05/10/23 05/10/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! former president donald trump has been ordered to pay $5 million to e. jean carroll after a jury found him liable for sexually abusing and defaming her. we will speak to jessica leeds, who testified during the trial about how trump sexually assaulted her during a flight in the 1970's. >> he was trying to kiss me.

we were kind of wrestling. i did not say anything. he did not say anything. it was this kind of kabuki theater in silence. amy: then as title 42, the trump-era policy blocking asylum seekers ends thursday, president biden plans stronger enforcement measures on the border. pres. biden: i spent close to an hour with the mexican president today. we are doing all we can stop it is going to be chaotic for a while. amy: we will speak to the salvadoran poet and writer javier zamora, author of the bestselling memoir "solito." as a nine-year-old boy, he traveled alone 4000 miles to reach the united states. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. a new york jury unanimously found former president donald trump liable for the sexual abuse and defamation of writer e. jean carroll, awarding her $5 million in damages. the jury, however, rejected a rape charge. during the trial, carroll recounted her sexual assault by trump in the dressing room of bergdorf goodman in the 1990's. since it was a civil trial, trump was not convicted of a crime and does not face prison time. trump's lawyer said he would appeal, while the ex-president called the verdict a disgrace and said, "i have absolutely no idea who this woman is." in a statement, e. jean carroll said -- "today, the world finally knows the truth. this victory is not just for me but for every woman who has suffered because she was not believed." we'll have more on this after

headlines and speak with one of the witnesses in the trial, jessica leeds, about her experience of donald trump sitting down on a plane and sexually assaulting her. cbs news is reporting the biden administration is expected to publish today new procedures for quickly deporting migrants at the u.s.-mexico border ahead of the expiration of the trump-era title 42 on president biden said thursday. sunday he expects the situation at the border to become chaotic. the new rule would require the majority of asylum seekers to request refugee status in another country, like mexico, before reaching the u.s. deported migrants will be barred from re-entering the u.s. for five years. earlier this week, 233 groups, including the aclu, amnesty usa, detention watch network, and raices, sent an open letter to president biden demanding he follow through on his commitment

to never detain migrant families end for-profit immigration , jails, and to allow people to live with dignity in their families and communities while their cases are being resolved in court instead of being locked up and surveilled. the groups write -- "detention places people in conditions known to cause mental and physical harm and endanger their lives. detention is not a deterrent to migrants who have no choice but to flee dangerous or violent conditions in search of a better life." meanwhile, immigrant justice groups in texas held protests at -- in austin tuesday to demand lawmakers reject hb20 and hb7, which would deputize vigilantes to carry out immigration enforcement in texas and create a parallel court system to try migrants and smugglers picked up by state-run patrols. president biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy remained at a stalemate over debt ceiling negotiations after meeting tuesday for the first time in

three months. they agreed to meet again as he was inches closer to a possible default as early as june 1. mccarthy has demanded spending cuts before agreeing to raise the debt limit, which biden has refused to consider is democrats slime republicans of economic hostagetaking. biden spoke after tuesday's meeting. pres. biden: everyone understood the risk of default. our economy would fall into a significant recession and it would devastate retirement accounts, increased borrowing costs. according to moody's, nearly 8 million americans would lose their jobs and our international reputation would be damaged to the extreme. amy: calls are mounting for president by to invoke the 14th amendment which would allow him to continue issuing debt by passing congress. biden has said he is not taken the option of the table. in the occupied west bank, israeli soldiers shot dead two palestinians during a raid in

the town of qabatiya wednesday. israel airstrikes continued for a day with at least one killed after air rates killed at least 15 palestinians and wounded 22 others according to officials. this is a shop owner in gaza. >> it is a hard situation to be honest. we face fear. we don't know what will happen the situion is -- everyone does not know what will happen. amy: in ukraine, french journalist arman soldin was killed in a rocket attack tuesday in chasiv yar near the war-torn eastern city of bakhmut. the 32-year-old worked for the afp news agency. the committee to protect journalists says he is the 15th journalist to be killed since russia's invasion of ukraine last year. in more news about the war, the head of the russian mercenary wagner group said president putin's troops have started to

