♪ >> announcer: from nbc news the presidential debate. here are lester holt and savannah guthrie vannah gut. >> good evening, everyone. welcome to the first 2020 presidential debate. donaldrump and joe biden face-to-face with election day just 35 days away, and voting already under way by mail or in person, in 30 states. >> and the stage is set, it's in cleveland, ohio tonight. the co-host, case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic. the moderator is fox news anchor

chris wallace. and the stakes, well, they're high. the presidency and the future direction of the country on the line tonight, lester. >> there's a lot of ground to cover, savannah, over the next 90 minutes. the candidates' records, including president trump's tax returns, the supreme court vacancy, the pandemic, the economy, racism, and civil unrest, and the integrity of the election itself. >> we may need a little longer than an hour and a half. the debate commission has set the rules and has determined, by the way, that the moderator is not responsible for fact-checking the candidates tonight. but our team is standing by to do just that and to offer expert insight and analysis. and for live fact checking during the debate, go to nbcnews.com. we'll go first to correspondent hallie jackson inside the debate hall. hall hallie, what are you hearing from both camps? >> two different candidates and two different kinds of debate prep that's been happening. sources close to president trump, for example, say he's

really been doing more informal q&a's with his advisers. people familiar with biden's planning say his focus this week has gotten more intense as he's done issue by issue practice sessions. watch for president trump to try to turn this race into less of a referendum and more of a choice. he will go on attack, according to aides, by getting personal with joe biden, going after his son, hunter biden. joe biden will focus on the pandemic, he wants to keep the focus on that, and you won't see a lot of live fact checking from him unless something is particularly egregious, savannah. >> also with us is nbc news political director and moderator of "meet the press," chuck todd. chuck, what will you be watching for this evening? >> i'll tell you, it's an unusual situation when the frontrunner is the challenger and the person that has to up-end the race is actually the incumbent, and that's donald trump here. i'm curious to see, does president trump -- he's been telegraphing that he's going to get personal and do whatever it

takes to shake up joe biden. but does he actually tell voters what he wants to do for a second term? it's something he hasn't done. for joe biden, it's obvious, is he able to parry away trump's attacks without chasing him down rabbit holes? >> chief correspondent andrea mitchell is there, the moderator is in place. this race has been remarkably stable. a debate always has the opportunity to up-end things, andrea. >> absolutely. and donald trump goes into this debate farther behind the national polls than any incumbent since george herbert walker bush against bill clinton and ross perot. he is a performer, and of course we have to see how he performs tonight. >> all right, andrea, thanks. with the debate about to begin we want to go to cleveland and moderator chris wallace.

here he is. >> good evening from the health educational campus of case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic. i'm chris wallace of fox news and i welcome you to the first of the 2020 presidential debates between president donald j. trump and former vice president joe biden. this debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. the commission has designed the format, roughly 15-minute segments with two-minute answers from each candidate to the first question, then open discussion for the rest of each segment. both campaigns have agreed to these rules. for the record, i decided the topics and the questions in each topic. i can assure you, none of the questions has been shared with

the commission or the two candidates. this debate is being conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the cleveland clinic which is serving as the health security adviser to the commission for all four debates. as a precaution, the candidates have agreed not to shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. the audience in the hall has promised to remain silent, no cheers, boos or other interruptions so we and more importantly you can focus on what the candidates have to say. no noise except right now, as we welcome the republican nominee, president trump, and the democratic nominee, vice president biden. [ applause ] >> how are you doing, man?

>> how are you? >> gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night. so let's get going. our first subject is the supreme court. president trump, you nominated amy coney barrett over the weekend to succeed the late ruth bader ginsburg on the court. you say the constitution is clear about your obligation and the senate's to consider a nominee to the court. vice president biden, you say this is an effort by the president and republicans to jam through an appointment and what you call an abuse of power. my first question to both of you tonight, why are you right in the argument you make and your opponent wrong? and where do you think a justice barrett would take the court? president trump, in this first segment, you go first. two minutes. >> thank you very much, chris. ly tell you very simply, we won the election. elections have consequences.

