03/25/24 03/25/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> there were five or six of them. they were just walking and shooting like this. they did not shoot upwards. they did not say "everyone lay down or we will kill you" they were just walking and gunning down everyone methodically in silence. amy: isis-k claimed

responsibility for friday's attack on a russian concert hall that killed at least 137. we will look at how putin this responded with new school professor nina khrushcheva and the new yorker's moscow correspondent joshua yaffa. then to gaza. >> after children under five and gaza are malnourished compared with less than 1% before the conflict began, virtually all households are already skipping meals every day and adults are reducing their meals so children can eat. amy: we'll speak with the world peace foundation's alex de waal who says, "we are about to witness in gaza the most intense famine since the second world war." we will also speak with him about the catastrophic hunger crisis looming in sudan. >> the sheer scale of

humanitarian need, the numbers of people displaced and facing hunger, sudan is one of the worst in recent memory. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in russia, the death toll has risen to 137 from an attack on a popular concert hall in moscow on friday. authorities say gunmen opened fire inside a sold out rock concert and then set the venue ablaze, the crocus city hall. more than 100 people were also injured, many in critical condition. authorities in russia have detained 11 people, including four men from tajikistan, who appeared in court today. they all appeared to have been badly beaten, possibly during interrogations. one suspect, who was in

wheelchair, seemed to lose consciousness during the court session. reuters reports he may have had an eye missing. an affiliate of the islamic state, isis-k, has claimed responsibility and posted video of the attack. russian authorities have suggested ukraine was involved in the attack, a claim strongly denied by kyiv. we will have more on the story after headlines with professor nina khrushcheva and "the new yorker" magazine joshua yaffa s. horrifying accounts continue to come from gaza city where israel's raid on al-shifa hospital has entered a second week. israeli forces have killed at least 170 at the hospital and detained another 400. survivors of the raid have told al jazeera that israeli tanks and armored bulldozers have driven over bodies and ambulances. israeli forces are also attacking two other hospitals in gaza. meanwhile, the head of the u.n.

palestinian aid agency unrwa has denounced israel for denying access to all their food convoys to northern gaza even though the region is on the brink of famine. on saturday, the you and secretary --u.n. secretary-general travel to the border crossing. >> a long line of blocked believe trucks, starvation on the other. it is more than tragic. it is a moral outrage. amy: over the weekend, u.s. vice president kamala harris warned against israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu invading rafah. she spoke to rachel scott of abc news. vice pres. harris: we have been cleared in multiple conversations and in every way that any major military operations in rafah would be a huge mistake. >> a mistake, but would there be

consequences? vice pres. harris: we will take it one step at a time. >> are you ruling out there would be consequences from the united states? vice pres. harris: i am rolling out nothing. and because this comes as israel continues to carry out attacks across gaza where the death toll tops 32,200. this is a palestinian man named younis kassab in rafah. >> israel does not want a cease-fire. instead, it wants to continue exterminating the palestinian people. this is what israel and america are planning simultaneously. they do not want a ceasefire. israel six genocide against the palestinian people, in particular, the gaza strip. and this is a crime. amy: at the united nations security council, china and russia on friday vetoed a gaza cease-fire resolution drafted by the united states. china's ambassador to the u.n.

zhang jha criticized the text because it did not actually demand a cease-fire. >> the final text remains ambiguous and does not call for an immediate cease-fire. it does not provide an answer to the question. this is a clear deviation from the consensus of the council members and fell far short of the expectations of the international community. an immediate cease-fire is a prerequisite for saving lives, expanding humanitarian access, and preventing greater conflicts. amy: the u.s. ambassador to the u.n., linda thomas-greenfield, criticized russia and china for vetoing the resolution. >> let's be honest, for all the fiery rhetoric, we all know russia and china are not doing anything diplomatically to advance a lasting peace or meaningfully contribute to the humanitarian response effort. amy: president biden has signed a $1.2 trillion spending package to keep the federal government open until october. the senate approved the

