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kim: a warm welcome, i'm kim chakanetsa. i've ce to hollywood, to the women and film headquarters where i'm joined by keri putnam and stephanie allain, two women who are working to reshape the industry. they are both part of an initiative founded and led by women in film and the sundance institute, called reframe, whose aim is to advance gender equity. keri putnam is a film executive and producer and the founder of putnam pictures. she's served for 11 years as the ceo of the sundance institute, which runs the sundance film festival. prior to that, she worked as a senior executive at miramax and hbo. she's also the co-founder of reframe. keri, welcome. keri: thank you, it's great to be here. kim: stephanie allain is a film producer and writer and the newly elected co-president of the producers guild of america, the first woman of color to hold that position. stephanie served nine years as vice president of women in film. she runs her own company, homegrown pictures,

which focuses on creating content by and about women and people of color. keri and stephanie, welcome to you both. stephanie: yeah, happy to be here. keri: thank you. kim: now, keri, you were set on a career in theater, but there was a plot twist and hollywood came calling. tell us about what happened. keri: well, that was a very early plot twist in my career. i, um, i was coming out of college and i was gonna go work at a theater, um, and i had a friend who was working at hbo, which at that time was a very um, startup network. that's a long time ago. pretty startup network. and she said, "well, you're going to go work in the theater, but there's some guy coming who's going to be making plays for television on hbo, you could maybe be his assistant." and so i got that job as a secretary at the very bottom, starting out um, a long time ago. stephanie: they don't say secretary anymore. keri: they did back, they did back then, i had to take a typing test, which i sure did. and, um, you know, uh, then i was, i was very lucky to be hitting a company like that

at the time where my rate of growth and knowledge, um, really the company was growing at the same pace, so i was ae to move up there and just learn so much about making film and telling stories, still working with a lot of playwrights and still workinwith a lot of still being close to the writers and the story, which is what i loved. so that's how i got my start, and, um, and then from there, i stayed a really long time at hbo, moved to miramax um, and then got to sundance, so. kim: now, stephanie, you grew up near a cinema, and i understand that you'd spend a lot of time outside the cinema trying to get in, tell me about that. stephanie: well, i also love a story. i loved reading. just i was an avid reader. and the thing that really triggered my interest was two films, "the godfather" and "the exorcist." i'd read both books, and i was about 12 years old. i had to sneak into the theater. kim: i was about to ask, how did you see those? stephanie: i stood outside and asked an adult to buy me a ticket um, and i was just blown away by the connection

between what was in this book and what was on the screen. and i thought i didn't even, i didn't have the tools to understand that there were movies and directors and producers. but i love stories. i went to school for story for english, um, and then i got pregnant after right after college and i had this baby and i was like, "what am i going to do?" and somebody told me there was a job called reading, and i was like, reading is a job. kim: get paid to read? stephanie: sign me up. um, so that's what i did. and, and that just created an opening into the world of cinema for me and then women. it was amy pascal and dawn steel, and um, they recognized my affity for writing and for analyzing material, and they promoted me. and, and the first thing i did was, was find somebody to replace me ithe story department because i was the only person of color there.

kim: keri, stephanie says two women were instrumental in helping her. keri: yeah. kim: what about you? what helped you succeed in your environment? keri: hmm, i would say, you know, i didn't have the, the luck to have a woman boss early on. but the big boss of original programming at hbo in the 80s was a woman. and she was an incredible force and very rare in that time, and, and she really set um, a kind of a clarity of, of what hbo stood for, what kind of... stephanie: who was that? keri: bridget potter. stephanie: oh, okay. keri: um, and she's been, been a bit written out of the history, actually. but actually, what i found i don't know if you found this, but i found a lot of my strongest mentors and, and supporters in my career have been peers. stephanie: and i think that's true too. one of my peers, and i made more movies with him than anybody was john singleton and in my first movie, "boyz n the hood," i made with him um, and i, and he's the one who really set me on a path

