11/10/23 11/10/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> we are all here to charge this administration with genocide. israel and the united states are jointly complicit in the ongoing nakba i in palestine.

amy: in scenes reminiscent of the 1948 nakba, tens of thousands of palestinians continue to flee on foot from their homes in northern gaza as israel intensifies its aerial and ground assault. three palestinian groups have petitioned the international criminal court to investigate israel for committing genocide and apartheid. we will speak to palestinian human rights attorney noura erekat. but first, we talk to the israeli-born historian and brown university professor omer bartov, one of the world's leading authorities on genocide. >> israeli political and military leaders have made very startling and frightening statements about gaza, speaking about flattening gaza, speaking about moving the entire population of gaza out of gaza. so those statements show intent.

and that is a genocidal intent, which is often difficult to prove. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. israeli tanks have surrounded hospitals in the gaza strip following a series of strikes on palestinian medical facilities. the world health organization reports al-shifa in gaza, the territories largest hospital, remains under heavy bombardment. thousands of palestinians left homeless by previous attacks have been sheltering under tents in the hospital's courtyard. the al-nasr children's hospital in gaza city reports it was attacked twice on thursday and nearly had to halt operations. and the al-rantisi children's hospital, home to gaza's only pediatric cancer ward, caught fire after an israeli strike. video shows patients and medical

workers evacuating caring white flags and running in a panic at the sound of gunfire. at least six of gaza's hospitals have come under fire in the past 24 hours. the palestinian death toll is nearing 11,000, including 4400 children. on thursday, the white house said israel had agreed to posits assault on northern gaza for four up to six hours per day to allow soleus to flee south. the u.n. estimates on thursday alone, 50,000 people were forced to travel on foot along israel's military calling a humanitarian corridor. many of them compare the mass expulsion to the 1948 nakba that saw about 700,000 palestinians pushed out of their homes and turned into refugees during the creation of the state of israel. >> what do things look like behind us? destruction and death.

it has become a second nakba for the palestinians. what more does the world want? >> the northern and western areas of gaza are burning. they are driving people to schools and scaring them so they would leave. what we see is a plan for second nakba. amy: nakba means catastrophe in arabic. you can see our full interview with craig mciver at democracynow.org. the pentagon says two u.s. fighter planes bombed an ammunition depot used by iran-backed militia groups in

eastern syria wednesday. the reported airstrike follows a series of drone and missile attacks on u.s. troops stationed in iraq and syria. this week the pentagon reported 46 injuries to u.s. military personnel over the last month. on thursday, yemen's houthi rebels said they had shot down a u.s. drone over the red sea and fired a barrage of long-range missiles toward israel. a houthi spokesperson said more attacks would follow until israel halts its aggression against palestinians. in paris, the united nations' top relief official martin griffiths warned thursday that israel's assault on gaza is poised to trigger a much wider war across the middle east. >> war is a virus that always wants to expand. in the current conflict, it is a wildfire that could consume the region, could spread. these could be the good days

when we see what could happen tomorrow. amy: here in the united states top state department official , a said wednesday the number of palestinians killed by israeli airstrikes is likely far higher than the more than 10,000 reported by the gaza health ministry. barbara leaf, the assistant secretary of state for near eastern affairs, was testifying to a house panel. >> it is difficult for any of us to assess what the rate of casualties are. we think they are very high, frankly, and it could be they are even higher than -- we will only know after the guns fall silent. amy: barbara leaf's testimony comes after president biden and senior white house officials cast doubt on the gaza health ministry's count of the killed and wounded. even though human rights groups, united nations, and even the u.s. state department, regularly cite those figures. here in new york, hundreds of people shut down multiple streets across midtown manhattan thursday for another round of protests demanding a ceasefire in gaza and an end to the israeli occupation of palestine. hundreds of public school students joined walkouts.

