program. an island in crisis, that is how the mayor of lampedusa has

described the arrival of migrants on its shores. thousands of people have landed on the small italian island of lampedusa from north africa on flimsy boats in the past two days. conflict and instability across north africa, along with worsening economic and social conditions in tunisia, have contributed to the surge. since january this year, more than 118,000 sea migrants have arrived in italy. the near-record figure is a huge challenge for prime minister giorgia meloni, whose right-wing government has promised tighter controls. we will get to our guests in a moment. first, this report. reporter: overwhelmed and struggling to cope but the boats keep coming and with them another death, this time off italy's southern coast. 6000 people arrived from tunisia in the past two days. it is not just a growing problem

for the government, but for increasingly strained eu relations. >> i set it at the beginning, what is happening at lampedusa is the death of europe. italy is alone. reporter: lampedusa is often the first port of call for migrants crossing from north africa and the flashpoint of europe's migration crisis. this year's record arrivals total more of the island's population and are well above the official capacity of its only migrant reception center. most are transferred to sicily, but it does not ease the growing strain on the system nor stop the flow. >> we are more or less the numbers we had in 2016.

what seems to be a bit different is that now you have a different government. more right wing, more anti-migration. reporter: prime minister giorgia meloni one office a year ago on a promise to stop the arrivals. in june, she struck a deal with its government, but that has not stopped the numbers, nearly double the same period last year. >> this is a problem that is not only a problem of the countries that received this influx. it is a problem of the european union and there must be mechanisms of burden sharing. reporter: despite the calls for collective action, solidarity seems to be fraying, with france tightening border security in

germany canceling an eu resettling plan. many are now uncertain about their future. mohammed: let's go ahead and bring in our guests. in rome, andrea de petris, scientific director at the center for european policy. badder dabbagh, former syrian refugee who took a dangerous journey on a smuggler's boat 10 years ago that landed in italy. ferdinando nelli feroci, president of the institute of international affairs and former permanent representative of italy to the european union. a warm welcome to you all. thank you for joining us today on inside story. when talking about this issue, we must not forget the plight of so many people, whether they are migrants or refugees, who are so deborah spirit -- desperate that they take these dangerous

journeys in order to try to start a new life. so many people perish and they are trying to cross the sea. you yourself were able to reach italy in 2014. i want to ask you about that journey. >> thank you so much for having me. when you were talking about people going down while trying to cross the sea to get a better life, this is not something people do for fun. this is not something that people who are happy just decide i am going to do this. these are people who are have been very tough time.

desperate times call for desperate measures. it is not something anyone should go through willingly unless they are 100% forced to do so by the pressure of life or what kind of situation they are going through. my journey in 2014 was similar to many people who are going through it to sense and before and still. i am scared to say it will keep on happening. my journey was a little bit longer than the journey from tunisia to lampedusa because i left from egypt. my journey took eight days until we arrived in italy in 2014. mohammed: he is fearful this will continue to happen.

it is estimated over 100,000 migrants have arrived in italy since the start of the year. that is almost double the number of migrants that were recorded arrived in the same period in 2022. clearly, whatever approaches have been taken by the eu and italy have not worked. the eu keeps investing in security measures. is that the right approach? wouldn't they not do better by trying to come up with a different framework? >> definitely. this is a point that many have said in recent years. you are going to have migrants

trying to get there many ways. there is a time for a new approach and we need different measures. mohammed: why is this such a problem specifically for italy? is that simply because of the fact that lampedusa is the southernmost tip of europe, bet it is an entry point, or are there other underlying issues? >> what you said before about the figures is correct. to my knowledge, this year we had 130,000 people arriving from outside europe, which is as much

as double the year before. the figures are high, but they are manageable. the problem in italy, most of these arrivals are going to a very small island, which is between the borders of tunisia and the southern border of sicily, not too far from the coast of tunisia, very easy to reach. when you have a day like yesterday when you have something like 7000 people arriving on the same day, the facilities on the small islands are not capable of managing such a huge number of people arriving all together in one single day. this is why there is this wave of emotions and very difficult

discussions about these arrivals. these figures of people arriving to italy and through italy to the rest of europe would be manageable if they were managed in a more realistic manner among all the countries of the european union. it is not easy because it is a very sensitive subject. the only possibility is to defuse these people in all countries of europe. the figures are manageable. our job markets need migrants from outside europe. mohammed: you heard fernando say perhaps this could be more manageable if there was more solidarity from other european countries.

eu law has left a lot of southern member states like italy demanding more help. in the past, brussels had tried to force other countries in the eu to take in a certain number of migrants based on the size of their population. is that something that has ever worked? >> definitely, it worked. what is the alternative? we are talking about 7000 people arriving at lampedusa, a pretty small island. the law says refugees or migrants to stay in the first country they arrived to. this is the law that needs to be changed or modified or talked about somehow. the southern borders of italy or europe in general are facing a

higher percentage of migrations does not mean others should not stand in solidarity. even if it is not perfect, it is better than what we have right now. lampedusa is very small. the facility is not able to contain all of these people. we are talking about 7000. while if we were talking about -- what if we were talking about 10,000? it is not fair for the people crossing the sea or anyone involved in the situation. something definitely needs to be done. modifying this law or talking about it or discussing it, because certainly something must be done. mohammed: i saw you reacting to a lot of what he was saying.