of protecting the vision of an auteur which basically taught me how to produce. kim: what an incredible movie to start with, "boyz n the hood." keri: yes, it was amazing, yeah. stephanie: i was like, "this is easy." kim: i can do this. stephanie: i can do this all day long, you know, yeah. kim: so having worked for the big studios, columbia, hbo, miramax, you both went independent. um, why was that important for you to do a keri? keri: well, it's, i'm late coming to being independent, i think. stephanie, stephanie has been a producer for longer, but i felt it was my time to try something new. and i also had never um, bet on myself and done something entrepreneurial. and i felt i wanted to get closer to storytelling. i wanted to be setting my own terms in a way, and using the experiences i had, so i'm giving it a shot, i just started really. stephanie: oh, she's going to be amazing. kim: is it frightening stepping out on your own? keri: it is, it is, but again, you're, you're caught by the community at, that, that you've, you've come to know and, and people, you know,

you can reach out and call and get advice. and, and yes, it's frightening, but it's also it's a time in my life, i think, where, you know, it's okay to shake it up a little bit. stephanie: yeah. kim: stephanie, i know you went as far as selling your house to start your own company. stephanie: i did, crazily enough. kim: big move. keri: i didn't know that. stephanie: would not do that again. yeah, no, i started producing because i was if you're at the studio, it's, it is a slog. i was there for a decade, um, but i think it was 20 years ago, yes, 20 years ago this year that i formed homegrown pictures and just decided to bet on myself. you know, i just thought, i don't want to support somebody else's vision. it was basically that. after "boyz n the hood" many years later, i actually went to john with another script, "hustle and flow" and i said, "we should do this." this was at the advent of people were switching from film into digital. so the idea of making a movie yourself was really for real.

you could do that. and, um, i was thinking, yeah, i'll sell my house. i just woke up one day and i said, "i don't care. i don't care about the house." you know, i had teenage boys. i said, "you guys don't care, do you?" they're like, "no, ma, do it." keri: i remember being in the first screening of that movie at sundance, it was amazing. stephanie: wasn't that amazing, it was electrifying. it was electrifying for a couple of reasons. one, the movie is fantastic. but two, it took us four years from the time i sold my house to get that movie made. and everybody in town passed on it. everybody. and then we took it to sundance and that night after that amazing screening, everybody that passed wanted it. and it was really the time that cemented my understanding of how valuable trusting your gut is. kim: yeah. stephanie: that was electric, and we all did make money. keri: that's great producing right there. stephanie: we all did make money in the end. kim: fantastic. stephanie: and um, yeah, so, so that's what i've been doing really for the last 20 years, just, just riding the wave.

and i tell people it doesn't matter how successful you are, i'm telling you this now, it's a hustle, it's a hustle, and you have to be in that spirit of. keri: but you have to have a belief. stephanie: you have to believe. that's why i don't do anything unless i'm so passionate about it that i will wake up in the middle of the night, write something down every day, wake up like, "what can i do to push this forward?" ki let's talk about some of the obstacles. i mean, what in your experience, keri, are some of the obstacles women encounter in the industry? keri: yes, it's, it, i don't think, i think it sort of depends on the seat the women are occupying. so if you're talking about um, women directors, uh, the, the obstacles, it's interesting because some of the obstacles are not particular to this industry. it's, it's, it's this perception that leadership and the qualities that make a great director, which are decision-making and leadership and, you know, a lot of it is very gendered. it's often talked about in terms of war, they,

they're the general that's pushing the troops. these are extremely gendered terms. and they, they, they tend to um, reinforce the idea that leadership look, looks a certain way. and so whether that's around race or whether that's around gender, i think these things are very intersectional, um, women directors, i think, often have a difficult time um, assuming that mantle of leadership, being handed that mantle of leadership, for that reason. so that's one thing i think that's hard. i also think and this is a um, a particularly um, applicable fact across a lot of different categories of work, but um, there is a perception and has been a perception that stories out women or by and about women are somehow less universal and less worthy of spending money on because they're going to be less commercial than stories by and about other people. stephanie: even though 51% of the population. keri: absolutely, and, and so a story about two men

