do not know now. check back later. >> we got you on tape. that does it for us. we had lots of fun many, thanks to susan del percio, daniel mooney and ali belski. remember, politicsnation is live each saturday and sunday on 5 pm eastern, right here on msnbc. have a wonderful 2023. a wonderful 2023. you've been watching the 2022 ravi awards. brought to you by reverend al sharpton and politicsnation. thanks for watching! we will see you next year. have a happy holiday season. py holiday season. hi there everybody, happy holidays. we are so glad you are here with us. as we take a moment, to

hopefully rest and reflect a bit, we are here at deadline white house. our thinking about the families 4700 miles away in ukraine. with this holiday season it must feel like for them. christmas eve mark ten months since the start of a russian war that has not let up. even now, as we head into the thick of winter. when russia unleashed that first air strike on february 24th, it was the largest attack on the european state since world war ii. it is a gut punch that capture the world's attention more than any other, came less than two weeks later. putin's forces laid siege to the port city of mariupol, unleashing -- ripped through a children hospital and maternity ward, sending pregnant women fleeing for their lives. we are only beginning to grasp the scope of the atrocities there. according to the bbc, satellite images show that since june, more than 1500 new graves have appeared at a mass burial site inside mariupol. devastating. and yet.

and yet the twice impeached, disgraced ex president continues to flippantly claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that if he were the president, ukraine would be just fine. on the day russia invaded ukraine, trump released this gem. quote, if i were in office, this deadly situation in ukraine would never have happened. to think, if only trump were still our president, there will be peace in ukraine. it is laughable on the face of it, but thanks to an exhaustive and riveting piece of reporting in the new york times, we have reason to believe that trump was once again, saying the quiet part out loud. jim ruttenberg of the time was reviewed hundreds of pages of documents, interviewed nearly 50 people in the u.s. and ukraine, and spent four hours building -- paul manafort -- investigation that unearthed a missing puzzle piece linking the 2016 russian election interference to russia's invasion of ukraine today. back in 2016, konstantin

kilimnik, shadowy figure who the u.s. intelligence believes is the russians, approached trump's then campaign manage jury paul manafort with a you scratch my back i will scratch yours proposal. quote, a secret plan whose significance would only become clear six years later, as vladimir v. putin's inviting russian army pushed into ukraine. no loosely has the mariupol plan after the strategically vital port city, it called for the creation of an autonomous republican ukraine's east, giving putin effective control of the country's industrial heartland. the scheme cut against decades of american policy promoting a free and united ukraine. but trump was already suggested-ing that if he would abandon the diplomatic status quo if elected, kilimnik believed trump could help make the mariupol plan a reality. with the plan offered on paper is essentially what putin is now trying to seize through sham referendums and illegal annexation. and mariupol is shorthand for

the horrors of this war. and occupied city in ruins after months of siege. countless citizens buried in mass graves. our friend andrew weissmann, friend of the show, who led the special counsel's prosecution of paul manafort would later call it an aha moment, when he realized the so-called mariupol plan, that the russians by dangled to trump's campaign manager, was quote, the quo qudus wanted for the quid of helping trump campaign. russia had clearly revealed to manafort, and by extension to the trump campaign, what it wanted out of the u.s., a wink and nod of comparable from president donald trump, as it took over ukraine's richest region. just, that let that reporting sink in. control of the city of mariupol was the quote that vladimir putin wanted for the quid of helping trump's campaign in 2016. that is where we begin the hour. joining us jim, rultenberg writer, at large for the new

york times in the sunday magazine. the man behind this exceptional piece of reporting. with us to take it through it all. with me on set, new york times -- mark netti, who was part of the team that ran the new york times pulitzer prize-winning russia coverage in 2017 and 2018. jim, the piece is an opus. i read it three times now. take me through how it starts. because, it is the scene that just, it is like out of a spy thriller. >> thanks for having me. and yeah, you know, when you go back and you look at the records that were unearthed in the special counsel investigation, the senate investigation, those investigations that we spent so much time hearing about through the lens of our domestic politics and you now know that there has been a -- in ukraine, it all takes on this different hue. there is this incredible scene that we sort of knew about at the time but didn't gather the significance of, where, basically that night, that hillary clinton is accepting