meanwhile, a large group of media workers led a march to "the new york times" and later occupied the paper's building entrance for over an hour, denouncing what demonstrators called biased reporting toward israel. protesters read the names of the at least 36 journalists killed by israeli fire in gaza and distributed mock newspapers with the words "the new york war crimes," accusing "the times" with "complicity and laundering genocide." this is palestinian writer and poet mohammed el-kurd. >> it is incredible to see hundreds of writers and journalists take part in this action. it is telling us -- denying war crimes and in the life of palestinians as though they are less and and -- completely

unacceptable. and if we're going to be truthful and loyal -- amy: world-renowned photographer has canceled a "new york times" project over what she calls its complicity with israel and "how the question of veracity of anything palestinians say." the outspoken artist has been active in recent protest for palestinian rights including this week's takeover of the statue of liberty by over 500 people led by jewish voice for peace. nan goldin also signed onto a letter of 2000 artists, including carol walker and tilda swinton, demanding a cease-fire. meanwhile, students on college campuses across the united states have been protesting israel's u.s.-funded assault on gaza amid an intensifying crackdown from school authorities. at brown university, 20 jewish students who participated in a

sit-in to demand brown consider a divestment resolution were arrested on wednesday. hundreds of fellow students sang jewish prayers outside brown's university hall in solidarity with the sit-in. students with the m.i.t. coalition against apartheid held a peaceful protest despite threats from the school's administration. >> we are here because m.i.t. has threatened all protesters who just happened to be at the demonstration. we must fight. >> there's a lot of energy. a lot of people [indiscernible] amy: here in new york city, students at the columbia school of social work held a sit-in protest despite multiple threats of academic sanctions.

on capitol hill, students protested at a congressional hearing wednesday calling out the demonization of pro-palestinian voices and what they called unjust charges of anti-semitism to suppress any criticism of israel. students were thrown out of the hearing and arrested. the house hearing was called "free speech on college campuses." in the democratic republic of the congo, a record nearly-7 million people have been displaced due to ongoing conflict and violence. that's according to the international organization for migration which warns its' one -- it is one of the largest internal displacement and humanitarian crises in the world. the congo's eastern region has been the worst hit due to fighting between dozens of armed groups. local communities have led protests against u.n. peacekeepers saying they've failed to prevent escalating violence. just last month, at least eight u.n. peacekeepers in eastern congo were suspended over allegations of sexual assault. west virginia senator joe manchin said thursday he will

not seek re-election in 2024. the conservative democrat has earned millions of dollars from his family-owned coal business and is congress' largest recipient of fossil fuel industry contributions. even as he announced his decision thursday, manchin appeared to leave open the possibility of a run for the white house. >> i believe in my heart of hearts i have accomplished what i set out to do for west virginia. i had made one of the toughest decisions of my life and decided i will not be running for reelection to united states senate. what i will be doing is traveling the country and speaking out to see if there is an interesting creating a movement to mobilize the middle. , co-senator -- amy: senator manchin has received the support of the billionaire-backed organization no labels, which is exploring whether to run a third-party candidate for president. meanwhile, dr. jill stein announced thursday she will seek the green party's 2024 presidential nomination. stein ran for the presidency in

i-16. she recently was the campaign manager for cornel west but now running independently for president. a federal court in alaska has sided with the biden administration in its approval of the willow project. conocophillips' $8 billion oil and gas project in alaska's western arctic reserve is projected to emit more than 260 million metric tons of greenhouse gases over the next 30 years. climate and indigenous groups who have been fighting the project say they are considering an appeal of the court's decision. the state of texas has executed brent brewer, a 53-year-old who spent three decades on death row. his lawyers argued the jury handed down a death sentence based on the testimony of a forensic psychiatrist who never examined brewer and whose arguments were later declared to be junk science by a texas appeals court. one of the jurors who agreed to the death sentence later recanted. and the justice department has

