president again. he took this advantage a lot of people thought he had and completely blew it with that crazy display last night at mar-a-lago >> i don't know, joe, whether he completely blew it in the sense that all the things we've heard from him last night are things we heard before. and things that -- if you believe that trump's power resides in his ability to continue to have the loyalty of

the maga base and that's a large enough chunk of the party to make him the front runner, the favorite, main the nominee of the party. i'm not sure he did anything to alienate the voters last night if you have run against trump and you're making the case to the other part of the party, the establishment part of the party, the never trumpers, maybe trumpers, anyone looking to leave trump. you have an object lesson, this is what you get if we stick with donald trump, even the day the judge told him to watch it, to simmer down, to not say these inflammatory things, to not attack this d.a. the courts, the justice system, don't go down the path you've been on. admonished him in the court there might be consequences. he did the same thing. if i'm ron desantis and i'm trying to appeal to the carl

robe donors of the world, the growth people, you have a strong -- this guy is never going to learn most people i think know that. i think most of the people know that but if you're able to reinforce the notion what a danger trump is if he becomes the nominee as a potential loser, i think the main thing it's associating up is the coming clash between this judge and donald trump where everybody has to realize now, the next time we see anything about this case is december. we'll be right on the brink of republicans starting to vote in the early part of 2024 they'll walk in in the months leading up to that hearing, donald trump is going to be doing this over and over again >> yeah, just the beginning. >> how long will the judge tolerate it? he's the former president, the running candidate, i'm going to give him a wide birth, i can't shut that man down and throw him

in jail for defending himself but i can't have him inciting violence out there so what's the moment between now and then when the judge we saw yesterday starts to limit trump's speech in the ways that roger stone saw his speech limited? when does that come, what's the moment how far does donald trump have to go? because donald trump with a contempt citation, donald trump could be thrown in jail if he violated a gag order those are all the coming questions and they're going to hang large over the politics and the nomination fight in the back part of the year. >> the line was drawn yesterday and it was crossed repeatedly, even when the judge was saying that to him. donald trump's boys were sending out pictures of the judge's daughter and sending that all over the internet. obviously we know that's to intimidate her and to get threats to rise up against her

we've seen, this is how trump world works. we've seen it time and again i've seen it personally. they knew exactly what they were doing. but then on top of that, go one statement after another attacking the judge, his wife, attacking the children, attacking all the other prosecutors, attacking the d.a. saying things that would lead to, again, the possibility of violence, of threats i guarantee you, all those people are facing an increase of security problems this morning and they knew exactly what they were doing i would say the line has already been crossed and any judge. i just got to say we're all talking about no man is above the law. the trump people are saying oh, they're doing things to donald trump they'd never do to anybody. that's such a lie. they've given him a wide birth already. any judge -- if any defendant i took into any court in

pensacola, florida, in state or federal court there, had done one-tenth of this, the judge would have already brought the hammer down. he would say do it again i'm going to find you in contempt of court and you're staying in the county jail tonight. do you understand? if you don't understand, counsel do you want to explain to your client, one more false move and you're going to jail tonight then i'll let you out of jail but you do it again i'll send you to jail for a week that would happen in any case anywhere in america. so this thing about somehow donald trump is being treated worse than anybody else. i wish i could say what that is. i would say it's just rank horse manure willie, let's talk quickly about the impact of donald trump's speech last night. donald trump has his speech, again legal analysts think he has the political advantage at

least because these documents weren't as strong as everybody thought they were going to be. he goes out and gives that speech what states does he have to win to be president? pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. what was going on during that speech there was a landslide victory for democrats, for liberals, for the left in the most -- we said it yesterday, and i would have come on the show this morning if the conservative had won, i would have said this is great news for republicans, great news for trump. bad news for democrats instead, just like kansas in 2022, this was a massive win for democrats. another loss for donald trump. so the craziness in the courtroom in mar-a-lago is connected to the democrats' massive win, historic win in wisconsin. and again, these two things,

they don't go together donald trump is unelectable in wisconsin. and last night basically telling a judge to go to hell. attacking his daughter attacking his wife attacking him. attacking the d.a. doing all of this, yeah, the maga people are still going to be there but the independents, 62% of which think he needs to be indicted that's going to be 63%, then 65%, then 70%. yesterday was -- could have been a better day for donald trump, was a horrible day for him politically. horrible. >> you know, on your first point about threatening the judge and talking about the jury and everything else, if you are a mobster in manhattan you start threatening judges you go to jail it's the way the system works. he shouldn't get a pass on that

either we'll dig into the wisconsin story in a moment. it's not just the liberal judge winning that now and there's impacts on abortion and gerrymandering and security of elections, by the way but we'll dig into, and kornacki is going to be here the erosion of republican support in counties where they have been dominant where mitt romney was winning by 30 points down to single digits or the teens in some cases so no question that the spectacle we saw last night at mar-a-lago and seven years, is having an impact on the way people vote in those important elections. back to last night just a little bit jonathan lemire. there are many and we both probably talked to some people who said, this is a little thin on donald trump. i'm not sure if there's a conviction in there, but when -- one put it to me this way. onto georgia where there is so much more ahead for donald trump, and this really is just

the tip of the iceberg what is your sense of the concern inside the -- the genuine concern inside the trump campaign >> inside the trump campaign they were thrilled with yesterday. >> yesterday. >> yes yesterday. let's be clear on that people thought there would be more there was speculation, there was more unknown in this indictment. that may be coming so we have to watch for that but at least yesterday people felt it was underwhelming. and we saw that trump -- we knew this would happen -- whipping up supporters about this thing in manhattan. it was a sparsely attended protest outside the courthouse, i was down there, went by it but it was fund-raising, they raised a lot of money, they think this will be helpful in the republican primary he's dominating the newsscape as he often does there's more to come the political dynamic is such

that we know that wisconsin is a great example. another moment where republicans who tethered themselves to trump have taken a loss in a key battleground state but new york is the opening act. there are other cases coming, georgia in a matter of weeks and special counsel jack smith who trump suggests that's not his real name, a new talking point he's using an alias. he has the documents and january 6th. this is all on the horizon that can't be good for trump or republicans. >> it's only going to get worse. the walls are closing in on this man. and if you think maybe this wasn't a felony that was charged yesterday, there were no felonies charged yesterday we have felonies coming. we've seen the news about what smith is investigating that his own people -- that trump's own people have basically documented how trump may have looked at these

documents after they were requested by the justice department and they move them around you know, he's probably -- if half of what we know, what we learned about that case is true, he's dead to rights. those are felonies under the espionage act. it's only going to get worse for him. i think the -- it's going to continue to help him among the republican base. and yes, they can -- i guess they can say at mar-a-lago they can say, this is great look at the money coming in. but absolutely, it's basically you're taking the republican party and you're going to boil it down to a group of people that most people can't stand and that would include -- you know, this is a party, this really is becoming the party of donald trump and marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz and all these people, boebert. what are these people doing? and the thing about trump, the

whole grievance mentality, as a crazy narcissist he loves playing with these grievances and he loves using them to connect to the republican base most people don't care about his problems they care about other things they care about what the people who showed up in wisconsin cared about last night you know, whether it's abortion or whether it's redistricting or whether about just their lives generally, they don't want to hear about donald trump's agree va trump's grievances they don't want to vote for a party that's all about donald trump's grievances. >> this is why they keep losing. we've gone through the years they lost, let's add 2023 because again this wisconsin court judicial election. it's hard to over state how important it is. i will also say just as a

marker, it is so much like kansas in 2022, where you had an off year, off election day election and the democrats just so out mobilized republicans. that happened again here in 2023 so it's really striking. i want to add, also, the documents case, this is not speculation. the documents case just keeps getting worse every single day for donald trump when you have a judge that's actually piercing the attorney/client privilege because it's, quote, likely a crime was committed in that interaction. that speaks volumes. jack smith has people on the inside that are talking about donald trump, about him browsing through documents after they had lied and said they returned the documents. all of this adds up, mika, so that case, the georgia case -- that happened two and a half

years ago. i'm not exactly sure what they're waiting for in fulton county i don't know maybe till after the next election it's baffling to me, two and a half years and still -- you know, they have a grand jury, somebody goes around, talks a little bit, and no movement in georgia. it's just baffling but this case yesterday, though, you and i talked a lot about this last night. >> yeah. >> i thought that it wasn't as strong as i think a lot of people thought it was going to be certainly wasn't as strong as jack smith what he's goit going with the documents case. i would not want to be on that guy's planet in the "star wars" show what did you think you believe it's very strong >> i think there's two things going on there's the story of donald trump and his presidency, which we've been covering for how many

years now? >> too long. >> and yesterday was a really big moment he was arraigned he's a criminal defendant. but more it was a big moment for president donald trump who had to walk out of the car alone, into the courthouse alone. weird awkward moment with the secret service during what would be his processing and then arraignment. and that drive to the courthouse wasn't fun for him it might have been fun leaving mar-a-lago with a bunch of guys with trump flags lining the streets. but in new york city marjorie taylor greene tried to have a trump rally and was drowned out. what he saw driving to the courthouse was lines of people holding out their phones, trying to look in the car and signs that said no man is above the law and finally, and other things i can't say on the air. that probably was a grim drive for him. i'm just ascertaining at this point. walking in there, the report is

he walked down the aisle slowly and walked down. we all saw the picture of him in the courtroom looking grim, stone faced, and exhausted and for the first time possibly in his life, donald trump heard and was presented with, some accountability not just possible crimes that he committed, the 34 felony counts against him. but he was presented with his behavior before a judge. threatening the lives of american citizens. threatening death and destruction, threatening world war iii, he was not allowed to really speak back in any strong way. he was presented with what he has done, what he has said, and what it could mean to this case. and yes, some people may not see this case as big as perhaps the january 6th investigation, the mar-a-lago documents investigation, the georgia case. but in a way, this case, this

smaller case bookends what could be an incredible legal journey for donald trump an incredible journey through accountability and chuck rosenberg, it's starting and ending with sleazy deals but what other legal experiences like this might trump be facing in the coming months >> right and mika, by the way, i think that's a really good capitulation of what's going on. i don't think of this new york case as either weak or trivial think about the first thing that george conway said this morning. the core of this case is strong. the sccore of this case includes 34 false entries of business records in the trump organization maybe folks were disappointed there wasn't something else and that something else wasn't enormous but the core of the case is strong and there's a lot of legal

criminal jeopardy for mr. trump. i agree that the mar-a-lago case could be very impactful. and not necessarily the mishandling of classified documents although that remains a possibility. but the obstruction of that investigation. remember, when the fbi executed its search warrant at mar-a-lago one of the predicate offenses mentioned in the affidavit for the warrant was the obstruction of the investigation incredibly important fact so it's not entirely new to the fbi. it's not entirely new to us. but you can see pre isisly where they're going. it may sound cliched mika because we say it's always the cover up but you know what, it's always the cover up in this case it was a cover up of the mishandling of the documents. so i don't know what's going to happen in georgia.

nor do i know what jack smith -- if that's his real name -- is going to do. but it's something that's part of the investigation and something we should watch closely. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump had one small legal win. stormy daniels has to pay his legal fees from a defamation case she brought how fox news reacted to that plus liberals have won control and this could be the big story of the morning >> it is. >> in a consequential and closely watched race we'll get a live report from the battleground state alsoahead, we'll be joined by the u.s. ambassador to nato on the heels of finland joining the western alliance you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. >> how pretty.