abandon their positions in bakhmut. this comes as britain is poised to designate wagner as a terrorist group. france's national assembly approved a similar measure tuesday and urged the european union to follow suit. in pakistan, nearly 1000 people have been arrested as protests broke out following the arrest of the former prime minister imran khan tuesday. his supporters gathered today as khan made another appearance at an islamabad court, where he was indicted for selling state gifts during his premiership between 2018-2022. a court yesterday ruled his arrest on corruption charges was lawful as his legal team continue to fight the charges. former u.k. labour party leader jeremy corbyn called khan's arrest a dark day for democracy. authorities have shut down social media sites, while a judge is set to rule on a request for permission to detain khan for at least 14 days. this is one of khan's supporters. >> what they have done, is this not terrorism? imran khan has gone before

court. where is the supreme court? where is the high court where are the judges? amy: in turkey, president recep tayyip erdogan and his main rival kemal kilicdaroglu have been holding massive rallies ahead of crucial elections this sunday that could see the end of erdogan's rule after more than two decades in power. president erdogan announced tuesday his government is raising its workers' salaries by 45% in a bid to counter voter concerns over turkey's ailing economy amid soaring inflation. erdogan is also facing continued backlash over his response to the catastrophic february earthquake and damning reports of lax building regulations and neglecting warnings about the safety of structures. >> let's talk the truth here now. my whole family is gone. they are deceased. why wouldn't i be angry at the government? amy: kemal kilicdaroglu, who is

backed by a multi-party alliance, has vowed to pursue closer ties with nato and the european union, reinforce democratic institutions like independent courts and a free press. he also said he would reverse erdogan's dissolution of the position of prime minister in the 2017 constitutional referendum. >> we are not going to leave the fate in the hands of one person. no one would accept the words of just one person. amy: conservative president erdogan has also appealed to his religious base, accusing his opponent of being pro-lgbt at an istanbul rally sunday. back in the united states, embattled republican congressmember george santos is expected to appear in a new york court today after federal prosecutors filed criminal charges against him. details of the charges are not yet known but the new york congressman has been under investigation for his many lies around his campaign financing, biography, education, and work history. santos has defied numerous calls to resign. separately, a hearing in brazil is scheduled for thursday over charges santos committed check fraud.

in california, a state reparations task force approved recommendations on compensating and apologizing to black residents for generations of discrimination and violence from slavery to the present day. congressmember and u.s. senate candidate barbara lee, who is helping lead a congressional push for reparations, spoke at the meeting saturday in oakland, which she represents in the u.s. house. >> reparations are not a luxury, but a human right long overdue for millions of americans. millions of americans. a promise of 40 acres made to enslave people over 150 years ago has yet to be filled. and it is critical the promise be made -- that was made our ancestors many years ago is kept and the process up truth telling and racial healing has got to be carried out also. the atrocities committed against black americans are undeniable

and reparations are tangible route to acknowledging and making amends. amy: if the measure is approved by california's legislature and governor gavin newsom, it will provide monetary compensation to black residents for discriminatory policies including mass incarceration, policing, housing discrimination, health care inequalities, and environmental racism. in labor news, service employees international union workers at the union's headquarters in washington, d.c., have gone on strike as they continue contract negotiations for better wages and protections. many walked off the job tuesday as employees accused seiu president mary kay henry and the secretary-treasurer of supporting union busting tactics and refusing to negotiate in good faith. paramount global is laying off 25% of its staff and shutting down mtv news. head of paramount media networks chris mccarthy made the announcement to employees in an emailed memo. paramount is also the parent company of cbs, nickelodeon, comedy central, and showtime. the latest media layoffs come