launched an investigation into civil rights violations by police in the majority black mississippi city of lexington. this is assistant attorney general kristen clarke. >> we will assess whether the police department uses excessive force, violates people civil and constitutional rights during stops, searches, and arrest, engages in discriminatory policing, or violence people civil rights to engage in speech or conduct protected by the constitution. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. "if there is a hell on earth, it is the north of gaza." those were the words of a u.n. official earlier today as israel intensifies it aerial and ground assault. tens of thousands of palestinians have fled on foot

or northern gaza after being forcibly displaced by israel's bombardment. more than half of all homes in gaza have been destroyed or damaged over the last month. on thursday, the biden administration announced israel had agreed to implement what the white house described as daily four-hour pauses in areas of northern gaza to give palestinians a chance to head south. many palestinians fear they will never be allowed to return home. some have accused the biden administration of facilitating the ethnic cleansing of gaza. images of palestinians fleeing on foot have been widely compared to the nakba when some 700,000 palestinians were violently expelled from their homes upon israel's founding. we begin today's show with the israeli-born historian omer bartov, who recently signed an open letter warning of israel committing a potential genocide in gaza. omer bartov is a professor of holocaust and genocide studies at brown university. the united states holocaust

memorial museum has cited him as one of the world's leading specialists on the subject of genocide. he is the author of numerous books, including most recently, "genocide, the holocaust and israel-palestine: first-person history in times of crisis." juan gonzalez and i spoke to professor omer bartov on wednesday from his home in cambridge, massachusetts. i began by asking him to talk about his own experience serving as an israeli soldier in the northern sinai in the 1970's and how it has impacted his view on what is going on today. >> i was a soldier between 1973-1976. so as a young soldier, the first thing i experienced was the trauma, the huge surprise of the

egyptian and syrian attack on israel october 6, 19 73. i should say when the hamas on israel occurred october 7, 2020 3, 50 years and a day later, that was quite traumatic i think for myself and any members of my generation. we can talk further about why it was so traumatic. but in the course of my service, i also served in the northern sinai. the command post to belong to was in gaza. i would go quite often to gaza, which was then had a population of about 350,000, was poor, hopeless, and congested. and since then, of course, now we have between 2 million and 2.5 million people living in gaza, which is more poor, much

more congested, more desperate and has been desperate for a long time considering it has been under israeli siege now for 16 years. for me, the lack of grass -- progress for all those years and somehow resolving this terrible humanitarian problem is very personal. i was usually not employed as a soldier in occupation duties, but there was a time that i was and i have a very distinct recollection about leaving my platoon through an egyptian city of the time people looking at us from behind the windows, obviously, not wanting us to be there. obviously afraid of us. and us walking on the street feeling uncomfortable being

where we are and being somewhat afraid of what might happen to us as we were marching. that sort of sense of being in occupation soldier stayed with me all those years and has always made me -- one of the reasons, more personal rather than political and analytical reason why i have always thought it is time to end this occupation for which we called in that august for petition, two months before the hamas attack on israel. juan: professor, i am wondering, we hear often now these days, especially in complex such as these, the terms "crime against humanity," "genocide." most people don't understand the this distinction.

say war crime is a must redundant. if you could give us more of a sense, distinction between these terms? >> yes, so i think that it's a really important question because people, as you say, just use these without thinking what they mean. because genocide is perceived as the worst crime, any atrocity that happens, anything that people think is deserved. something extreme, they call genocide. there are u.n. resolutions on war crimes and genocide. they defined them clearly. now, one can dispute the definitions but those are the definitions under international law. the u.n. convention on genocide from 1948 defines it as the

intent to destroy in whole or part the national ethnic, racial, religious group as such. that is a very important definition because it calls for two things. it calls first of all for intention. you have to show the killing is intentional. it is not just part of war, part of violence, but is intentional. second, the intention is to destroy that group defined as such by the perpetrator as such. it is the killing of individuals as members of a particular group. that is very different from war crimes. war crimes, violations of the laws in war against both combatants and noncombatants come civilians. and crimes against humanity has to do with extermination or other mass crimes against any civilian population.