the democratic nomination, paul manafort, president trump's then candidate, his campaign manager, is receiving this message from this constant and kilimnik, saying i need to talk to you. he is literally writing this in moscow. and i have to come and talk to in person, and they arrange this meeting at, this famous cigar bar in 666 fifth avenue, owned by happens, jared kushner 's family. and they meet their, a few nights later, to discuss this plan, the so-called mario plan that talks about basically granting what manafort himself would confirm to mr. weisman, granted putin backdoor control over the most important industrial region of ukraine. >> and jim, what is established through the special counsel investigation is a united mission. and i think a lot of us in this country got wrapped around connecting the docks and

proving a criminal conspiracy and into allowed donald trump and bill barr to say no collusion, of course there was a shared mission. call it whatever you want. but the aha moment that you reported from andrew weissmann, that the quid pro was help in 2016 for help in seizing mariupol. is that right? >> yeah. because the interesting thing that mr. weisman later reveals, that the senate intelligence committee report, kind of went through the report that existed, not speculation and not a criminal case but the emails that were unearthed, the primary documents, and what weisman found was that all along, mr. manafort and others, were avoiding talking about the meeting at the cigar bar i just mentioned. or this idea of mario plan. this was sort of concealed from them, they felt. so, when weisman starts getting some new emails and some new information and he sees things

that have been left out of what he has learned so far, from instance from mr. manafort who was speaking at one point with prosecutors as they talked about a possible cooperation deal, he says, okay what are they hiding here? >> here's what they are hiding. once you realize that what they are talking about is the east of ukraine, once they are talking about how important the eastern ukraine is to putin and wants to establish separately that there was a russian meddling operation to effect social media and disrupt american politics, it all sort of came together for mr. weisman. >> do you think that the pardoning that trump ultimately issues to manafort, manafort and trump have still not fallen out, as recently as after the war began, trump is still talking about putin being a genius. he describes the plan to annex territory as brilliant. he says he would display the same tactics a wrong the border of this country. do you believe that when trump says there wouldn't have been a war, it would have been because

he would have considered trying to negotiate the mariupol plan? >> well, i don't know what was in his head. i do know there was an argument that one could make that, had this plan gone forward, by the way before it got a chance to the russian investigation really kicked in, manafort was immediately in legal trouble. it really got stopped in its tracks. however, had that plan gone forward, arguably, putin would have gotten what he wanted and perhaps there wouldn't have been a war but the flip side of that is that perhaps, there would be no ukraine as we understand it. what any ukrainian will tell you right now is, that wouldn't have happened anyway because what we have seen is the ukrainian people would never accept that plan. but putin's planning was never based on what ukrainian people really would do or would do anyways as we now know. so, but, yes on paper, this would have given putin what he wanted but also it would have rendered ukraine a broken

democracy. >> you know mark, the times russia trump coverage would win a pulitzer for eyes but there are an unanswered questions. the body of reporting was riveting, but in the end, the circuit that jim closes wasn't clear at the time. what do you make of this new information -- the stories that the times, they were like stopped the presses they, would hand them to me and we were talk about them for an hour. they were so jaw-dropping. that things trump said about russia publicly, the ties that manafort had, the revelations that color nick was associated with russian intelligence, the pieces didn't all fall in place as quickly as the revelations sort of cause all of us to stop everything we were doing and focus on the new questions they raised. >> i think the reason, one of the reasons jim's reporting is so amazing is that it is so effectively tying together these major events that may, as

the story unfold in realtime, didn't seem as connected as they do now. if you take the of the campaign election interference in 2016, russia stepped out of the election, the second major event being the first impeachment of donald trump, which was all about ukraine, recall that the person who has just been named time magazine time man of the year, zelenskyy, was at the time, the other end of the call that donald trump placed that was basically a shakedown call. the lynskey was this very green political novice. not the churchillian figure he is now. -- the third of course was the -- south. that is why, ukraine is kind of the baseline running through this, but it does show that it is the prize, or at least a prize, that putin wanted. i think that is what is so important. it does show that all of this

