beautiful spot in the world to him. and she's like, sitting on top of the world. >> we all knew that my mom, myself, we'd all eventually be there. just not in the order that it seems to have happened. >> and here, on the little strip on i-80, when dover will still raises his granting welcome. but he points to a place a little older now. as if the neon lights turn up along the desert casinos had picked up a layer of grief. this sunday, outrage. this sunday, outrage. the brutal police beating video of tyre nichols shocks the nation and raises more questions about policing in america. >> he was a human pinata for

those police officers. >> no mother should go through what i'm going through right now. >> five fired memphis police officers have been charged with murder. >> i'm struggling to find a stronger word, but i would just tell you i was appalled. >> will congress try again to push for more police reform? i'll talk to republican congressman jim jordan of ohio, the chairman of the judiciary committee. plus, subpoena power. >> the fbi has been weaponized against president trump and clearly has covered up for sitting president joe biden. >> but democrats warn that it's all about settling political scores. >> let's call it what it really is, the republican committee to obstruct justice. and giving tanks. the u.s. and germany agree to send battle tanks to ukraine, a move many once feared would risk escalating the war with putin.

>> it will enhance ukraine's capacity to achieve its strategic objectives. is time running out? our support for ukraine is starting to fade. i'll talk with the former cia director. also -- and stephen heys, editor of "the dispatch." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." good sunday morning. after the murder of george floyd, there seemed to be a bipartisan consensus that something had to be done on the national level, but nothing happened. now we're watching this brutal beating of tyre nichols in

memphis, tennessee, and asking, how can this be happening again, and will this be the moment that sparks real action nationally? look, it's not a secret americans are losing confidence in their institutions. our poll paint as picture of a deeply pessimistic country, distrustful in general, with an overall outlook that's historically bleak. asked to describe where america is headed to in the next year, more than two-thirds use the terms hopeful, wrong track, downhill, and uncertain, both sides of the aisle. 71% of the nation says america is on the wrong track. we're in the longest track in the history of our poll. it's been nearly 2 1/2 years of this pessimism. it's longer than the 2008 financial crisis, and now the country is reeling after the release of this graphic video. we're here to warn you again,

this video is very disturbing. an account caught on police surveillance and body cameras. memphis police officers punched, kicked, pepper sprsprayed, and swung a baton at tyre nichols. he was pulled over for what police said was due to reckless driving. but chief davis says investigators have been unable to substantiate that claim. again, this video is disturbing. here's a portion. >> get the [ bleep ] down, get the [ bleep ] down. >> i didn't do anything. >> turn your ass around. >> all right, all right, all right, all right. >> hold him down, hold him down. >> all right, all right, all right. no, no, don't do that, okay. >> get on the [ bleep ] ground. >> okay. >> get on the ground. >> i'm going to tase your ass. >> all right, i'm on the ground.

on the ground. >> right now, turn around. get on the ground. >> i am. >> i'm going to tase you. get on the ground >> i am >> down. i'll take you. >> okay, all right. >> after an officer pepper sprayed nichols' face and used a taser on him even though he was not resisting, nichols then twisted himself away from officers and started to run away. minutes later officers caught up with him. he was less than 100 yards from his home. >> hey. >> give me your hand, give me your hand. >> you're going to get sprayed again. >> watch out, watch out. >> mom! mom! mom! mom! mom! >> hey. >> all right, all right. >> give me your [ bleep ] hand.

>> all right, okay, all right. >> huh? >> give me your hands. >> i'll spray your ass again. >> give me your hand. >> all right. >> give me your hand. >> after officers stopped beating nichols, it took 28 minutes for the ambulance to take him to the hospital. he worked for fedex and had a son. the justice department is conducting a civil rights investigation into the death. two shelby county sheriff's deputies have also been relieved of duty pending an intarrant investigation including two members of the memphis fire department. awe of them were seen in that video. protests erupted across the country. in a statement late on friday president biden called the

killing, quote, yet another painful reminder. the pain and exhaustion that black and brown americans experience every single day. >> for me to find out that my son was calling my name and i was only feets away and did not even hear him, you have no clue how i feel right now, no clue. >> i spoke with tyre's mother, and expressed my condolences and told her that i was going to be making the case to the congress. it has a lot to say and do with the image of america. it has a lot to do with whether or not we are the country we say we are. >> and joining me now is republican congressman jim jordan of ohio. he chairs the house judiciary committee, and, in fact, any police reform bill would begin with him. welcome back. let me start with what we saw.