after massive job cuts at vice, buzzfeed is closing, and other companies. and david miranda, brazilian journalist and the first lgbtq member of the rio de janeiro city council, has died at the age of 37. the news was announced by his husband, journalist glenn greenwald, on tuesday. miranda had spent nine months in intensive care after being hospitalized last august for a severe gastrointestinal infection. tributes to miranda poured in following the news. the brazilian president luiz inácio lula da silva noted his extraordinary trajectory. miranda, born in a favela and orphaned at the age of five, continued to fight for brazil's poor and the lgbtq community, which came under renewed attack during the presidency of jair bolsonaro. nsa whistleblower ed snowden also payed tribute to miranda,

celebrating his courage and righteousness in helping bring his leaked documents to light in 2013. miranda was notably detained for nine hours at london's heathrow airport but refused to cooperate with authorities. snowden wrote, "it was that courage that set him free." david miranda is survived by his husband and their two children. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, donald trump has been found guilty of sexually abusing and defaming e. jean carroll. the jury has awarded her $5 million. we will speak to a journalist as well as jessica leeds, one of the people who testified in carroll's trial about her own sexual assault by donald trump. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "hold the line" sings tom morello in solidarity with to

oakland teachers who are on strike. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. former president donald trump has been ordered to pay $5 million to the writer e. jean carroll after a jury found him liable for sexually abusing and defaming her. the jury in the civil trial reached its verdict after just three hours of deliberations. the jury, however, did not find that trump raped carroll. in a statement, carroll said -- "i filed this lawsuit against donald trump to clear my name and to get my life back. today the world finally knows the truth. this victory is not just for me but for every woman who has suffered because she was not believed." during the trial, e. jean carroll recounted how donald trump sexily assaulted her in the 1990's inside the dressing room of the bergdorf goodman, a a block from trump tower. during the trial, trump's

defense team did not call any witnesses and trump rejected his chance to testify during the trial. on tuesday, trump, who is running for president again, posted a number of messages and videosn his soal media platform blasting the verdict. es. trum wwill be pealing is decisn. it is a sgrace. i don't evennow who ts woman is. i have n idewho she i where she came fm. this is another scam. it is a political witchhunt. amy: in a video deposition recently made public, donald trump claimed that e. jean carroll was "not my type." but during questioning in the taped deposition, trump mistook e. jean carroll for his ex-wife marla maples. pres. trump: that is marla. that is my wife. >> which one are you pointing to? pres. trump: here. >> you just pointed to e. jean carroll.

the woman on the right is your then wife marla? pres. trump: this is a picture. i assume -- it is very blurry. amy: in a moment we will be joined by jessica leeds who testified during the trial about how trump sexually assaulted her during a flight in the 1970's. but we begin with moira donegan, an opinion columnist covering gender and politics for the guardian. also a writer-in-residence at the clayman institute for gender research at stanford university. thank you so much for joining us. can you first respond to the verdict, to a unanimous jury finding donald trump libel for sexily assaulting and defaming e. jean carroll? >> thank you for having me, amy. something to remember about this verdict, it was unusually fast that suggested this was not very close.

even in a civil trial like this, the jury will be out in deliberations for much longer. they came back yesterday in just under three hours, which suggests there wasn't a lot of doubt in the jurors' minds about the truth here. i think this is a significant moment for american women, specifically for the #metoo movement. donald trump was sort of the figure of abortionists, -- boorishness, shamelessness inspired this rage as this ongoing and pervasive use -- abuse of women, mostly by men. in his lack of accountability for many years had been a motivator and insult. it was insulting i think to the citizenship of american women to have somebody who had been so contemptuous of their dignity in a position of great power. that a court of law has held him

accountable, held him liable, i think it is a significant moment. amy: can you talk about the law that enabled e. jean carroll decades later to bring this lawsuit against donald trump here in new york city? >> yeah, so the law under which this lawsuit was filed something called the new york adult survivors act, which was a long time coming. it is a law that extended the statute of limitations. during which survivors of sexual abuse who have sort of gone past the statute of limitations, whose assault occurred to long ago and file civil suits. they have this opportunity over a course of a year to look back, to bring back their claims and to file civil suits that would have otherwise been prohibited