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we have enough to splurge on catnip toys! i feel so accomplished. pet me please! great prices. happy pets. chewy. i wish that in a circumstance like this i would be able to concede to a worthy opponent but i do not have a worthy opponent to which i can concede. this was the most deeply deceitful, dishonorable, despicable campaign i have ever seen run for the courts. it was truly beneath contempt. >> do you see -- >> who is that >> you see, kids -- >> i thought that was a candidate. >> it is. >> they're supposed to be --

>> so kids here's the deal if you want to have a future in politics or elected office, when you lose -- i know what you've seen over the past five, six, seven years. but when you lose, you are gracious and actually, first of all, you should be gracious regardless of how ugly the race was because it's not bean bag as they say, it's hard ball and if you're going to step into a boxing ring, well, it's as i told my family for years, expect your head to get knocked off of you. that's the profession that you choose and elections can be awfully tough. but when it's over, it's over. and you graciously concede, regardless you find something to be gracious about and then you move on and as david wrote in the bill clinton book after he lost his race for governor and the next

morning he was out shaking hands and people said the poor guy doesn't even realize he lost and somebody laughed in the campaign office, no, you don't understand, he's already running for the next election. i've seen this time and time and time again the people who are gracious, even after losing a tough, personal, bitter race, those are the people you see in public service for the rest of their lives. because they understand it's not about the last election they just lost. it's about the one that's coming up in two or four years. but right there, i don't -- i hope that dan kelly felt good about himself after that speech because nobody else felt good about him. >> i don't think he felt good. >> by the way, i understand how personal this stuff can be you know, when i campaigned, a lot of really personal false attacks. but you know what, you just smile and you keep on. you walk through it.

because that happens in politics sometimes. but man, you don't end -- i've had friends that have ended that way. and they never get elected again. their career is over. >> he went on to say wisconsin voted for what he called the rule of janet but that's their choice to make he said that's former wisconsin state supreme court justice, dan kelly. that was his concession speech last night and it was janet who defeated the conservative in the most expensive race in history. giving liberals control of the high court for the first time in 15 years the victory allows the court's new liberal majority to likely determine a number of pivotal issues let's go live to milwaukee where we find nbc news correspondent shaq shaquille brewster a long expensive race, shaq,

with the progressive winning what does it mean for wisconsin? >> it means a lot. i was told there was no concession call from dan kelly to janet that's not only an extension of the vicious, nasty campaign you saw the last couple of months here in wisconsin but also a reflection of the states in this race this is a court at the center of some truly controversial rulings in the last couple years they struck down covid restrictions months into the pandemic eliminated drop boxes after the 2020 election. >> it also is a court that sided with republican gerrymandered maps maps experts called the most gerrymandered in the country it sided with those for legislatively and state seats. this is a court animating the democratic base and for liberals to take over the court for the first time in 15 years it's a

seismic shift. i want you to hear what we heard from the candidates. >> too muany tried to turn over the will of the people tonight's results show people believe in the democratic process. >> my opponent is a serial liar. she has disregarded judicial ethics she's demeaned the judiciary with her behavior and this is the future we have to look forward to in wisconsin. >> reporter: and this is a race that i mentioned was extremely contentious. the issue talked about the most when i talked to voters at polling locations across the state was the issue of abortion. you saw it in the campaign ads this is a state where abortion is nearly completely banned after the overturning of roe because of an 1849 abortion ban on the books that is likely to come before the newly liberal majority court

and that's something that voters were celebrating party last nig. she ran a unique campaign. she said she wouldn't pre-judge any case before the court. she wanted wisconsin voters to know her values and one of those that she believed in a woman's right to choose. that's why you have the outrage from dan kelly and other conservatives. they believe she mpoliticized th race for dan kelly saying if dan kelly won there would be no hope for women in this state. >> thank you so much. back to the point you made earlier. there are counties around milwaukee that decides who wins statewide, whether it's a supreme court race or a presidential race, again massive erosion of republican voters in some of them stayed home perhaps but she made up a lot of ground

just over the last couple of years but if you look over the scope of a decade. places i said mitt romney won by 30 points. she came close to winning losing by only 5 points in one of those counties. >> we keep hearing the self-righteousness from this conservative candidate his ads against her were extraordinarily nasty. they were tough going both ways. so don't whine if you go into the boxing match and you're throwing hay makers for months, don't whine when it lands on you i want to follow up, john heileman with what willie said again, all eyes are on the d.a. in manhattan, on donald trump. i get it but something much bigger happened last night in wisconsin. and it's part of a trend and it is a trend that's

growing. i think we're going to find the overturning of roe v. wade to be a singular moment in 21st century politics in that it has shifted the dynamic in a dramatic way from kansas to wisconsin to michigan to you name it. but just think about this. donald trump won in 2016 because he was able to crack that blue wall that democrats had in the electoral college in wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania and a lot of people were considering that to be white, working class paradise for republican candidates. they were going to keep winning up there but since roe has been overturned, think about it michigan, democrats took over the entire state they took over the entire state. not even close listen, i talked to democrats a

month beforehand, they were hoping they could pick up a couple of seats here, there in michigan i said what about pennsylvania we have no chance of winning the assembly or anything in pennsylvania they made massive gains. they won one of the chambers they won the governorship there, the governorship in michigan, they won the governorship in wisconsin, and now they have done what i think out of all of those things is the most important thing for looking through american democracy and actual legitimacy of democratic elections, they've taken back the supreme court there that has the -- that's elections. they've taken back the supreme court there that has the -- ha approved the most gerrymandered

districts in america a lot harder to steal elections in wisconsin >> look, to step back what you were talking about a second ago, obviously in courtroom and the findings of the facts that the d.a. laid out, it was a tour back to 2016 election and the secret history that most people didn't was going on between pecker and trump, 2016 is very much on all of our minds now your point is the right, donald trump knocked the wall down in that cycle largely because of his white and rural workers. and what's happened since then has been gradually democrats finding a way back towards competitiveness in those places. joe biden winning all three of

those states in 2020, what made him president along the narrow victories in georgia and arizona. this is really staggering, you can't say it enough. gretchen whitmer was supposed to be toast year out. the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, she not only got reelected, they all got all elected. they put abortion rights at the center of the michigan race in 2022 made it a referendum essentially on what the court has done and michigan is now, you know, under total democratic control in a way it hasn't been really ever in modern history. pennsylvania, why john fetterman win that race? lot of things wrong with dr. oz. again, the white working class

vote that went for john fetterman, why, this white working class vote turned out very animated on this issue of abortion they're not culturally conservative when it comes to abortion rights when it comes to their daughters. if the blue wall is rebuilt now and potentially stronger in some ways because of things that trump has done the way the republican party has drifted the election denial and the bulwark in those states, if that's the case where democrats dominate those three states

>> if democrats win those three states, it's hard for a republican to find their way to 70 and you look at a couple of things that are happening here, willy, just speak very poorly for the future of the republican party, we've already talked about donald trump last night the juxtaposition of donald trump's speech and the results in wisconsin again, trump getting more extreme, more radical moving further away in tone and in temperament, in language, in everything, the guy who said who wanted to threaten the constitution and threaten judges' family members brings them out and attacks them then you actually have marjorie taylor greene up in new york as the face of the republican party. marjorie taylor greene and all the other extremists in the house, those are the people who

get out there along with donald trump the most, that's not doing them any favors in these states who are starting to rebuild that blue wall against republicans, because of donald trump. this is all because of donald trump. not saying a reasonable, ra rational republican couldn't go in tomorrow and win those states donald trump can't just can't finally, republicans, you just wonder who in the republican party in wisconsin thought, you know, we're going to be able to win this supporting an abortion law that was put on the books in wisconsin when zachary taylor was president in 1849. this is like a parody of the republican party, they don't understand the devastating the overturning of 49-year right for

women has been to their electoral prospects. we talked about gun safety the majority of the nra support this, but it's the same here when you have a lot of republicans who identify as pro-life, suddenly going, i want my daughter to be arrested for trying to go to another state. i don't want to elect somebody who's saying 14-year-old daughter getting raped by her uncle -- >> florida just did it at six weeks. many don't know you're pregnant at six weeks. >> good luck explaining ron desantis when you get outside of the state of florida it's all catching up with them in these states they have to win. >> you'd think they'd learn. to say, oh, that didn't work, oh, that continues not to work you but in many cases they seem

to be boring in deeper george, as you look at the implications of wisconsin last night specifically for abortion, also by the way, for presidential elections, this guy dan kelly who was running according to testimony from the former republican state chairman to the house select committee kelly participated in this idea of fake electors in 2020 to snap the election how important is this win for liberal justice? >> i think it's what you all have been saying is exactly right, the republican party is boiling itself down to appeal to a very small piece of electorate it's not going to cut it in american politics in generally, particularly when the changing

the demographics of the country. we talked about florida, fl florida, as florida ages it's not going to be quite the same as it is today and as people move from other places to texas for example, texas is going to be the same. the republicans have to figure out a new way -- i mean, if the republican party to survive it has to back up a littlened try to figure out what appeals to 60% of the population instead of 30% of the population and it's not really capable of doing that anymore because it's inward looking. the republican party is inward looking. it refuses to look itself in the mirror they refuse to, you know, surrender to reality and try to figure out how to win elections but instead they're wedded to appealing to a small group of people to win those primaries and then for those that follow.

>> george conway and john heilman, thank you very much for being on today. still ahead, former attorney general bill barr makes a prediction about the new lawyer on trump's legal team. we'll play that for you, what he said. plus, we'll take a look at the what street journal says is missing from the trump indictment. and the world's largest military alliance just got bigger we'll speak with the u.s. ambassador to nato about the addition of finland. "morning joe" is coming right back ♪ ughh - kayak. search one and done. and this is ready to go online! any questions? yeah, i got one: how about the best network imaginable? can someone invent that? that's what we do here. quick informal survey. who wants their internet to work pretty much everywhere? thought so.

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democrat district attorney in atlanta who's doing everything in her power to indict me over an absolutely perfect phone call day after day over the boxes hoax, you know the boxes hoax as we call it, letitia james vowed to use every law we have this jack smith lunatic threatening people every single

day. charging a former president of the united states for the first time in history. >> wow, donald trump laying out the many legal issues he's facing while airing his grievances in a kind of a low-key way last night at mar-a-lago we'll dig into what's in the manhattan indictment including the allegations of the former national enquirer. welcome back jonathan lemire is still with us we have mike barnicle and michael field joins us donald trump, the first president of the united states to be impeached twice. is now the first former u.s. president to be criminally charged. trump was placed under arrest in new york city yesterday after manhattan district attorney

alvin bragg revived a case that many thought was dead, it centers around the payment the former president allegedly made to porn star stormy daniels in 2016 to keep her silence about a past sexual encounter she claims they had trump has repeatedly denied the liaison and the payment. the former president pleaded not guilty to 34 counts of falsifying business records. after he concocting a scheme of sup pressing stories before the election in 2016 the judge also warned both sides against escalating violent rhetoric following a series of social media posts by trump targeting those involved in the

case >> yet, michael steele, you had donald trump, while trump was in the courtroom, you had donald trump's sons sending out pictures of the judge's daughter, obviously meant to intimidate and then you had donald trump attacking the judge, attacking his wife, attacking the d.a., attacking everybody, again, you know, for anybody else, in front of any other judge the judge would have cracked the whip on any defendant, if i were in front of a judge in northwest florida it would have been really ugly really fast and i would have been in jail just like that. so these people whining about donald trump, you know, that he's being treated differently, yeah he is in a lot of ways. judges are being a lot more

lenient than on anyone else. >> it is i think there's that deference for the presidency at least, you know the former president having him in front of you. i think this is going to wear thin on this court at this judge, he did make note of some rhetoric that's already out there and so, this was just a, you know, an arraignment i don't think you'll see this judge tolerating this in a trial, particularly now that as you noted, joe, you've got others in trump's orbit, his sons and his minnons pushing stuff out there about the judge's family i'm going to see how this judge moves forward in proceedings with this particular defendant, trump, in front of him, as

opposed to a president trump and i think once we see how that shapes out, how much of a hammer this judge is prepared to bring down on trump beyond whatever evidence is brought forth that may lead to a conviction. >> we won't have another hearing until december the indictment details how according to prosecutors trump repeatedly falsified new york business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information during the 2016 presidential election from voters prosecutors said david pecker told trump's legal team that he would act, quote, as the eyes and ears of the 2016 election. in addition to facilitating the

alleged stormy daniels payment, the indictment accuses them of paying another woman to pay silent about allegations of sex with the former president, that's ex-playboy model karen mcdougal they even discussed the hush money scheme inside the oval office in 2016 d.a. alvin bragg spoke to reporters after donald trump was arraigned yesterday. >> donald trump was arraigned on a new york supreme court indictment, returned by a manhattan grand jury on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree under new york state law, it's a felony to falsify business records with intent to defraud and intent to conceal another crime. that's exactly what this case is about.