senator tim scott, let me put up a quote he said. he said, we've been here too many times before. we cannot continue down this path. americans cannot stand silent. let it serve as a call to action. >> i don't know that there's any law that can stop that level of evil. a lack of disrespect for law. i don't that any law, any training, any reform is going to change -- this man was handcuffed, they continued to beat him. and i was actually reminded. it's hard to watch the whole thing. i was reminded when we had a hearing two years ago when george floyd's brother came and testified in front of the judiciary committee, and it was one of those moments were fact and truth and emotion all came together. he said something during the questioning portion of the hearing. he said, life is precious.

and it was one of those moments that grabbed everyone, both parties. and the fact that we saw these five individuals not have any respect -- again, i don't think they represent the officers of law enforcement. i don't know that there's anything we could do to stop what happened in the video. >> you don't think it's anything. >> there's a grant out there, we offered amendments to the bill. i think there are some things we can look at. it's a difference in the philosophy. democrats think it's a new law that will fix something terrible >> i get the ideological. i think the tim scott bill had a lot of financial incentives, and the george floyd bill was some mandatories. why not a federal ban on choke holds?

that's agreed upon, right? >> i'm for the best training possible. what i'm not for is what we saw there. i don't know that any training, any ban -- there was no choke hold used there. they continued to beat mr. nichols. i don't know that that's the answer. but, again, we'll look at what we think makes sense to help this, to make sure they have the proper training, but no amount of training is going to challenge what we saw in that video. >> i understand that, but why not set some minimum standards? the chief sort of acted unilaterally that we don't always see with leadership. look, most people don't want to commit murder, but we have a federal standard when it comes to murder. >> if becould incentivize certain things, this is a law enforcement issue. you start getting the federal government involved, they screw

it up so many times. one of the items in the democratic legislation a few years ago was some kind of federal registry. then you get concerns, is every complaint going to be there? i know some databases get it wrong and members of congress get put on the no-fly list. and then you had senator mayorkas come and testify and couldn't tell us about those on the terrorist watch list. there's all kinds of problems with that. >> we've had issues of wandering cops where you could go across state lines. >> that's a good point. >> this is why people want this database. >> that's a good point. there should be some way. i don't know if you need it to be the federal government. if a police officer is moving from indianapolis to columbus, there should be some way to know if there had been adjudicated complaints against the guy so you know what you're getting. >> don't you have to do it on a

federal level? >> i would much prefer it be done at the state and local level. >> i hear you, but i literally did a special about a wandering cop who was jude indicated from delaware to maryland. that's across state lines, you see what i mean. once you have across-stat-line issues, it has to be at the federal level. >> if a cop is coming from one jurisdiction to another, they have to let you know what happened in the previous jurisdiction. the other thing that's happening is we're not getting enough good police officers applying. i remember flying through the phoenix airport talking with officers there. they don't get enough people applying, taking the test because there's been this defund the police and attack on law enforcement. they may have 100 openings and get ten people apply.

>> aren't you making a case for federal standards? if you make a case for strong standards -- >> we shouldn't have this whole attitude about defunding police and disparaging the police because a vast majority aren't doing what you're seeing in the video. >> i get you. i get there are people arguing that. i think here -- >> they were a couple of years ago. >> that's not what the george floyd bill is about. >> a number of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle were talking about defund the police. i've got over 20 defund the police -- >> these not been the federal. let me ask you this. i know you've got other investigations you want to do. should this now be at the top of your list? >> this was certainly in many ways -- weaponization of government and abuse of the state and authority against the people that they're actually

supposed to serve, but we've got a number of things we'll look at in the judiciary committee and select committee as well. >> explain the difference between the select committee which you chair, which you're calling the weaponization of the government, and the judiciary committee. you're also the chair of that. what's the distinction here? why both? >> that's what leader -- speaker mccarthy wanted. there are members on it, the intelligence committee, homeland security are part of it. we've had it because of what we've seen with various agencies. the fbi spied on the president's campaign. the fbi has targetted parents. the fbi has done a number of things. the fbi raided the home of a president 91 days before the

election and just the last day we learned a former special agent in the new york division was taking money from a russian. this was counterintelligence in new york taking money from -- not just any russian, the russian. >> you know who the american adviser was, the former adviser to donald trump. >> i understand. >> that raises troubling signs here. >> he also paid christopher steele who was the key guy. guess who was involved? mr. mcgonagle. the special agent with the fbi. >> are you going to look at the role paul manafort played? >> to the sense it may come in.