appropriations bill 74-to-24. independent senator bernie sanders voted no for cuts the bill because it stripped funding to unrwa for the next year. >> tens of thousands of people are starving. unrwa is trying to feed them and the israeli government and super pacs looking to defund unrwa which is feeding starving people. tragically, many members of congress same to be happy to be part of this starvation caucus. amy: in the house, the spending bill was approved 286 to 134. new york congressmember alexandria ocasio-cortez, who voted no, accused israel of committing genocide. >> if you want to know what an unfolding genocide looks like,

open your eyes. it looks like the forest famine of 1.1 million innocents. it looks like thousands of children eating grass as their bodies consume themselves while trucks of food are slowed and halted just miles away. it looks like good and decent people who do nothing or too little, too late. it is against united states law to provide weapons to forces who block united states humanitarian assistance. and that is exactly what is happening right now. amy: israeli defense minister yoav gallant is in washington , d.c., for meetings with defense secretary lloyd austin and others. axios is reporting gallant is coming with a "long list of u.s. weapons israel wants to receive in an expedited manner." protests continued around the world this weekend. in ireland, tens of thousands of marched in dublin to demand a

ceasefire and freedom for palestinians. in chile, members of the palestinian community, which is believed to be the largest palestinian community outside of the arab world, gathered with allies to call on president gabriel boric to break off all diplomatic relations with israel. >> we stand with the oppressed and against the oppressors to say no more crimes against humanity. so we protest. no more relations with the criminal state of israel. amy: here in new york, hundreds of activists gathered outside the metropolitan museum of art to demand the prestigious museum and its board members cut ties with companies that benefit from israel's assault on gaza and commit to helping "preserve palestinian cultural heritage sites being destroyed by israel." activists displayed a massive 30-by-50-foot quilt on the steps of the met. modeled after the aids memorial quilt, the palestine quilt pieced together works by 64 global artists on the theme of

"from oppression to liberation, free palestine." in senegal, early results from sunday's presidential election put the candidate bassirou diomaye faye in the lead. at least five of the 18 other candidates already conceded to faye, who is backed by the popular opposition figure ousmane sonko -- who himself is barred from running. but former prime minister amadou ba, who has the backing of outgoing president macky sall, said he expects the vote could head to a run-off. a final provisional vote tally is expected tuesday. supporters of sonko and faye took to the streets to celebrate, nonetheless. >> i say it is great because it is democracy that is winning. everyone thought he would not happen. today, if these results are confirmed, it is senegal who absolutely wins. amy: sunday's vote had been rescheduled after president sall sought to delay the election, leading to large protests and

accusations of an attempted power grab. sonko and faye were released from prison just days before the election after sall granted the men amnesty. residents of ukraine's second largest city, kharkiv, are facing rolling blackouts as russia continues a wave of strikes against ukraine's energy infrastructure. on sunday, russia hit an underground oil gas storage site. meanwhile, ukrainian forces are continuing to attack russian oil refineries despite a warning not to do so from the united states. "the financial times" reports the biden administration fears the attacks deep inside russia could drive up oil prices and provoke retaliation. ukraine also hit two more russian ships and a communications center used by russia's black sea fleet. in nigeria, at least 130 kidnapped school children from the northwestern state of kaduna were rescued sunday after more than two weeks in captivity.

previous reports had the total number of students closer to 300, but officials said the total was actually 137. on friday, 17 students that were kidnapped were rescued. at least 1400 students have been abducted since 2014, with armed groups demanding ransoms for their safe return. in brazil, police arrested two politicians and rio de janeiro's former police chief in a major breakthrough for the investigation into the 2018 assassination of marielle franco, an outspoken rio councilwoman and activist. investigators say brothers chiquinho brazão and domingos brazão, who also both once served on rio's city council and remain in official positions, are suspected of masterminding the assassination, which also killed franco's driver anderson pedro gomes. former rio police chief rivaldo

barbosa is accused of obstructing investigations into the fatal shooting. marielle franco had fought against police brutality and became a voice for other lgbtq and black brazilians who face discrimination. her long-time partner monica benicio spoke sunday following news of the arrest. >> today is without a doubt an important day for democracy in brazil, it is the beginning of a new struggle. we want everyone to be held responsible and everyone to be identified so we can finally have justice for marielle and anderson. amy: new york attorney general letitia james could begin seizing some of former president donald trump's assets today if he fails to meet a deadline to post a $454 million bond after losing a civil fraud case in new york. last week, trump's attorneys said the former president faces