34 false statements made to cover up other crimes. >> these are felony crimes in new york state no matter who you are. we cannot and will not normalize serious criminal conduct the defendant repeatedly made false statements on new york business records he also caused others to make false statements >> let's bring in katherine christian, good morning to you both what's your assessment of the strength of the case against donald trump >> i have been pouring over the transcript of the indictment yesterday. it's very detailed you have 4 felony counts and each count is accusing mr. trump and he's nebt until proven

guilty of falsely writing a check, an invoice, a false entry into a ledger in order to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election. the district attorney's office also submitted a detailed statement of facts when i saw that statement i was like, why is there a statement of facts attached to this indictment i understand why they did that because it provides a road map of how mr. trump allegedly undermine -- or tried to undermine the 2016 election. it goes through details of the 2016 payment karen mcdougal and don't forget the doorman. this all went on before and in fact the election. >> so, that's an important distinction to make. the indictment itself with the accompanying statement of facts how does it figure into the case

that the d.a. will present to a jury >> that basically, you know the defense attorneys i was reading the transcript had a fit because the lead prosecutor went through all of the facts and they were saying this was not fair, opening statement at the trial, it basically, that's going to be their opening statement at the trial, they're allowed to do that, it was stated in public n open court, it was provided in court, so mr. bragg will not having any more detailed press conference about the facts in this case. professional responsibility prohibits him from doing that. but it's the road map, it goes through every detail the indictment is just charges and the legal elements and dates. it doesn't tell you what the facts are. when that was first released this is about stormy daniels then i get the statement of

facts then i get it. it's the new york state election law. it's also tax crimes it's also alleged false statements by a.i.m., they're relying on not only one theory, crimes, it's election law in new york state, it's tax crimes and it's also the a.i.m. false statements, so people may say this is not the crime of the century, not like the jack smith, his first trial was my se second it's not the special counsel case, but it's serious the manhattan d.a.'s office takes falsifying business records very seriously you can't just say he's former president let it slide over 100 times the manhattan

d.a.'s office has prosecuted this crime for falsifying business records in just the past year. >> if you're the defense attorney, what's your first move >> you'll argue there's no intent to defraud, to conceal crime, and it's, how can you have a federal crime they're going to as they should, just try to move every count of that indictment. >> what do you end up defending if you're the defense lawyer >> what they said yesterday outside of the court that this is an over-reach, that these crimes aren't legally sufficient because they're going to argue he had no intent to defraud, to commit another crime, the argument he was trying to protect melania and family, belied by the electelection

ing after it's over it will come out. with every good defense attorney does don't believe what you see, don't believe the documents and clearly they'll argue that mr. cohen isn't credible the argument for the prosecutor side he's credible because look at the documents. >> yeah, and multiple witnesses corroborating his testimony. a piece this morning titled what's missing in the trump indictment it writes part, a few surprises perhaps astonishment that mr. bragg's case looks even weaker than expected. here's the big question, where's the second crime recalled that falsifying business records is a misdemeanor in new york, a felony only if the books were cooked with an intent to commit another crime to aid or conceal the commission thereof

when mr. trump worked out this reimbursement arrangement with mr. cohen what other crime was he allegedly trying to cover up? this case brought against any defendant not named donald trump. it's hard to avoid answering no. >> the other side, in "the new york times" titled we finally know the case against mr. trump and it's strong. they write in part, not novel or weak about this case the charge of creating false financial records is brought by mr. bragg and other d.a.s in particular, to cover up campaign finance violations that's exactly what mr. trump stands accused of. the judge and jury will make the ultimate determination but they'll be far from the first to

consider this question the answer usually is guilty verdict. whatever happens next, mr. trump can't argue that he's being single out for unprecedented theory of prosecution. >> just pulling out to 20,000 feet, katherine, you know, you look at the core of this case, it's a case, it's a crime, there are potential multiple crimes here that have been committed and this former president was arraigned and it was the crimes, correct me if i am wrong, to influence the outcome of the 2016 election, and if all the cases bear out against him he'll have the beginning of his presidency and the end of his presidency with legal cases against him accusing him of trying to influence or change the outcome of an election

>> yes. >> exactly in georgia, that d.a. hasn't presented that case to grand jury yet, that's an election interference case. one could argue he has a pattern of trying to do that certainly, this case, you know, proceeds the georgia case. it was at the beginning of his election and then he ended it with allegedly trying to undermine the georgia election, so >> yeah, definitely a pattern there. dave, you're an active prosecutor right now for palm beach county where the defendant resides in the new york case. i'm curious would you have brought this case? >> good morning, joe well, i'm not privy to all of the information that alvin bragg has. i was a little surprised that there were no surprises in this indict pt. i thought perhaps that there would be some financial fraud

allegations here, more serious, didn't happen. this is all about the hush money payments and that's one i rank this 4 out of 4 out of the potential cases against donald trump. the first is mar-a-lago documents case, two, fulton county donald trump was saved at that time because he was a sitting president but it's not an easy case, it's only a misdemeanor to falsify business records, it rises to a felony if you can attach to another crime. katherine, to her credit mentioned a few possibilities. it would have been valuable in my mind for the district attorney to set out for specifically the second crime, this is high-profile politically charged case, better for the public to see what's going on

here i'd rate it incomplete they'll get a more detailed of itemization of charges yesterday no cameras in the courtroom and there was an indictment that was a bit opaqued, not a big day for transparency but a big day for equal justice under the law. >> dave, we know the judge that the next hearing will be december, proposed trial start date is january. trump's team want to push it back deep into 2024 as donald trump is running for president two questions, what time line could we be looking at and then secondly, a lot of chatter yesterday even if he were to be convicted wouldn't serve any prison time, do you agree with that or not >> well, each count can get up

to four years in state prison. i don't know what he scores on new york law he's more likely to face prison time based on the federal charges which i think are forthcoming in mar-a-lago documents and january 6th. 4 out of 4 this is not a weak case, as far as the time line it's in trump's benefit to push this out as far as possible. the next hearing he'll appear at is in december this is going to taint the pool of goodwill of voters i think by that point by december, a month from now, a lot of this is going to be washed away. i think fulton is going to come next, followed by jack smith and merrick garland on the strongest cases of all it's not going to be the last one.

>> katherine, you know the defense of donald trump and his spotters is, this is an active d.a. who's intervening in a presidential election. this is an old case from 2016, et cetera, et cetera what's your sense maybe even talking to some of your old colleagues there or just your personal sense of how the d.a.'s office weighed bringing this case because of the historic nature and it does involve someone running for president again. >> i think they do this originated with d.a. vance who i used to work for, so this has been going on for three years. bragg wanted to take a look at it and made sure everything was there. as he said yesterday you can't normalize criminal conduct you can't say it's okay for a former president and it's not okay for a regular businessman

>> in fact, alvin bragg, criticized by some people for not moving faster on these charges. i'm curious what would happen to defendant x or y if he/she were making the kind of threats we're seeing right now in lower manhattan? >> i'm trying to think the 30 years i was in that office the only time defendants said crazy things were the ones who had mental health issues i wouldn't be too hard on judge meschan. he's very patient. i'm not issuing a gag order at this time and then he went on to say to both sides, particularly the defendant, speak to your witnesses, speak to your client.

refrain from making statements that cause civil unrest. that will affect the safety of people that was his way of saying, okay, you've been very somber and reserved here in court, mr. trump, then he left, went down to florida and start up again. so what you do the next date is in december, if i were the prosecutor, i'm not, they call it to request to advance the case, and then then you say, your honor, here's some videos of what mr. trump has been saying at this time we're now asking for the extraordinary thing that has never -- has rarely happened in new york state court, a gag order. because at that time you want the order because then if he goes out again and violates it then it's criminal contempt. i think the judge was very smart

to just, you know, i'm giving you a chance, and then it's like, i gave him a chance and then he said, book you, when he went down to florida i predict that there will be a request to advance the case, have it back on the calendar to make an argument of why there should be a gag order. >> so great to have your perspective on this. thank you for being here dave, thanks to you as well. house speaker mccarthy is warning the manhattan direct attorney alvin bragg could face a congressional investigation in the wake of donald trump's indictment after yesterday's arraignment mccarthy tweeted in part, alvin bragg is attempting to interfere in our democratic process, bragg's weaponization

of the federal justice process will be held accountable by congress meanwhile, republican senator lindsey graham seemed to be fighting back tears -- >> he's not doing well >> he's always crying. take a look. >> i'm sorry i'm so upset. please help president trump, if you can afford 5, 10 bucks, just pray, make sure you vote as early as you can in your state, don't risk anything anymore. vote as soon as you can. pray for this country. pray for this president. if you get any money to give, give it. lin lindseygraham.com. it doesn't go to me it goes to helping this president and taking back the senate. >> my god. >> all over the world people are suffering. listen, michael steele, he's even looking more like a 1990

televangelist. jesus is going to take me home some of that jimmy, the crying going on there he looks a lot like -- he's slowly morphing into jim bakker. and talking more and more like -- >> more trump going. >> trump is different now. >> but, michael, i don't want to be distracted by the shiny televangelist in front of me let's talk about kevin mccarthy. you're one of the most successful rnc chairmen in the

country. you look at this party and you got there's house speaker right now, i mean these are the same people that ignored federal subpoenas. they ignored subpoenas from congress itself and now they're talking about conducting their own investigations of an independent elected district attorney outside of their jurisdiction. man, it's crazy town there, isn't it >> it is it is. it's the weaponization of government folks, understand everything coming out of their mouths around weaponization and all of this stuff is projection it's projection. it's what we know what they would do because they're doing it and the reality of it is, when you don't have anything else that's your go-to.

you're so beholden you just showed televangelist lindsey hawking for donald trump. just pray, just send us money, pray, send us more money and pray it's so, so ridiculous, so embarrassing so embarrassing that this is what the leadership of the republican party has become. some two-bit televangelist hawking for donald trump not even good. >> they're not even good again, we need to have that gofundme page for bad acting republicans, we get sarah mclachlan singing michael.

>> come back and sing, joe >> they got to convict choir maybe they get the singing senators the funny thing is, lindsey and others, oh, donald trump send it to lindseygraham.com this is like all those people donating to herschel walker. it's all a scam. michael, listen, i know you got to go. i hope you can stay one more segment. >> i'm here. >> this next -- the next segment we'll be talking about what i think is a much bigger story than the donald trump indictment in the long run. when you -- when you were running the rnc, you were -- you were the first to figure out how to crack the blue wall, right, everybody talked about the blue wall, the electoral college the

democrats had. you figured it out and what started happening after that is republicans started figuring out how to nail down because of your work, wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania that's been collapsing i'd love to get your take on what happened in wisconsin last night after the break. >> oh, yeah. >> i guess you'd agree with me that's a massive, massive story with huge political implications, right? >> it is, absolutely there's a little sleepy one in florida. that's also a massive story around the issue of guns which will become really problematic in this upcoming cycle >> okay. >> as joe said, liberals have gained control of wisconsin's supreme court after that high-stakes election we break down the results of what that means for that battleground state. we'll be joined by chicago mayor-elect brandon johnson on

the heels of his win last night. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i'm sorry i'm so upset please help donald trump make sure you vote as early as you can in your state. don't risk anything anymore. vote as soon as you can. pray for this country. pray for this president. if you got any money to give, give it. lindseygraham.com, it doesn't go to me it goes to helping this president in taking back the senate >> i would ask that your precious -- ♪ in the arms of the angels ♪ ♪ far away from here ♪

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to hard-working muscles and joints, for all-day energy. today's results mean two very important and special things first it means that wisconsin voters have made their voices heard. they've chosen the reject partisan extremism in this state. and second, it means our democracy will always prevail. >> i wish in a circumstance like this, i would be able to concede to a worthy opponent but i do not have a worthy opponent to which i can concede.

this was the most deeply deceitful, dishonorable, despikele campaign i have ever seen run for the courts. it was truly beneath contempt. >> he said the most deeply, horrible, that, that, that campaign i have ever seen. they zmr oh, my gosh. >> you can't run a nasty campaign he ran and be shocked when somebody responds he has to be shocked, because democrats -- in pre-trump, we'd laugh, it's just to easy to beat them now, they've learned to punch back and guys like this, who feel entitled to be able to

attack and lie and slander people and not have them push back, he suddenly shocked. he's suddenly shocked. right-wing privilege i can yell and scream and i can call other people snowflakes and say they're triggered and i attack them and be vicious, but if he's attacked, if the same thing goes the other way he suddenly turns into a snowflake. let's give him some safe space >> for the first time in 15 years. >> if you climb in the boxing ring don't be shocked when they punch you back nbc news projects that milwaukee county judge janet protasiewicz defeated former state supreme court justice dan kelly. the contest received national attention because of the pivotal

issues the court is likely to decide, including the state's ban on abortion and it's gerrymandered legislation maps this is going to have far-reaching implications. >> michael, i know you're the same, one of these races it's l about the courts and that's great. it's going to change the courts. it's going change a lot of things in wisconsin. it's one of those races like kansas or in '78, prop 8 in california, it actually -- it shows you where the future is and i want you to stick around i'm so grateful that you stuck around for us. because you're the guy that helped build the strategy that tore down that blue wall across the industrial -- across the industrial midwest, and now you look at what happens since roe

got overturned, michigan completely blue now. pennsylvania, turning blue shocking even the most intense democratic activists wisconsin, now, evers win re-election, didn't expect that in 2022. and now the court for the first time, well, since you took over the rnc, for the first time the court is now controlled by people other than right-wing activists. >> yeah, there are number of factors that play into the making of moments like this. yes, candidates are a big part of it. but it's really in one sense, joe, how your opponents give you issuesened you've already touched on it. your ability to punch back on those ssues. your ability to defend against aggression on those issues or

defend bad positioning on those issues and how you're able to narrate a story and what helped in this race was not just the extremism of dan kelly, but it was also the way the public received the information and understanding that is critical and it's not something in the past democrats really paid that much attention to, they looked past how the voters actually felt about stuff because there was a presumption, i'm presenting a case and they'll get it that's not you it works in politics the big part of the strategy in 2010 was the ground game at the local level. pushing up what people were saying and having that reflected at the ballot box. and so that's what the democrats did here yeah, this race was ugly for a judgeship. lot of issues how both of these

candidates conducted themselves to sit on the bench. but the reality of it is, they figured out part of the solution here in pushing back against the aggression of a right-wing majority, taking that majority from them in a way that the voters were like, okay, we're okay giving it to you. >> election denying activities after the 2020 race. let's talk about something also much bigger. things happen slowly, quietly, not just one moment where we all wake up and go, wait a second, the entire paradigm of american politics has shifted what used to happen republicans would win working-class voters,

because democrats even though they may have had their financial best interest at hand, democrats lined up with them on social issues like -- republicans lined up with them more with issues like abortion, on guns, on lgbtq rights, over the last two years republicans have gotten so extreme, roe has been overturned, a 50-year right finally has republicans and pro-life people waking up, going, wait a second, i'm pro-life but i don't want my 14-year-old daughter to get arrested if we decide along with a minister and along with her doctor and psychiatrist after she's been raped by her uncle we don't them to force a birth.

