>> nadya tolokonnikova gets tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. stephanie ruhle starts now ♪ ♪ ♪ >> tonight, special counsel jack smith narrowing the circle around donald trump with his latest round of subpoenas. but will jared and ivanka actually testify?

and then, a show of unity on the world stage. president biden and members of nato pledging their support for ukraine at a crucial time in the war. and the splintering of the republican party. it looks like everyone is focused on one florida man and not the guy at mar-a-lago. as the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. we begin tonight with a big developments on two separate investigations into donald trump. the new york times reporting that special counsel jack smith has subpoena ivanka trump and her husband jared kushner to testify before a grand jury, according to two people briefed on the manner. donald trump's daughter and son-in-law both served as white house officials in the trump administration, and they both gave interviews to the january 6th committee. earlier today, committee member zoloft greene reacted to the

subpoena news. >> both of them appeared before our committee. some of it was useful. but i will say there was a vagueness, especially with mr. kushner, but also ivanka, where it was just hard to believe they could not remember some of the things they claimed not to remember. i believe that a grand jury appearance might shake the recollections in some cases. >> it might, the committee did get a vaunted to talk about whether she believed her father's election fraud lies. and they asked her specifically about former attorney general bill barr's testimony that there was zero basis for all those very lies. and here's what she said about that. >> how did that affect your perspective about the election when attorney general barr made that statement? >> it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr. so, i accepted what he was

saying. >> meanwhile in the state of georgia, fulton county da fani willis has said a decision on charges in her trump investigation or imminent. but recent interviews by the special counsel grand jury foreperson, the ones you saw all last night and all of the airwaves today, they could complicate things. cbs reports that some possible republican targets of the investigation are already preparing to challenge any future indictments, arguing that foreperson's public comments have tainted the entire investigation. that reporting is based on two people familiar with the discussions. the special grand jury of course can only make recommendations. fani willis herself will decide what charges to bring before a regular grand jury. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel tonight. peter baker's here, chief white house correspondent for the new york times. and gary proud father of theo baker, the new and youngest

recipient of the very prestigious pope journalist award. peter, congratulations to your son, and welcome. neil cultural also joins us. he's got a lot to be proud of. he's fresh of a supreme court victory. he's a department of justice veteran and former acting solicitor general during the obama administration. harry litman, he had to be here with me tonight. he may be the proudest for that. former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. mr. lippman, to you first. what do you make of this big jared and ivanka subpoena? everyone is gasping like they're going to say something big. >> well, they haven't said anything big yet. and they might. that's something that tends to kind of narrow the focus when you get a grand jury. they could try to challenge it on executive privilege. and that's losing claim, and a quick loser. it goes up and down the d.c. courts pretty clearly. and it's happened already. and you saw avant there. and the whole interview was kind of hedged in

impressionistic. we want to know what it is say. and by the, way she's his closest sort of confidant all through november, december, january. anything he said that was distraught indicated he knew he lost, she ought to know that as well. and she also said to someone else that they have reports on. i think she has real information. and i think the january 6th committee basically, you, noah handled her with kid gloves. so i think, there is more there. >> neil, what do you think about a subpoena? >> i think, stephanie, different families bond in different ways. and some come together and eat dinner. and others to watch a movie. i guess the trump family comes together when they all get subpoenas to testify and when they resist them. so, i think this is a big deal, a subpoena. jack smith is reaching right into the inner circle. and ivanka was certainly in the room where it all happened. so, i think it's a good, move it's a wise move. i'm surprised it has not happened by now. but thank god, it's at least

happening by now. but i do expect ivanka to resist this, because that is the trump family motto, to resist. and you know, they're more scared of telling the truth under oath and vampires are of garlic. so, i think this will go to the courts. it will be fought. but she will lose and, she will have to testify. >> but testify to, what peter? i know even you have reported that since they left the white house, jared and ivanka have somewhat distance themselves from donald trump. but i have known him for a decade. you've been covering them for years. do really believe that these two are going to turn on him in a significant way? >> i don't think they're either going to turn on him in a sense that they're going to be, you know, hostile witnesses against him. but if they tell their version of the story, obviously it could help flush out the narrative that jack smith is trying to, you know, put together here. and their story is actually very interesting. we talk about in our book the divider. -- mom, susan glasser, how