"insurmountable difficulties" to secure the bond after more than 30 companies refused to help him. trump's attorneys have filed -- have appealed the ruling but a decision is not expected before the deadline. this comes as trump appears poised to make as much as $3 billion as the parent company of his social media platform truth social becomes a publicly traded firm following a merger last week. meanwhile, trump is expected back in court today in new york for a pre-trial hearing in his hush money case. in news from capitol hill, republican congressmember mike gallagher of wisconsin has announced he will resign on april 19. his seat will remain vacant until november. this will cut the house republican majority to a one-vote margin. in other house news, republican marjorie taylor greene filed a motion friday to remove house speaker mike johnson just five

months after he took the office after the ouster of kevin mccarthy. in other political news, new jersey first lady tammy murphy has dropped out of the democratic primary race for robert menendez's senate seat , clearing the way for andy kim and others in the democratic primary. menendez, who is facing multiple corruption charge, has announced he won't run in the democratic primary but hasn't ruled out running again as an independent. if he is exonerated. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. when we come back, isis-k claims responsibility for friday's attack on a russian concert hall that killed at least 137 people. we will look at how putin is responding. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

in russia, the death toll has risen to 137 from an attack on a popular concert hall in moscow on friday. authorities say gunmen opened fire inside the crocus city hall during a sold out rock concert and then set part of the venue on fire. more than 100 people were also injured, many in critical condition. a survivor described the attack. >> they were just walking and shooting as they went along. there were five or six of them. they were just walking and shooting like this. they did not shoot upwards. they did not scream. they were just walking and gunning down everyone methodically in silence. we could not understand. amy: sunday was a day of mourning in russia. authorities have detained 11 people, including four men from tajikistan, who appeared in court today.

they all appeared to have suffered significant injuries reportedly suffered during interrogations. one suspect was in a wheelchair and seemed to lose consciousness during the court session. borders reports he may have had an eye missing. the four are charged with terrorism and face life sentences. an affiliate of the islamic state, isis-k, has claimed responsibility and posted video of the attack online. russian authorities have suggested ukraine was in the attack, a claim kyiv called absurd. the u.s. embassy had reportedly warned russia earlier this month that it was "monitoring reports that extremists have imminent plans to target large gatherings in moscow" especially concert halls and u.s. national security council spokesperson adrienne watson said the u.s. government had "shared this information

with russian authorities in accordance with its longstanding 'duty to warn' policy.'" putin called the warnings "provocative" and "outright blackmail" in a speech last tuesday. today, a kremlin spokesperson refused to respond to reporters who asked if friday was an intelligence failure. >> are special services work independently. any help now is out of the question posted as you know, the day before president putin had many phone communications. leaders of various countries. leaders spoke with the president over the phone. the intention is to develop and improve cooperation against terrorism. the topic was discussed. there are no contacts with the westerners now. amy: for more, we are joined by two guests.

in a minute will speak with nina khrushcheva, professor of international affairs at the new school. first, we go to joshua yaffa, contributing writer to "the new yorker" who has been the magazine's moscow correspondent since 2016. his piece is just out headlined "how will putin respond to the terrorist attack in moscow?" welcome back to democracy now! how will and how is putin responding to this attack as we just listened to the long kremlin spokesperson? >> you highlighted rightly this is an awkward, to put it mildly, subject for putin given the warnings the west made publicly through that u.s. embassy news you read and also private warnings the u.s. national security council is talking about in which the u.s. shared some intelligence about prospect or likelihood of an attack and then putin at the meeting with

