nastasya: china's president says his country and russia are driving geopolitical changes globally. xi jinping has been in moscow in a show of support for vladimir putin. but what do those changes mean for the broader world order, and how does the west view xi's visit? this is "inside story." ♪ hello there, and welcome to the program. i'm nastasya tay. now, president xi jinping has concluded his visit to moscow, cementing his partnership with vladimir putin.

the chinese leader's trip came to stay as after the international criminal court issued an arrest warrant for the russian president for war crimes in ukraine. the two heads of state issued a joint statement, confirming their alignment on a host of issues and condemning the west and nato. they also cautioned against any steps that could push the conflict in ukraine into an uncontrollable phase. hashem al-bara reports. ♪ reporter: they say it's an alliance without limits. china and russia are expanding trade and diplomatic cooperation. the two countries insist their relations are far from being a military and political alliance, but xi jinping and vladimir putin share a growing concern of what they perceive to be an american dominance across the globe. for the chinese leader, who secured an unprecedented third term earlier this month, this trip could be the moment to establish his country as an

international peacemaker. >> we shall always respect and abide by the u.n. charter. we will always promote peace and also promote negotiation and discussion. our stance is always based on fairness and justice. we will always be on the side of peace. we are always on the side of dialogue. we are always on the side of historic fairness and justice. reporter: but ending war in ukraine may not be an easy task. china is yet to elaborate on its 12 point peace plan. beijing has called on russia and ukraine to address their security concerns. without mentioning russian troops' withdrawal, a key demand for kiev. the u.s. has dismissed the peace plan as a stalling tactic. in the meantime, western nations are stepping up military assistance to ukraine. >> today we learned that the

minister of defense of the u.k. declared he would supply tanks to the ukraine and also uranium enriched weapons to ukraine. i think that the west will now fight russia to the last ukrainian. reporter: facing growing international isolation, vladimir putin is turning to president xi jinping, an alliance largely shaped following the russian invasion of ukraine last year. after the eu imposed a ban on russian energy imports, china stepped in, buying large quantities of cheap russian oil, providing cash-wrapped moscow with much needed revenue. -- cash-strapped moscow with much needed revenue. the u.s. considers china the biggest threat to its national security and fears beijing could be exploiting russia's in battle standing -- embattled standing to expand its geopolitical influence. ♪ nastasya: well, let's bring in

our guests now. in moscow, we have sergei markov. he's director of the institute of political studies in moscow. he was also a former public spokesman for president putin. in beijing is henry huiyao wang. he's founder and president of the center for china and globalization think tank. and in washington, d.c. is toby gati. she's a specialist in russia-u.s. relations. she's also a former special assistant to president bill clinton, and a former senior director for russia, ukraine, and eurasian states at the u.s. national security council. a warm welcome to you all. thank you so much for joining us today on "inside story." i believe this was, what, the 40th time that putin and xi have met? that's quite remarkable. i know they've previously celebrated birthdays together, made dumplings together, have pledged their friendship without limits. sergei, i know you have been very close with president putin in the past. how would you characterize the xi-putin relationship? >> vladimir putin and xi

have a good personal relationship, because they respect each other very much. putin respects xi, because he is managing a huge ship. a big civilization, chinese civilization towards the global leadership in the future. and we know that china is developing more quickly than other civilizations. xi respects putin very much, because putin's a real fighter. and because they have a moral personality. it is absolutely clear that with western leaders like biden, the british prime minister, macron,

they have quite immoral personalities, which align every time and which try to impose that own position to another country. but support the repressive regime in ukraine. also russia and china, they have to work together, because most of them are under the aggression of the united states and america, and a coalition which includes almost 50 countries in the world. nastasya: i'm sorry, i want to bring in henry here, because you say that this is also about countering some kind of aggression from the west. and i see more languages come out of this visit, very similar to what we saw in february last year, and that was, what, 20 days just before the russian invasion? now they've signed a joint statement titled deepening the comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination for the new era and stress settling the ukraine crisis through dialogue.