basically after the election was over, they knew president trump had lost. they chose not to be involved in the whole election fraud claim because they knew it wasn't true. you saw a ivanka trump essentially admit that with her interview with the january six committee. but also, they decided not to fight the people like rudy giuliani and others who are filling the presidents ear with all these stories of manipulation and fraud. they chose not to engage on that very, very important moment. so, even before january 6th, they chose to withdraw from that fight and leave it to avoid, to people like sydney powell, rudy giuliani, and others who are trying to push the present, willingly of course, to make these fantastical claims. >> all right, but let's be clear, they weren't spending that period of time feeding the poor. jarred was oversee, likely working all of his angles, much like steve mnuchin was. and the two of them then raising billions and billions of dollars from investors in the middle east. but peter, this notion that the

grand jury is a lot scary in the january 6th committee, that they could shake the truth out of them, can't ivanka just say the same thing she said before, i don't remember? >> well, you had two great prominent lawyers here that is more than i am on that. but they're probably going to drill down very hard on specifically what happened at one moment. she's in an out of the oval office repeatedly on january 6th. colin, summoned by others to try to talk or father into calling off the mob, in effect. trying to get him to put out tweets that are more explicit, more helpful, and failing, basically again and again. she also told people she went to the rally before the attack on the capitol, specifically because she worried that her father was going to go after mike pence. which of course he then does. she has a lot to say, if she chooses to say. how specific should be, we don't know. she's also, there by the, way in the phone call president trump makes to vice president pence in that last moment. she reported talking to how the

president was leaning on pants, calling him words we don't usually use on television if he doesn't go along the scheme to deny the electors who are there to vote for joe biden. so, there's a lot there to talk about if in fact, you know, they choose to go down this route. and it sounds like they are going down this route. >> harry, can't just say i don't remember? it might seem to be unbelievable. but if you can't prove it, come on. >> first, that is perjury if you can prove. it you are right, but those are, as, told some conversations she could probably slide by with the i don't remember. but as peter is mentioning, she talked to other people, including to her assistant, who has certain versions of things to say. other people are there also when she's doing the pence call. so, a seasoned and skillful prosecutor will be able, you know, be more precise and get stuff out of her. even if she, you know, retreats when she can't that answer. >> season and skilled. that is jack smith.

let's switch gears and talk georgia, about the cbs reporting that possible republican targets are going to fight future indictments and say it's all about this forewoman and the tv interviews she did. could they really derail this thing? >> i don't think so. first of all, to me the important thing is not this foreperson, it's what happens to donald trump. and reading the tea leaves from what she said and what was released last week, it sounds like there is some good reason to think they did recommend an indictment to the former president. now, i think trump will, as he always does, try to fight this and say if he is indicted, will make a mountain out of a molehill, and so will some of the other folks who are targets. but from a legal perspective, i don't think this even rises to the level of a molehill. i don't think there's anything illegal in what the grand juror four person did yesterday, because georgia is different from, for example, other legal systems in which they think that a grand jury belongs to

the people. and the grand jury members are free to talk about their service and what they did. that isn't true elsewhere in the country, but it is true in georgia. so, i imagine the district attorney isn't too thrilled about this. it's the same reason she didn't want the grand jury report released. and fought, but lost that fight. but she doesn't have any authority over this grand juror. so, i think the remarks are unfortunate and should not have happened. but i don't think it's going to undermine the prosecution and the end of the day. >> what do you think, harry? >> i agree. i think it will give rise maybe two arguments when they're choosing the jury. that always is going to be very complicated anyway. you know, neal it's completely right. there is no violation here. not to mention, this is a special grand jury, one that is going to take the official action. you hear, well, it's been tainted. but if you stop and think about, why? it doesn't make sense that somehow the indictment that would be returned later has now

been tainted if there's no sort of causal link from her, admittedly, imprudent comments to any kind of taint. >> neal, time for you to flex their muscles. tell us about your big when the supreme court today. >> so, this is a death penalty case. and stephanie, arizona has done something really terrible on one of the most momentous choices a government makes, which is whether to put someone to death. and if someone commits a serious crime in arizona, parole is actually abolish. so, if the jury does not impose death, and that person is going to be in jail for the rest of their life. and so, criminal defendants want to tell the jury that. they want to say hey, if you don't give me the death penalty, it's not as if i'm going to be out on the street. there is no risk that i'll be dangerous in the future, because i will be locked up for the rest of my life and the key will be thrown away. and here's the thing, stephanie, arizona doesn't allow the jury to be told that. so, the prosecutors could intimate that the person will