high-ranking embassy officials, the address he gave three days before the attack, dismissed those warnings as blackmail come as a ruse by the west. to put it mildly, quite awkward for putin given the scale of destruction and military tech. putin's instinctual reaction i think but based on political calculation and also genuine paranoid read of how things work was to try and cast a shadow on ukraine, suggesting somehow these isis-k terrorists had links to ukraine. that ukraine and perhaps the west were behind this attack that fits very much into putin's paranoid worldview. it is a convenient narrative for not just putin but the kremlin information machine to make sure the russian public would see propaganda outlets go into

overdrive, state media -- the head of rt really pushed this narrative that somehow ukraine must be involved. that even if the perpetrators, the ones who carried out the attack comport citizens of tajikistan, the real villain lies in ukraine. i think putin will continue to try to push this narrative to the extent possible. we saw clear signs of torture from the suspects were brought to moscow court. could torture be used to extract the confession that ukraine or the west are behind the attack? i think that is possible. we don't know. it is also possible given how awkward and uncomfortable this is of a subject and help does it not fit the larger kremlin narrative about the war in ukraine, the necessity of that war, the standoff with the west, the u.s. is the main enemy, that putin, kremlin may try and

change the conversation, move on , quickly change topics and not devote a lot of attention to this attack and see if they can't get the russian people to grimly absorb it as the russian public has had to grimly absorb so many tragedies in years. america i want to go to your reference to what russian president vladimir putin said suggesting ukraine was involved in the deadly attacks on crocus city hall, bound to punish all of those responsible. >> all four of the actual performance of the active terror , all those who shot and killed people, were found and detained. they tried to hide any were moving in the direction of ukraine. according to the preliminary data, that a crossing of the board prepared from the ukrainian side. all executors, planners come those who ordered this crime will be rightfully and

inevitably punished. whoever they are and whoever directed them. let me repeat, we will identify and punish everyone who stood behind the terrorist, who prepared this attack against russia, against our people. amy: that is vladimir putin. he said these people, that they were headed to the ukraine border. talk about who isis-k is that claimed responsibility for this attack. >> isis-k is a group, an affiliate of the larger isis or the isis we came to know in syria and iraq. it is based in central asia, afghanistan where it is most active, engaged in a civil war within the jihadi community with the taliban. has made russia a target for some time, citing russia's own campaign in the soviet union's campaign against -- in the 1980's up to russia's war

against isis air campaign in syria. the ground campaign involving mercenaries against isis around syria. russia's own repression and ongoing counterinsurgency against muslim communities, often times muslim extremist communities in the russian north caucasus. there is no share of grievance of isis-k, which does not really need to work very hard to try and find or justify targets most although in recent months, tried to plan attacks in europe, germany. those have been foiled. russia's in isis-k's crosshairs is nothing new or that surprising given what we know about the group. amy: i want to bring into the

conversation with joshua yaffa, nina khrushcheva, professor of international affairs at the new school. her book is titled "the lost khrushchev: journey into the gulag of the russian mind." also co-author of "in putin's footsteps: searching for the soul of an empire across russia's eleven time zones." i want to get your response as well to this attack. you have talked about it immediately going back to 2004, the school siege when christian robles -- chechen rebels occupied a school. whether you think come as joshua was just saying, putin, whose brand is so-called security, can just hope that this goes away very quickly in the minds of the russian people? >> putin can hope it goes away. there has been at least three

instances already since friday where various venues, including hospitals, have been evacuating. perhaps there are false warnings . it is really to destabilize this putin's claim that russia is stable. when we talk about putin's or russia's state dealing with islamic fundamentalists, it goes back to 2002 when a theater during a performance was attacked. then of course, the coup in 2006. there has been a study done from 1995-2006, it is not a clear number, approximate number,

about 20,000 people have been killed in those attacks by islamic fundamentalists. then there are the incidents in 2011, 2007 -- 2017, subways and other places in russia. that is the first time when russia dealt with isis, with isis-k, with this group that attacked on friday was in 2022 where the russian embassy in kabul was bombed and two people were killed. there has been more than one or two, over 10 or 20 instances of putin's or russia's dealing with it. in his response to the attack when he spoke for about six minutes after the attack on saturday, he spoke about the

nazis. because that is the important message he needs to deliver since his whole point in ukraine is did not suffocate in of ukraine. -- denazification of ukraine. should have been talking about the muslim treatment in russia in the islamic fundamentalist threat that is not just in russia but all over. unfortunately because russia seems to be denying local cooperation and that will create more problems, not just for the world but for russia come inside russia as well. amy: isis-k has targeted the united states with united states has left afghanistan. they've targeted pakistan, repeatedly targeted china, as well as russia. the significance -- these are different lines then we traditionally see. you are either attacking russia or united states. we see it as an east/west line.