is -- >> let's take those three together. i mean, we went back and found, going back seven years, trump's disparaging ukraine. it seemed random, his ignorance was almost a cover or a wave of from what in hindsight looks very strategic. russia hated ukraine and wanted to seize parts of it. trump denigrated ukraine and try to withhold congressionally approved military aid. what was sort of the flashing yellow pieces of unanswered story for you, as you looked at the times rush and coverage during the trump efforts didn't see? >> i think that the volume of evidence that came out in the mar-a-lago investigation in the senate intelligence investigation paints the picture of you know, not that donald trump was groomed over the years by putin or an asset -- if jeb bush had run against hillary clinton in 2016, trump

was not the nominee, you would have probably seen russian interference that was kind of 50/50. looking at both sides. bush was a traditional republican, -- on russia, hillary was the same way, and so you would have sort of, he would have -- sabotage both sides. i think though, that as trump starts winning primaries, it becomes clear he is the nominee. and he also starts surrounding himself by people who have been in putin's orbit in different ways. mike flynn, most importantly in paul manafort, and others. >> up annapolis. >> up. annapolis >> -- many have forgotten. then, to add on top of that, some of the things he starts saying publicly, for instance, as jim points out in this piece, he says, first of all he starts disparaging no, which is a two putin talking point. he indicates that perhaps it is fine if putin keeps crimea. these are all things that, if you are putin in the kremlin, in a way it is manna from

heaven here. you are like, this is the guy who is running against hillary clinton, why wouldn't you put all of your chips on that side? that is what happens. that is the sabotage that happens almost exclusively for trump and against clinton. so, i think that was a unanswered question that i think again, is more cliffs lives now given what we see putin's -- >> do you feel like though at why has been answered? the putin y is abundantly clear. putin's interest -- cheered on by trump. do you understand the trump why? >> -- >> why putin? >> i think that is still, if jim has written the second draft of -- more overtime, whether it is a, some instinct to zag where others zig in the foreign policy establishment, sort of admiration for authoritarianism,

he certainly had been to russia before, he had sought properties there, i think it is a combination. but i think your question still is outstanding. >> jim. do you feel like the question, again, the reporting really goes the farthest in answering why trump for putin, but do you feel like you understand why putin for trump? >> why putin for trump? yes. in that trump was signaling to putin intentionally or not that he was going to be the best thing that putin could ever hope for in an american president, which was to end the traditional american role in the world. if there is one thing that putin wants it is to rebuild the empire, starting with ukraine. we know that if. there is one country above all others that are standing in the way of that, it is the united states of america. putin's own administration was very open that they viewed the classic u.s. regime, certainly the obama administration,

certainly the bush administration, certainly hillary clinton, as being the most important sponsors for ukraine. so, having that sponsorship out of the way, which donald trump was indicating as president he would at least consider that, that is earth shattering in putin's world. so that is a major, major potential when. interestingly, on the trump side, and what trump would say if he were sitting here right now, he would probably say a lot of things, but one thing he would say is that at the end of the day, he did one thing that the obama administration would not. through all of this, he will eventually grant to the ukrainians, defensive weapons against the russians while all of this other stuff is going on. but there is a point in trump's presidency where now he is defending himself against, he is warm and cozy with putin and wants to be or is putin's poodle, et cetera. so oddly, ironically, the

politics of the u.s. eventually will push trump to act more and more in hawkish fashion but also in this begrudging way where is he is at the same time making clear he blames ukraine for, he thinks that they were involved in hacking themselves, there is a conspiracy theory that ukraine hacked the u.s. and set up russia and not russia. trump had flirted with that idea publicly. so it was just this crazy, crowded picture. but no matter what, putin still would have always rather had trump than any democrat or republican that is traditional. >> i think that -- as we head into 2024, i don't think anybody's opinion has changed on each other. since trump -- listen to what he had to say at the time. stick around, when we come back, why -- deserves a second look at in -- light of this new recording. the direct link between trump's

perfect phone call with zelenskyy on what is happening on the ground in ukraine today. all of those stories and more with deadline white house that continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere.