be dangerous and the jury will labor under the missed impression. so, my client, mr. crews, along with 30 others in arizona, were suffering under this regime and sentenced to death. and today in a 5 to 4 supreme court decision written by justice sotomayor, and crucially joined by chief justice john roberts and justice brett kavanaugh, they said that what arizona was doing violated the constitution and the jurors should be told about this. so, it's obviously important. it may save 30 lives in arizona alone. but i think it's significant more broadly, because if i have a hope, it's that the supreme court walked back from the precipice of where it was walking last term with really broad, terrible rulings on abortion, gun control, and climate regulation. and i'm looking to the chief justice for guidance. i mean, there is no doubt he was put on by the bush cheney administration to be very conservative. but there are sometimes these signs that he abuses the

institutional role, it's something larger than him. and we advocates have a responsibility to make these arguments to this court. we can just throw in the towel and say, oh, all is lost. i'm certainly not going down without a fight. and i'm really proud of my team today for bringing this victory to the american people. >> and you should be. neil, congratulations to you and your team. neal katyal, it harry litman, and again, peter, what are you going to see your son? >> tomorrow actually. >> you're going to see him tomorrow? well, congratulations. wish him all the best. congratulate him from me on the 11th hour team. also tonight, some terrible, terrible news. another horrific reminder of gun violence in america. this is almost not to be believed. a crime scene turned into a another crime scene earlier today, when deputies say a man suspected of killing a woman returned to the scene and killed a nine-year-old girl and a tv news journalist that was covering the earlier shooting. the girl's mother was also heard. so was another member of the tv

crew. the suspect in all of the shootings is now in police custody. sadly, this is just one of the mass shootings in america so far this year. you know how many we are up to? 83. coming up, the u.s. says ukraine is at a critical moment in the war against russia. michael mcfaul and ben rhodes are here on what's next after the president's historic trip to kyiv. and later, mike pence versus ron desantis. we'll talk to regain and jonathan capehart about the florida governor moving into donald trump's lane, though it might have gop presidential hopefuls on edge tonight. the 11th hour just getting underway on a very busy wednesday. bus wednesday.

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>> as nato's eastern flank, you are the front lines of our collective defense. and you know better than anyone what's at stake in this conflict. article five is a sacred commitment the united states has made. we will defend literally every inch of nato, every inch of nato. >> just some of what we heard from president biden during a meeting with nato allies in eastern europe. today was the last day in the presidents trip that included that historic visit to kyiv. hunter biden's visit -- after biden's visit attention has turned out to eastern ukraine, where russia has launched an offensive. our own richard engel has more

from the front lines. >> ukrainian troops are digging in to stop a new russian offensive in the east. >> back to the trenches. >> conditions are atrocious, after heavy snow last week temperatures are warming up. the only consolation is all of the mud slows russia's advance. lieutenant bogdan is in charge. we met bob than a year ago, right before russian troops invaded. we will lose our country. we will fight them with our bare hands if we have to, he said. since then, bogdan has been at the front. [sound of gunfire] a russian mortar tore through his left side. but after two months in the hospital, it was back to battle. nearly all of his 150 soldiers were killed or injured over the past year. and now, the soldiers say russian troops are 800 yards away. >> and they are just up there? >> yeah. >> and do they have similar

trenches to this? >> yes, something like this. [sound of artillery] >> but now there's a problem. a russian drone is overhead. >> so there is some small arms fire right here. >> yes, yes he says. the soldiers fire a rocket propelled grenade. [sound of artillery] lieutenant bogdan tells us it's like this every day, or worth. >> why does this war matter to americans do you think? >> because it's a war for democracy. ukrainian russian war is a war of democracy versus russia dictatorship. so, it's important. >> a fight, ukrainians say, they will take to the end. the head of ukrainian intelligence tonight said russia's new offensive -- such low quality that some frontline commanders barely even know what's happening. but he won things could get worse as russia is redoubling its efforts to produce ammunition.