isis-k does not. >> and that is why when he said there's no cooperation with the west, that is unfortunate. putin himself 20 years ago, he was the one who was encouraging the george bush administration -- george bushjr. administration to work together. even in 2015, was encouraging barack obama to work together on this kind of issues. clearly that time has long gone. now putin is going to be a lone actor in this. which does not bode well for russia because we probably will see more attacks like that in of russia is not going to listen to western warnings or any warnings, then in fact is how it is going to fight arising threat. we saw already france has raised its security level to the highest level. the threat once again come a global one, and russia will be

left alone, that the problem. amy: joshua yaffa, the piece you wrote before this piece that you wrote on how will putin respond to the attack came around the time of the second anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. it is headlined "how will putin respond to the terrorist attack in moscow?" you write putin's authoritarian drift has accelerated its to something representing a full-blown military dictatorship. how will this attack impact where he is headed? we see overnight massive attacks on ukraine. do you think it is try to redirect attention back to ukraine? what do you say to those who are saying they were headed to the ukraine border, that whether or not some of these attackers were tajik, that there is some hand

in it by ukraine? >> a few things. one, indeed, this is a transit that accelerated greatly since russia's invasion, which is russia's authoritarian drift. empowerment of the fsb becoming kind of the political police of russia. these began a long time ago and accelerated since the invasion. what we see is for all of putin 's authoritarian gathering of authoritarian control and handing over much authority to the fsb that these institutions are there to protect the regime, not the russian people. i think that is the great lesson of late stage putinism, true of so many autocracies that as they had more more control to secret police carry out mass repressions against their own citizens, analysis by a group

counted more political prisoners under putin they were under the leadership of the soviet period. what is it for? not to keep russia or the population say but to keep the regime say. i think that is important to understand. to determine how this attack happened in the first place. he cares about preserving his own power and the stability of his ruling system. how he might respond in terms of lashing out a ukraine trying to redirect attention to ukraine? you mention the massive russia drone and missile attack against ukrainian targets, kyiv, university attacked, kharkiv under rolling blackouts you mentioned. it will be tempting for the kremlin to try to deflect from

the real bowel accounts source of this terror attack -- isis tried to redirect from a more sellable target, ukraine. but it is not clear how much there is slack in the rope for russia to escalate more in ukraine. what is going to do more than it is already doing. these attacks against ukrainian cities and infrastructure have been going on really for two years since the invasion began. but in last weeks, we have seen russia ramp up the scale of these swarm attacks of ballistic missiles, drones, especially energy targets, trying to force blackouts, heating shut off and prices across ukraine. all of that was happening before these attacks. can russia do more? i guess but it is hard to think of russia escalating and all the tate of way -- qualitative way that it is been doing for the past two years.

whether or not there is any ukrainian links to this account, there is been zero credible evidence of this that has emerged. suspects were detained on a highway in the russian city about 140 kilometers from ukraine. were they headed to ukraine? who knows? they would cross one of the most heavily militarized borders. imagine what that would look like. the amount of military personnel, intelligence personnel watching that border. the idea people who just committed a terror attack could easily stink across the border seems a little far-fetched to me. again, we don't even know if they were planning to cross the border. to say they were apprehended at the ukrainian border is a stretch. beyond that fact, which in and of itself may not amount to