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hope you are able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mildly by our press. let's see if that happens. >> anyone who was covering the

trump campaign will always remember where they were the moment that happened. and as we all know, russia was listening. shocker. russia, are you listening though? even though that is the only thing that those of the people who covered the campaign remembered and talked about in that fateful props conference it, overshadowed every thing else. maybe in hindsight, the most important parts of candidate trump's press conference that day. the same press conference donald trump said that if you he were elected president, he would consider recognizing crimea as a russian territory in lifting the stench sins against russia. that was july 27th, 2016. the next day, july 28th, his campaign manager paul manafort gets an urgent message from a man u.s. intelligence agencies, someone we have been -- konstantin kilimnik, asking for a secret meeting. and at that secret, meaning that russian meeting proposes -- that is right about. to hand the city of mariupol to

putin allies. now why mary opal? well. you can see. why on the map, because where mariupol is and how it forms a potential land bridge for arms between occupied crimea and war-torn donbas. between coded messages about crimea and secret meetings with russian spies where they asked nicely for trump to please give them the city of mariupol it is clear that putin's bloodlust for ukraine and trump's for the right house where interconnected enter intertwined for the very beginning. we are back with jim and mark. mark we, are talking about this press conference on the break and how we all followed, we are listening to the emails because they have been intersected with jim colleagues in the station of hillary. but really, the commitment to give back crimea turns out to be the enduring geo political comment. >> right. if you line up the timeline as you just did, you have the trump statement about crimea, you have the urgent message and sequin eating in a cigar bar a date later, two days later. and again, these are the sort

of signals that go out, that trump sends, that putin and the kremlin are reading. they are reading it as very clearly signs that we can do business with this person. and again, the idea that there was sort of the pristine conspiracy or collusion or whatever people wanted to call it, it was in reality far, messier, more de sapin, it different contacts and different times whether it was the kilimnik manifests -- the trump tower meeting with donald trump jr. or papadopoulos and the sky -- this is how it actually happened. and so back to that statement, again, putin's -- sending his people out. >> to think he is reading them? trump didn't know that puerto rico is part of america. who told him to say to give back crimea? >> again, he had a group of advisers who, i don't know who the big person actually, the

exact person's, but he was surrounding himself with people who -- >> mike flan. >> people who this was their view. flynn had a sort of cozy relationship with the russians from a business point of view. more of an ideological point of view, certainly. and he signs on as a foreign policy advisor. again, these are people who are more on the fringes of the foreign policy establishment, but these are some of the people i believe who are whispering in his ear, to kind of lead trump to make the statements that he's probably inclined to do anyway. but they are forming some of these beliefs. >> so gem, he says that the 27th of july, yeah i, would consider giving back crimea. on the 28 they throw in this costco sized volume deal. give us mariupol. talk about these pieces getting connected together now. >> well, what interested me when i was looking at all of

this was. the urgency with which konstantin kilimnik, after this statement was made, rights to manafort. he is in russia. to come here is not an easy thing. he wants to meet quickly. so, the meeting is put right up on the books. -- paul manafort is running a presidential campaign, a general action that has really just gotten underway. so it is pretty extraordinary that they would take this time to meet. now, manafort says, which andrew weissmann declared perjury, but manafort says i just missed this right away. manafort told me he dismissed this right away. there was one key element, because the person who this mario plan envisioned bringing to power for this kind of autonomous eastern region they were talking about creating was victory on a covid. this doctor yanukovych owed his political -- to paul manafort.

manafort had four started working in ukraine, this is very important, in the mid 2000s. he was brought in by who? a very prominent russian oligarch, oleg deripaska, who is on record saying, i pursued my own interests but it is good for me when they align with the kremlin's own interests. he helped introduced manafort to the ukrainian political world. that part of the political world is very pro-russian. so, what kilimnik was talking about doing is reinstalling a former manafort client. to this day he said he thought that was preposterous. prosecutors did not believe him. and, but there are these incredibly intriguing pieces. and sure enough, at the same time, what else was going on, according to prosecutors and much of it based on extensive research they did, there was a discussion at the cigar bar as well about poland. what was the trump campaign's view of the race? and in fact, at that point, the

trump campaign, manafort was saying things that perhaps other students. that the path for trump to win was going to be through these working class, blue collar voters in states that were traditionally, or at least recently, in a ball i'm's column. in pennsylvania, he saw it happening in wisconsin, michigan. so these two conversations are happening at the same session. >> jim, let me ask you about the manafort prosecution. and there is a point, if i don't remember this accurately, correct me, but it manafort cooperates and then an cooperate. is there anything that you learn that sort of sinks up the timeline about where the cooperation ends and. the un-flipping on trump begins? did they not probe, it is clear that they didn't get to the clinic product, right, they didn't have the exchange of the polling data for the mariupol plan as part of the manafort prosecution, right? >> well, the first trial that