richard engel, nbc news, dnipro, ukraine. >> back with us tonight, michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia and emerson bce international affairs analyst. and ben rhodes is here. former deputy national security adviser for president obama. ben, president biden covered a lot of ground on this trip. what were your biggest takeaways? >> well, look, i think that the visit to kyiv is going to be what sticks in our heads. and i think that shows the progress that has been made in the last year in terms of upending the expectations at the beginning of the war. you would've thought, i'm sure vladimir putin thought, that he would be visiting ukraine before an american president. and the fact that he was able to visit, that kyiv is still free and still standing strong as they said, is the message of what has been accomplished in the last year. now, we are also at a very pivotal moment in the war, we're in the coming weeks and months, as richard angles report showed, we're going to

see two theories put the test. the russian idea that they can wear down the ukrainians on that front line by throwing basically bodies at that front line through the extra mobilization as they've done, and kind of wear down both ukrainians and the allies supporting them. the ukrainian bet is that with the additional advanced weaponry, tanks, artillery, other things they want from the western alliance, they can now mount more sophisticated offenses in the coming months and really break through the russian lines and take back territory. we're going to know in the next few months. so, it felt like both sides of this kind of regrouping, to living their message. president putin had his own propaganda displays today as well. that with the chinese today, that's his most important partner in the world. the u.s. is meeting with its allies. it was like both sides taking stock of the last year and regrouping for some very pivotal moments in the weeks to months to come. >> i want to dig into that chinese meeting in a moment. but michael, tell us what are your biggest takeaways? same question to you. this was a busy trip. >> i agree with van.

i think that will be a heroic trip. the photos of them walking around the square, him just getting there in of itself was a major achievement. and i can tell you, having talked to ukrainians since then, it was a major boost for them in terms of morale to see the president of the united states in the capital. remember, a year ago almost the day a year ago, kyiv was under siege. they were fighting for their lives there. so, smolenski was asked to leave by us. let's be honestly. that's what he said very famously. i don't need a ride, i need ammunition. that is when they thought they were going to lose the capital. the fact that the president of the united states could go to the capitol and think was a major symbolic victory for the ukrainians and for those that are helping them, including the united states of america. >> well michael, what did you think when putin said yesterday that russia is pulling back from the last nuclear arms treaty with the u.s.? you were involved in negotiate that thing the first time

around. >> i was. in fact, ben and i were together in prague when president obama signed it with president medvedev in 2010. this was a major achievement. by the way, it was not a gift to the united states of america. president medvedev signed it because he thought it was an russians national interest. i know is in our interest. we reduced significantly the number of nuclear weapons in the world. and most importantly, we preserved an improved and inspections regime so that we had visibility to what they were doing with their nuclear weapons, and vice versa. by walking away from it, and remember they suspended, they didn't walk away entirely, so there's still some hope there. but by walking away, it's not in russia's interest, it's not an america's interest, and it's not in the interest of the red states. i think it was a big mistake. >> let me go back to the last point you made, china. during this trip, china's top diplomat, where were they? in moscow, one day ahead of the one year anniversary of the

invasion. what does that tell you? >> look, the chinese don't do anything by accident. and that's a very strong message, frankly, of support for vladimir putin. they are careful not to endorse the war. but they knew what they were doing. and by turning up there, it makes putin look less diplomatically isolated. and it frankly underscores one of the challenges we've had, which is yes, the democratic world's united, the united states and our allies in europe and asia are united. but china is still buying a lot of russian energy. that's kind of keeping the revenue flowing into russia. and you've seen other countries, india and others, similarly kind of hedging. and i think here the main question is u.s. intelligence raised whether or not china would start providing weapons, legal assistance to russia. i think we would not be saying that publicly if we weren't trying to deter china or try to blow the whistle on something where concern might happen underneath the table. but make no mistake, stephanie. this is a profound moment. because china never gets involved in european conflicts

like this. for them to take a more active role in support of russia's a seismic shift. and then saying we're now going to involve ourselves in a conflict that we just a few years ago would've stayed totally out of. now, i think russia will want more. they want the chinese to backfill more technology that's being choked off by u.s. sanctions. they want to back fill the manufacturing base for the military industrial complex. i'm sure they love weapons. so another thing to watch, importantly in the coming months, as whether that chinese support starts to dial up a bit more. she jinping's roommate, reported to be going to moscow as a follow-up to his foreign minister. that will be a meeting to watch. that's another milestone on the calendar here. and it shows the extent to which this war or conflict is globalized in the autocratic camp versus the democratic camp. >> michael, what's your take on this now more public russia chinese alliance? >> well, they've been close partners for a long time. i think chinese reelection