you do not have intent and does not have to happen at a time of war. it is important to distinguish between these three categories. i would add to it a third, which is a definition, although there is a rose dilution, which is ethnic cleansing. ethnic cleansing is the attempt to remove a group from a particular territory, usually because you what the territory and you don't the people living on it to stay on it. genocide is the intent to kill a particular group wherever it is. but there's a connection between the two because often ethnic cleansing becomes genocide. that happened in the armenian genocide in world war i and it happened also in the holocaust, which began as an attempt to remove jews from particular territories and then when the germans felt there's no place to move them to, they decided to murder them en masse.

if we think about these different categories, we can distinguish between what we see on the ground and how we feel about it. juan: and your sense of what is happening in terms of these categories right now in gaza? >> my sense is the following. israeli political leaders and military leaders have made very startling and frightening statements about gaza, speaking about flattening gaza, speaking about hamas sort of extending it also extension gazans in general as human animals, speaking about moving the entire population of gaza out of gaza. that is a clear intention of ethnic cleansing. those statements show intent and

that is a genocidal intent, which is often difficult to prove. people carry out genocide don't always want to say they are doing it. the second is what are they actually doing there? military leaders on the ground keep saying what they're trying to do is to hit hamas targets, that hamas often -- and i think it is often true -- places its own headquarters, rockets, and so forth under hospitals come inside mosques, playgrounds, schools, and so forth. so the military claim they are trying to attack hamas and not the population but unfortunately the population is also getting killed. in that sense, there is clear disproportionate killing of civilians. that is the numbers you quoted earlier are now estimated to be over 10,000. even if we don't believe the numbers given out by hamas, it

is still in the many thousands and may even be more because many bodies are probably buried under the debris. and of those, at least 4000 our children. we have to remember half of the population of gaza is under 18 years old. to me there is any indication there are war crimes happening in gaza, potentially also crimes against humanity. whether at the moment this is genocide, my own since it is not genocide at the moment because there is still no clear indication of an intent to destroy the entire population, which would be genocide. but we are very close on the verge of that. if the so-called operation continues, that may become ethnic cleansing with the move of so many palestinians from northern gaza to southern gaza. and that may become genocide. amy: professor omer bartov, i

was struck by you saying it was in august you joined other leading historians and israeli scholars in signing this letter criticizing the "regime of apartheid." so that is two months before hamas attack october 7. often these days, after the attack that killed over 1300 people in israel, if you raise any kind of context you are accused of justifying what happened. if you as a historian can talk about your use of that term -- i remember years ago interviewing the nobel laureate archbishop tutu in south africa. and he said when he went to the occupied territories, he found it worse than apartheid in some of south africa, which he survived.

so you're clearly thought out use of this term and then a discussion about what it means to try to explain what is happening, including using the term "occupation"? >> let me say when we crafted that statement and we worked on it quite a bit in july and finally issued it, the so-called elephant in the room -- the elephant in the room we were talking about was the occupation. which we defined as in the west bank as a regime of apartheid. the reason we did it at the time was, as you remember, there were vast protests in israel against netanyahu's government's attention so call overhaul the judicial system, which was really an attempt to undermine the rule of law and order to

strengthen the executive and we can the judiciary -- wekaken the judiciary with the goal of extending the occupation regime in the west bank. and finally, of annexing that area and making life impossible for the palestinian population there. there are over half a million jewish settlers there and somewhere around 3 million palestinians living there. what we mean bipartite? -- i apartheid? people tend to think of south africa. the term comes from there but there is a u.n. resolution on apartheid that defines it. curiously, all the elements that are mentioned in that resolution exist also in the west bank. the most important of which is you have two populations in the