>> i wanted to say that this is not a secret. they have been doing it for years. they could improve the quality of the facilities there since we know people are coming. i think now the facilities are overwhelmed. it is not something unexpected. no governments have been doing much about it. it is something you can do without moving so much money. the other part is eu solidarity, which is needed. the countries in that eu which are against this kind of

solidarity [indiscernible] mohammed: since you brought up meloni, she was elected last year pledging to fight irregular immigration, but so far she has failed to curb the number of migrants who have been arriving in italy. how is that impacting the way the public views her in italy and how is it impacting her base of support? >> she is not going to get much support i would imagine. it is one thing to be a politician, another thing is to be in charge and to try to find solutions.

she is trying to do both. she is trying to [indiscernible] but it is not enough. there should be much more in terms of european relationships. maybe with the strongest european countries and try to find a common solution. mohammed: ferdinando, eu ministers negotiated a migration deal earlier this year. is it likely to be signed off on by the eu in 20 because reports have suggested that might be the case. with that help the situation or will better still be -- will

there still be a murky situation? >> there is an agreement in principle for a resettlement plan which starts with the total figure up to 30,000 the first year and up to 60,000 migrants to be relocated or resettled in the third year of the plan. but there are two countries which are opposing this plan. the two countries are poland and hungary. there is a decision with the parliament which is ongoing. and there is strong opposition by these two countries. the regulation can be adapted by a majority vote.

even if this agreement would actually work, the numbers are very limited if you consider the whole number of people that arrived to europe from the rest of the world. these numbers are very limited, they are little more than symbolic. mohammed: please go ahead. >> we are dealing with big figures. what i still miss is a european certainty on middle and long term.

[indiscernible] meloni wants to stop people from leaving their countries. i do not know how. that is what she said today. i do not think the european union, and delete or any other countries -- italy or any other countries would be successful in this way. mohammed: when the prime minister expresses she would like to stop people from leaving countries, this brings up the agreement which i do not think has been implemented yet with tunisia. you have the italian prime minister going to tunisia earlier in the year. do believe the framework would help the situation? >> i do not think so.

the tunisian government is not able to control its own territory for many reasons so i do not see how it could manage. tunisia at the moment is not granted fundamental rights in its own territory. i do not see how italy or the european union could consider tunisia a partner. mohammed: germany has decided to step taken in migrants from italy until further notice. there had been an agreement in place between both countries. how much does that have the potential to complicate an

already difficult situation? >> i think it is very difficult, especially what happened last year with the war in ukraine. we are seeing a lot of refugees coming from ukraine to germany. i think the numbers are at one million at the moment, which is not easy. i understand the measures taken here, but hopefully this is not permanent and once any kind of discussions about redistribution of the refugees who are arriving in italy will be taken into consideration because we know this happened long before. i am hopeful this will be done again. the feeling of people here we see a lot of people are willing to help, they know this is a humanitarian situation where it is not optional, it is not moral

to leave people stuck in places where they are not able to get help grid and the people who were willing to help her not able to help anymore. mohammed: let me ask you this. i spent time in lampedusa reporting on migrants trying to cross the mediterranean sea. i've been to many places in europe and spoken to many refugees and migrants. they have told me they are so desperate that they are willing to try anything. they have nothing to lose as you said earlier in the program. they feel if they continue to stay in their own country, they will suffer and be poor or they could die as a result of violence and warfare. do you believe there are policymakers in europe who actually understand this? time and again, we see

agreements focusing on security and other framework deals. but they are not working. people still continue to try to cross the sea. do you believe there are people in government in any of these governments were taking that into account in realizing something else needs to be done? >> i think so. i think they have been trying or they wanted to try, but the pressure of the situation we have, meaning there are people who are here already, having them integrated. dealing with this first was a priority. in 2015 when the refugee crisis happened and germany received way too many refugees in a very short period of time, the party was to deal with this and then focus on why are these people

leaving their homes. which is the root cause that needs to be dealt with, the alternative business -- is people die at sea and even those who are arriving are not facing the best situations, especially when we are talking about a bigger number. 7000 at the moment, what if the numbers much bigger, what will happen then? mohammed: you heard us talking about the role tunisia currently is playing in all of this. italy and other european countries would like to affect this deal to try to stop migrants from crossing the sea.

there is a debate among you lawmakers right now, many of them upset about the prospects of a deal. there is a concern about human rights violations also in tunisia. i want to ask you how complicated this could be and is there a chance this could actually work? >> to my knowledge, the agreement is not operational yet. for the very simple reason that the european union which promise the disaffirmance -- disbursement to tunisia [indiscernible] the whole agreement is suspended to a certain extent. this is one element which needs to be taken into account.

unfortunately, i think that tunisia should try to stop people leaving, but tunisia does not have an interest in keeping these poor people that come from sub-saharan africa. they have an interest and send them. -- in sending them. it is a burden for them. until tunisia gets the money it

has been promised to receive, i do not think the agreement could be considered operational. mohammed: italy says it is lacking support from europe. the european union says it is ready to help. what do you think could be done immediately? are there concrete steps that could be taken that would make the situation improved dramatically? >> at the moment, we have a problem talking about how this problem occurred. we have to focus on the humanitarian situation at lampedusa or the southern borders of europe in general. get those people the help they need, whether it be redistributing them a fairly among countries that will stand in solidarity with italy or at least something help to those

people. the facilities at those places are not enough to contain those amounts of people. mohammed: we have run out of time. thank you so much to all of our guests. and thank you too for watching. you can see the program any time for visiting our website at aljazeera.com. you can also join the conversation on x. goodbye for now.

-people are already in the cemetery, and then the shooting starts. the vast majority of the people that got killed ran this way. -yes. -directly into the bullets. the vast majority of the people that survived... -is that who... -...ran that way. -...ran that way. [ gunshots, people shouting indistinctly ] -and you were one of them that managed to escape through the cemetery? -at the back side, yeah. -is it still crystal in your head? -yes, very. very much, very much.