we're focused a number of things. i haven't even gotten to the department of homeland security. >> i want to unpack it a little bit. you talk about the fbi a abusing power when it comes to parents and the school board. school board members were getting death threats. these weren't idol things. these weren't parents yelling and screaming. they were death threats to elected officials. the fbi got a tip. should they not look into a death threat? >> the school write as letter on september 29th. five days later there's a letter sent to 101 people around the country saying set up this line. the fbi sends out an email to agents across the country, put these designations on the parents. think of the timeline. that all happens in 22 days. when have you ever seen the federal government move that threat? >> they're death threats.

>> let me finish this. 25 parents get reported on that snitch line. they all get investigated. the fbi shows up at their door. guess how many have been charged? zero, zero. >> did the fbi not do their job? if they were trumping something up, wouldn't they have found something? this is a loudoun county school board member. if she doesn't quit or resign before the end of the year, we will kill her. but first we will kill you. and then this, you will be removed one way or the other. >> one of the people they went to investigate was a mom. they said because she's in the group moms for liberty and she has guns at her house, let's get her. you don't think that has a chilling impact on other parents? so there's a school board meeting tonight. mr. jones is thinking about talking at the school board meeting. he says, maybe i won't go.

i know mrs. smith had a meeting with the police last week. this committee is about protecting the constitution, in particular the first amendment. >> you know, many of the things you want to investigation when i look at them in isolation, i think they're fair targets. the problem is when you look at it, you want to talk about the weaponization of the justice department. you don't want to look at anything that happened during the trump years. he subpoenaed data, he secretly obtained phone records, pressured the justice department, donald trump did. he even tried to change the leadership at the justice department. >> chuck, we want to protect the first amendment. >> if you're concerned about the weaponization of the justice department in the biden years, why not investigate the trump years? >> we're going to look at threats to the first amendment. what elon musk through the

twitter files has displayed is unbelievable. the idea that fbi was paying twitter $3.4 million -- >> that's not how it works. >> do you think it's okay for the fbi to be meeting every week and suppressing information about the hunter biden story? >> that's a private organization that made that decision. >> with pressure from the government. i can understand it. i don't think it's right. but there shouldn't be pressure from the government. when is the fbi just going to stay out of the election process? let the american people decide. in 2016 they spied on trump's campaign. in 2020 they helped suppress the hunter biden story. 2022 they raid the home of a former president. maybe let the american people decide. >> you keep talking about this raid on donald trump. the amount of time -- there was

nine months between the initial reaction before they even turned it over to the justice department. the subpoena was issued 60 days before they actually executed the subpoena, and more importantly, the ontario time the public found out about it is because donald trump told them about it. you paint it as a picture that the fbi did this, this, and this when it was actually a year and a half of donald trump not complying. a year and a half. this is not some sort of proof that somehow that they weaponized and were playing politics. >> they raided trump's home, they haven't raided biden's home. >> by the way, he had 60 days to comply before they actually executed the search warrant. >> president biden had documents in a room provided and in the

garage. donald trump was the only president. >> you're worrying about the chinese and hunter biden. are you worried about the chinese and donald trump? >> i'm not. they took pictures of the documents at the trump house and no -- in fact, it's not just me who would like to know what went on here. senator warner said last week he would like to see pictures. they took pictures of the folders in trump's home. >> the issue isn't what biden did. >> it's equal treatment under the law. that's the issue. >> you never seem to see the same conspiratorial problems when it's a republican. >> they were investigated for four years and they continue do it. >> do you not trust bill barr and mr. durham? >> the mueller investigation, they had 2 1/2 years of this and they were going to find russian