you have republicans now out of step with america, on abortion certainly these swing states on guns we say it every day, 90% of americans want enhanced background checks. 85% want red flag laws the majority in most polls actually want to ban a military-style weapons you have republicans, again, they're the ones in the minority there. on lgbtq, we know, conservatives, a lot of liberals have some issues about -- we've had the big debate over trans-athletes that's settled in. 80% a man who transitioned after puberty should be able to compete against young girls, young women, that's settling in. even their approach there a lot of people are thinking, one, it's hateful, two it's too extreme, three, well, okay, i

understand there are three transathletes in the entire state of utah but really, ibut i'm kind of worried about gas prices, inflation, so now we got this paradigm shift. where suddenly you have republicans who are on the wrong side of these social issues in swing states and they're getting crushed because of it. >> and i think the piece that missed here, and when you have an extreme point of view about things is you think everyone should have that same point of view, so you're ready to force your extremism rhetorically, what the republicans are realizing, you can't force it legislatively and when you do there's a response from the l electorate kansas on the heels of dobbs

this election last night, again, not only ties into abortion but other issues of extremism. then what you see in florida with the governor in secret, in secret for all the bravado about guns and the rights and the second amendment, he took the chicken little way out and signed into law a bill that now allows con sealed carry without a permit you all can just do it if you get caught it's just a $25 fine if you used a false i.d. people don't like that they don't want that in their legislation. they don't want to be forced down that funnel they can listen to your rhetoric, but when you make the switch over to legislative action, which is what's happening in state legislators around the country, it loses it

political head and that's what you're seeing and that's why michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania are going to be so important, florida is not necessarily going to be important in terms of an electoral space because of the redness we say about the state but the ripple effect out of florida on the issue on guns, the abortion issue and the overarching extremism of the party legislatively of the party around the country that's going to be a hard sell for republican candidates going into 2024 joe, and i'm talking federal races. i'm now talking people re-evaluate a congressional legislatiure when they see the speaker give his power to a marjorie taylor greene, now we know what that looks like. it's going to be harder and harder for this party to put

together legislative wins, statewide, locally or federally. >> i mean, you look at those people, you mentioned you look at the face of the republican party right now, and it may play well in deep, deep read districts. it does not play well in swing districts and it's a problem you want to talk about extremism. in wisconsin, people in 2023 were living under an abortion ban that was written before there was even a transcontinental railway, written when zachary taylor was president, 1849. mika, people in wisconsin, republicans, independent, swing voters, what century are these people from? >> michael steele, thank you very much. >> thank you for staying with

us, michael. we appreciate you so much. >> no problem, buddy. kremlin calls finland's nato membership a threat to russia's security, warning it will be forced to take countermeasures the u.s. ambassador joins us to decision cuss the expansion of the western alliance. plus, amid ongoing scrutiny of artificial intelligence italy becomes the first western nation to ban chatgpt our next guest is a congressman who codes and he says a.i. freaks him out we'll speak with california's democrat ted lieu about the risks involved "morning joe" will be right back (fisher investments) never at fisher investments. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees.

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finland officially is nato's 31st member state. the country's flag was raised outside nato headquarters in

brussels yesterday the kremlin spokesperson called the membership an assault on russia's security saying, quote, this forces us to take counter measures in tactical and strategic terms. joining us now, ambassador to nato, julie smith. how significant is it that finland is a member of nato? and how significant is it how quickly this happened, just within the last year >> this is a big deal for the nato allies to see finland today sitting at the table as a full-fledged member is nothing short of remarkable, and now it's bringing real capacity, it's going to be a security provider they share our values. they also have incredibly capable military forces, combat aircraft, strong reserve forces. this is important. this is important for finland. this is important for

euro-atlantic security the person we have to thank for this is president putin, because of what putin did inside ukraine, the war he started there, that's what inspired hour friends in finland and sweden to pursue membership. we marked the moment yesterday and did raise the flag and they are sitting at the nato table today as a full-fledged member >> what signal did it send to putin when he began with the assumption the west would not care enough to stand up and coalesce and unite against russia not only has it done that, but as you point out, nato has now grown in its alliance? >> it's a clear signal to moscow and putin that basically intimidation and aggression don't work, and they don't block the alliance from moving forward with membership. in fact, the question of

enlargement rests between sweden and the alliance, and russia doesn't get a voice or a veto on questions of enlargement, and its finland's sovereign choice about whether or not it wants to join the alignment, and our hope is that we will see sweden sitting at the table in the not-too-distant future >> i wanted to follow-up on that, the idea of sweden, which at this point its candidacy has been blocked by the turkish president. when could it happen where sweden to join finland in the alliance >> you are right, the ratification process has moved quickly with 28 of the allies. we had two countries that had a

slower ratification process, and we are waiting for turkey and hungry to finish the process, and turkey has concerns as it relates to terrorism, and we have made an opportunity for the countries to come together and talk about the concerns and work through them the process, again, was completed with finland yesterday. we are encouraged by what we are hearing by allies around the table, by our friends in turkey and hungry we believe and we hope this process will be completed by the time nato has a comesummit later this summer in lithuania again, it's great news for euro-atlantic security, and great for those two countries to join the alliances and it's terrific for the united states because they are some of the closest allies in europe >> given the cohesion of the

alliance, and president biden brought it together, do you get the sense that because world war ii still hangs in the air over so much of europe that this helped propel this forward, this cohesion >> yeah, ultimately nato unity is its greatest strength what we have seen in the last year in its support for ukraine has been incredibly impressive some folks are trying to create the narrative that nato unity is cracking, but it's not cracking and it's rock solid, and secretary blinken is here right now sitting with the other foreign ministers from all of the 31 nations i can assure you that our support for ukraine, and also in our determination to protect

every inch of nato territory is still alive and well here. i know that finland was excited and looking forward to getting that article 5 commitment to ensure that nato would have its back we know for sweden that was important, too ultimately this war in ukraine has really fundamentally changed the landscape here in europe it really did inspire our friends in stockholm and helsinki to rethink that, and i am thrilled they are joining the alliance >> finland bringing with it an 832-mile border with russia. thank you for your time this morning, ambassador. we appreciate it >> thank you joining us, ted lieu of california, and he's part of the judiciary committee. your reaction to the news?

we knew this was coming, and what is the significance here of finland joining the alliance >> putin and trump wanted to weaken nato, and now the opposite has happened, we have a stronger and more unified larger nato, and so this is a good sign for nato, for the united states, and it's bad for russia. >> we have heard from a few voices, but it's not a majority in the congress saying we may re-evaluate our support for ukraine, and what is your sense from democrats and republicans after now more than a year in in our support for ukraine? >> last week we had a stupid hearing on the supposed blank check to ukraine, and the three

inspector generals testified that there was no blank check, they have been aggressionve in looking for fraud and today they have found none. >> you mentioned donald trump. obviously the nation is coming to grips that a former president has been charged with a crime. what are your concerns about the campaign to come >> look, any american who engage in 34 acts of falsifying business records would have been indicted donald trump is entitled to the presumption of instance in the court of law, and a judge and jury is going to determine if he's guilty and we should let that branch do its job without spwae interference, and that's the american way >> what happens to the funding >> we have funding through our

probations process, and that's good until this fall if speaker mccarthy can't get his caucus together, that funding will be at risk for next year hopefully we can come together and continue to fund ukraine a lot of that has to do with their maga extremists and whether speaker mccarthy can reign them in. >> artificial intelligence is a topic in washington, and they are talking about the advantages and risk of a.i., and you are not opposed to it but you have written a piece saying i get a.i. and it kind of scares the heck out of me in several ways, and how are you looking at the functions? >> i think a.i. is incredible and unbelievable it already benefited society it's like the steam engine, that

was disruptive to society. in a few years, it will become a warp drive with a personality, and we are not prepared for that >> what do you mean by that? what are the impacts you see coming >> it will replace a number of human tasks, so for example, if you are an architect, you can say i want these blueprints of a house of a certain size, two floors, three bathrooms and out pops a blueprint do we still need architects to make sure that blueprint is not crazy, and we do, but what do we do with that whenever passing years when people have skills that society needs less of it will be a disruption. people can do the same thing in a four-day workweek than they do now? what do we do with that? a.i. can kill us, right? if your phone malfunctions, it's

not going 60 miles per hour. but if a car malfunctions with a.i., it can kill people i have legislation i am working on that will create a blue ribbon bipartisan commission on what types of a.i. would should regulate and how we go about doing so >> congressman, thank you for bg here this morning. we appreciate it >> thank you mika two minutes past the top of the hour donald trump has been charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records after being arraigned in a manhattan courthouse yesterday the former president returned to his home at mar-a-lago where he delivered a speech calling for the case to be dropped garrett haake has the latest >> reporter: for the first time in u.s. heugsistory, a former

president is now a criminal defendant after pleading not guilty to 34 counts of falsifying business records. donald trump rallying supporters at his mar-a-lago estate overnight. >> the criminal is the district attorney -- >> and the judge presiding over the case >> i have a trump-hating judge, with a trump-hating wife and family >> those comments after the judge requested both sides to, quote, refrain from making comments or engaging in conduct that could create unrest or jeopardize the well-being of anybody. the former president was very somber, very quiet and not his usual self after he was processed, including fingerprinting, a stone-faced mr. trump entered the courtroom. prosecutors say mr. trump's actions were part of an unlawful

plan to identify negative information that could have undermined his 2016 campaign >> these are felony crimes in new york no matter who you are >> the payments were made to stormy daniels in 2016 on behalf of mr. trump to conceal an affair the former president denies and mcdougal alleged an affair with mr. trump in the early 2000s, and a $30,000 payment to a former trump doorman that claimed to have a story about a child trump had out of wedlock falsifying business records is usually a misdemeanor, but d.a. bragg says the charges are a

felony because they were intended to conceal other criminal conduct >> the scheme violated new york election law, and that makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means. >> so we had a good bit of back and forth between us after we saw what the indictment actually was. a lot of people that we were talking to on the phone yesterday were -- well, echoing what "the wall street journal" editorial said, and this was democratic lawyers, for this tpto be a felony, bragg needs a second crime and what is it? we have seen a lot of questions. chuck rosenberg strongly talked about the strength of the case this morning you feel like it's strong as well >> it's just the language of what the experts use, and saying it's a thin case, we don't know. is it smaller compared to georgia or documents

yes. as chuck said in the first hour of morning joe, the core of the case is strong what is interesting about this is the story of donald trump, which we have covered for years and we have known him for much longer than this presidency, an this was a grave moment. this was an arraignment of a former president it was not lost -- knowing him, it was not lost on donald trump, the gravity of this moment he came down the escalator when he announced his presidency, it was fanfare, crazy rallies and busting through norms for a good six years. this was the first time this former president was held accountable. he left mar-a-lago yesterday with a thin stream of trumpers holding flags up and came to new york, spent the night in his apartment alone getting ready for whatever it was that was going to come down, and then drove to the courthouse to a

wall of people with signs saying no man is above the law, and a lot of other things like that. that could not have been fun for him. there were trumpers there who tried to have rallies, but they were drowned out you could see it on his face when he was walking into the courthouse, this was not a happy guy. this guy was really concerned about what was about to happen then the picture in the courthouse says it all exhausted. worn down. imbittered and even looking alone looking at the body language there this arraignment came up with 34 felony counts. again, a lot of things that donald trump has done in his life, he never has seen accountability he was presented with his actions in front of a judge, including his threats to this country, his threats to the judge, his threats to the d.a., his behavior, and that is where

trump is different today trump even, last night, with no melania, went back to mar-a-lago and had a low-key event, and slurring his words and lots of grievances and pushing back. he knows, and his attorneys know, if he says one wrong thing or makes one wrong move, this case to be advanced. >> his problem, obviously, is that he did ignore the judge his sons were attacking the judge's daughter while he was still in court he comes out, and he attacks the judge. he attacks the judge's wife. he attacks the d.a this is just the sort of thing, again, if it were any other defendant but donald trump, man, i will tell you what, the hammer would have come down legally it would have been a bad, bad day. i guarantee you, if it were any case i ever saw directly or indirectly when i was your

attorney, my god -- first of all, the attorneys would resign from the case immediately. secondly, the defendant would be in big trouble with the court. but, you know, willie, obviously donald trump still gets to live by different rules than everybody else in america. we will see how the judge responds to all of the attacks on his family and the d.a., and even after the admonition in court, the warning in court. also, the speech last night was such a strange speech. it was all grievances. it was all about donald trump. that shouldn't be shocking to anybody. but there was a feeling, you turn around to the other networks, and there was a feeling that donald trump had a real opportunity last night because people from other news networks believed the d.a. over played his hand, and they were expecting donald trump to take

advantage of it, but he's a guy that can't control himself it was all grievances and a guy that was triggered and it was a speech by a snowflake. it's something that won't connect to voters who decide the outcome of elections >> yeah, it's kind of playing the hits, the speech last night. it could have been given at any time, just top it off with alvin bragg and the long list of grievances that he's always talking about, including mr. pillow and the long cast of characters in the room with him. there's the personal tied of this, where he looked out of energy last night. as we have said many times, this is just the beginning. this may not be a significant case in the long run, we will wait and see, but there's a lot more coming in georgia and a lot more coming from jack smith. let's bring in former u.s.