relations today are better than they've ever been. maybe for a few weeks after the chinese revolutions, but it didn't last very long. it is no accident that he's there and they met and he met with putin. i think they are still trying to have their cake and eat it too, the chinese. it was very striking to me. i was at the munich security conference, and i listen to his speech, wang yi speech, but i also listen to vice president harris's speech where she called them out, just as been said. and said you better not give the military assistance. that suggests to me that we know something is going on. and we call them out. and now let's see what they'll do. i think it's too early to conclude that they're ready to go all in. i think they've played it very delicately. she jinping has not endorsed this war. they did not vote with russia. only five countries voted against the rest the world to endorse this war with russia. china was not there. but they want to keep maintaining the relationship with mr. putin, but also not

break the sanctions, not break entirely our relationship. it will be interesting to see if they do provide military assistance. i agree with ben, that is a big change in china's foreign policy. i hope it does not happen. >> michael mcfaul, ben rhodes, thank you both for being here. every time we see you, you make a smarter. when we come back, you know who is not in the room when president biden got republicans to not to touch social security and medicare? mike pence. now he wants to cut -- our least have cuts on the table. that, and all the other fractures within the gop when the 11th hour continues. the 11th hour continues. among my patients, i often see them have teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum

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what desantis though with disney in florida? >> i have concerns about the follow-up. look, disney stepped into the fray. they lost. -- attacks against authority. that was beyond the scope of what i as a conservative limited government republican and be prepared to do. >> well, there you have it. former vice president mike pence drawing a clear line between himself and potential 2024 opponent ron desantis. pence praised desantis for, quote, protecting parents rights. but said going after their special district was a step too far. and earlier this week, ron desantis took a big step into trump territory. he went on a multistate tour to

law enforcement groups and show how, quote, anti-crime he has. back with us tonight to discuss, to my fears pulitzer prize-winning author jonathan capehart, and associate editor of the washington post and anchor of course of the saturday show and sunday's show right here on msnbc sea. and regain joins us, cofounder of the lincoln project. he's worked on a number of gop campaigns, including john mccain, arnold sorts in a, or in short to bush. jonathan, it seems like mike pence is trying to carve out a lane for himself. will it work? is anyone in that lane? >> no, it's not going to work. donald trump is still the person to beat in this race. mike pence seems to have forgotten that the man he is hoping to run against sent a mob after him. and that mob, those people who support donald trump, still support donald trump, to the

exception of no one else. so, he can say all sorts of things to differentiate himself from ron desantis, donald trump, nikki haley, anyone else who gets into the race. and he's still going to have that major problem. and just as a side note, how is it that you can support ron desantis on his unbelievable stop woke act activities, but then say it's gone too far he's gone after disney. that's just an after effect of the stop woke situation. disney, he won after disney because disney said that the bill that mike pence says he supports was bad for the state. so, i don't know what this lane is that mike pence is trying to carve self. but it looks pretty wooded and rugged. >> read, pence is also breaking with trump when it comes to medicare and social security. where he's not saying outright

that he wants to cut them, but he's saying they should be on the table for the long term to take a closer look. now, we know pence making a move like this is going to infuriate a ton of people who do not want those benefits touched. but the truth is, at some point, someone is going to have to take a look, because the money is going to run out. are there any candidates addressing any of these issues in a constructive way? >> well, no, obviously, because there's very little constructive that's going on. and i would say this as well, pants, as jonathan noted, as i've said before, the only person running against donald trump, or about to run against donald trump that makes any sense is mike pence, because trump actually try to kill him. revenge seems like a pretty good deal here. but i would say on the part of social security and medicare, you know, this is something where pence is actually lining up with the ultra maga in the united states house, now controlled by marjorie taylor greene and the like, which they

want to cut everything. they are willing to take the whole country off the cliff, whether or not it's entitlements, whether or not it's the debt ceiling, whether or not is shutting down the government on a thelma and louise type trip, because they want the chaos. and pence is desperately trying to find a place where you can insert himself into this. jonathan is exactly right, there are no lines here, stephanie. if there was a higher lane markers, it's been torn up, demolished, you know, trump is driving, you know, like a drunken semi truck driver. and iran else is trying to figure where he goes so they can follow him. there is no possible way for any these people to figure out where to run next, the cars if you sound reasonable, the maga world is are you and call you a rino and if you go with the maga, the eight, ten, 12% of normal republican voters and independent voters, will say, i want nothing more to do with that, we got of a trump, i don't want it anymore. >> but wasn't entitlement reform part of paul ryan's champ? he's not ultra maga.