-- >> they investigated all these concerned that you had about the fbi, made up snitches, all these things. they didn't find anything. why do they want to -- >> kevin clinesmith found it. >> they're not finding what you claim is out there. why couldn't durham find it? >> the durham investigation is not done. the mueller investigation is done. what did they find. >> you spent $40 million on it and it consumed the country for 2 1/2 years and there was nothing there. >> let me ask you about subpoena compliance. you didn't comply with the

subpoena from the white house. why should you expect them to comply? >> i was very reluctant to deal with these guys because we caught them lying umpteen times. they played a video clip when i was in an interview. they played a video clip insinuating one thing. they cut the clip, what i said on the front. i said the late justice ruth bader ginsburg -- when you catch a group lying about it -- >> tell us what you talked about with donald trump? >> i'll be happy to -- >> no, no, no. >> i don't divulge conversations with my colleagues and the president of the united states. >> has the current special counsel that is looking into

january 6th, have they subpoenaed you for anything? >> no. >> if they do, will you comply? >> of course. >> when do you expect the first hearing? >> tuesday or wednesday depending on what the minority leader does with the -- there's a rule they have to deal with. but we were planning on the first hearing being on the border situation. >> do you support kevin mccarthy? >> he's done a great job. he's the speaker of the house. you're going to see our team together. kevin has kept our team together better than any leader we have. >> obviously we had a lot we could have gotten to. i hope you'll come back. >> i will. >> thank you for coming on and sharing your views with us. when we come back, will arming west ukraine with tanks mark a turning point? robert gates joins me next. robert gates joins me next

welcome back. this week president biden

announced the united states will send 31 abrams tanks to ukraine a move the pentagon resisted for months saying they would be too difficult to operate and maintain for the ukrainian military. the announcement followed pressure by u.s. allies particularly germany which refused to send their tanks unless the u.s. gave them cover and did the same. what is interesting is in our new nbc news poll 50% of americans disapprove of president biden's handling of the ukraine war right now. just 49% support providing ukraine more weapons and funding going forward, numbers that suggest biden may have a timeline when it comes to political support for u.s. involvement. it is not just a partisan divide but a generational one. americans who lived through the cold war have a memory of the berlin wall are more likely to support funding. if you don't have a memory of it, you are less likely to support it. just hours after the u.s. and european allies announced the new tanks russia unleashed air strikes targeting the power grid and killing 11 people. ukraine's president zelenskyy called on allies to toughen sanctions and ukrainian

officials have now asked for f-16 fighter jets. how does it end? joining me now is former secretary and head of the cia robert gates who served under eight u.s. presidents of both parties. good to see you. >> thank you. >> we will lower the temperature here a little bit. i want to start with something you wrote with secretary condoleezza rice about two weeks ago. about the war right now. we are convinced that putin believes time is on his side. that he can wear down the ukrainians and that the u.s. and european unity and support for ukraine will eventually erode and fracture. to be sure the russian economy and people will suffer as the war continues, but russians have endured far worse. you just saw what i was leading in with. we have -- public support is there, but it's fading. it looked like this week nato support is there, but it could fracture. how much time does the west and ukraine have here?

>> i think we still have quite a bit of time, chuck. i think there is still broad bipartisan support in the congress for helping ukraine. when it comes to public opinion and so on, this is basically the responsibility of the president to educate people about why this is necessary, why must we confront putin in ukraine so we don't end up confronting him somewhere where our own forces are directly involved. >> do you think he has not done that? i feel like he has done that. i don't know if the public is listening. part of me wonders does the memory of afghanistan and iraq cloud the trust the american public may or may not have with these things? >> well, it is one of those messages that has to be repeated over and over and over again. you can't make one speech or give a press conference or something like that. you just have to keep pounding away. you also -- i think it's also incumbent on the members of congress who are supportive of this when they go back into their districts to help the president in terms of helping people understand why we need to help ukraine.

i think the alliance is holding together really well. i think there's -- if you had said a year ago that europe will go from more than 40% dependency on russia for oil and gas and they're now less than a year later zero to 15% dependent, that is extraordinary. >> i was going to say, look, our current politics make it impossible for anybody to give credit to the other side anymore, but this has been so far one of the few times, it seems like, where this policy of essentially let's arm somebody else, where it's working without putting our own boots on the ground and seems to be working. what is the pitfall here where it could suddenly stop working? >> i think if we falter or if our continuing support were to begin to flag, if the europeans were to begin to fray, i don't really see that happening right now. i think the europeans are being

very tough, and i think that, as i said, there's a lot of bipartisan support. >> russia was your portfolio back in the day at the cia and then some. what you know about putin, what do you think the real red line is with him? he has had a lot of bluster and so far we've crossed all the supposed red lines that he was drawing about us supporting ukraine or this or that, nato doing this or that. none of it has come. he has had a lot of bluster. is there any red line he is serious about that we should be concerned about? >> i think potentially crimea could be because their big naval base in crimea basically gives them control of the black sea. i think it has strategic importance. putin believes it's his destiny to recreate the russian empire as my old mentor used to say without ukraine there can be no russian empire so he is obsessed with retaking ukraine. he will hang in there.