we have the senate. we have the white house. and we have a phenomenal nominee, respected by all, top, top academic, uh, good in every way, good in every way. in fact some of her biggest endorsers are very liberal people from notre dame and other places. so i think she's going to be fantastic. we have plenty of time. even if we did it after the election itself. i have a lot of time after the election, as you know. so you think that, uh, she will be outstanding. she's going to be as good as anybody that has served on that court. we really feel that. we have a professor of notre dame, highly respected by all, said she's the single greatest student he's ever had. we won the election and therefore we have the right to choose her. and very few people knowingly would say otherwise. and by the way, the democrats, they wouldn't even think about not doing it. the only difference is they're trying to do it faster. there's no way they would give

it up. they had merrick garland but the problem is they didn't have the election. so they were stopped. and probably that would happen in reverse also. definitely it would happen in reverse. so we won the election. and we have the right to do it, chris. >> president trump, thank you. same question to you, vice president biden. you have two minutes. >> first of all, thank you for doing this, and i'm looking forward to this, mr. president. >> thank you, joe. >> the american people have a right to have a say in who the supreme court nominee is. and that say occurs when they vote for a united states senator and when they vote for the president of the united states. they're not going to get that chance now, because we're in the middle of an election already. the election has already started. tens of thousands of people have already voted. and so the thing that should happen is we should wait. we should wait and see what the outcome of this election is. because that's the only way the american people get to express

their view, is by who they elected as president and who they elect as vice president. now, what's at stake here, the president has made it clear he wants to get rid of the affordable care act. he's been running on that. he ran on that, and he has been governing on that. he's in the supreme court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act, which will strip 20 million people from having insurance, health insurance now, if it goes in the court, and the justice -- and i have nothing -- i'm not opposed to the justice, she seems like a very fine person. but she's written, before she went on the bench, which is her right, that she thinks the affordable care act is not constitutional. the other thing -- if it's struck down, what happens? women's rights are fundamentally changed. once again, a woman can pay more money because she has a preexisting condition, an operati pregnancy. they're able to charge a woman more for the same exact

procedure a man gets. and that ended when we in fact passed the affordable care act. and there's a hundred million people who have preexisting conditions, and they'll be taken away as well, those preexisting conditions. the insurance companies are going to love this. so et ceteit's just not appropr do this before this election. if he wins the election and the senate is democrat -- republican, he goes forward. if not, he should wait until february. >> there aren't 100 million people with preexisting conditions. okay, justice ginsburg said, very powerfully, very strongly, at some point ten years ago or so, she said a president and the senate is elected for a period of time. but a president's elected for four years. we're not elected for three years. i'm not elected for three years. so we have the senate -- >> elected until the next election. >> during that period of time, during that period of time, we

have an opening. i'm not elected for three years. i'm elected for four years. >> the election has already started. >> joe, 100 million people is totally wrong, i don't know where you got that number. the bigger problem that you have is you're going to extinguish 180 million people with their private health care that they're very -- >> that's simply not true. >> you're a socialist. >> gentlemen, we're now into open discussion. >> open discussion. >> yes, i agree. go ahead, mr. vice president. >> number one, he knows that -- what i proposed. what i proposed is that we expand obamacare and we increase it. we do not wipe any -- and one of the big debates we had with 23 of my colleagues trying to win the nomination that i won, we're saying that biden wanted to allow people to have private insurance still. they can. they do. they will under my proposal. >> not what you said and it's not what your party has said. >> that is simply a lie. that is -- >> your party wants to go socialist medicine. >> the party is me.

right now i am the democratic party. i am the democratic party right now. the platform of the democratic part is what i in fact approved of, what i approved of. now, here's the deal. the deal is that it's going to wipe out preexisting conditions. and by the way, the 200,000 people that have died on his watch, how many of those have survived? there's 7 million people that contracted covid. what does it mean for them going forward if you strike down the affordable care act? >> joe, you have 308,000 military people dying because you couldn't provide them proper health care in the military. >> i'm happy to talk about -- look, here's the deal. >> you were very late on the draw. you didn't want me to ban china which was heavily infected. you didn't want me -- >> mr. president, no. mr. president. mr. president. >> you're talking about 2 million people.