that's a lot to cover in less than three days. and i noticed that ukraine actually only gets a mention in .9 of nine. henry, for beijing, is this about ukraine or is this more about a push for this so-called new era? >> well, i think that actually president xi's visit is very timely, and of course, china just finished the two section -- we got new terms of the government and new state council. so traditionally, china and russia have drawn good relations. they have the longest orders in the world. both countries are in good terms. i think more significantly is the fact that this is a peace mission as the ministry spokesperson mentioned.

he has met ukraine foreign minister in munich, where i was, the immunity conference, attending that conference as well. so i think there's a lot of dialogue already. and also on top of that, china just published this 12 point peace position paper that outlines china's peace plan for ukraine-russian conflict. and the deal between iran and the saudis on peace as well. these pragmatic ties. i think this time china went in to just to understand both positions. to really talk to president putin and of course find out what's going on. and i think it's really good of course. nastasya: i want to look at the peace plan in more detail in just a moment. but i do want to bring in toby here, because from the language that we've heard in these joint statements, and these are really hefty things, a huge amount of language that both foreign

policy staffs have had to agree on in minute detail. it seems that the biggest thing that beijing and moscow have in common is the desire to counter u.s. dollar dominance. toby, how is all of this being viewed in washington? henry says this is a peace mission. >> well, it may be a peace mission, but for china, it's a peace mission for a piece of the russian economy, for a lot of russian energy, and for many things that are much more important to china than the fate of ukraine. and the alternative reality that we see in the kremlin in a meeting like this does not reflect the fact that russia is a declining power, in terms of china, and china's biggest fear is that russia will not be able to handle the war in ukraine and it will lead to instability. china's fear has always been instability. on the part of many different countries. and i really think you're seeing a change in many relationships. just remember what's happening in the room is important, image

is important for both public, certainly for putin's public, having been declared a war criminal last week and having closed having called memorial, which is a an organization dedicated to exposing soviet problems in the 1930s and 1940s, having closed it this week. this meeting is important to show that these two leaders can talk to each other. but make no mistake about it, china has a very clear agenda. china is a rising power, and russia is just barely holding on, and i think it's really important that russia's main leverage over china is the fear that russia will be unstable, and china does not want that, it doesn't want it because they have a long border and also because of u.s. concerns. nastasya: toby, i want to touch on something that you just spoke about there, this level of

instability, as you say, a hugely long border. let's throw this to sergei. and i want to take apart a little bit this chinese peace plan, this 12 point peace plan. it has been criticized in many places, including in washington, for not being a road map to peace, for not being concrete enough. how is it being viewed in moscow? >> in moscow, this chinese plan is being viewed very positively, because it's not so much a plan, but more principles for a peace resolution on the conflict. from our point of view, it's some kind of civil war between two wings of the russian people. from our position, ukrainians are the same as russians. part of the big russian people. and so, we're very interested about stopping this war.

we believe that this is not a war between russia and ukraine, but this war between russia and the united states of america, and it is united states of america aggression against russia using occupation of ukraine. from 2014 when the united states supported the democratically elected president of ukraine. we are very interested to stop this war, but at the same time, it is not so much a chinese plan, but more principles. the chinese principles didn't come here, because washington is very clearly against this negotiation with russia or ukraine. the united states wants only war and healing. healing and war. that's why we will have to come to a spring deal after the

intensive fighting. nastasya: i want to refer this back to toby here, because you say the americans have no interest in ending the war. toby, do you think that's the case? go for it. >> okay. i mean, it is good that the chinese came forward with principles, because the united nations also has principles. and if china really cared about principles, it wouldn't have abstained on the resolution in the security council on the war. those were the principles. that was the u.n. that's the forum. the chinese don't really want to do the hard work of making peace in ukraine. and it's really far from them. ukraine's far from them. they have many many interests in asia, and i can understand that. and so, for the russians to think that the chinese are going to play any large role, i mean, imagine the conversation where xi has to tell putin what zelenskyy has told him about

russia's policy. i don't see this happening. this is not a chinese role. i think the chinese have their own features. nastasya: to our guests from beijing, in terms of the role that china hopes to play here, henry, i'm curious about where china sees this conversation going and where this desire to become such a mediator is coming from. you mentioned the deal between iran and saudi arabia. they're obviously trying to become a bit of a broker on the global stage. but specifically, it seems, on issues where their own interests are at stake, is this about reputation building for xi or does it go beyond that? >> well, certainly, it raises chinese reputation of course. the chinese trying to promote the talks and peace all together.