>> no, but look, we're sorting this instate ian rand thing, where alice shrugged has now become the guttenberg bible us on these guys. i read it. i was like, this is amazing. i didn't realize it's a terrible book that's really poorly written with a lot of crazy stuff in it. so, this is where we are now. the fact that paul ryan and alan greenspan and all these people. we should not be where we are, stephanie. this is when those things where every man and woman and child now for themselves. that is the antithesis of america. it's not socialism, right, the idea of the united states was an every man for himself. it's we do what we can do for ourselves. and those who can't do for themselves, we see what we can do to help them. and this is where i think you have to understand that for paul ryan or for any of them, right, it's really about how do we help get government out of business in any way. and this isn't just the poll

rinds of the world. it's a lot of the sort of weird libertarian stuff coming out of the tech sector to. and give it to wall street or someone else, who ultimately, when they reckon, will have to pay for it and then increase the debt even more than republicans already have. >> jonathan, let's talk about a different subject, the truth. one of his stops on his anti-crime tour that desantis said in staten island, during that stop, he got on the podium and bragged about florida's crime stats. here's the things, for stat sake, borough president mark levine pointed out jacksonville, florida, had a per capita homicide rate nearly four times that of new york city last year. so, when ron desantis gets up there and makes claims like this, to the people of staten island, to those maga voters, do they even know what the truth is? because he's not telling it. >> well, i don't know if they care. this is where the republicans reliance on crime really enters

to their benefit. because for dramas sake, of course they're going to think that new york city is way worse when it comes to crime than anywhere else, or any major american city, which happened to be run by democratic mayors, democratic legislatures. but you know, i didn't see where those stats came from. but i do know the think tank third way did report last year, and just put a new one out that shows in red states or states that voted for donald trump the crime rate is higher in a lot of those states and they are in new york or any of the states that voted for joe biden. so, i'm glad the borough president pointed that out. i'm glad we're bringing this up. people need to understand that crime is a national issue. no one owns it. but if republicans want to keep talking about it, then it is incumbent upon me as an opinion

writer, you may be as an anchor, but all of us to say what the facts are. >> the truth matters, but only if you hear it. so, it's up to all of us to keep telling it. reed galen, jonathan capehart, great to have you both here tonight. when we come back, donald trump bash is biden's response to the ohio train derailment. but it seems he has forgotten what he rollback when he was in office. well, he's in lock. we are going to drop his memory when the 11th hour continues. hour continues heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it!

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into many cases, your goodness and perseverance were met with indifference and betrayal in some cases. biden and fema said they would not send federal aid to east palestine under any circumstance. >> -- yes, donald trump visited east palestine, ohio today. but for fact sake, let's get something straight about what he said. the train derailment happened on february 3rd. and according to the white house, personnel from the epa where they are before dawn the next day. by the way, if trump narrative sense familiar, it is probably because it is the same stuff -- the lies -- that fox news is dishing out. multiple house there have suggested east palestine isn't

getting proper attention because it is largely a white conservative community. that is not true. but we know that, thanks to those dominion court documents, all sorts of fox news hosts are very comfortable saying things on tv that they know is not true. joining me now to discuss is jay rosen, and why you associate professor of journalism. jay rosen, you wrote something pretty recently, a detailed, thoughtful twitter thread, that details that fox is not really a news organization, but what it really is. can you share that? >> yeah, i see fox as the commercial wing of a maga movement that has overtaken the republican party. and what it makes is resent meant news. who teresa and -- what's new and different to resent. that kind of product, resentment news, can also become a source of power. and so fox news is kind of