>> we are going to talk about covid in the next segment. go ahead. >> let me finish. the point is that the president also is opposed to roe v. wade. that's on the ballot as well, in the court, in the court. so that's also at stake right now. and so the election is all -- >> you don't know what's in the ballot. why is it on the ballot? it's not on the ballot. >> it's on the ballot in the court. in the court. >> i don't think so. there's nothing happening there. >> donald, would you just be quiet for a minute? >> you don't know her view on roe v. wade. >> all right. let's talk -- we've got a lot to unpack here, gentlemen, we've got a lot of time. on health care, and then we'll come back to roe v. wade, mr. president, the supreme court will hear a case a week after the election in which the trump administration along with 18 state attorneys general are seeing to overturn -- >> that's right. >> -- obamacare.

to end obamacare. if i may ask my question, sir. over the last four years you have promised to repeal and replace obamacare. but you have never in these four years come up with a plan, a comprehensive plan -- >> yes, i have. >> -- to replace obama. >> of course i have. >> when i finish, i'll give you an opportunity. >> i got rid of the individual mandate. >> that is not a comprehensive plan. >> that is absolutely a big thing, that was the worst part of obamacare. >> let me ask my question. >> i'll ask joe. the individual mandate was -- >> mr. president, i would like -- mr. president, i'm the moderator of this debate and i would like you to let me ask my question and then you can as answer. >> go ahead. >> in the course of these four years you have never come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare. and just this last thursday, you signed a largely symbolic executive order to protect

people with preexisting conditions five days before this debate. so my question, sir, is what is the trump health care plan. >> first of all, guess i'm debating you, not him, but that's okay, i'm not surprised. let me just tell you something. there's nothing symbolic. i'm cutting drug prices. i'm going with favored nations which no president had the courage to do because you're going against big pharma. drug prices will be coming down 80 or 90%. you could have done it during your 47-year period in government but you didn't do it, nobody's done it. >> what about preexisting conditions? >> i'll give you an example, insulin, it was destroying people, destroying families. i'm getting it for so cheap it's like water, you want to know the truth, so cheap. take a look at t take a look at all of the drugs, they'll go to other countries to buy drugs because it's a tiny fraction. >> sir, you'll be happy, i'm

about to pick up on one of your points to ask the vice president, which he points out that you would like to add a public option to obamacare. >> yes. >> and the argument that he makes, and other republicans make, is that that is going to end private insurance. >> it is not. >> let me ask the question. >> i'm sorry. >> that's not what your party says, by the way. >> it will end private insurance and create a government takeover of health care. >> it does not. it's only for those people who are so poor they qualify for medicaid, they can get that free in most states except governors that want to deny people who are poor medicaid. anyone who wants to qualify for medicare -- excuse me, medicaid, would automatically be enrolled in the public option. the vast majority of the american people would still not be in that option, number one. >> joe, you agree with bernie sanders, who is far left on the manifesto, we call it, which gives you socialized medicine. >> look, hey, i'm not going to listen to him.

the fact of the matter is i beat bernie sanders. >> not by much. >> i beat him a whole hell of a lot. i'm here facing you a lot. >> pocahontas would have left two days early. >> all he knows how to do -- look, here's the deal. >> you got very lucky. >> i'm going to be very lucky tonight as well. tonight i'll make sure, because here's the deal, here's the deal. the fact is that everything he's saying so far is simply a lie. i'm not here to call out his lies. everybody knows he's a liar. i just want to make sure -- >> you were last in your class, not first in your class. >> i want to make sure -- >> mr. president, can you let him finish, sir? >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> you would be is surprised. >> you picked the wrong guy, the wrong night, the wrong time. the whole idea, there is no manifesto, let him one. >> please let him speak, mr. president. >> you just lost the left. >> number two -- >> you just lost the left. you agreed with bernie sanders

on a plan, you absolutely agreed to -- >> folks, do you have any idea what he's doing? >> socialized medicine. >> i'll tell you what. he is not for any help for people needing health care, because his -- >> who, bernie? >> he in fact already has cost 10 million people their health care that they had from their employers because of his recession, number one. number two -- >> oh, yeah, yeah. >> -- there are 20 million people getting health care through obamacare now that he wants to take it away. he won't ever look you in the eye and say that's what he wants to do. take it away. >> no, i want to give them better health care at a much lower price. >> he doesn't know how. he doesn't know how to do that. >> i've already fixed it to an extent. >> he has never done a single thing. >> gentlemen, you realize if you're both speaking at the same time -- let the president -- go ahead, sir. >> obamacare is no good. we made it better. and i had a choice to make very early on, we took away the individual mandate. we guaranteed preexisting conditions.