i think that he does believe that time is on his side, supporting the u.s., supporting europe and so on, will fray -- support in europe and so on will fray and he is doing what russian armies have always done and that is sending large numbers of relatively poorly equipped, poorly trained conscripts to the front lines and in the belief that mass will overcome. >> anything you would have advised president biden to do differently in this case? >> i think the only thing i would have said is that a lot of this could have been done sooner. you know, they're talking about it potentially being six months, a year, or more before the abrams tanks get there. i think the key thing about the abrams tank decision was that it unlocked the germans. >> the abrams tanks are probably not going to make that much difference when we're talking 37 versus how many leopard tanks we want to get over there now. >> our allies, poland, germany, and others have hundreds of these leopard tanks which are a

very good tank. >> you have a legacy in washington of being a guy who sort of fixes dumb problems meaning like stuff like why isn't this fixed? >> it's a target-rich environment. >> it is. how would you -- this classified document situation our politics finds itself in, is this something the bureaucracy should fix or is there something more nefarious? >> i think it's about people being more responsible. i think there's an element of carelessness. in some cases there may be intent to take the documents. i think maybe we ought to look at the way transitions take place. >> right. >> so that there's a more orderly process. >> the pentagon is very orderly. it is my understanding the pentagon has it pretty orderly when it comes to classified documents. >> basically don't take anything. >> right. like that is the point. is that what we ought to clamp down on here? >> certainly in terms of what people have in their own residences and so on, yes. >> very quickly, you've spent a

lot of time on the ncaa speaking of problem organizations. does congress need to intervene on college sports? >> i'm also hesitant to get congress involved because you usually end up with a solution you don't want, but the problem that the conference -- the athletic conferences are facing now, they're all multi-state conferences, and every state is passing a different law with different rules and so there is no consistency for any of the conferences, and so i think there is a need for a federal law that standardizes this so that it is a level playing field. >> the issue of multi-state problems has come up in two different interviews today on two different topics. secretary gates, always good to see you. >> thanks. up next president biden said he was outraged and deeply pained after watching the police beating of tyre nichols. will washington use this moment as a call to action? panel is next.

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>> welcome back, panelists here, moderator of "washington week" and the co-anchor of "newshour" on pbs and steven

hayes and former democratic senator claire mccaskill. welcome to all of you. i'll start with the lawmaker because you have been there when they tried to do police reform a few times now. the most recent time it didn't happen. stuck on qualified immunity. should we have any hope this time is different? >> i'm always optimistic, and i do think this is brutal. people who think that body cams on police officers are not doing that they should, i get that. this young man died. but wu we now know exactly what happened, so it does make a difference. we are to the point that if you do this, a camera is going to catch it. i've got to applaud memphis and that police chief how quickly they brought this out to the public and how quickly they

charged them with murder. >> i want to play something the chief said about why she was so quick and forthcoming. here is what she said to tom llamas. >> what i wanted to deliver for this family at least was that first step of justice for them, to quickly deal with these officers within the scope of my power and to help facilitate this moment to the da's office as well. it was obvious to me that what i saw was beyond the scope of what is condoned in this police department and any department i have ever worked in before. >> ameesh, a different police chief might have gone to internal affairs. a different police chief might have waited a longer period of time. she -- this was a case where her leadership mattered in how this was handled. she didn't follow a new protocol. she created her own. >> she did make sure to try to deliver and act very quickly. the issue is that a different

police chief can do something different today. >> right. >> if there is a tyre nichols today, a rowvaughn wells' son today who for 67 minutes is beaten and drag, a different police chief can do that because we don't have the -- when the police kill you it is the government killing you but he says he doesn't know what law would change that. so many civil rights leaders i have talked to, families who would vehemently disagree because we don't know how many tyre nichols are there because we don't have that. also i want to say this was such a horrific and terrible video. it is so problematic that we see these officers tying their shoes not rendering medical aid. it seems to me that this is ordinary. it is terrible but also very familiar. so to me as i'm struggling to cover this, i really see this and think to myself how many other people have been in this situation and we have video, it doesn't mean they'll get justice. by the way justice is tyre