attorney, and david french and the host of "politics nation," the reverend al sharpton good morning charles, i will begin with you on set with us your reaction to what we learned yesterday once that indictment was unsealed, the 34 counts, and how strong this case, you think is, against the former president? >> initially, willie, when i read the indictment and statement of facts, i was a bit under whelmed when i started i think many people like myself were looking for that second crime we all had been waiting to see how brag gets from the misdemeanor to the felony. then it became more obvious, what he's doing is using new york state election law. i thought it was an unusual way of approaching it, but alvin bragg is the manhattan district attorney, which means he's the head law enforcement officer in

manhattan in the state of new york donald trump has broken the law, so no matter how he gets there, if it's the most overwhelming case, it doesn't have to be that in order for alvin bragg to do his job. >> charles, connect the dots, because the volume of the indictment first, and then the statement of facts and you are sorting through it looking for what the connection is, the misdemeanor and the felony what is the link >> in order to establish the felony crime of falsifying business records, the idea that you are basically creating false business records to conceal another crime. so in this case, what alvin bragg is alleging is that the falsified business records are saying, listen, we paid michael cohen this as reimbursement. it's covering up hush-money in this case, and one instance was

to cover-up something in an election, and there's the notion that there were two -- not one, but two different shell companies created for the purposes of basically hiding this catch and kill scheme that was had with the owner of the "national enquirer." what alvin bragg is alleging, there's a covering around tax fraud and a covering around the tax laws >> you know alvin bragg, and the charges that were filed, he lived with it for a while and he acted on it. what is going through his mind today? >> alvin bragg is probably one of the most methodical people i have met in public life, cautious and careful and determined to do what is right i think people forget a year ago

he was being lambasted for not prosecuting donald trump even some of his friends were saying he had, in many ways, not stood up to what they believed he should have done. but he waited, he took the hits -- two of his assistant d.a.'s quit, and he went through the evidence, which is why i felt when he came with the indictment, he must have done it after he was convinced that it would, in fact, be successful. let's not forget, a grand jury voted on this. alvin does not just wake up one morning and say, let's indict. the other thing i think we are missing here, one of the statements that resinated with me, and i am not a lawyer like joe, but resinated with me as just somebody watching his statement, and he said we prosecuted many people in this town for falsifying records. it would have been a miscarriage of his office to go after people

on wall street and other places and let donald trump get away with it. if we are going to go after falsifying records, why did he do it? he did it because of the election i got to go to the root of it, which is a felony in terms of the election he laid it out logically for donald trump to be able to show up yesterday with only a little rally -- you know the rallies i do, maybe 100 people led by george santos, and if there is anybody i would have wanted not to be at a rally with me is george santos, and he gets to mar-a-lago, and the pillow man is there, not his wife you go from george santos to the pillow man, not a great day for you, donald. >> well, joyce advvance, two pas here, first, your assessment of the case and what you saw yesterday from the manhattan

district attorney? plus, could you tell us about the judge, the warnings about some of the posts from trump, the threats, and do we think a gag order could be issued to a presidential candidate >> i will take the second question first, because i think it's an interesting one. donald trump is engaging in conduct that, as joe points out, would have any other defendant in hot water with the court. it's more complicated with trump. you have first amendment issues involved in a presidential candidate. but his conduct is heinous we don't have to look very far back, only to late october, to the attack on paul pelosi to understand trump's words have impact when they land in the community of his supporters. and the former president would probably like nothing better to have the gag order against him, and he could go out on the stump

and say it's terrible, this judge says i can't talk to you about the case the judge has a difficult path he will navigate here to protect the case, and the whole reason we don't want folks talking out in public so ultimately there could be a fair trial. the judge will have an additional burden of making sure nothing trump says is dangerous for jurors, for court personnel and witnesses and for increasingly for the judge's own family who trump and folks in his camp have attacked it's an unusual and very dangerous in many ways situation. as for the case itself, i think it's strong prosecutorial trade craft. this is a well-written indictment as alvin bragg said, these sorts of records violations are bread and butter in his office, and they are located in the nation's financial center and have a strong interest in protecting the integrity of business records. this is really a case about an

election this is the origin story of donald trump's efforts to manipulate -- >> yes >> -- elections, because what he's doing is trying to prevent additional stories about his unsavory personal life, from coming in front of voters at this critical point in time. the reason i say the trade craft is as strong as this, just sort of in summary form, the important issue here is whether these charges are misdemeanors or felonies. the false business records are misdemeanors, and they become felonies if they are committed in order to aid or conceal another crime. as charles says, we have all been speculating, what is the other crime? prosecutors in manhattan will give the jury three choices. there are two election violations, and there's one tax violation. i think the tax violation may be the sweet spot a lot of legal wrangling about

the election violations, and at least one of them is likely to survive. can't be true that trump is immune from federal and state election law i think the prosecutors have done a very fine job here. >> wow a lot there from joyce i would add that trump has a difficult path ahead as well, because he does have to watch what he says if he says something -- if he goes over the edge, and he is kind of incapable of keeping his mouth shut, and i know that's me editorializing here, and even bill barr says he's unbelievably undisciplined and very difficult for lawyers to keep in line. even last night in front of his audience, it was like he was listing, he thought, his grievances, but actually listing all the cases that he has stacked against him. it could not have been lost in the audience that this guy has a

lot of different possible crimes coming at him, and we have a situation where right now this president faces in this arraignment showing that his presidency starts and ends with the sleazy deal that had crimes in it. if the other cases against him come to bear, it will show he went into his presidency committing crimes and maybe left his presidency committing crimes trying to influence an election. >> right i will say one thing, the judge -- i don't know how hard the judge -- i guess, again -- >> i mean, how hard could it be? >> i could say, david french, i guess tennessee judges may be cut from the same cloth as northwest florida judges, because if somebody said this about a judge, his wife, daughter, family, d.a., baseball

bat, it wouldn't be hard for the judge because ever judge i ever practiced of especially in federal court would say to the defendant, counsel, bring your client up here, and you are running for president, political speech, first amendment protects you, but you are in my courtroom right now, and let me tell you something, if you threat anybody, if you threaten an officer of the court, if you d denigrate my courtroom, i will put you in jail. i will find you in contempt. i warned you once, and i will do it again, and i will put you in jail just one day, you will just stay there one night, because i am a nice guy i understand you can't control yourself, and you go out and do it again, i will put you in for a week and then a month because

you are in my courtroom now. what goes on on truth social, what goes on on facebook -- doesn't -- we don't -- we don't let that happen in america in courtrooms david, i swear to god, what i just said would be far more timid than whatever judge i ever practiced before would say if a defendant went out of a courtroom and ignored what a judge said about being careful about tearing down his courtroom, and i swear to god, they would be called back the next day and the judge would go, emergency hearing. i told you not to do it. what am i supposed to do counsel, throw him in jail control your client or he is going to jail for contempt of court. does that line up of what would happen in tennessee if you were defending somebody that did this, had sort of these threats?

>> oh, yeah, absolutely. that would be shutdown so quickly. look, the rule of law has two components, substance and process. even if you disagree with the substance, and you believe the charges are under whelming, that's where i am to be honest the felony charges are underwhelming. this is not a complaint i was particularly impressed by, but there's a process for dealing with it. you have to respect the process. you can't simply say i find felony charges under whelming so i will threaten the judge and his family that's not the way this works. he will have to -- well, i should say, in a functioning system he would have to get that under control and have to get that under control pronto. i can guarantee that -- >> are we losing him >> yeah, we are having some problem right now with david's

audio. we hope to get back to him again. but, charles, i have been talking about judges in the deep south. i would guess judges that you have been before would be the same way if a defendant attacked a federal judge this way, i don't care whether they were in northwest florida or the southern district of manhattan, you would be called back in, right? >> you would not see this go as long as it has you would see particularly the judge opening up yesterday's arraignment about how this narrative has gotten out of control. at the state level, i think one of the things that may be taking place is this judge is giving donald trump just enough to hang himself when you are talking about ultimately crafting a gag order that won't allow him to basically go on social media and continue i think there's a sensitivity that has to be approached as a

judge, because there's an argument already about how it's a political hit job, and everybody involved in prosecuting the case other than donald trump's defense team wants to ensure there's no argument where an appeal can be launched around an issue not on the merits i think this judge may be being extra cautious, but it would not shock me to get to the point where we start hearing language like being held in contempt, like a gag order, and the c contents would be interesting, and you are right, this is not something on a federal level that would carry on very long. >> quickly, charles, it's not just throwing him in jail if he makes a threat or whatever, but is it possible that the former assistant manhattan d.a. spoke on our show earlier about the prosecution going to the judge and saying he's doing this, he's making these threats, he's tainting the case, can we move this up? i mean, right now this is

supposed to move forward on december 4th does donald trump risk with his mouth moving this case to trial or starting a lot sooner >> there are a number of different remedies that alvin bragg's office can seek in this, and i think that's correct, moving it up so he can do no damage is one of them, and i think the judge is going to be inclined to figure out what can they do without ultimately causing significant presence to donald trump, which is something we may see >> interesting thank you very much. quickly, willie, i wanted to ask david french about a tweet that he retweeted last night republicans are going to lose a consequential supreme court race in wisconsin and watch the defund candidate win as mayor tonight, and they will spend all

day tomorrow talking about trump and nobody will see the problem. >> oh, my god. >> willie, it's the case this guy is toxic for his party. >> yeah, we will have the mayor-elect of chicago on next hour, and talking about the wisconsin case, what happens on the merits, you have a progressive now leading the court, and abortion will come up, and also a statement, if you look inside the vote about where that state is moving, away from republicans and districts that have been safe to them >> where the state is moving and where a lot of different parts of the country is moving, they are talking about donald trump being indicted and facing the judge will energize his base who is energizing wisconsin? who is energizing chicago? the base that is against donald trump, against people losing their right -- women losing their right of choice against

gerrymandering i think what donald trump has done for progressive forces and people that have more politics that i agree with, is a wake-up call let donald keep coming, and there are those of us not inside of the arena at the circus, there are several of us organizing >> they are going to lose huge in wisconsin and chicago, and they will spend time talking about donald trump and never see the difference when republicans dominate maga radicals in swing state races, they lose. how many more examples are required before they change course my god, we talk about it every day. i can't believe they just keep doing it >> well, i think you have to really understand how much of a closed loop the right-wing media

is after 2022, it was obvious -- it was absolutely obvious these maga election-denning candidates dragged down republicans in state after state and race after rate it was just no ambiguity about that at all. what was the messaging that went around the talk radio and the right-wing websites people spent so much time on, it was that's mitch mcconnell's fault. mitch mcconnell? no it marinates in its own media environment, and the my pillow extended universe loses and feels betrayed when they are the reason they feel they lost, and how many times must we go through the exact same thing until people wake up and realize

that path is the path of electoral destruction. >> david french, thank you very much >> banging your heads against the wall ahead, steve kornacki joins us to break down the high stakes and consequential supreme court election in wisconsin. brandon johnson has been elected the next mayor of chicago, and he will be our guest in our fourth hour of "morning joe." "yellowstone", questions about who might be returning to the series and when. >> come on, kevin. >> you're watching "morning joe. we'll be right back. ooh, the chewy app. clumping litter. salmon paté? we have enough to splurge on catnip toys!

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attorney in atlanta, who is doing everything in her power to indictment me over an absolutely perfect phone call day after day over the boxes hoax -- you know the boxes hoax, as we call it. letitia james said she would use the law to investigate transactions, and charging a former president of the united states for the first time in history. >> if donald trump was sane, rational, he would have said, i am going to go to bed with the win. as we all know, donald trump can't keep his mouth shut. he goes out -- i will just say, he messes the bed in a

stupendous way last night. he could have used that speech to say, yeah, you know, they treated me bad, this, that and the other, just like what happens to you, when they treat you bad doing a, b, c -- the system is rigged instead, it was all these personal grievances. he went all over the place, a scatter shot by the end of the speech, ron desantis had to be feeling great, going, well, he's always going to be him. because by the end, you are, like, that guy -- that guy will never be president again he took this advantage that a lot of people thought he had and completely blew it with that crazy display last night at mar-a-lago >> yeah, i don't know, joe, whether he completely blew it in the sense that all of the things we heard last night have been things we heard before, and they are all things -- if you believe

trump's power resides in his ability to have the loyalty of the maga base, and that that's a large enough chunk of the party to make him the frontrunner, the favorite and maybe ultimately the nominee of the party, and i am not sure he did anything to alienate any of those voters last night i think if you were somebody running against trump and you are making a case to the other part of the party, which is to say to the establishment part of the party, the never-trumpers, the maybe-trumpers, you can say, this is what we are going to get folks if you stick with trump. even on a day the judge told him to watch it, to simmer down and not say these inflammatory things, and not to attack the d.a., not to attack the courts or the justice system, and he

a admonished him in the court and he went out and did it, and if i am ron desantis, and i am the people where you have a strong -- this guy is never going to learn, and most people, i think, know that i think most of those that already know that, but if you are able to reinforce the notion about what a danger trump is if he becomes the nominee of the party as a potential loser, and what is being set up is the coming clash between the judge and donald trump everybody has to realize now, the next time we will see something about this case is in december we will be on the brink of the republicans starting to vote in early 2024, and they will walk in, and the months leading up to that hearing, donald trump will be doing this over and over and over again >> yeah, this is just the beginning. >> we know any judge will say, he's a former president and he is the leading candidate, and i

will give him a bidewide birth, i can't shut that man down for defending himself, but i can't have him inciting violence out there. the judge we saw yesterday starts to try and limit trump's speech in the way roger stone saw his speech limited how fast does that come? how tough is the judge those are the large political questions, with a contempt citation, donald trump could be thrown in jail if he violated a gag order. those are the questions that will loom large over our politics and the republican nomination as we get to the back part of the year >> we will talk more about it when stwe look at the big board and that's ahead on "morning joe.