by the statute of limitations. e. jean carroll lobbied for this law and her attorneys filed a lawsuit within hours of it having gone into effect. amy: people can still file suit? that window is still open until, what, november? >> there are six more months. if there any survivors in new york who have assaults, claims that have happened beyond the statute of limitations, they still have that opportunity to file civil plans. amy: the jury was shown the infamous "access hollywood" video in which trump brags about grabbing women's genitals without asking permission. amy: "

trump said in the videotape. during the videotape deposition, seen by the jury, trump defended his comments in the "access hollywood" tape. >> very famous in this video, "i just are kissing them. like a magnet. i don't even wait. when you are a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. grab them by the [beep]" pres. trump: historically, that is true with stars. you look over the last million years, largely true. not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? pres. trump: i think you can say that, yeah. amy: that was donald trump in the videotaped deposition that was shown in court and yet he

refused to be there live to testify, which is extremely significant. if you can talk about this? he was golfing in ireland at his golf course and said that he would be challenging e. jean carroll, whoever she is, and the judge in court. and when the judge took him up on the offer, said this was, what, last thursday, that he had until sunday -- even though his lawyer had rested the case -- to say whether he would come into court, he did not. the significance of this? so the only thing the jury saw were these damning clips from his deposition. >> it is a really remarkable exchange, that phrase fortunately or unfortunately, i think bolstered carroll's claim

that the tape announced are not as donald trump had characterized it "locker room talk" but a confession. he is reaffirming not only his attitudes but a true lack of remorse and lack of moral objection to sexual assault. donald trump performed so badly in that deposition and he incriminated himself further in this remarkable way as you noted -- and i think it might not have been entirely unwise for him from a legal standpoint to avoid coming to the trial. i think you would probably have not performed well on cross. he does not have a lot of self-control. he is very indignant. he is very impulsive. i don't think he would have helped his own case. that said, i think it did make an impression on the jury how much disregard for the proceedings, disinterest in mounting a real defense, sort of

seemingly casual irreverence for the seriousness of what was being alleged in the civil court. i don't think that helped him, either. i think all the jurors really heard was a time of corroboration from e. jean carroll, a ton of confessions and reaffirmation's of his character and habits from the long record of donald trump. that "access hollywood" tape was played many times in the car but they did not hear much of a defense from trump's side and i think that made a big impression. amy: i want to bring in jessica leeds testified during the trial. she told jurors about how trump groped her during a flight on a plane in the 1970's. in 2018, she came to our democracy now! studio and described what happened when she sat next to trump in first class

on the flight. >> dinner was served. it was after dinner when truly all of the sudden, without any kind of social conversation, he started groping me. amy: what did he do? >>'s hands -- he was trying to kiss me. his hands were on my breast. we were kind of wrestling. i did not say anything. he did not say anything. it was this kind of kabuki theater in the silence. i remember thinking, why doesn't the guy across the aisle say something? why doesn't the stewardess comeback? it seemed to go on forever but of course it didn't. amy: he put his hand up your skirt? >> he started putting his hand up my skirt. that is when i, with effort,

managed to wiggle my way out, grabbed my purse, went to the back of the plane. i waited until the plane was completely clear because i did not want to run into him. amy: that was jessica leeds speaking on democracy now! in 2018. she testified in the defamation and battery trial. she is joining us now from asheville, north carolina. jessica leeds, thank you so much for rejoining us on democracy now! can i first get your response to president trump being found guilty of sexual assault against e. jean carroll? >> i am really pleased. i am pleased for e. jean. i'm sorry the jury could not come up with a rape charge, but that is kind of understandable. baby steps here. baby steps. amy: i was curious, she was able

to file this suit because of this law that had opened up in new york that still has six months where people can sue someone who assaulted them years ago. are you weighing suing donald trump as well? >> no, i have kids and grandkids and great grandkids. i wouldn't want to put them through that. amy: but what is quite a testimonial to e. jean carroll, jessica, what you make of what e. jean carroll did? going through this again decades later? and talk about what made you decide to testify. there are dozens of women who have accused donald trump of sexual assault. you are one of two women who testify in e. jean carroll's