west bank, jews and palestinians. the jews are living under israel i law or some sort of figment that creates them as living under israeli law. they can vote to the israeli parliament. they enjoy all the rights of democracy the jews in israel enjoy. the palestinians live under completely different set of laws that give them almost no rights at all. that is their live under a military regime. they are tried before military courts where the judges or lawyers on reserve -- israeli lawyers on reserve service. one can detain them endlessly in prison. these are two groups that live under totally different laws. they are separated from each other by a set of roads,

roadblocks, check posts that make life increasingly difficult for palestinians and make life much better for the jewish population there. from that point of view, this clearly is an apartheid regime in the west bank and that has, in many ways, filtered into israel. that is, generation after generation of young israeli men and women are called up and go to serve as policeman in the west bank in military uniform. most of what they do is police the population. that has a corrupting impact on more and more generations of these release who get used to the idea they can break into homes at 4:00 in the morning, arrest whoever they like, so that effect is not only that we have an apartheid regime, but we have a corruption of democracy

in israel itself which ultimately resulted in this attempt on netanyahu's resume to change the very system of democracy in israel, which really was only for jews in the first place. juan: i am wondering, you mentioned previously the acquiescence or the refusal to confront the problem in general in israeli society of the occupation. why do you think that is? especially given the fact israel in its early years had a very vibrant labor, socialist, humanitarian movement among those who created the state of israel? why did this happen? >> i would say the simple answer is power corrupts and that israel has suffered for years from a kind of euphoria of power.

when i talked about the sort of link between what happened in 1973 and what happened in 2023, it is exactly that. that is israel came to believe it is strong enough to be able to do what it likes and it does not need to have any political compromise. which means -- the war of 1973 could have had been afforded had israel set with the president of egypt, which it did eventually come after the war, and return the sinai peninsula and receive peace in return. but 3000 israeli soldiers were killed, some of whom were my classmates. and the same happened now that is israel refused to talk about any territorial compromise and believes hamas can lob a few rockets are fed by large it is not a problem for it. and therefore, there is no need to think of any territorial

compromise. and this became the sense in the large sectors of the israeli public. people could live in tel aviv come have a good time, have a good life, and 20 miles to the east, there was an apartheid regime. it has little to do with them. and the curious thing was, and this is what we were trying to point out in august, was the people who were protesting -- the hundreds of thousands of israelis who quite remarkably went out to the street every saturday to protest against the erosion of democracy in israel refused to talk about the occupation. when i was there protesting against that, we were marginalized. we were pushed to the side. people said, that is a difficult term. not everybody agrees on that. let's talk of -- let's not talk

about it now. in fact, it was the core of the very attempt to change the rules of the game in israel. amy: in a moment, we will return to our conversation with omer bartov, professor of holocaust and genocide studies at brown university. he is an israeli-american scholar who has been described by the united states holocaust memorial museum as one of the world's leading specialists on the subject of genocide. back in 20 seconds. ♪ [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

we returned to omer bartov, professor of holocaust and genocide studies at brown university. he is an israeli-american scholar who has been described by the united states holocaust memorial museum as one of the world's leading specialists on genocide. he spoke to us one day after the house voted to censure rashida tlaib, the only palestinian-american member of congress for her criticism of israel. amy: professor, your professor at brown university in providence. york in cambridge right now. i wanted to ask you about the dissent on college campuses and how they are being dealt with. in cambridge at harvard, you know about the students who were protesting on behalf of palestinian rights, a truck carries around their faces and above their faces it says "anti-semite." and on television, you will see

pieces on anti-semitism, which is very real in the world. for example, the burning of the austrian cemetery in vienna and many other situations. but they will be blended together. this is on the mainstream networks. with images of people protesting holding a palestinian flag. can you talk about what is happening on college campuses and people fearing that their concern for justice is being translated as antisemitism and because for them to be blacklisted? >> look, this is a very complex issue, i agree. i think part of it is, frankly, ignorance about the reality on the ground in israel-palestine. and that has to do obviously not with your show but much of how the mainstream media in the