nichols being here for his 4-year-old child and seeing him grow up but to see this video and say video is changing things, rodney king was on video. eric garner was on video. i've talked to those families. they don't believe seeing this is enough. you have to have change and so this doesn't happen again. >> this video situation, it does feel like without the video, there wouldn't have been any justice. >> sure. >> we are getting it too late but she brings up a point. it was interesting to hear the congressman agree that, yeah. interstate, the wandering cop issue, i guess we gotta -- you know, i understand he has an ideological point of view about not doing that, but he also admitted the flaw, i think. >> sure. you can pick apart any single factor, the wandering cop issue, you know, body cameras, banning choke holds, all of this stuff. these are all little pieces of what is clearly a larger problem. i think when we treat these incidents like isolated incidents, we fail to see the

forest through the trees, which is to say, there's a larger problem here. we've all been having this conversation. certainly many people for generations. but really as a nation for the last three years since the killing of george floyd. what changed since then? 2022 we actually had the highest number of police killings on record. nearly 1,200. that was two years after the killing of george -- >> and incomplete records. >> correct. you can look at the combination, unique combination of factors on the ground in memphis where they did have a number of reforms after the killing of george floyd as well. but you needed multiple body camera angles and security camera. you needed a chief who was willing to act. you needed labor union laws on the ground that allowed for a quick investigation in a way a lot of other cities wouldn't. all of this had to come together for there to be swift justice. that is not the case in most places in this country. >> steve, how would we break through the ideological belief from some that congressman jordan expressed, which is, no, when the federal government gets involved you won't like it? >> i think he made a valid point

at the beginning of his answer to you which is to say, sometimes it is not possible to pass laws to solve problems like this. i mean, i take your point. one time seeing something like this is far too many. i don't think this has become ordinary. i think one of the things you can take some comfort from as horrific as this has been is there has been this universal condemnation of what happened. i mean, the fraternal order of police put out a statement condemning this. you've had conservative republicans jim jordan putting out a statement. nobody believes this is acceptable. i do think that to the senator's point the fact that it was captured on video allowed the police chief to take these steps as quickly as she has. yamiche is right. we've seen this stuff on video before and it hasn't led to quick solutions, but the fact that this led to the kind of immediate, swift action is a step in the right direction. >> i just want to add, though, i think when we talk about the fact that we see this and there is talk about this and statements released black families are waking up traumatized and worried about

sending their children out in the street. black men are driving cars and hoping they don't get pulled over. people pregnant with black boys are worried right now they could ever see their child, that they made for nine months be killed in a minute in a matter of minutes because of this. i don't know that people see that, the people that are most impacted by this, which frankly are black people are looking and saying this is enough. i think for me when i cover this stuff and i cover all of this black -- this death, i think we have to have this conversation about the fact that also the officers are black, and that's not surprising. i think maybe it is not ordinary. not every single officer is doing this. but i think it is ordinary enough that african americans are scared and this happens far too often and we don't know how often. i think that is the sort of issue i take with this and the conversation. >> i am going to pause the conversation here and we'll come back with a little more raw politics after the break. but first, it's not the best of news that i'm going to show

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actually been 11 more mass shootings across the country. the data doesn't show any signs of a coming slowdown or likely action. by the way the definition of mass shooting that we're using is when four or more people are killed or wounded in one incident. so 29 days of the year, 44 mass shootings, and it's already accounted for 79 people killed. again, we're just on our 29th day of this year. if you look, this is a trend that's been sadly growing. the last four years we've averaged more mass shootings than days of the year. it is obviously a graphic that keeps ticking up. if you're wondering, washington must be ready to do something about it. right? guess what? the voters don't necessarily say it's a priority. this is before the midterms. most important issue, deciding your vote, look where guns is. just 3%. literally almost last on the list that we included here. so that is one reason why you don't see anything. support for stricter gun control is a majority, but it's not a

super majority. you know it takes a super majority to get anything done in washington. we've had various upticks right after sandy hook as high as 58%. currently the end of calendar year 2022, 57% according to gallup supported stricter gun laws. we do see spikes in this after parkland the number as high as 67%. after uvalde the number got up to 66%. but normally, if something doesn't happen right after one of those incidents, washington doesn't pay any more attention. this endless cycle of carnage and inaction has been repeated for decades, but the conversation has changed barely a blip. back in 1968 democratic senator joseph tidings appeared on this program and called for congress to take up gun reform. he did so just a few days after his close friend bobby kennedy was shot and killed. >> additional gun control measures reaching to long guns are to be introduced in the

congress this week, but how could any of these proposed gun limits have helped to avoid the shooting of senator kennedy? >> well, the specific legislation which would be a mail order ban on long guns which the president has proposed which we tried to amend to title 4 in the senate, wouldn't go far enough in my judgment. i think we need a responsible, sane gun policy in this country which would require the registration of all guns just as automobile, which would require license to purchase a gun, preferably issued by your local law enforcement officer. it's just tragic that in all of the western zivl civilization, the united states is the one country with an insane gun policy. >> when we come back, donald trump hits the campaign trail for the first time in his 2024 campaign.