trial. >> well, i think they wanted to use people who would show a pattern of behavior, especially over the years -- this is what i got from talking to the lawyers. e. jean is a very strong, creative woman. when she finally recognized the damage that had been done to her , it had taken a while. for her to step up and do this takes a great deal of courage, but i think she got some good support. i think she had damn good lawyers and i think it paid off. i think i mentioned one time in a interview that i thought all of these women had basically the same story, so for him to totally reject us is just sort of ridiculous. amy: you know, it is interesting

what donald trump said. he continually said now on social media in this video he released, he said he does not know this woman. interestingly, when e. jean carroll's lawyer for the deposition showed him a picture and he kept saying of a cushy is not my type" showed him a picture and said, can you identify to this is? he identified the woman the woman -- the lawyer the woman was 22 as his second wife marla maples but in fact it was e. jean carroll. but when he said i did not know her, i don't know her, in fact so many of these women, including you, jessica leeds, he did not know when he attacked you. is that correct?

>> that is correct. not only that, at this point in his life, he has a selective memory. most of these situations, most of this activity -- it is like second nature to him. it does not mean anything. it does not register at all, which is horrifying because the psychological damage it does on people who are sexually abused is tremendous. but for him, ah, he likes women -- he thinks he likes women. he likes dominating women. the real gist of it right now is he can't see past the aging process, so he looks at e. jean and she is late 70's and he can't see what she looked like or see the beauty in her face

right now. it is stupid, but that is part of our society's problems, too. amy: and continually saying, she is not my type. she is not my type to sexually abuse? as we all know, rape and sexual abuse has everything to do with power and not to do with attraction. jessica leeds, when we interviewed you, i i've always remembered you talking about afterwards. you are not even sitting in first class. the flight attendant came to you sitting in the back and said, you can sit up here, and that is how you ended up sitting next to this man donald trump. >> yes, that is correct. amy: you never wore a skirt again on a flight? >> that's right. that's right. i have to say, a week ago, there was a report of a man putting his hand up the stewardess's

skirt in this day and age? this continues. amy: jessica leeds, do you hope that this will inspire other people to come forward, not only accusing donald trump, but especially, for example, the slow in new york -- though it doesn't have to be just this law, but the adult survivors act that goes through the one you're look back a sexual assault survivor can file a case, this one time period of time -- do you hope people who have been victims of sexual assault and rape will come forward now? >> the wheels of the justice system moved so slowly. that is a tough call. i really don't know how useful

that is to encourage people who have been sexually abused to take that route. i would just wish that in our society we could address this issue, talk about it, do some research, and help the survivors. might even look upon this as a form of -- we send men off to war and they come back with ptsd. how about women who have suffered sexual abuse getting some counseling and help and whatnot for that? that is what i think. amy: jessica, i want to play for you trump's attorney standing on the steps of the courthouse yesterday after the verdict came down. >> we are in one since gratified. i know some people in this camper very happy.

[indiscernible] amy: he wasn't fully committal on this saying, well, at least donald trump was not found guilty of rape. there were three choices and battery. one was right, one was sexual assault, and the third was unwanted sexual touching. your response to that point? though interestingly, donald trump has not made it very much, clearly, he understands the significance of this decision by a civil court coming down -- unanimous, six men, three women -- finding him guilty of sexual assault as he runs for president again. but your response to this? >> the lawyer who is very aggressive is doing his best to represent trump.