much, there's no other evidence whatsoever that would suggest ukraine has anything to do with this attack. beyond the kremlin's understandable urge to try to force that narrative first and foremost on the russian public to explain why the kremlin did not see this coming and wasn't able to prevent it. amy: professor, to talk about those energy attacks, this from "the financial times," the u.s. has urged cray to halt attacks on russia's energy infrastructure, warning the drone strikes risk driving up mobile oil prices and provoking retaliation. your response? >> and it is because joshua just talked about the recent russian attacks before the friday terrorist event. during the elections, during the process of putin's new term of president, ukraine escalated its

attacks on the cities around the russian border and on the oil and gas infrastructure. so russia retaliates back. in a sense, it becomes escalation one side, escalation on the others i've. obviously, russia is an invader but it -- escalation now in the last month has been going on both sides. i don't think ukraine cares. in fact, ukrainians did say they understand what the u.s. is asking for but they really can't care about this because they are at war. they fight the way they can, especially now, when the western aid, the aid from the united states, has been stalling in congress. they have to do something. so they are doing what they can. i don't think it is quite fair on the part of the other parties involved to say, well, don't do

it. they are at war and have to fight by the means possible. amy: joshua, you write "isis is on the kremlin's list of terrorist and extremist organizations is so is alexi navalny's political network." on friday, russia added "the worldwide lgbtq movement to the same list." what purpose does this list serve? >> very fair question that i would be -- we would be difficult for me to answer convincingly or rationally. the existence of this list or rather its composition, the fact you have isis on the same list of banned terrorists and extremist organizations next to alexi navalny's political and anticorruption foundation, something i'm not even sure any fair-minded person could understand how to define the so-called worldwide lgbt movement, whatever that is, shows the kremlin's priorities

in how it sees or what it sees as true danger. let's get back to what i said. the existence of the security apparatus. the reason for this creating so much power -- granting so much power to those like the fsb come the scale of political repression in russia. it is not about protecting russian people. it is about protecting the political power and the political regime of vladimir putin. who is a threat for vladimir putin? for example, the political organization with field offices around the country have alexi navalny posted lgbt movements again -- whatever that means come to talk about the worldwide lgbt movement. but by stigmatizing, scapegoating lgbt movements and individuals, putin is able to present his war and ukraine as values for against the decadent west with the same sex marriages and trans rights and so on.

very real human costs behind inclusion and stigmatization and scapegoating of groups, for example, like lgbt community. just this week come the first prosecution come the first arrest we have seen of two people to connection with violation of this law -- in other words, two people who owned a gay bar in russia. they had been arrested for this fact and could face prison sentences of up to nine years for aiding the so-called extremist terrorist and is asian. one has to wonder about their priorities of a political system and the government that equates isis terrorists with owners of a gay bar. who are they devoting these to track, monitor, go after, how are those resources being allocated? i think some obvious questions arise about the true motives and

interest of such a regime based on where they parcel at resources, who they see as enemies, and who are they policing -- isis terrorists or the owners of gay bars? amy: i want to thank you both for being with us. we will continue to follow what has taken place in moscow. joshua yaffa, contributing writer to "the new yorker" who been a long time moscow correspondent. speaking to us from berlin, germany. we will link to his new piece "how will putin respond to the terrorist attack in moscow?" nina khrushcheva, professor of the new school. her book is titled "the lost khrushchev: journey into the gulag of the russian mind." co-author of "impotence." footsteps." breaking news, going the ceo plans to resign by the end of the year. the justice department recently opened a criminal probe into the company.

there is a mem going around that says "when one door closes, another one opens." next up, we will speak with the world peace foundation's alex de waal who says we are about to witness and gaza the most intense famine since the second world war. we will also talk to him about catastrophic hunger in sudan. back in 20 seconds. ♪ [music break]

amy: "farasha " by alsarah. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we turn now to gaza, where the aid groups say famine is imminent after five months of u.s.-backed attacks by israel, but the head of the aid agency unrwa saying israel is now denying access to all unrwa food convoys to northern gaza, even though the region is on the brink of famine. the unrwa chief wrote -- on saturday, the u.n. secretary general travel to the rafah border crossing. >> a long line of blocked relief trucks on one side of the gates

comes along shadow of starvation on the other. that is more than tragic. it is a moral outrage. it is time to truly flood gaza with lifesaving aid. the choice is clear -- either starvation. let's choose the right side of history. amy: for more, we are joined by alex de waal, the executive director of the world peace foundation at tufts university and author of "mass starvation: the history and future of famine." his new piece for the guardian , "we are about to witness in gaza the most intense famine since the second world war." welcome back to democracy now! describe what is happening at a time when israel is now preventing the largest aid umbrella in gaza, unrwa, from delivering aid to northern gaza where famine is the most intense.