behind that, behind ukraine you got nato, you got western countries, so china is actually busy talking not only to president putin, but also to western leaders. schulz came here and said no nuclear weapons should be used, but also the french president, macron is coming, the italian prime minister coming, the spanish prime minister coming, so a host of people that have a stake in the fight talking to the chinese. i think we should obviously talk to zelenskyy at some point of time. nastasya: i wonder, is there perhaps more space now for china to act as a mediator, given the timing? we've now seen this a west warrant -- arrest warrant issued for putin by the icc that could potentially limit his ability to travel or to dialogue with other

leaders. toby, do you think that that creates more space for beijing? >> well, i think beijing ought to stop looking at what's happening in nato. and look what happened yesterday. the japanese prime minister was in bucha, was in ukraine, so i think the world around china is changing in a way maybe that china is not too happy about. increased military spending in asia. so the consequence of this war for china are very great. and china -- you talk about the iran-saudi agreement. remember, there were talks for two years and then china came in at the last minute and brokered the agreement. these things take a long, long time. i don't think china is going to invest in peace in in ukraine. -- in peace in ukraine. but it is very interested in having russia remain a stable country. a weaker country than china for sure economically. and the agreements that are signed are very much in china's

interest. fuel and oil and gas to china and chinese business in russia. but just remember, the u.s. interest in talking to china is going to focus on one thing very clearly, do not send weapons to ukraine. nastasya: i want to get to the weapons in a minute. >> it is a very different ballgame. nastasya: one of the things you mentioned there is these very, very comprehensive agreements that we've seen. and it goes well beyond the kind of broader economics that we would necessarily expect. i noticed that it also now says that the main stator and broadcasters of the two countries are going to be sharing content. now, sergei, i know how powerful a cultural voice or influence is. what's that aimed at here? >> at sharing? excuse me, sharing what? nastasya: at sharing content, so that the two broadcasters from

the two different countries, the state broadcasters have agreed to share content. and let me throw this to sergei, i'm curious about what you think they're trying to aim at here, in terms of trying to create a broader cultural influence to counter the west perhaps. >> yeah, not so much against the west. first of all, russia and china have to stay together against the united states of america, because from both a russian and chinese point of view, we are interested in cooperating with europe. but europe under the u.s. domination -- i would say the united states prohibited 2-year-old to cooperate with both china and russia. so russia and china are interested in the liberation of europe against american

imperialists, hegemony, and etc., so both countries -- >> we might as well be in the 1950s. i mean, listen to this. listen to what we're hearing, the words, it's like a bad dream. it really is. and i don't think china wants to be part of this bad dream. china's relations with the west are just too, too broad, and economics matter too much. sergei, keep sending china all your oil and gas, they'll be very happy. they can resell it to europe as they've been doing and make money. this is a death spiral for russia. nastasya: i do want to make sure that henry is also part of this conversation. and given the chinese point of view here, because as you say, economics is critical, you mentioned earlier that there was a speculation about whether or not china might supply arms to russia in this conflict. that's obviously a very fine

line. i know china has said there are no forbidden areas of cooperation, but that was before the russian invasion. henry, this is a really, really i guess fine balancing act here. how's that going? >> well, this time, we haven't heard the no limit talking this time. but certainly, i mean, the economic and trade relation has always been improving. china wants to maintain good relations with those neighbors. china definitely wants to maintain good relation. but the same is true with india, with japan, with vietnam, with everyone. i think china and russia, even though they share a lot of the same, as i said, they've been both bashed in very hard by the u.s., particularly china, china is even put before russian, as the u.s. number one rivalry. so i think that that is the