united states is presenting things. but also young people, students can find other sources of information to better know what is happening on the ground. generally, i think there's a little bit of issue of information. anti-semitism is real and has been growing, frightening phenomenon. obviously, i have no sympathy with it. but there is and has been for a long time a tendency to label any criticism of the state of israel, any criticism of the policies of any particular government, let alone israel as a state as such, as antisemitism. that is a policy of the right wing in israel and the right wing in this country, and it is nothing to do with the truth. one can be zionist or

non-zionist and knobby antisemitic. one can be zionist against particular israeli policies. i strongly support the existence of the state of israel and i am highly critical of its policies. and some people would call me a self hating jew. that is nonsense. that has to do with criticism of policies that not only function as oppression of palestinians over a very long period of time -- 50, 60 years of occupation of palestinians and refusal by the israeli government to talk about what happened in 1948. so this kind of shutting up the entire conversation. and at the same time, they believe jews, like other nations, have a right of self-determination. so we have to separate the two.

i think at the moment, in the demonstrations, there is a sort of heightening of fascists. in part it is because of the policies of the israeli government. i do feel that when people march in support a palestinian lives -- and i'm very much in favor of that -- one also has to remember what happened on over seven. on october 7, over 1000 jewish civilians, israeli jewish slaves -- there were some arabs and bedouins who live there, too, were butchered in the most heinous manner. this was live-streamed. this has been deeply wounding to israeli society. almost every person in israel knows people who were killed or kidnapped, including myself.

members of my own family were either killed or now in gaza. and one has to record there are 240 people now held as hostages. i think that when one protests the policies of israel for the sake -- and this also has to do with what representative to leave said, which i completely agree with. i thought it was a moving speech. it is also important to stress the other side. there has been a dehumanization of both sides. occupation humanizes people. it dehumanizes the occupier and the occupied. and the way to deal with this is to talk about the political future. how do we move forward? a cease-fire would be wonderful and i'm very much in support of it, but it won't put an end to

the violence. that will only come as a result of a peaceful resolution of this hundred-year-old conflict which has caused so much blood. that is what i think we should try to push the american administration to do, to put pressure on the israeli government to finally relent and begin negotiations with the palestinians. amy: let me ask about the term from "the river to the sea," which the israeli government takes and those who charge others with antisemitism say it means the annihilation of the jewish population of israel. i am looking at the likud party platform of march 1977, the right of the jewish people in the land of israel. it says, the right of the jewish people to the land of israel is eternal.

indisputable. it is linked with the right to security and peace, therefore judeo and samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration between the sea and the jordan, there will only be israeli sovereignty. can't you talk about that term -- can you talk about that term? >> the originators of the likud party, the revisionist part of zionism and the great leaders had a song they use to sing and it was the jordan has two banks, this one belongs to us and the other one, too. that is they were not only talking actually about so-called historical palestine, which is mandatory palestine of the inter-war period, there also talking about parts of the jordan of what is now the kingdom of jordan as belonging

to the future jewish state. so when we talk about from the jordan to the sea, we are talking about the territory that is now controlled by israel. in that territory, there are 7 million jews and 7 million palestinians. most of the population of gaza, refugees in gaza. 7 million versus 7 million. to talk about a palestinian state or a jewish state between the jordan in the sea, the question arises, so what happened -- what will happen to the other half? that is really the question. if one talks about a palestinian state that refuses to recognize the jewish right of

self-determination, that is of the right of jews to have a state of their own, the question is, what will happen to the jew s? will they go back to europe? whatever that means. and if you have the likud party and now the much more radical really jewish supremacist elements in netanyahu's government, these people who trace their roots back to nazis, if you ask yourself, what do they mean? they want to create a jewish state that does not have palestinians and it nor arabs in it. the palestinians -- nick life as unbearable for the palestinians so there they will finally move out, or use an emergency situation such as exists right now under the cover of which