>> let's make no mistake, we talk about imminent famine or being at the brink of famine. when a population is in this extreme cataclysmic food emergency, ready children are dying in significant numbers of hunger and needless disease. the two interacting in a vicious spiral that is killing them. likely in thousands already. it is very arbitrary to say, we're at the brink of famine. it is a particular measure of the utter extremity of human survival -- threat to human survival. we have never actually since the metrics for measuring acute food crisis were developed some 20 years ago, we have never seen a situation either in which an

entire population of gaza is in food crisis, food emergency for famine or such simple large numbers of people descending into starvation simply hasn't happened before in our lifetimes. amy: how can it be prevented? >> well, it is been very clear. back in december, the famine review committee of the integrated food security phase classification system -- that is sort of ultimate barometer, the high court if you would of humanitarian assessments -- made it absolutely clear. i can quote, "this is station of hostilities in conjunction with sustained restoration of humanitarian access to the gaza strip remain the essential prerequisites for preventing famine." it said that in famine and

reiterated again last week. restoring essential services. amy: p new explain what the ipc is and also talk about the effects of famine for the rest of the lives of those who survive, of children? >> the ipc, which is sort for the integrated food security phase classification system, is the system that the international monitoring agencies adopted some 20 years ago to try and come to a standardized metric. it uses five classifications of food insecurity. it comes out in color-coded maps , which are very easy to understand. green is phase one, which is normal. yellow is phase two, which is

stressed. orange brown is phase three, which is crisis. red is emergency. in the very first prototype of the ipc, this was called famine but they reclassified it as emergency. dark blood red is catastrophe or famine. this measures the intensity. there's also the question of the magnitude, the sheer numbers involved. which in the case of gaza, essentially, the entire population of over 2 million. starvation is not just something that is experienced from which people can recover. we have long-standing evidence -- the best evidence come actually come is from holland where the dutch population suffered what they called the hunger winter back in 1944 in world war ii. the dutch been able to track the

lifelong effects of starvation of young children and children are not yet born in utero. they find those children when they grow up are shorter. they are stunted. they have lower cognitive capacities and their elder or younger siblings. his even goes on to the next generation. so when little girls are exposed to this and grow and become mothers, their own children also suffer those effects, albeit on a lesser scale. this will be a calamity that will be felt for generations. amy: what are you calling for, alex de waal? in a moment we're going to be talking about what is happening in sudan. it is horrifying to go from one famine to another. but the idea that we are talking

about completely man-made situation here. >> indeed. it is not only man-made, therefore, it is men who will stop it. sadly, even if there is a ceasefire and humanitarian assistance, it will be too late to save the lives of hundreds, probably thousands, of children who are at the brink now and are living in these terrible, overcrowded situations without basic water, sanitation. a crisis like this cannot be stopped overnight. it is a crisis that is not just a humanitarian crisis. it is fundamentally a political crisis, a crisis of an abrogation of essentially agreed international humanitarian law. indeed, international criminal

law. there is overwhelming evidence that this is the war crime of starvation being perpetrated at scale. amy: alex de waal, we are going to turn now for what is happening in gaza. we will link to your piece "we are about to witness in gaza the most intense famine since the second world war." we now turn now to sudan, where around half the population has become reliant on food aid as the united nations warns the war-torn country is on track to become the world's worst hunger crisis. >> malnutrition is soaring to alarming levels and is already claiming children's lives. a recent report revealed that one child is dying every two hours at a camp in north darfur. our humanitarian partners estimate in the coming weeks and months, somewhere in the region of around 222,000 children could