i hope he gets paid. and how much this is going to affect trump's core who are, unfortunately ,cult-like in their devotion, i don't know how much this will help. if it helps e. jean and brings the topic up for discussion, ok, i'm satisfied. amy: final question, the issue of this being a civil trial -- in fact, the difference between being found guilty and being found liable? >> uh, yeah, that is what i mean about going to the justice system. there are people who are going to equate the fact that he was not convicted and they got confused over charges and who

was who and who is defending and who is prosecuting. it got pretty confusing. we need to go back to civics class. but i think this was a good outcome, i am very thin. amy: you came out before president trump won election in 2016, as did well over a dozen women, was it, more than 20 women? he was elected president. now he has been found liable for sexually assaulting a woman in a department store dressing room. he is running for president again. your thoughts? >> again, he has a core of people who will vote for him. the truest thing he ever said was he could stand on a corner of fifth avenue and shoot

someone and would not lose any votes. that is so true. i just hope the rest of the world can see through and know we need somebody much, much better than this to manage the country. amy: jessica leeds, thank you for being with us. she is one of two witnesses who testified in e. jean carroll's case about their own experience of donald trump sexually assaulting them. she told jurors about how she sat down on a plane next to him in flight in the 1970's and how he groped her. moira donegan, i want to thank you. opinion columnist for the guardian. writer-in-residence at the clayman institute for gender research at stanford university. coming up, we speak to the salvadoran poet and writer javier zamora, author of the

best-selling memoir"solito: about his 4000 mile journey without his family from salvador to guatemala, mexico to the sonoran desert of arizona as a nine-year-old. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. on thursday at midnight, the united states will end the pandemic policy known as title 42 that has been used by the trump and biden administrations to block nearly 3 million asylum seekers at the u.s.-mexico border. some reports indicate there are as many as 150,000 migrants on the mexican side of the border who hope to apply for relief as soon as possible after the ban -- policy is lifted. this is a colombian migrant who joined others at the border fence in the mexican city of tijuana on tuesday.

>> i am in limbo. let's see what happens. i have to be able to pass through the united states. i have a son who is 18 years old there. i want to be with him. amy: this thursday, cities have carried out targeted organizations against hundreds of migrants slipping outside. president biden said he spoke by phone tuesday with mexican president andres manuel lopez obrador about border security issues. pres. biden: i spent close to an hour with the mexican president. we're doing all we can. the answer is, it remains to be seen. overwhelming cooperation from mexico. we also are in the process of setting up offices in colombia and other places where someone seeking asylum can go first.

it remains to be seen. it will be chaotic for a while. amy: cbs news reports the biden administration plans to launch new procedures for quickly deporting migrants at the u.s.-mexico border as soon as today. most of the asylum-seekers will be required to have refugee status in another country like mexico before reaching the u.s. deported migrants would be barred from entering the u.s. for five years. this week over 230 groups sent an open letter to president biden demanding he follow through on his commitment not to detain migrant families and to end for-profit immigration gels, writing "detention places people and conditions known to cause mental and physical harm and endanger their lives. detention is not a deterrent to migrants with no choice but to flee dangerous or violent conditions search of a better life." for more, we're joined by javier zamora, a salvadoran poet and writer. his "new york times" bestselling

memoir "solito" tells his story as a nine-year-old boy from salvador across guatemala, mexico, and eventually through the sonoran desert. he traveled unaccompanied by boat, bus, and foot. after a coyote abandoned his group in oaxaca, javier managed to make it to arizona with the help of other migrants. he's also the author of "unaccompanied," a collection of poems about his experience migrating to the united states as a child to reunite with his parents. javier zamora, welcome to democracy now! it is an honor to have you with us. >> thank you for having me. amy: before we talk about your own personal journey, which is so powerful and so important to understand, i'm wondering if you can were -- you can respond to what is happening come to president biden saying will be chaos of the water for a time,

to the pandemic era trump title 42 being lifted tomorrow night at midnight and what this means? >> i think it has always been chaotic. i don't think this will fix anything. things will get worse. things are already really bad. i just can't help to think of all of the people waiting, all of the people that will continue to wait, and all of the people who are still fleeing for their lives from all over latin america and the world. i hope this presidency and any future presidencies will treat immigrants like actual human beings. amy: so let's talk about that journey that so many have taken through so many countries.