manafort goes through, a lot of this wasn't known. weisman's book. one thing i'm going to know from earlier conversation, even people like weisman are putting this together much later, as in, his case as he was writing his book. but as he writes in his book, it is between manafort's first trial, don't forget there is all these tax charges against manafort was first worked in ukraine, as a product of the investigation. and there is going to be a second trial between these two trials. manafort. strikes a deal, that he is going to cooperate. manafort tells me that his primary goal here, he is worried about the math you the, next trials going to be in washington d.c.. he doesn't think he's can win. he's probably trying to protect some family assets for his family. he is trying to steal. weisman is really the person, the prosecutors blow up the deal, when they learn on another things, that manafort was not being honest with them about the mariupol plan. that is one of the reasons that they scrap this deal. manafort, by the way, has

always been open that he was hoping for a trump pardon. again, in his view he would say, doesn't hid his book and interviews of me that it this is all trumped up. reisman is wrong. he deserves a pardon. but regardless, that is, this sort of the, picture that comes together later, -- the thing that helped blew up his deal is not sharing the details of his interactions with kilimnik, and their discussions about the plan. >> so, this isn't, just an interesting adjacent parallel. and i'm not suggesting a conspiracy. but flynn flips, and then an flips. and ultimately, we never really learn why he lies about his conversations with russians. he was incoming national security adviser, he could decide whatever the holly one and two about posture. we still don't know. he flips, he apparently flips faster than anyone and u.s. doj history --

flips for the reason jim details, before we learn about the details of the interactions of columnist and what was promised and what was traded, if you, well he unclip's. what are we still not know about this guy and putin's interactions with them and promises and request of the trump administration? >> a lot of those central questions we're asking, we still don't have a completely clear picture on. going back for a second to the polling data, right? -- this sort of, in some people's view, this was this kind of smoking gun. right? that clearly showed that you have campaign manager giving inside information to suspected russian asset, who's bringing it back to putin, right? and for others, including metaphor gates, you know, his former deputy, it was nothing. it was just top line polling that anyone who watches msnbc would know. right? about the pack.

but actually, it's maybe somewhere in the middle. again, maybe unsatisfying, but it's clearly important. as jim pointed out, you have the campaign manager telling columnist, you know -- >> who has hustled as we are and into the country. >> yeah. like really fast. and he's basically -- this is how we see things, and in july, august of 2016, my guess is that there was not so much focus in the media about the importance of pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. right? the ones that ended up flipping for trump. and so, to hear that from the inside would be quite valuable for a russian government that is dead set on sabotaging -- >> crimea. >> crimea, right? all of that is important, and lo and behold, where do we see some of the focal points of the russian sabotage? i'm not trying to build a conspiracy. >> no. >> but i'm just saying, if you

mind these things up, it does show the significance of this piece of the puzzle that jim has highlighted. >> i think that the sort of enduring story is that there is money unanswered questions about trump and his affinity for putin, and putin, and what he wanted and what he got from trumpists -- there still hasn't finances from -- the time's extraordinary coverage. jim, thanks for writing the piece, thanks for taking the time to talk to us about it. mark, thanks for being here in walking us through it. really grateful to both of you. thank you. when we come back, it was, as we've been discussing, at the heart of trump's first impeachment. that so-called perfect phone call between donald trump and ukrainian players didn't zelenskyy. next, we talk to people who are on the call. we'll be right back with that. back with that. for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops with two times more menthol per drop*, and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fast-acting relief you can feel. vicks vapocool drops. fast relief you can feel.