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i will be the mayor for you, too. chicago, tonight is just the beginning. with our voices and our votes, we have ushered in a new chapter in the history of our city coming up, the mayor elect of chicago brandon johnson is our guest we will talk about his plans for the windy city after winning last night's runoff election that conversation is straight

ahead on "morning joe.

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to what was the message you wanted to send by being here today as the former president is set to be arraigned? >> the reason i came out is to protest, and it's our first amendment right to peacefully protest, not to cause problems or break laws but to use our voices we have to stand up against this for six years, the democrats warned president trump would destroy democracy, but democracy is being destroyed today they are not prosecuting president trump, but they are persecuting him. it's because he's the leading republican candidate for presidential election for 2024 >> yeah, marjorie taylor greene, you have all the other extremists in the house, that's the face of the republican party. those are the people that get out there along with donald

trump the most that's not doing him any favors in these states that are starting to rebuild that blue wall against republicans because of donald trump. it's all because of donald trump. i'm not saying a reasonable, rational republican couldn't go in tomorrow and win those states, they could donald trump can't just can't and finally, republicans, you just wonder who in the republican party in wisconsin thought, you know, we're going to be able to win this supporting an abortion law that was put on the books in wisconsin when zachary taylor was president in 1849. this is a parody of the republican party they still don't understand how devastating the overturning of a 49-year right for women has been to their electoral prospects, and it's kind of like when we

talk about gun safety, well, the majority of the members of the nra support this, the majority of republicans it's the same here, when you have a lot of republicans who identify as pro-life their whole life suddenly looking and going, no, i don't want my daughter to be arrested for trying to go to another state. i don't want to elect somebody who says a 14-year-old girl being raped by her uncle is a perfect reason why we need to pass tougher abortion laws. >> many don't know they're pregnant at six weeks. >> good luck explaining that, ron desantis, when you get outside the state of florida and their extremism on gun laws and abortion laws. it's all catching up with them, willie, and these states they have to win. >> you would think they learn. they have enough cycles to say, oh, that didn't work that continues not to work but in many cases they seem to

be boring in deeper, led by donald trump and other characters you describe there. george, as you look at the implications of wisconsin last night specifically for abortion for gerrymandering, also, as they say, for presidential elections, this guy dan kelly who is running, according to testimony from the former republican state chairman to the house select committee, kelly participated in this idea of fake electors in 2020 to try to snatch wisconsin back. he was right at the middle of that so how important is this race and a significant double digit race as we sit here this morning, this win for a liberal justice and what does it tell you beyond wisconsin >> i think it's what you all are saying is exactly right, the republican party is boiling itself down to appeal to a very small segment of the elect rora, and that's not going to cut it in a presidential election, and it's not going it cut it in

american politics, particularly with the changing demographics of the country we talk about florida. as florida ages, it's not going to be quite the same as it is today, and as people move from other places to texas, for example, texas isn't going to be the same the republicans have to figure out a new way, i mean, if the republican party is to survive, it's got to basically back up a little and try to figure out what appeals to 60% of the populations, instead of 30% of the population, and it's not really capable of doing that anymore because it's inward looking. the republican party is inward looking. refuses to look at itself in the mirror, refuses to look at donald trump clearly, and they need to surrender to reality and try to figure out how to win elections. but, instead, they're wedded to appealing to a small group of people to win those primaries

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if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. my army! if you're over 50, talk to your doctor yeah! soon we will destroy the mushroom kingdom. [ screaming ] [ gasps ] nervous? i fear nothing. you wanna do this? it is on like donkey kong! cool raccoon suit. really? -not at all. buckle up! here... we... go! [ chuckling ] i'm sorry i'm so upset, but please help president trump, if you can afford 5, 10, bucks, if you can't afford a dollar, pray, vote as early as you can in the state, don't risk anything

anymore. vote as soon as you can. pray for this country, pray for this president, and if you've got any money to give, give it lindsey graham.com it doesn't help me, it helps this president >> i'm telling you, i grew up in the grand mom's house listening, first of all, to billy graham, then to pat robertson. and then it was jim and tammy faye you will notice it kept going downhill, and jim and tammy fay baker, and the jimmy swaggert guy that was crying and ask for more and oral roberts saying god was going to kill him if people didn't give him $8 million and he said jesus was going to kill him was going to kill him if they

didn't give him $8 million now, i don't know, i've read the new testament a lot, and i've read the red letters, and i'm not sure where oral got that from, nor am i sure how lindsey graham can help america while weeping and sending $10 to lindseygraham.com. i'm telling you, it is jim and tammy faye baker personified with trump, with lindsey graham. look at him. he's starting to look more like jim baker. it's amazing >> yeah, i mean, you start to wonder, is there something else going on in senator graham's life he's been on tv crying an awful lot lately let's be respectful. a lot of layers to the onion here maybe there's something else underlying the tears, but, yeah,

i mean, vote, pray, but above all else, send me a bunch of money, and here's the web site where you can do it in the defense of donald trump. let's not forget this is the guy who walked away for about five minutes from donald trump, said i'm out, enough, on january 6th. he was out he was done and then he heard a couple of days later at the airport that a few people were mad at him he flipped around. my gosh. really escalating, i don't know what's coming next from senator graham. >> they are. >> i'm telling you, this is escalating fast, but i just want to -- we need to compare here because i think it's important it's all about compare/contrast. let's show that lindsey clip one more time if we have it and see where he may have gotten this from. >> hmm, okay >> i'm sorry i'm so upset but please help president trump. if you can afford 5 or 10 bucks, just pray, make sure you vote as

early as you can in your state, don't risk anything anymore, vote as soon as you can. pray for this country. pray for this president, and if you've got any money to give, give it. lindseygraham.com. it doesn't go to me. it goes to helping this president and taking back the senate >> and i would ask if you could just. >> lindsey got that down lindsey's got that down. except jimmy, well, i don't know i don't know if that's who he wants to emulate, willie, but, you know, lindsey keeps weeping. he keeps weeping for a guy that, like you said, i'm done with him, i'm done with him then three people in ham dog

follow him to the national airport and he whips right back. it's really strange these republicans. they just -- and we got the wisconsin thing last night these people, they just keep losing >> that's what he's really crying about. >> they keep getting crazier, keep moving further away from n mainstream america, and, willie, i'm sorry, i go back to "big" and tom hanks, i don't get it. >> the other thing that you have to keep coming back to is donald trump says that he is a billionaire. he lives in an apartment on 5th avenue with gold plated ceilings, lives in a castle in florida and flies around on a plane, yet he and people like lindsey graham are going out and begging supporters for money to pay his legal bills. it's kind of a wild scam they're running to convince people if you just send me the money, we're going to get that wall built. if you send me that money, we're going to get the 2020 election

overturned if you send me that money, just really shaking down his own supporters, taking advantage of them, taking their money, to a billionaire. >> and fake mug shots, and rev reverend al, let's look at this for a second we know donald for a long time, this guy claims he's a billionaire he flies around in a 757 he lives, you know, the grandest of grand lives, and he and lindsey and their like are shaking down poor working class americans saying give us whatever you got, send your money to us. do whatever. look at that they're going full jimmy

swaggart, he's a billionaire taking money from working class americans who are struggling to get by paycheck to paycheck when he's already raised hundreds of millions of dollars for his legal bills off the stop the sale farce. >> and you have really hit the nail on the head because, you know, i grew up a boy preacher, so i saw a lot of these evangelists come through with their tent meetings and prey on people that were working class or less than working class who were just reaching out for hope, and they grabbed their dollars and their $5, and this is the same thing donald trump is doing, who is so far removed from these people, but he wants their $5 you couldn't have one of those people get past the doorman without calling 911 for the police to come he wants them to give him money, and i think it's shameless,

which is why, as i said in the last hour, i think it's appropriate that the one that led his rally free donald trump yesterday was george santos. so we know exactly the ilk that is supporting him. >> and jon meacham, this is, again, what we're talking about is, again, the continued collapse of the republican party into just complete farce they are a parody of themselves. marjorie taylor greene now the face of the republican party in the house. she was the face of donald trump's resistance with george santos in manhattan. you got lindsey graham crying, asking for $25 billion for a billionaire who owns a 757 and lives in gated massive complex in mar-a-lago in a gold-plated tower in the middle of manhattan. and they're still trying to scam working class americans out of

$25 here, $25 there, and they wonder why they got crushed in '22 in michigan, why they lost last night in wisconsin, why they're losing in pennsylvania, while they're losing in every swing state, why 62% of independents think donald trump should be indicted you know, you came with that great example in '16, and you said it's like -- it's like the plane's been hijacked and all of the passengers in the republican party are cheering for the hijackers, at what point do the passengers say we keep crashing. every election day we keep crashing this plane. maybe it's time we find a new pilot. >> that's entirely the question, and it's not just about the republican party and their

competitiveness in the short policy term. it's about the durability of the constitutional order because we need two functioning political parties, that's the way the system is. right now i'd argue we don't have two functioning parties, and you and i know and talk to republicans who want the democratic party to be a bolshevik outfit, and they say, well, i don't like trump, i wouldn't want him at my rehearsal dinner, but, you know, he's going to stand against the c commies who are coming through delaware it just doesn't work as a rational matter. but one of the things that we have to figure out, it seems to me, is how to convince people that donald trump is not good

for the constitutional order the only thing i've come up with, and you talk about this a lot, is the republicans just have to keep losing. and i don't say that as some nutty democrat this is a lincoln insight, lincoln said all men act on incentive, and as uncomfortable as it is, we have to speak truth as we see it that's what, you know, the constitution guarantees us the right. and i think part of the reason senator graham is weeping is like most politicians, his currency is votes and the appearance of affection from the public and so he doesn't want to be contradicted he doesn't want people to think that he's not for them all together and in that complicated dynamic,

somehow or another, the republican professional political class, establishment, whatever you want to call it, has decided that they're going to suspend their devotion to a constitutional order in order to grab power it's not that -- you can get 35% of americans to do almost anything, right? i mean, that's the number of folks who still approved of joe mccarthy after mccarthy was censured, right? it's that 14 to 16% that in 2016 made donald trump president. that's the delta here. those are the folks that the case has to be made consistently that if you side with someone who is entirely about themselves and not about anything else, then you're going to lose. and the only way to break this

is to keep voting against him. >> well, and you know there's a reason why we always talk about, mika, you can get 35% on both sides to support just about anything it's in the middle it's between the 40 yard lines, as they say, and you get .5% here, 2.5% there, you know, half a percentage point, breaking away every two years and what happens is you wake up and pretty soon instead of democrats beating trump candidates by, you know, .5% or 1%, you see what happened last night in wisconsin where it was a route it was 11%, and that's why i always say, you know, if you expect -- if you expect trump supporters, even though they know most of them are on to donald trump now, you expect them to ever like break down and

weep like lindsey graham and, you know, if you expect weeping and gnashing of teeth, that ain't going to happen. what's going to happen is there's going to be a lifelong republican in the suburbs of atlanta that says, okay, enough. i'm out. there's going to be a lifelong independent that always votes for republicans in pennsylvania, in the philadelphia suburbs that says this morning, i've stuck with them. i've stuck with him as long as i can. i'm out. that's what's been happening over the past two, three, four, five years and it continues, and pretty soon you wake up and it's not .2%. it's a half percentage point it's a percentage point. five percentage points last night in wisconsin, 11 percentage points, and both sides said was the most important race in wisconsin, and would be for a decade. and yet the democrats crushed them, just like the pro choice

forces crushed republicans in kansas, in kansas for god's sake and then history made in 2022. >> so that's the political track with historical perspective. there's also a very serious legal track at play here and let's get our viewers, especially on the west coast, up to date on that. donald trump, the first president of the united states to be impeached twice is now the first former u.s. president to be criminally charged. trump was placed under arrest in new york city yesterday after manhattan district attorney alvin bragg revived a case that many thought was dead. it centers around a payment the former president allegedly made to pornstar stormy daniels bac in 2016 to keep her silent about a past sexual encounter she claims they had. the indictment details how, according to prosecutors, trump, quote, repeatedly and

fraudulently falsified new york records that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election. this was allegedly done as part of a scheme involving the former publisher of the "national inquirer" david pecker pecker said he was act as the eyes and ears of the 2016 campaign, seeking out any negative story about then candidate in order to suppress it in addition to facilitating the alleged stormy daniels payment, the indictment accuses pecker and trump of paying another woman to stay silent about allegations of sex with the former president and that woman is ex-playboy model karen mcdougal according to the indictment, trump and his former lawyer michael cohen even discussed the hush money scheme inside the oval office in 2017. trump pleaded not guilty to the