you tell your own story. can you start by telling us about where you were born in el salvador and how you ended up coming to the united states? take us on that journey of your life. >> i was born in 1990 and a small fishing rural village of el salvador. i was born in war time. because of the salvadoran civil war this started in 1980 and a 1982, my dad fled in 1991. the war ended but did not end at the same time so my mom left my country in 1995 -- amy: i am only interrupting for a moment because before you take us on that journey, if you could expand more on when you said your father left. you're talking about a country where the u.s. backed the

military in salvador, well known for killing thousands of salvadoreans. can you give us a picture of what that u.s. policy meant? i think that is what is so absent from 70 discussions as people now try to make their way to the united states. >> at one point, only israel was getting more money than el salvador in the 1980's, we're talking millions of dollars a day. before the u.s. got involved in with the left one was equality, women's rights, education, and because of those asks, my dad was a leftist and he was the head of a co-op. one of his older brothers was disappeared on the military in 1980 and the violence was everywhere. because of those reasons and because of his ideological leanings, he had to flee in 1991. the same with my mom.

it is still difficult in 2023 being a woman. there's a lot of gender-based violence. because of -- you're talking a lot about sexual assault and that is everywhere. that was a huge reason why my mom also fled the country. amy: you were, what, one-year-old? >> i was one when my dad left and 5 -- amy: then being raised by your grandparents. talk about them deciding for you to take this journey and how you traveled. >> you know, the moment that my dad left, we would communicate by letters and phone calls. when my mom left, it was the same thing. what they both told me was that they were going to come back.

we have to remember in their brief period of time el salvador had peace, it lined up with my childhood. 1993-19 99 was perhaps the most peaceful moment in my country's timeline. in 1997, people are beginning to get shot in my home town. from 7, 8, and nine, i knew i wanted to be reunited with my parents. what kid doesn't want to wake up next to his parents? so i did not really understand how i was going to get here or how dangerous it was for me to travel the 4000 miles that i did. but what i did know is that i loved my parents and i was really, really, really wanting to be with them. amy: you went with your grandfather from salvador to guatemala? >> yes.

my grandpa accompanied me to a border town, which is still a very major crossing hub. from then on, he gave me over to the coyote, a smuggler, and i was not the only one with him. i was part of a larger group of seven other immigrants. he, the smuggler, was supposed to bring us to the united states in as little as one week from guatemala. of course, that does not happen. amy: and then your grandfather leaves. talk about how you traveled on from there and he massive danger -- i mean, you always did not make it to the united states. if you could then talk about going through to mexico and what happened? >> you know, i still don't know why my trip took the turns that

it did, but the plan was for me to cross a river from guatemala into mexico. that was the original plan. but i have done some research and already in 1999, the mexican government was militarizing the southern border and this is continuing to happen now. and so because of that militarization, the coyote. it would be easier for us to cross into mexico if we took a 22 hour boat ride from guatemala and landed in oaxaca. that is what we did. when we were supposed to get on the boat, there was news that three boats had capsized and immigrants died. this is still happening in the southern borders as people are trying to get here. so that was my fiasco and number 110 so close to death.

as a nine-year-old, i did not really understand it as such. what i understood is that i could not swim and i was scared of sharks. i was scared of the night. those were my fears and reality. -- in reality, i was very close to death. that was my first day in mexico. when we land, we faced a check point that still happens daily all over mexican states. against central americans and other immigrants. because of this checkpoints in 1999, we were dropped out -- dragged out by the mexican military. from then on, it was weeks until we, meaning the group of six other immigrants, until we figure it out how to make it to the sonoran desert and the u.s.-mexico border. amy: talk about crossing the border and what it meant to be in the sonoran desert. you have obviously a very

different experience right now in tucson, arizona, but what it meant to cross and then to be there, to survive in the hot, parched desert. >> similar to the boat. as a kid, my nine-year-old brain did not i think -- i think subconsciously i knew how close to danger i was. but in the front of my brain i was like, oh, look at this weird plant called a cactus and i am really thirsty and i don't have food but if i keep on walking, my parents are at the finish line. that is what i understood as a nine-year-old. all of the adults around me by that point we made it to the u.s.-mexico border, it was immigrants from cuba, immigrants even from brazil at that time