is a universal story of friendship. a story about two women is a niche story. and, and, and that's led to the problem of um financing, getting access to money, being able to build careers, because it isn't perceived that certain stories that that are by and about women are as valued. stephanie: and then, and then add to that stories about ack women. keri: well, yeah as i said, it's very intersectional, definitely. stephanie: yes, yes. keri: people who make the financial decisions are still a very homogenous group of people who look at the business side, there are exceptions, but they look at the business side as what are we going to make back? what are the international sales going to be? what is, what is the box office going to be? and they set their budgets around that. so the money follows stories that look like what succeeded before. so if things are coming from a different perspective. stephanie: there's, there's no comps. keri: there's no comp, there's no. stephanie: they can't look it up and say this did that. keri: so, so on a, we used to call it the fiscal cliff,

women cod get low-budget movies made, people of color could get low-budget movies made. but as the budgets got higher and more financial eyes were on what that marketability was, suddenly those creators fell out of the mix and it ended up being a more homogenous set of people. stephanie: what would you add to that, stephanie? stephanie: so, i mean, i've been in this business, what, 35 years at least, um, there's, they're big stories to tell, they're really big stories to tell. now, i will say that in television, it feels like there are more opportunities for women to tell our story. keri: it's a much more even playing field. stephanie: egalitarian field, it really is. keri: and when you... stephanie: why do you think that is, because, because... keri: well, yeah, i mean, why do you think that is? stephanie: well, i would guess that um, part of it is when something's on television or streamed, it already has an international audience, right?

but the thing about the streamers who are, you know, really impinging on that theatrical is that i made a movie with alfre woodard on netflix called "juanita," my mom's favorite movie i've ever made, um, and she was a huge hit in brazil. like, she has a, she can't go to places in brazil without being mobbed because of that movie, because you could just turn it on and get that. keri: that's a great, that's a great point of view. stephanie: isn't that interesting? keri: yeah, for sure, i think that's the, that's the bright side of it. i think the idea that a global conversation is happening and, and, and proves some of those old biefs um, wrong i think is, is great. um, i also think there's another factor, which is in the last, in this decade where the streamers have, have, have come into the business, there's been more television made than ever before in history, like in these 10 years, more than all the years before. so there's actually just jobs, it's a, it's a place of abundance. stephanie: yes.

they need bodies, they needed bodies. keri: and i think a mind set and, and this isn't to say there wasn't also goodwill around, you know, what stories to be told are opportunities like the one stephanie described, but i think a mind set of abundance immediately provides more opportunity for people um, than, than one of constriction. and, and unfortunately, what we're seeing in the film side of the business. stephanie: is scarcity. keri: is scarcity, because the studios that used to make 20 to 25 movies a year are now making, on average, eight to nine movies a year. so you're seeing, now the streamers are making films, and, you know, there's other places, but i think, i think that means everyone is a bigger bet. everyone is more expensive. everyone is a franchise now. there's still, there's still been progress. i want to, i want to also say, even in the last few years, it was 4% of film directors were women and i think a less than 1% of women of color in the top 100 films for years and years and

years in 2017, 2016/17, which coincided with the movements, the social movements around the world that also came to hollywood and include the organization that that we're part of, reframe, these, these movements led to an opening of things. and we actually saw 150% growth in women directing those top box office movies and a small growth in women of color as well, um, not proportional, unfortunately, but still growth. so now the numbers in 2019, the numbers went from 4% to 12%. since 2019, it's flat lined. there's been no progress for the last four years. yeah, and so when you think about, when you think about constraint, fear, you know, the way the global market is... stephanie: scarcity, yeah. keri: i, i worry that there needs to be a,

there needs to be a conversation about how do you, how do you take a time where, you know, maybe the market conditions are more challenging and not forget about all the commitments to equity and all the commitments to a wide array of stories that we all believe in. stephanie: which, which is why reframe is so valuable to our business. keri: the idea of reframe originally was, was research-based, seeing the research in the cold light of day and really saying nobody can deny that this is an equity problem. nobody can, nobody could say this is an accident. we really felt instinctively, just by presenting that research to a wide array of people in studio jobs who are producers, who are agents at senior levels, they would, they would be... stephanie: shocked. keri: shocked. because i think most people don't consider themselves biased. and yet the cumulative effect of their decisions were, was bias. um, and indeed, that proved to be true. you know, when we first started, the biggest obstacle to making change was a perception