die from malnutrition. and with the estimated who estimates more than 70% of health facilities are not functional. amy: the conflict between the sudanese military and the rival rapid support forces, or rsf, erupted nearly a year ago on april 15, 2023 and has displaced over 8 million people. around 90% of the population facing emergency levels of food insecurity in sudan are in khartoum, darfur, and kordofan -- areas which have seen some of the most intense fighting. but the u.n.'s appeal for $2.7 billion for sudan is less than 5% funded. aid is also drying up in chad, where some 1.2 million sudanese have taken refuge. the war has also led to many reports of armed forces using

rape and sexual violence as a weapon. and some 19 million children have been deprived of school. alex de waal, famine is your area of expertise. you are executive director of the world peace foundation at tufts university and the author of the book "mass starvation: the history and future of famine." what concerns you most about what is happening in sudan right now? >> sudan is a different kind of food crisis and famine compared to gaza. this is one of enormous magnitude. the sheer numbers affected a hard to grapple with. sudan is a country of almost 50 million people. almost half are in emergency situation now. you said earlier, reliant on food aid. frankly, unfortunately, the aid is not there. even as we speak, the world food

program, which is the largest food aid producer, is cutting its budget, cutting its staff by 30% because it is not getting the money it needs. it is not a perfect system by any means, but it is the only system that we have got. what particularly alarms me about sudan are three things. number one, unlike previous food crises in sudan, core of the economy is been destroyed. the breadbasket of sudan is not growing food. secondly, the crisis not just in sudan. most of the neighbors are affected. chad, also south sudan, is also facing a major food emergency. and ethiopia next door. we have never seen so many neighboring countries in this region for sending to food emergencies -- sending into food

emergencies at the same time. this is all happening while the international emergency system is being squeezed. it is facing major cuts. we have some pretty not responding as required stop it is quite calamitous. amy: i want to go to a clip from unicef, which warrants hundreds of thousands of sudanese children are suffering from severe malnutrition. this is jill lawler, chief of field operations and emergency for unicef in sudan. >> the numbers of acutely malnourished children are rising. the lean season hasn't even begun. nearly 3.7 million children are projected to be acutely malnourished, including 730,000 who need life-saving treatment. the need for children in khartoum are massive but this is also true in darfur where i was last month on a cross-border mission through chat. the scale and ended to do need for children across the country are simply staggering.

sudan is now the world's largest displacement crisis. some of the most vulnerable children are in the hardest to reach places. amy: how is this remedied, alex de waal? nearly 230,000 children, pregnant mothers, and new mothers could die it is been predicted in the next months due to hunger. >> indeed, this is the largest sort of mass mortality crisis that we are facing in the world. the largest we have probably faced for many decades. certainly, the largest since i started working on this topic 40 years ago at the time of the ethiopian and sudanese famines that many will remember from the live aid concerts. how is it to be stopped? the two most immediate things are a ceasefire and the end to

the destruction of what is necessary to sustain life and produce food in sudan. there doesn't seem to be much sign of that. there is not much pressure on the warring parties to come to any sort of even basic agreement. they seem to what to continue to fight it out. various countries are pouring in arms into the country to escalate the conflict. but the other is also to fund this humanitarian operation, as you mentioned, is totally underfunded at the moment. they are almost no resources available to provide the necessities for people. amy: in fact, the world food program -- we were talking about gaza, talking about the massive cuts to unrwa. the world food program at the united nations has also massive cuts. >> it is shocking.

i was trying to talk a few days ago to some old colleagues who work on these issues. i find they have been reassigned or they have lost their jobs. we only have one global emergency response system at the moment, and that is centered upon the world food program. we need to make it work. because if it does not work, we are going to find ourselves facing the kinds of crises of mass mortality that we simply have not seen for half a century or longer. amy: alex de waal, thank you for being with us, executive director of the world peace foundation at tufts university and the author of "mass starvation: the history and future of famine." we will link to your pieces on sudan and gaza and more. that does it for our show.

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