they could be ethnically cleansed. that is a major worry now. worried about a second nakba, something that has been mentioned by a number of israeli politicians. and a major worry in the west bank that in gaza. what we need to think of is not the term from the jordan to the sea, which is the territory that israel now controls, but how does that territory get to be shared by these two groups in ways that do not include oppression, lack of any rights, lack of equality, and certainly does not include violence and expulsion? amy: finally, professor omer bartov, the issue of a two state solution or one state solution? if you could take that on in a nutshell? >> i used to be a strong

supporter of the two state solution and i gradually realized this was sort of fig leaf of the israeli left while the country kept settling the west bank and making it impossible to create an independent palestinian state. we kept saying well, but at the end, there will be a two state solution. so the traditional two state solution to my mind is no longer viable. what is viable? i think i belong -- i belong to a group of people who have been talking about it for quite a while. the only solution is a configuration which would mean there would be two states, a jewish state and a palestinian state. they both would have full serenity and -- sovereignity. there would be the green line but they would make a distinction between residency and citizenship. so that people all, say jews who

live in a palestinian state, could remain israeli citizens who have rights of residency in a palestinian state but have to than it here to all the lulls, rules, resolutions of that palestinian state. and palestinians would like to live in haifa like a french man from paris would like to live in berlin, could move to haifa and they could have rights of residency but they would have to conform to all the rules and regulations of the israeli state but they would vote to a palestinian parliament. and jerusalem would be the joint capital of both. and above that, there would be institutions that would take care of their mutual affairs of these two states, which are very tightly woven together now by the infrastructure, electricity,

water, and so forth. it is really impossible to cut them apart. that is right now, of course, sounds like a pipe dream. but i think in the long run, that is probably the only viable solution. i will add one less thing to that, which is very important both to jews and palestinians, which is both states would have the right of return. the jews could say as they say now, jews who what to become israeli citizens can come and palestinians in the palestinians they could say all palestinian refugees who would like to come back to palestine could come and become palestinian citizens and the certain roles could move to the israeli part of the so-called mandatory palestine as residents. amy: and one is simply a one state solution? >> i think one state solution is

one another one side or the other wants because the palestinians quite rightly want the right of self-determination, want to have their own state as do the jews. both sides are afraid the other side would be more powerful. obviously, right now under the current conditions come the state of israel is much more powerful militarily, economically danny palestinian part of -- than the palestinian part of the land. in that sense, a one state solution would actually perpetuate jewish supremacy in the whole country. amy: omer bartov is professor of holocaust and genocide studies at brown university. these red have an american scholar is one of the leading specialists on the subject of genocide.

coming, three palestinian groups have petitioned the international criminal court to investigate israel for committing genocide and apartheid. back in 30 seconds. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. three palestinian human rights groups have filed a lawsuit with international criminal court calling on the icc to issue arrest warrants for is for israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu and other leaders for genocide, incitement to genocide, and the crime of apartheid. the three groups told the court that israel suffocating siege of gaza and indiscriminate attacks

on densely populated civilian areas amount to war crimes. crimes against humanity, and genocide. the lawsuit also seeks the arrest of israeli president isaac herzog and the defense minister. this comes as the death toll in gaza is nearing 11,000 according to palestinian health officials. we're joined now by palestinian human rights attorney noura erekat, associate professor at rutgers university. author of "justice for some: law and the question of palestine." part of the palestinian team avenue academics, intellectuals, and activists who helped bring a icc lawsuit. welcome back to democracy now! if you can explain what this lawsuit is all about? >> absolutely. this lawsuit comes as a collective effort on behalf of the three organization you mentioned who are on the ground