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welcome back the panel is here. we did hav welcome back. the panel is here. we have a new nbc news poll. we asked about the classified documents. what is interesting here is there was almost no distinction between americans' concerns about biden and the classified

document situation and trump. and what is oddly heartening here, i told this to steve, i guess this is what qualifies as good news in our poll, partisans didn't act like partisans. democrats were concerned about, a majority were concerned about biden and a majority of republicans were concerned about what trump did. but this does seem to muddy -- the voters see wrongdoing everywhere. what say you? >> first of all, i can't tell you how many times i have given up my watch, given up my phone, gone in the skiff, looked at classified documents and read things in the paper three days ago. there is an overclassification problem, and i'm surprised secretary gates didn't mention it. there is also a problem of declassifying. for example, say, for example, one of the classified documents that might have been at pence's house was his schedule on an overseas trip. that's classified because you don't want everybody to know where you're going before you go but after the trip is over, that

should not be classified anymore. >> right. >> so until the american people know what was in these documents they have no way of telling whether this is serious or not serious, although, i did think your point was important. one, all of the people who found these documents that were sloppy and handled them carelessly, they all said, please take them. we found them, we want you to have them, except one. and he did everything he could to lie and obfuscate the fact that he took them intentionally and kept them intentionally. >> steve, all of this classified documents -- does it -- politics is not supposed to enter into the justice department's thinking, but it does seem to be harder to make a case against trump. >> yeah, just in terms of public perception. i think they have to be realistic about this. the distinction that you made in your interview with jim jordan was appropriate. we know what donald trump did. he defied the subpoenas. he defied requests to return the documents. but in terms of public perception, it will matter, and

republicans will say, i think, somewhat justifiably, if you go back and look at hillary clinton and some of the previous episodes, republicans are prosecuted and democrats aren't. that makes a huge perception problem for the justice department. >> it is interesting because i remember the "meet the press" this week that said the pence documents were good for biden and great for trump. i thought it was brilliant because what you see is a muddying of the waters. it is hard for americans to see classified documents floating out there and think maybe the issue is not just the individuals but how we handle classified documents. there is the issue of lower overclassification, but the big question when i talk to people is how are we actually handling classified documents and who is in charge of tracking them? >> the bigger issue i felt like in our poll if you were the biden white house is just you don't ever want to be sort of on the same level as trump. you don't ever want that. that feeling. and this poll for whatever it is, on a lot of things we tested some qualities, i mean, he is seeing the public has lost

confidence in the president's ability to handle a crisis, to be competent, whether he's got the physical and mental health, all of this stuff has deteriorated. some of this may be, this is the world we live in. but this is not a good place to start. i think it is also important to point out you are asking in the poll about one person at this moment in time relatively in a volume. we're not comparing to other people, right? americans are in a pretty pessimistic point of view. and i think it's fair. coming off the last three years of what this country has been through, where the economy is right now, gas prices are down, egg prices are up. you know, there's probably another interest rate hike coming. i think americans are feeling very pessimistic about the direction this country is going. but when you look on balance the president's numbers have remained largely steady over the last years. >> over the last year they haven't really budged. >> his numbers on, i believe, things like foreign policy, handling of overseas issues actually ticked up a little bit when it comes to one of the biggest crises we are facing as a planet right now, but when you look at who people want in charge president biden and democrats in congress still have

a little bit of an edge. >> who has the edge today in kansas city? >> i think that is pretty obvious. >> yeah? >> i think, well of course we are the underdog, chuck. remember. they're coming to borough head to play. >> she said it. she was here last year for the same matchup and was that confident. before we go sign up for our free daily newsletter first read and get the best analysis and polling every morning. scan the qr code now. that is all we have for today. thanks for watching. we're back next week. we'll see what the super bowl is because if it is sunday, it's "meet the press." they just brought disgrace to themselves. you know, i'm not an evil person. my son is not an evil person. i'm going to forgive these