who we all joined together in a group i want to say 50 plus. each tribe -- it took me three tries to cross the sonoran desert -- we suffered a lot. the first time we were apprehended by border patrol and i spent two nights or one night because i blocked out my incarceration. i spent either 48 hours in detention -- we hear about the effects of detention. i spent less than three days in there and i still suffer ptsd from those few hours that i was there. that was only my first try crossing the desert. the second time, we ran out of water. we ironically were rescued by a border patrol agent after we needed to get water from a ranch. we were released back into

mexico. and finally, the third time we made it. amy: you are bringing me back to a conversation we had during the pandemic with a family of a man who had come up from mexico to see his son in utah and left messages and then died in the desert, the sonoran desert. so what you survived, javier, is truly astounding. when you think of how many thousands of people who have died in the sonoran desert alone , the artist we travel to the desert who put up crosses for as many people as he could, learned about their names, this all being done in the name of u.s. policies of deterrence. your response to that?

and for people to keep in their mind, you were nine years old. >> mi trips as a nine-year-old and in writing this book, which took me 20 years to even begin to process everything that i witnessed and every thing i survived, in the process of writing this book, i realize that there were certainly people that died in each of the crosses that i attempted to get to this country. it is because of them that in here. -- that i am here. i hope anyone listening and reading and even the president himself, hopefully, is realizes that we're are all just human beings trying to have a chance at a better life. thank you to all of the artists, thank you to all of the writers, anyone who believes that us

immigrants are more than our trauma and more than what we are asking for. we are just human beings, ok? amy: javier, you convey this so powerfully and poignantly about in your poetry and in this book "solito," but let's jump forward to how you do convey this, how you became a writer. first, tell us how you met your parents -- how you saw them in the united states. and then who influenced you, how you came to be a writer through all of this trauma. >> you know, i left el salvador on 6, 1999 and i finally met my parents on june 11, 1999. i opened a door in tucson, zona, which ironically is my home now and i see two shadows. i recognize my mom.

she would left me when i was fighters old. i see this man behind her. i knew how my father looked for what it looked like from pictures, but pictures and reality are two different things. he was a stranger. that is a metaphor for how i felt after not being around him for eight years. it took us a few i want to say months until i got country but with not only my dad, but with my mom being in this country. i have lived with the fact we were all documented from 1999 -- i am 21 years old. i don't have papers and i can't return to my homeland. i think that fact is a huge reason why i became a writer. it was in high school when google becomes google that i

google salvadoran writers and the first and that comes up is a leftist writer who wanted to create a better el salvador. i start reading his work and what really impacted me was he spoke like us and he wrote us, meaning the rural salvadoreans. not the elite salvadoreans who wanted to replicate spain, spanish. he wrote like the people. i hope that in both my poetry and my prose i am in tune with the salvadoran people. that is all i wanted when i was 13, 14, 15 years old and i was searching for salvadoran books. and i hope that my book now could speak to another

nine-year-old salvadoran, guatemalan, honduran kid who has immigrated or is thinking of emigrating to this country. amy: javier zamora, we thank you so much for spending this time with us, salvadoran poet and writer. author of the best-selling memoir "solito" and also "unaccompanied," a collection of poems about his experience migrating to the united states as a child to reunite with his parents. have a year has been a fellow at stanford and radcliffe fellow at harvard and holds fellowships from the national endowment for the arts and the poetry foundation as well stop we will interview him in spanish after the broadcast and we will post it on our spanish website. you can go to democracynow.org and click right through. that does it for our program.

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(sophie fouron) we're in the middle of the pacific between victoria and vancouver, and salt spring island is the biggest gulf island, but it has a community feel like nowhere else. maybe because half of its population is over 55 years old. there's a very relaxed vibe here. peaceful, respectful vibe. everybody can be who they want to be. nobody really cares about what you did before. music is huge in salt spring. it seems like everyone plays an instrument here. is