and documenting the ongoing atrocities. it is one of a myriad of efforts that have been filed before the international criminal court. very recently, reporters without borders have also submitted a petition calling on the icc to investigate the no killing of 34 journalists, several of them while they were working during this onslaught. the one thing we want to highlight is this is not merely a lawsuit against israeli individuals as stipulated by the petition, would you very much is, but it is also been on trial the international criminal court , the international criminal law, international legal institutions as a whole which have demonstrated an absolute double standard when it comes to the global south. we have seen this in the tenure of the icc, which since its establishment, has opened over

two dozen cases -- all of them on the african continent. all of those who have been indicted with the exception of one have been arab and african individuals, heads of state, officials. here we are pushing the icc to either hold israel to account and what is an ongoing genocide where the leaders have told us they have the specific intent to destroy the palestinian people in whole or in part or demonstrate for us this is actually a moment where the icc demonstrates it is not effective, that it is part of punishing a global south and letting western countries move forward with impunity. we spoke to the world-renowned human rights attorney in gaza in

heartbreaking plea from raji who remained in northern gaza after his house was bombed. he particularly held the lead prosecutor of the icc called him out saying when russia attacked the children of ukraine, the icc immediately opened war crimes investigation. and then raised the issue of where is he on israel and palestine. if you can address this and also talked about an icc case that has already been opened -- in a in official investigation back in 2021 in west bank, gaza and east drusilla? >> raji is right. the prosecutor of the icc opened the investigation within a week of russia's invasion of ukraine, issued an arrest warrant for vladimir putin will transfer of

ukrainian children to russia immediately without question. in this case, it took the prosecutor three weeks to travel in order to investigate what was in the first week evident example of genocidal intent, mass killing, the destruction of conditions that would reduce the ability of palestinians to survive. in this situation, what we see is not merely a repetition of history but a continuation of colonial legacies and one that led to the failure of the league of nations, frankly, in the aftermath of italy's invasion of ethiopia 1935 were a fascist italy led by mussolini invaded ethiopia. in that moment, ethiopia was a member state of the league of nations. and rather than hold italy to account which was dropping chemicals, described ethiopia as

-- world powers failed to impose sufficient sanctions on italy in this moment. this demonstrated the limits of these international is to to shins -- institutions. we are in a similar moment right now. these institutions need to act and instead we're seeing a stalemate and we're seeing international leaders led by the united states as well as the u.k. and france who are basically providing a green light to israel to commit genocide, commit these atrocities. this is not out of nowhere. everything started before october 7. israel -- this is a moment where israel has not been held to account. it is a systematic failure. to hold israel to account for decades. international organizations have

said israel is practicing the crime against humanity of apartheid. there was a near consensus between 2020 and 2021, yet rather than impose sanctions in that moment, rather than mobilize international mechanisms and institutions to dismantle apartheid, we saw the united states celebrate and normalize israeli apartheid and then continue to normalize relations with other air regimes. it was this fundamental failure that has led us to this moment and an ongoing crisis of a lack of accountability, in a position of two types of law -- one for the global north, one for the global south. this is a hypocrisy on the part of western governments and demonstrates there is no such thing as western universalism but instead continues to be two sets of laws on two sets of people. the only thing that provides us hope is that a massive movement of individuals, peoples, communities have risen up

against the government to destroy -- to demonstrate hypocrisy. even in the united states, 66% of americans have demanded a cease-fire. 80% of registered democrats have demanded a cease-fire. only 19 at a 535 members of congress have endorsed it also consider the same congress censure the only palestinian-american representative in government at the very moment she represents the majority. this is not just a crisis of international legal institutions but also a crisis of democratic or so-called democratic institutions in the countries in which we live. amy: how does that tens of thousands of palestinians being forced south right now -- 20 seconds -- fit into your charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity? >> what we're seeing is an ongoing nakba. the palestinians with white hatred shifts in order not to be

killed. this is an ethnic cleansing of the north of gaza, continuation of the nakba to take palestinian land without palestinian people. it is a crime against humanity and fits enough archer framework of genocidal warfare. amy: palestinian human rights attorney noura erakat, associate prof