case, that we want to maintain a global u.n. type of order that all the countries have to really have their own rights to develop. nastasya: so to be very clear here, henry, you don't see china at any point wanting to send weapons or arm russia in any way, because then it would potentially face the same sanctions that russia is facing. >> well, china said that many times, i mean, the china defense minister last year said the shangri-la dialogue, china does not provide any material -- any military support to russia and china only provided the humanitarian aid to ukraine. so i don't think china has violated that. china has actually been repeatedly saying they provide no military to the russians for fighting this war. so i think that has to be very clear. i wrote an op-ed in the new york times last year at the same time when the war broke out. we want to call a u.n. seven party talk, and that's p5 plus

ukraine and the eu. let's have a peace summit. china is the only country now that is really proposing peace talks. and we have to do this by peace talk, not by continuous fighting on it. nastasya: you speak there about a global order. and one of the things that i found very interesting coming out of this visit now xi in russia was that putin seems to have endorsed the chinese yen as the currency of choice over the u.s. -- over the u.s. dollar or the euro, and he's now i believe encouraging the developing world to also use it in its dealings with russia. sergei, from the russian perspective, what does this multi-polar economic order look like? >> russia believes that a multi-polar vote is exactly international democracy. and that united states and europe should respect the multi

polarity of the world. and also the different nations. where they have a right to choose a different political and cultural system and different religious systems. and that's another thing, politically, that pluralism. and of course the united states is resisting to this historical trend. that's why we believe that we are russia and china on the right side of the history or the history of progress and united states against progress. nastasya: so we are clearly seeing a broader alignment here. -- realignment here. so again, you're saying that this is about diversity, wanting a multi-polar world. for that reason, toby, i want to ask you, because i wonder if the view from washington is that this is now becoming two blocks, the western europe perhaps and the west broadly on on one side, russia and china on the other.

is that the view and where does that leave the developing world? >> i don't think that's the view. i think russia is developing a war economy, increasing its army, sending more troops to ukraine, controlling its society. china has no interest in a war economy. the economic model of russia has nothing to offer to chinese development. it's hard to have an international currency based on china's currency. china uses the dollar. china wants trade with europe. that's one of the reasons they have good relations with belarus, because that's the opening to europe. they're not giving up on europe because of ukraine. that is for sure. so i really don't see the world divided that way. i think the chinese leadership is very aware of china's rise. and when you have a rising power, you can afford to be a little more flexible. it's when you're on the

defensive and you feel the world is really against you, which is how russia feels, that you make mistakes, and i really worry about that, because china doesn't mind having a dependent russia or a weak russia, but it does not want a russia that is not stable, and that is why this meeting was so important, because it shows china and russia together as stable countries. this is for a domestic audience. a lot of this. nastasya: i'm interested in something that you just said there. this idea that russia is on the defensive and that china perhaps isn't. but we have been hearing some quite interesting language come out of china. president xi has been criticizing the u.s.'s, and i quote here, "all round containment and settlement and suppression of china." henry, that's some very deliberate cold war language there. >> it is the cold war deeds actually that the u.s. is practicing more.

we have a thousand chinese companies being sanctioned. we have a chips act, we have arcus. building these nuclear submarines. and then we have quad and we have nato. china is is really pursuing economic organization. i see a different model of pursuit. because the u.s. secures more militarization and economic alliances including with china africa, china, arab, china, latin american china, central asia. so i think, you know, in the end, probably economic organization we have to go back to the basics. the economic globalization will prevail because that's really the bread and butter of everybody. the u.s. and europe we will have

to really come to the basics and not really fight this geopolitical war. let's go back, let's stop the war, and let's really pursue peace. the economic globalization it's not perfect, but let's improve it, let's enhance it, and it's strengthening thepgdkiqñññtñf?o#