34 felony counts of falsifying business records joining us now, former manhattan assistant district attorney daniel horowitz and legal analyst maya wiley, she is president and ceo of the leadership conference on civil and human rights daniel horowitz, i would like to start with you, does the core of the case appear to be sound to you? and what escalation with this case could happen if trump continues with his threats and other types of behavior that was brought up during the arraignment? >> good morning. i think this is a very very solid case i think the theories are solid you've got two crimes, two theories behind these falsifying business records that are frankly offensive to the public. one is falsifying records to cover up something while candidate trump was then running for president and you've got potential tax crimes

those are both crimes that are offensive to the public interest because you're talking about the integrity of the electoral process and you're talking about the public fist. earlier this morning you were bantering about about the grift that gets played here. you're talking about in this particular case, ripping off potentially taxpayers to cover up payoffs to porn stars and playboy models so i think from a theory perspective, it's strong i think focusing on the evidence that we think that we're going to see, you've got -- you don't just have michael cohen, you've got david pecker, the long time publisher of the "national enquirer," a personal and chose friend of now defendant donald trump. you've got him, you've got tapes. you've got records, you've got a recipe for a very strong case. as far as what defendant trump does to continue to poke his finger in the eye of judge merchan, we're going to see. i think at the arraignment

yesterday, judge merchan, who operates with an iron fist wearing a linen glove gave a very strong warning to defendant donald trump if you act out either in this courtroom or outside the courtroom, i have the authority to remove you from these proceedings. now, that's the ultimate punishment i know we've talked about, i've heard people talking about contempt and fining him, gag orders, but the ultimate power that judge merchan has is to say that's it, the line has been crossed. you may not participate in these proceedings. now, typically in a case, those kinds of remedies, those kinds of sanctions are available only when a defendant has truly acted out, perhaps in a violent way in the courtroom. but i think that judge merchan has laid down a line and we'll see if defendant donald trump wants to cross it. >> we've already seen it he posted to truth social after

he made a speech ripping the d.a. and the judge his children are now posting about the judge's daughter there's all kinds of that going on just as someone who's worked inside that office, the presentation yesterday of the case was fascinating to a lot of people we got a look inside the indictment, the 34 counts, then the d.a. alvin bragg came out and gave the news conference where he walked through the statement of facts how do those two documents fit together >> that's a great question the d.a.'s office over the last probably five or ten years in complex cases will typically bring the kind of indictment you saw yesterday, a bare bones boilerplate indictment and accompany that with a statement of facts, and when you marry them together, you understand what the theories are. and essentially, the statement of facts, they're laying out what their case is, and from a legal perspective, while that document doesn't have the legal force that the indictment does, it provides details and a road

map to the defendant, to the public, what the case is going to look like so i think they did a very good job of marrying those two documents. >> we know that the next hearing is not until december, so we're looking eight months out, the judge says a trial perhaps in january, trump's team says let's push it out farther into 2024. if you're sort of estimating what this time line might be like, and how long it might drag on, what would you say >> i think a january trial next year is probably unrealistic i think even at the arraignment, defendant trump's lawyers were saying that's too quick, and honestly, that's not unreasonable when you set a motion schedule of eight months, you're not going to come right back and try the case i think the wild card, willie, i think the wild card is what does defendant trump do to throw sand in the gears is he going to continue to act out? is judge merchan going to have to bring him back before december and escalate perhaps not just the warnings but impose

some sanctions i think that's the wild card here >> on these charges that were filed yesterday, there's another shoe left to drop, and it's which way the prosecution might go in terms of the crime that they were trying to get to would it be taxes or would it be election fraud, what were your feelings about it, and where do you think they're going to go? >> well, i think i share the feelings that we've heard from mr. horowitz, which is we heard what is a complex case, but laid out very clearly by the district attorney, and one thing i just want to say in reminder here, this is a district attorney who originally was pilloried and pilloried by those who were hoping for donald trump indictment because he held on a case where he had assistant district attorney saying we think we have enough evidence, and he said i don't think we do. so one of the things that tells us is this is a careful district

attorney who is assessing evidence for its strength, and i think we heard very clearly from him yesterday in his press conference that, yes, he's locking at the election. he's he's looking at the interference with the election, he talked about the conspiracy, new york election law, and he talked about the fact that the very underlying issue here in addition to just falsifying business records is why you're falsifying business records and the relationship between that and whether or not he was protecting his 2016 campaign and i think we know from the public record because we also have michael cohen's audio tape of his conversation with donald trump on the karen mcdougal catch and kill, where david pecker allegedly and apparently because he's cooperating helped

orchestrate, helped orchestrate making sure that news did not hit the hands about karen mcdougal's affair with donald trump, and it was because of the election now, i would say we don't know what other shoes will drop in this indictment because it is very clear that it's a complex case but i will say this, to all of those who have been saying this is a weak case, they could lose or it's a novel case, all i will say is the caution of this office in ensuring that an historic indictment is a solid one has been pretty clear to me on the outside looking in. and that you don't bring an indictment lightly against a former president unless you feel you can make the case. >> so jon meacham, we're concerned in the intricacies of the case, but we turn to you for the big picture stuff. this is the first time a united states president has been

charged with a crime something you have said the founders foresaw that something like this might happen, so just tell us a little bit as you saw these striking images yesterday of trump in the courthouse, the sketches and photographs of him in the courtroom having to listen to a judge, listen to his attorneys, what did that moment say to you >> you know, it was -- sometimes, you know, we think in narrative terms always, and you know, this era, which lots of folks, including me, have at various points declared that the trump phenomena is over, you know, well, this will be it, you know, some line, conventional line in american politics would have been crossed and we think, well, we're going to move on well, we haven't moved on. and the story unfolds, and i was thinking about it. it was almost the iconography of

this odd moment where reality television and american democracy have had this potentially fatal intersection and for the former president, maybe this is just a new season, right? maybe this is just a reset of, you know, he's raising money off of it. he's back, looking at the headlines, here we are talking about him, it's qed, right so i think historically speaking, holding individuals accountable for their behavior is a key function of the rule of law. it's been two and a half centuries, what, 45 men have held that office grover cleveland twice, and this is the first time one of them will be held prospectively accountable. and the only other thought i have is -- and there's a lot of rethinking on this

there's been thinking and rethinking is, you know, the ford pardon of richard nixon in 1974 was unpopular in realtime, and then as the years went by, it was rethought it was seen as an act of statesmanship. it helped the country get past watergate. there's now some interesting re-rethinking. which is it's possible that by pardoning richard nixon in 1974 and preventing him from being held accountable for crimes against the constitution that it created a sense of -- that there are people who are above the law, and it made accountability all the harder, and i think that historically speaking that's worth considering. we're also asking people to do something really really hard, which is in an intensely polarized era, we are asking

them to think of a common constitutional good above their own narrow short-term political interests, and almost half the country, right, most republicans are at least publicly and in theircircles, they have to be supportive of him. or at least put it this way, if they're not supportive of trump, they have to be dismissive of the indictment >> right >> and in that, once again, you see people sacrificing, i think, a constitutional good for a short-term partisan interest, and i think history is going to judge that very harshly. >> and jon meacham, proving that you and i are two of the biggest nerds on television, last night, while i was watching donald trump speak, i actually went back to the profiles in courage

web site i read their proclamation about gerald ford, i went back to the 2001 "new york times" article when he was awarded it ted kennedy's words saying i was against this but then i read what a high school student had written in an essay and it made me rethink it, and again, even that is a bit clouded. you can look at it one of two ways you can say, well, wait a second, everybody was praising ford belatedly for that when they had 20 years or so to think about it you look at it that way or you can look at it the way you're saying some are, and it's sort of a rethinking of that rethinking in 2001 when gerald ford won the profiles in courage award. it is a fascinating question >> he carried around -- if you ask president ford about this,

continuing the dork chronicles, he carried in his wallet a little typewritten card that was a quotation from a supreme court decision early in the 20th century, the verdict decision that said the acceptance of a pardon, i'm paraphrasing, is an implicit confession, acknowledgment of guilt. and so the fact that he had it in his wallet suggests that he spent, what, 30 years, you know, in golf clubs and places being asked about this, and he would pull it out, and it was important to himthat people know that he believed that the former president had implicitly acknowledged his guilt richard norton has written a big book on ford president ford was a good man who led us through a horrible time >> right >> so this isn't a personal thing about him, but it is this interesting constitutional question going forward, is anyone above the law

and supposed to be no one in america is supposed to be above the law. >> well, and it may be a different season for donald trump, but it is a season of accountability he's in accountability mode because is judge is watching his actions right now. things are very very different for donald trump right now his former attorney general bill barr is predicting the former president's new lawyer will reg regret taking on trump as a client barr was commenting on an e-mail attorney todd blanch reportedly sent to his former firm in which he said he's resigning for the chance to represent the former president. take a listen. >> he said he could not -- something along the lines of i couldn't pass up the opportunity to do this, to handle this why do you think he says that? >> because he hasn't worked with trump before >> do you think he'll be sorry, is that what you're saying >> lawyers inevitably are sorry

for taking on assignments, they spend a lot of time before grand juries or depositions themselves >> oh, my gosh. >> former president trump did have one small legal victory yesterday in california. the 9th circuit court of appeals ordered stormy daniels to pay $121,000 for trump's legal fees in a defamation case that she brought against the former president. here's how brit hume reacted on fox news. >> this just happened, the 9th circuit just awarded trump $121,000 in attorney fees from stormy daniels, order just released, this is in addition to the 500,000 that she already owes him obviously interesting timing on that one, brit >> vote for me, i collected $121,000 from a porn star i had an encounter with. oh, good >> that is a bumper sticker.

and trump is doing, you know, making up fake mug shots, his team or whatever daniel horowitz, life is completely different for donald trump, and i say this because donald trump has never had -- has never been held accountable for his actions or words ever. and now he is under the microscope, given this arraignment, given this indictment given the warning by this judge. and anything he says or does if it threatens the life of bragg or someone else, could escalate this case. do you agree >> absolutely. i think that for anybody, for any ordinary person, going through what donald trump had to go through yesterday to surrender, to get finger printed, to get booked, to sit in a courtroom where he can't say anything other than guilty or not guilty, for any ordinary person, this is an extraordinary

event and i would submit to you that he is going to learn the hard way that in a battle between him and a judge, ultimately he is going to lose can't speak to whatever the collate collateral benefits might be to him outside the courtroom, but with respect to whatever goes on in that courtroom, the judge is king, and i think that's going to be a difficult lesson for him to swallow. >> i couldn't agree more outside the courtroom, anything goes with donald trump inside the courtroom, tit's the judge's domain, tit's the rule f law's domain i wonder, is this guy going to be able to adjust to it, and if he doesn't, which i suspect he won't, what the ultimate consequences are going to be for him? >> one thing bill barr didn't say, which i was thinking when you played that clip was one of the reasons that lawyers regret representing donald trump is that he's uncontrollable

when the last thing you want as a lawyer is for your client who's facing an indictment to go and remind the american public and all the possible jurors about all the other criminal investigations he's facing, that's number one, and you actually want someone to be respectful of the rule of law because you want them to communicate confidence confidence means saying i'm going to go through this proceeding i'm innocent at the end of this, i'll be cleared. that's the only thing you want to hear from your client in any kind of public statement, and it's always the more you attack the proceedings, that you attack the district attorney, elected by the people of manhattan, the more you do all of those things, the more defensive you appear. but what i will say is we know that donald trump has never been very controllable. it's very hard to imagine he will become so, unless he is

sufficiently afraid, and his lawyers are able to convince him he's got much to fear. having said that, i will say, i do think this judge is going to be -- this judge is a boss, not a king and what i mean by that is the judge is also governed by constitutional principles and will have to work very carefully to draw distinctions between what donald trump says that is legitimate first amendment speech particularly as a candidate for office versus what is an impermissible public statement with regard to these criminal proceedings that is something the judge is going to be paying close attention to, and i don't think that we will see the judge being brash. i think we will see this judge being very considered. can i just add one thing to the previous conversation between joe, you and jon, about richard nixon and it's incredibly important to be accountable. let me just say this, my father

was on richard nix yon's enemies list, so there's a different perspective on how important that accountability was, even those of us in the 1970s recognized at the time the level of abuse that happened in the nixon administration we have seen the same thing in the history of the donald trump administration, whether or not it's a crime, and that is something that the american people will be hearing more about because donald trump will be reminding us. >> yes, they will. legal analyst, maya wiley, i think we can surmise former manhattan assistant district attorney daniel horowitz, and historian, jon meacham, thank you all very much for your insight this morning. and coming up on "morning joe," a seismic victory for liberals in wisconsin, in the most expensive judicial race in american history, steve kornacki will join us from the big board to break it all down for us. also ahead, the mayor elect of chicago will be our guest what brandon johnson's plans for