that there wasn't a problem. kim: ah, yes. stephanie: america is a patriarchal, racist society. i mean, it is that's, that's the world that we live in. and just to y it out loud, "oh, my god, don't say it." but we have to say it because we have to know it. we have to look at it to make the change, you know, and, um, and even all of us not, not, not just the white folks, but all of us operate under these assumptions and biases. so really exploring that on a human level really, i think, changed the way that people, that people think. keri: i agree. stephanie: and out of that came the toolkit. keri: yeah, and so the culture change toolkit is something we built for them to have to have actual tangible tools... stephanie: like. keri: to be able to make change along the way. stephanie: when you submit a script, take the name off, just read the script for the script. don't read betty's script or jon's script. just read the script and see what you think. and what we discovered was, well, scripts written by women, especially like action or perceived, you know, um...

keri: genre. stephanie: genre things were all of a sudden rising up because there wasn't this preconception that if a woman wrote it, it wasn't as good as a man. keri: but it was also about involving, involving the audience, so we created something called the reframe stamp that allo films that are um, gender-balanced in the way they're made and in what's on the screen and this doesn't have to necessarily even be a woman director, it could be a woman in other roles, um, and, and we started awarding those stamps and, and, and really shining a light on things that were made that way. and then it sort of became, "oh, i want the stamp" and audiences are looking for the stamp. stephanie: and when we started, no one wanted the stamp, we were like trudging into the studio head saying, "we've got this stamp" and they're like, "we want no part of it. we're not going to be labeled." and now there's like, "can i get the stamp?" look. and to get the stamp, you have to... keri: hire fairly, yeah. stephanie: you have to hire fairly. and, you know, so it's exciting that, you know,

there are ways to move the needle. kim: keri, what is lost when women are left out of the decision-making process? keri: hmm, i think, um, i think if decision-making, it's a hard question because there's a lot of ways to approach that. i think, i think when any decision-making process doesn't get made by um, a group of people, that reflects the full world we live in, um, there will be unconscious bias. there will be um, a, a, a voice missing to be able to say, "i'm interested in that." "i care about that." "did you think about this?" and i think i would say the same if there were no men in the decision-making process, this isn't about an instead, it's about, it's about an expansion. and it's about having, having rooms of decision-makers that reflect the world.

and i think what's lost without that is um, the ability to expand the palette. stephanie: yeah. kim: stephanie, what would you add to that? stephanie: obviously, i totally agree. keri: thank you. stephanie: yeah, it's um, you, when you think about a movie like "everything, everywhere, all at once," which was made by two men. keri: yeah, yeah. stephanie: but with michelle yeoh and all these other, steph, all these other amazing. keri: jamie lee curtis. stephanie: jamie lee curtis. yes, i mean, it's really female-based. the movie, you know. keri: yeah, i mean the daughter, yeah, yeah, the whole, yeah. stephanie: it's so good. and, um, when just the world would be a sadder place, you know, we bring the, the, the collective um, inclusion of all these different voices is a celebration. you know, it's a celebration of humanity. and that's sometimes what's missing when you don't have that full spectrum. keri: and i also think from the perspective of the audience,

um, you know, we've seen so many examples of if you see it, you believe you can, you can be it... stephanie: absolutely. keri: and i think that that feeling of, of obviously equity is important across all industries. but i think when you're talking about culture and you're talking about storytelling and what stories we value and what, what reflects us, um, young people either see themselves or they don't. stephanie: yes. keri: and i think for, you know, we're talking about what we each might have thought were possible for jobs or possible for ourselves. i think it's such an important part of this industry. it's one of the reasons i love it. stephanie: hollywood, the industry is one of the least, least um, open, inclusive businesses like oil is more inclusive in terms of ceos and people of color than hollywood. kim: really? stephanie: and we're setting the agenda. we're creating the content that goes all over the world.