tricky to understand. because it presents itself as a media property. but it is equally a political machine. and the curious thing is both the republican party and fox news have had to learn that this power of resentment can be turned against them. >> how so? >> that's what the court documents are about in the dominion case. it's that they tell the story of how, after the 2020 election, the power that fox news had to grip its audiences in -- was turned around and aimed at fox because of the arizona call and because they were people in the network who actually told the truth on television. and that caused accompany crisis, which is so interesting to think about, stephanie ruhle. if responsible journalism by a

handful of fox people resulted in a company crisis, that means the company is not a news company. because giving truthful news actually was a big problem. so, that's what the court documents are so fascinating for. it's this tale of the tables are being turned on fox -- >> the court documents were also fascinating because they show that multiple hosts believed one thing, but we're texting one thing. in fact, in many cases, we're ripping on donald trump and then saying something completely different on television -- given that, how do you think this case is going to turn out out? >> i think what's so fascinating about that is that sometimes we call fox an opinion network or we say that the opinion side -- which is the prime time side -- is different than the new side. but in this case, we see that fox is not really even opinion journalism either.

because true opinion that fox hosts and leaders had about sydney powell, for example, about the case for the election being stolen -- they don't believe any of that. >> okay. then will they be able to say at the end of this, okay, fine. you've got us, we are just entertainment. and that will just be embarrassing? or will there be multibillion dollar consequences? because only they will change things. >> well, according to a lot of first amendment lawyers, this case has the possibility of being a huge judgment against fox. >> why do you think this train derailment in east palestine has so many on the far right so fired up? i mean, i saw don jr. today. biden did nothing, they gave no money -- all this absolutely false. and in fact, it was donald trump actively rolling back regulations when he was in office, that possibly --

the dangerous situation that they were in. >> race. they can make a race claim. that because it's an area of the country that wear white working class people predominant, he is ignoring them. and it's kind of an absurd argument. but it's perfect for resentment. >> all right. last question -- these 44,000 hours of tapes that kevin mccarthy has turned over to tucker carlson, saying, he promised to make them public. well, you are not making them public if you are just sending them to tucker carlson. but how worried are you? at the end of the day, could these just be nothing burger? like, some of their dramatic hearings that make big headlines but result in nothing? >> i'm sure he will get some outrage from it. he will get some resentment generated from it within the world of fox. but i don't see it becoming a huge story. it's partly because he is confining the story to tucker carlson, which is a very weird

way to release something that you really want out there. >> good point. jay rosen, really good to meet you in person. >> so good to meet you. >> that's when we come, back a real medical diagnosis for a mother of four that had her preparing for the absolute worst. even her children without a parent, until a chance encounter turned her despair into hope. that's when the 11th hour continues. continues. now adt professionally installs google nest products... cool. you're all set. so your home is safe and smart. we're gunna miss you. you can check in on your home. arm the system, we should go. manage your system from virtually anywhere. (thump) (scream) and get intelligent alerts,

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tonight -- a lifesaving twist of fate. maggie vespa brings us the story of one woman's unbelievable determination in the face of a terrifying medical diagnosis. >> two years ago, 28-year-old nicole hait was working full-time and raising two kids in rural illinois when symptoms struck. >> we started having headaches,

like, quite a bit. then i started having washing sound in my ear, just -- migraines, vomiting and all day. >> an mri revealed a rare diagnosis -- or a viele -- it's like a bunch of christmas sites lights -- >> in a coal is a tipping ticking timebomb for a possible stroke. she a doctor after doctor, 17-ing it in operable. >> i -- grandpa sean because my dad had died a couple years ago. reality hit hard. >> nicole wrote notes to those she feared leaving behind. >> if you are reading this now i have gone to heaven with grandpa sean. when you need me, watch for signs. feel your heart and i'm there with you. >> then, a promise. >> mommy is going to get the help she needs. >> one day, at work, a conversation overheard by a customer who, against all odds,

could help. >> her son was learning -- in boston. it just gives me chills. >> patel's neurosurgeon dr. miram puts out -- cases this severe. nicole would have her surgery. >> -- she was courageous, very brave. >> knowing flying could be fatal, she and mom drove 16 hours to boston. after a 12 hour surgery, nichols avm was gone for good. a year later, cured and engage, she's reveling in holidays and things she feared she would once myths. >> people just take so much for granted. we are going to have some real experiences now. because i'm ready. >> to live life? >> maggie vespa, -- stockton, illinois. >>