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6:40 in the morning, the beautiful golden gate bridge in san francisco. 9:30 on the east southeast a major story in wisconsin, for the first time in 15 years rgs the supreme court will have a liberal majority nbc news can project that milwaukee county judge has defeated former state supreme court justice dan kelly. joining us now national political correspondent steve kor kornacki over at the big board big implications for policy and perhaps the future of the vote in the state of wisconsin. >> a lot of hot button issues in wisconsin that touch on national hot button issues that the supreme court may be tasked in that state with deciding that's why the supreme court races in wisconsin have become deals over the last 15 years,

the most expensive state judicial election in history not officially a democrat/republican race, but basically a democrat aligned candidate, a republican-aligned candidate winning this thing by double digits. wisconsin is a state a little bit more than a year from now we're going to be watching closely in the 2024 presidential election and if you start trying to map that out right now, it's hard to find a republican victory formula in 2024 that does not include winning wisconsin. so with that in mind, take a look at some of the patterns and trends that stand out from this map last night one has to do with the suburban counties immediately outside of milwaukee. they call them the wow counties. it's washington, it's ozaki, it's washington. t these are still, as you can see on your screen, red counties we have been talking about suburban counties shifting away from the republican party, especially the trump republican party.

in two of these three counties that has been the story. republicans are still winning them take a look at how the trend has been moving against republicans. 15% of all the votes come out of the three counties this is, again, traditionally republican big suburban county, the republican aligned candidate wins it but that's a margin of 4 1/2 points there for dan kelly in ozaki county. take a look at how this has moved in recent years. donald trump won here by 12 in 2020 donald trump won here by 19 in 2016, and if you go back just a decade, mitt romney was winning this thing almost two to one over barack obama. that's the kind of plurality republicans used to count on out of a county like ozaki they barely carried it in the race last night. the biggest of the three wow counties, 16 points for kelly,

rewind, go back in time a little bit here, and see how these numbers have eroded for republicans. look at that, barack obama barely scraped 30% in 2012 and again last night, kelly winning it, but this is not a traditional republican victory margin the suburbs outside milwaukee, they continue to move away from the republican party, major problem for the republican party in wisconsin another area of concern for republicans right here, you see these three counties, this is brown county, appleton, this is winnebago, where oshkosh is. all three of these are counties that donald trump carried in the 2020 presidential election, and then last night, you can see the democratic aligned candidate actually pulled out victories in all of them, and then the final note, the biggest, most liberal, if you combine those things, size and liberalism, i would say the largest combination of size and liberalism, dane county, university of wisconsin, it's where madison is, and democrats

just continue, a decade or two story here, to squeeze more and more votes out of dane county. you look at last night, 200,000 votes out of this county, that's an improvement of more than 6 points over what joe biden got here in 2020 and look at this, 194,000 votes for the democrat-aligned county in dane. milwaukee, almost always produces the most democratic votes, dane county produced more votes for the democrat-aligned candidate than milwaukee county. that's a big -- it used to be 2-1 in milwaukee's favor these are big changes in wisconsin. >> wow, let's bring in somebody no who he is so much about wisconsin, a guy i always call on election nights to see how races are going. founder of the conservative web site the bulwark, charlie sykes, it's what we say every day, right?

republicans behind donald trump are losing the suburbs of atlanta, they're losing the suburbs of philly, they're losing the suburbs of milwaukee, and it's hard not to look at this race, which everybody knew on both sides, one of the most important races in wisconsin's recent history, and the most expensive and yet the republican-supported candidates got trounced by 11 points, and charlie, it just seems the trend lines keep breaking against trump republicans. >> yes, that result is stunning, i mean, in wisconsin, everything is close, elections are decided by 20,000 votes, this one decided by 200,000 votes, and steve's analysis was brilliant he put his fingers on all the major trends, including my home county of ozaki county i'm speaking to you from the w.o.w. counties, and to watch these counties go from

overwhelmingly republican to just barely republican is really quite extraordinary. in wakashaw, he only got about 58%. this is, look, we can over analyze this, but this is the trump effect and the dobs bs effect and the trend lines are very clear it's not just in the suburbs of milwaukee, the so called, you know, brown county, allegheny county, and winnebago county, heavily roman catholic populations. republicans pulled out all the stops, they understood what the stakes were. the pro life organizations mobilized, and yet they lost this race by more than 10 points this is a huge defeat for republicans. it really does shake their hold on state government. but as you point out, the trend line could not be clearer, and if republicans go into 2024 with

a very very strong, you know, anti-roe v. wade position, they're going to see different patterns you see people in wisconsin who are highly motivated to vote, and also you have voters in the suburbs who had voted traditionally republican who voted for a very liberal candidate for state supreme court last night, and that has got to send shock waves through the republican party in a key swing state. >> charlie, does this also say that when you have both sides trying to really mobilize turnout that those that are pro choice, in this case, clearly show that they can energize and mobilize and turn out their base more than the opposition because it wasn't like the opposition wasn't trying to turn out their base and spending a lot of money. it's just they were outdone. >> yes, and this is new. this is a big reversal because traditionally in these low

turnout spring elections, it would be the pro lifers and the conservatives who are more motivated to turn out and vote so you've seen a real reversal of the polls here when you start to see pro choice voters come out in these numbers and of course we saw that in kansas, and now we're seeing it in wisconsin you know, the big question that i had was whether other issues like crime or whether there, you know, might change the dynamic here republicans have traditionally had a very good turnout, you know, vote turnout program, whether or not there might have been a, you know, post trump indictment bump, none of that happened, and i think that what you're seeing here is a very new dynamic, and i don't see it ending anytime soon because between now and 2024, you're going to continue to see states around the country passing very very harsh antiabortion bills

that of course will play, you know, here in places like pennsylvania and michigan and minnesota, the way they're playing around the country. >> charlie sykes, the man to talk to about what's going on in wisconsin. thank you very much. we're looking at results from the runoff election south of wisconsin down in chicago, how did it turn out? >> chicago is going to have a new mayor, and a bit of a surprise, at least if you look at the final polling in this race, a tight race, but brandon johnson, a member of the cook county board of commissioners, defeats paul valis in the preliminary round of voting. valis had finished easily first, johnson catches him in the end conceding last night, again, preliminary campaign a lot of focus on issues of crime and quality of life. it's what vallas stressed in the preliminary. his success in the preliminary

as a harbinger of what was to come brandon johnson who ran to the left ends up polling this out. it had been 40 years before this year that an incumbent chicago mayor was defeated for re-election. that was jane byrne in 1983. this will be the closest general election chicago has had for mayor in 40 years since that 1983 general election ended up being between harold washington. brandon johnson winning this one. all right, steve, thank you so much, and let's bring in right now the mayor-elect of chicago, brandon johnson let's bring in rev too i got a bible verse for the pr preacher's son from isaiah those who wait on the lord shall renew their strength they shall mount up with wings lik like eagles, they shall runand not get weary. >> brandon is a preacher's son so he also knows that weeping

men endure for a night, but joy is coming in the morning >> rev, we'll give you the first question on that one >> brandon, congratulations. i should say mayor-elect let me ask you this, as you know i have a lot of ties into chicago with nash action network. one of the things that was defining in your race was crime. and the fraternal order of police was adamant against you, the head of it said there'd be blood in the streets if brandon johnson wins one of the dilemmas black mayors have faced is how to deal with crime and also policing at the same time. the mayors of the four major cities in the country, l.a., new york, houston, and chicago have black mayors how do you balance, how do you work with fop now to deal with crime and at the same time deal with the base that built this

infrastructure that you won by that's concerned about police reform i know mayor adams has reached out for you to discuss that in new york i think it's a national problem. it directly hits you in chicago where crime is such a real concern. >> yeah, well, thank you so much and good morning if i would have known i was going to be attending sunday school this morning, i certainly would have drank another coffee of joe not that i was ever bored in sunday school growing up in the church household i'm very much humbled by just the energy and excitement, it's been an outbreak around the city of chicago and quite frankly, around the country public safety is something everyone is thinking about it is avery severe problem as indicated last time on this show reverend al. i live on the west side of chicago, my wife and i, we're raising three children, and we might be the first mayor ever elected in the city of chicago that will wake up every single

morning in the most violent neighborhood in the city of chicago. you know, and so as far as, you know, how we tackle this dynamic, it's going to take a collective response. we have district council members. these are community-based k commissions that have been elected to provide the type of sfort and infrastructure needed. the faith community, business owners small and large, our violence prevention organizations, community-based organizations and of course the office of the mayor. all of us are going to come together to build a better, safer, stronger chicago. what's required in this moment is real collaboration. as i said last night, bringing people together, that's something that i'm actually pretty good at as a teacher, as an organizer, growing up in a household with nine siblings, one bathroom. learning to organize and work collectively, that's something i was raised to do in this moment, that is how i'm going to lead. it's something that is a tale for the rest of the city, not just for the city of chicago but for the rest of the country.

we tend to limit our conversations around toughness and many police officers, and what has been proven over and over again, that is not a recipe for absolute success and so our mission in my platform has been very clear we get at the immediate dynamic of public safety, but we also set up long-term solutions, and that's everything from economic development, affordable housing, but we also have to provide health care, and that includes mental health care, treating the trauma that has been just very horrific and it has gripped many of our communities in a way that has made it very difficult for people to literally breathe, and so it's a comprehensive approach and i'm certainly looking forward to building that coalition to solve this dynamic. >> mayor-elect johnson, you are certainly not alone in terms of go governing a city beset by crime, by guns, by violence, horrendous violence, often taking the lives of young people under the age of

15, 14, whatever going forward, though, you are the mayor. will you sit down with the police union and try to heal something that's going on between the two of you we keep reading reports that if you were elected, you've been elected, that the hundreds of police officers might resign we'd see if that would happen actually being mayor is a very, very tough job. being mayor of chicago is an incredibly tough job being a police officer in chicago is a dangerous job what is your plan in terms of resolving whatever differences exist between you and the police department >> well, first of all, i don't believe there's a difference between me and the police department now, what the fraternal order of police leader has said, that doesn't necessarily reflect the values of the city of chicago. the head of the police union here in chicago also said, you know, that, you know, muslims deserve a bullet in their head, right? i mean, so we're not going to

base our administration off of what, you know, the police union leader has said. what local law enforcement have said repeatedly, it's hard enough to do their jobs, and you're absolutely right. it is a hard job and dangerous, but what makes it even harder is when they have to do their job and someone else's police officers are showing up to 911 calls responding to domestic challenges that, quite frankly, should have a mental health support person there that leads that interaction police officers have also been asking for mental health services for them. we haven't implemented that process. you know what else police officers have been asking for, a regular supervisor a police officer can show up every single day in the city of chicago and have a different supervisor i've been a public school teacher in chicago that's like a teacher showing up

every day and there's a different principal. if you don't know who you are ultimately accountable to, that creates instability skand so wh my administration is going to do is certainly sit down with the police department, but it also includes the faith community, business owners, violence prevention workers i sat down with mothers who lost their sons to the violence that you're talking about, and you know what they said? they said, you know, brandon, if you get elected, we want to be a part of the training and the conversations with those 200 more detectives. that's what we're going to do. we're going to bring people together to solve these very difficult problems >> all right mayor-elect of chicago, brandon johnson, thank you so much we greatly appreciate you being here and rev and i will see you tonight at church at wednesday night supper >> congratulations. >> just make sure you show up for choir rehearsal too, that's important. >> and we're trying to get deke

and lindsey graham to raise the offering. >> we're going to put deke and lindsey in charge of the building fund, getting donations. thank you, mr. mayor-elect, and we look forward to seeing you in chicago sometime soon. willie, so much happening today. final thoughts >> well, we talked a lot more about jimmy swaggart than i anticipated. i would say, jonathan lemire, yes, a lot of analysis, mixed reviews of the case coming out of lower manhattan, but the wisconsin story is a flashing red light for the republican party. >> significantly so. shows a republican party that has tethered itself to donald trump is losing in these battleground states. we have heard from the former president this morning he's not criticized the judge or jury yet but he's calling for republicans in congress to defund the doj and fbi so he is now saddling republicans with that message as well. >> you have to get over the fact that joe raised the absolute

issue that jesus would kill you unless you raise $8 million. >> well, i think that it's -- >> not joe >> i think we end the program with jonathan and now donald trump has become the leader of defund the police. >> yep >> on that note. >> let me just say, though, before we leave, there is no question, though, one thing that we all agree on, at least barb barnicle and i agree on, the red sox pitching staff. >> snuck one in under the wire. >> we need to play sarah mclaughlin and raise some money to get some arms in boston >> you need to go up into the tower, the prudential tower, right, mike, call for money in boston >> cry, i'm going to cry >> that does it for us this morning, blessedly lindsey reiser picks up the coverage