so if you think about that, the power that we have to tell stories, to include people, it's kind of unfathomable. you wouldn't think, it's so liberal in hollywood and this and that, but that's not the way it is. so um, there's still lots of work to do. keri: but i will say there's been some improvement. stephanie: oh, look, if you've been in the game as long as we have. keri: yeah. stephanie: some young kids don't know. we've come a long way, baby. keri: and, and, and television and streaming is, is a really good example, i think. stephanie: i think so, too. i think so, too. kim: so stephanie, in 2015, the #oscarssowhite campaign highlighted the lack of diversity in hollywood, and you produced one of the most diverse awards ceremony in 2020. stephanie: thank you. kim: yes, that's a completely different muscle you're using there, i mean... stephanie: yes. kim: how was that? stephanie: oh, it was the most fun of my career. kim: was it? stephanie: i loved it. kim: not stressful? keri: it had to be terrifying. stephanie: it was the combination of live theater and what we do. but there were no, no "take twos,"

nothing like that. there's one rehearsal. there's one rehearsal for that whole show. kim: one rehearsal? stephanie: one rehearsal. it was really important to us that it be diverse and inclusive. um, there was a lot of pushback, i'll be honest, like, you know, even for someone as amazing as janelle monae who opened the show, it was a struggle. it was a struggle to make that happen, you know what i mean? um, and but, but we persevered and i'm super proud of the show. it was, it took me three weeks to come down. talk about, like the, the, the adrenaline. keri: i bet it did. stephanie: it, it did. i was just operating at. keri: i remember seeing you after you did, yeah, you were, you guys did a great job. stephanie: was i little, i was a little. keri: you were, you were... stephanie: i was, i was buzzing. keri: riding high, yeah. stephanie: yeah, yeah, it was great, it was fun. kim: understandably. now there's an ongoing debate about having gender-neutral awards at the oscars. where do you stand on this, keri? keri: hmm.

stephanie: yeah, where do you stand? keri: you know, i was just thinking about this because somebody and i don't, i don't have the answer because i think um, i would say on balance, i'm for it. i, i actually think acting shouldn't be awarded in a gendered way. the thing that i worry about is fewer. so if you have only one acting category, then it would be five, not ten or however, uh, so i think. stephanie: eight men, two women. keri: and then i think then you could end up replicating some of the um, issues we've seen in the director's category... stephanie: that's a really good point. keri: where we've just, we talked about that earlier, but so um i like in a way, i like that there's a, a space to be sure that women and women-identifying artists... stephanie: that's really smart. keri: will be honored, but i, i wish there didn't need to be. so that's kind of where i stand right now. stephanie: i'm with her. i think that's really smart. kim: one final question, is there a story, a narrative that hasn't been done yet,

which you'd like to see on the big screen in the future? any dream projects essentially, stephanie? stephanie: i have my dream project. it's not on the big screen. it is on hbo. keri: okay. stephanie: and it is "sula," toni morrison's amazing novel. keri: oh, how great. stephanie: and we are you know, it's, it's going to be a limited series. we already have four of the eight scripts. they're beyond amazing. and i, i just it's, it's, it's one of these projects that, you know, i read that book in college, it's like, it's, it's black women being whatever we want to be. and that's what's so great about it. and it's going to frighten the hell out of people because it's wild. kim: looking forward to it. stephanie: so that's, that, yes, that'll be my next thing. keri: i don't, i don't have, i don't have a project like that in my head right now that i'm ready, that i, that i feel like, and i think, uh, um, yeah, i don't, i don't have a single project that's the one i've been waiting to see or waiting to make, um, but i think i'll know it when i see it and i'm certainly out there looking.

kim: keri and stephanie, thank you both very much. keri: thank you. stephanie:t's been fun. (music plays through credits). narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: financial services firm, raymond james. man: bdo. accountants and advisors. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs.

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