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listen, i'm done settling. because this is my secret. i put it on once, no more touch ups! secret had ph balancing minerals; and it helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. so pull it in close. secret works. ukraine is in a war with russia.

the assistance that we provide ukraine is significant. absent that security assistance and maybe even more importantly the signal of support for ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, that would likely encourage russia to pursue, or potentially escalate aggression, further undermining ukrainian sovereignty, european security, and u.s. security. >> so, another odds, ukraine is heavily dependent on the united

states support both diplomatically, financially, and also militarily. >> correct. >> ukraine is in a war with russia. that was from trump's first impeachment and 2019. of course, that was lieutenant colonel alexander vindman explaining to the whole country four years ago, what is painfully apparent to all of us now ten months into russia's war in ukraine. he joins us now, retired u.s. army you tenant alexander vindman, former director for european affairs for the national security council. also joining us, igor now because, of our good friend, former adviser to ukraine's president zelenskyy, and former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. he's now an msnbc international affairs analyst. i want to come through with his new lens of, what jim guttenberg has reported at, and what we understand to be, under weisman's aha moment, kind of vindman about the print -- quid pro quo circle being complete. mariupol for election

interference in 2016. >> yeah. to me, it's clear that there's a continuity not just in president trump's efforts to steal an election to be able to retain power, but certainly there's a long term continuity and russia's efforts to realize the ukraine projects by any means possible, including through the candidate and the president of the united states, donald trump. that's the part that's really interesting to me and a back story, you know, the last bit of the story ends with the moments of quid pro quo and the trump phone call. but all that deep back story on russia's long term project to secure crimea, to secure a land bridge, this mariupol plan, from russia proper to crimea, that was a long term enterprise and they saw a partnership, and a lot of ways, with the trump administration to get there.

servicing the presidents desires to keep power at any cost. >> igor. you are not just on the call. you briefed president zelenskyy for the call. is that correct? and colonel vindman, you arranged the call, right? between president trump and president zelenskyy. igor, what's your advice to him about trump's desire fetish for putin and irrational distrust of ukraine? >> well, first of all, i do have to stress that we weren't publicly saying it, but by that call, we realized what was going on. the interactions between -- that was enough for us to understand that we were in for a hell of a ride. but, to be honest, let me begin with crimea. because this missing pieces of the puzzle that might not be publicly available just yet. first, all president trump, his view of crimea, i was there in the room when he met zelenskyy in new york. one of the things president

trump said to us when we asked about crimea was, wasn't crimea historically russian owned? no it wasn't, it's a peninsula -- that was his view on it. he was very dismissive of questions of, like, really trying to enforce -- obviously, it was difficult for us to deal with that. if you examine, for example, the transcript of the so-called perfect phone call, i mean, president zelenskyy mentions the javelins. president trump completely ignores it. he disregards it. you got oh, yeah, okay, but let's focus on hunter biden, everything else. it was incredibly difficult. but we knew what was going on. which is that strategy of kind of playing them and stalling, pretty much. basically, we realized, you know, if we couldn't do anything else, at least we want president trump, giuliani, and actually a bunch of designated

russian agents and the future -- in the future to be designated russian agents surrounding giuliani to do the talking, and lay out, you, know the path so we could in the future kind of rebuild -- what was going on. >> igor, what did you believe to be the reason for trump's indifference to an american ally in a democracy, and his affinity for an american adversary and an autocracy? >> well, i mean, that's my subjective opinion president trump is a very narcissistic person. so, the only thing that concerns him as president trump and his political future. and unfortunately, ukraine was a foreign in the side, innocence. basically, we were dependent on u.s. military assistance and humanitarian assistance and diplomacy, as has been said before. so basically, or causing lots of problems, and the only

upside he saw with us was this stupid rubberstamp-ing of conspiracy theories, for him to win the second term. that was the only benefit to ukraine. otherwise, i think you would've completely disregarded us. >> and given it to putin. >> it's true. >> i want to get you -- after the sneak in a quick break. no one's going anywhere. we'll have -- follow-up on that. also when we come back, the anatomy of president trump's magical -- somehow wave a wand and make the conflict and the suffering in the death of the war in ukraine disappear. that's next. >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: that's service that fits your schedule. go to safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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aside, isn't it a shame all those people out at all because of a rigged election? because if our election wasn't rigged, he would've had nobody dead. >> you said to peyton, don't invade ukraine. what was his response? >> i tell them what our response was going to be, and his response was, really? >> i said, really. >> what do you say what the response was? >> and if you believe me, good, but if he believed me only 5%, he would've said, i'll never do it. >> not remotely possible. another installment of trump's delusion slash magical thinking about rigged elections and the tragedy of the war in ukraine. back with us, colonel alexander vindman, former director for european affairs for the national security council, igor novack of, and former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael

mcfaul. -- your reaction, mr. mcfaul? >> where to begin, nicole. just a lot of things. well, you know, i think it's important for everybody to understand that yes, mr. trump has a giant ego, and people say nice things about him, he likes them. putin, somebody i used to negotiate with and deal with and have interacted with and written about for 30 years, he's really smart about these things. he does his homework before meetings to make those kind of overtures. and he played mr. trump very effectively. but second, below that, there's also an ideological affinity between these two leaders. they're a liberal nationalist populists. they don't believe in the rule of law. they don't believe in constitutions. they worry about the decadent liberal western movements, and putin, for a decade, has been cultivating relationships with

like-minded ideologues in hungary, and italy, in france, and in the united states of america. so that's a second piece that i think people need to understand. and third, the respect to what might have happened, you know, things would've been very different had president trump been reelected, because putin would've had a collaborator, a willing collaborator, to say, oh, you want crimea? yeah, of course. he would've given no underway. so the relationship -- maybe that wouldn't have been war. the president might have been right about that. because the united states of america might have given putin everything he wanted, vis-à-vis ukraine. >> igor, you're shaking your head. >> well, first of all, let me stress one point. president trump was president for four years, and there was war in ukraine during those four years. for the, mark president trump tried to take away the military systems during an active --

so, you know, his claim that there wouldn't be war is ridiculous. they might not have been, you, know a major invasion, but still, the russian filtration tactics, murders, tortures of free minded ukrainians, what stuff happened. just undercover. >> just to be clear -- >> go ahead. >> igor is exactly right. there was more starting in 2014. it's been ongoing. just the nature and kind of war could've been different, because i fear that had president trump been reelected, we would not have been supporting the ukrainians in the way we are right now. in fact, i don't fear it. i think we know, from what the two other gentlemen on this conversation now, firsthand, president trump did not care about providing military assistance. that was simply an instrument for him for his own domestic

political purposes. >> and alex, everyone who ended up serving as a national security adviser for trump has come way -- come out in some way revealing that they laid the body on the railroad tracks for him. not only was trump out in the open about event band inning ukraine, he would've abandoned nato to. >> based on that, i'm quite confident that would eventually have been a large scale war of the same kind, except it would be much more bloody a war. much greater i'm humanitarian catastrophe for ukraine. because it may not have occurred in the first year as it did under the biden administration. certainly, putin would've showed some additional patients and waited until trump -- withdrew from nato, and made sure that this perception about a fractured alliance structure within nato and the u.s. that he believed would be their, that he thought he could exploit in the early parts of the war, he wouldn't have to contend with that of all. that would've been a reality.

but one thing that would've changed is that the -- ukrainian people whatever zested. they would've fought for their liberties. so there would be a large where, except it would be a more lopsided war. not necessarily one that russia would win, it just would be a bloody war. because it would be a war that wouldn't entail the provision of javelins and stingers air defense systems. and all this kind of unity around providing support to ukraine. so the ukrainians would still be, there still be fighting. but the russians may be making more headway, eventually losing anyway, because the well of the ukrainian people to defend themselves. but it's amazing that this is not a surprise to quite a few people. i mean, certainly, the soundbite you played, i alluded to the fact that there would be a danger for significant escalation based on this machination to withhold aid. we came much much worse because ukraine became politicized and radioactive to both the trump and biden administration.

that was not a lot of opportunity to engage with ukraine below the attention of all of trump. imagine a world he doesn't care about, and you could have about policy around ukraine. there is no opportunity to do that. so for a lot of different reasons, we find ourselves in this situation where this was a foreseeable crisis, and it wasn't just trump. it is frankly large swaths of the republican party that would've normally been democracy defenders, siding with authoritarian regime and this way that the trump -- kind of enterprise has been drawing the republican party away from democracy towards something much more undemocratic. >> it is really one of the most significant changes in u.s. politics, and my lifetime. you three of the most beloved guests to our viewers. for having this conversation with us and with me today, thank you so much. alexander vindman, igor novack, of -- a quick break from us, we'll be

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please do take a moment to think about the people of ukraine, and thank you for letting us into your homes. we're so grateful. from all of us here at msnbc, we wish you a peaceful holiday and a happy new year. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> welcome to the beat. i'm wishing you a happy and wonderful holiday season as we approach a new year. we have a big shout tonight for you, including a