but took away the individual mandate -- listen, this is the way it is. and that destroyed -- they shouldn't even call it obamacare. then i had a choice to make. do i let my people run it really well or badly. if i run it badly, they'll probably blame him but they'll blame me but more importantly i want to help people, okay? i said, you have to run it so well. and i just had a meeting with them, they said the problem is no matter how well you run obamacare, it's a disaster, it's too expensive, the premiums are too high. >> that doesn't work. >> we do want to get rid of it. chris, we want to get -- >> i understand, sir, but i have to give you roughly equal time. please let the vice president talk. >> good. >> he has no plan for health care. >> of course we do. >> please. >> he sends out wishful thinking. he has executive orders that have no power. he hasn't lowered drug costs for anybody. he's been promising the health care plan since he got elected. he has none. like almost everything else he talks about, he does not have a

plan. he doesn't have a plan. and the fact is this man doesn't know what he's talking about. >> all right. i have one final question for you. >> sure. >> mr. vice president. if senate republicans -- we were talking originally about the supreme court here. if senate republicans go ahead and confirm justice barrett, there has been talk about ending the filibuster or even packed the court, adding to the nine justices there. you call this a distraction by the president. but in fact it wasn't brought up by the president, it was brought up by some of your democratic colleagues in the congress. >> i'm saying -- >> so my question to you is, you have refused in the past to talk about it. are you willing to tell the american people tonight whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court? >> whatever position i take in that, that will become the issue. the issue is the american people should speak. you should go out and vote. you're voting now. vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel.

>> are you going to pack the court? >> vote now. make sure you in fact let people know, your senator. >> he's not going to answer the question. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why wouldn't you answer the question? >> the question is -- will you shut up, man? >> who is on your list, joe? >> gentlemen, i think -- >> this is so unprofessional. >> he's not going to give a list. >> we've ended this segment. >> that was really a productive segment, wasn't it? keep yapping, man. >> the people understand. 47 years, you've done nothing. they understand. >> all right. the second subject is covid-19, which is an awfully serious subject, so let's try to be serious about it. we have had more than 7 million cases of coronavirus in the united states and more than 200,000 people have died. even after we produced a vaccine, experts say it could be months or even years before we

come back to anything approaching normal. my question for both of you is, based on what you have said and done so far, and what you have said you would do starting in 2021, why should the american people trust you more than your opponent to deal with this public health crisis going forward, in this case the question goes to you first, sir. two minutes uninterrupted. >> good luck. 200,000 dead. as you said, over 7 million infected in the united states. we in fact have 5% -- 4% of the world's population, 20% of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting covid. in addition to that, about between 750 and a thousand people a day are dying. when he was presented with that number, he said it is what it is. it is what it is, because you are who you are. that's why it is. the president has no plan.

he hasn't laid out anything. he knew all the way back in february how serious this crisis was. he knew it was a deadly disease. what did he do? he's on tape as acknowledging he knew it. he said he didn't tell us or give people a warning of it because he didn't want to panic the american people. you don't panic. he panicked. in addition to that, what did he do? he went in, we were insisting that the chinese -- the people we had on the ground in china should be able to go to wuhan and determine for themselves how dangerous this was. he did not even ask xi to do that. he told us what a great job xi was doing. he said we owe him a debt of gratitude for being so transparent with us. and what did he do then? he then did nothing. he waited and waited and waited. he still doesn't have a plan. i laid out back in march exactly what we should be doing. and i laid out again in july what we should be doing. we should be providing all the

protective gear possible. we should be providing the money the house has passed in order to be able to go out and get people the help they need to keep their businesses open, open schools, it costs a lot of money. you should get out of your bunker and get out of the sand trap in your golf course and go in the oval office and bring together the democrats and republicans and fund what needs to be done now to save lives. >> so if we had listened to you -- >> you have two minutes, sir. >> if we would have listened to you the country would have been left wide open. millions of people would have died, not 200,000, and one person is too much, it's china's fault, it should have never happened, they stopped it from going in, but it was china's fault. and by the way, when you talk about numbers, you don't know how many people died in china, you don't know how many people died in russia, you don't know how many people died in india, they don't exactly give you a straight count, just so you understand. but if you look at what we've done, they said he's a racist and he's xenophobic.

you didn't think we should have closed our country because it was too -- it was terrible. you wouldn't have closed it for another two months. by my doing it early, in fact dr. fauci said president trump saved thousands of lives. many of your democrat governors said president trump did a phenomenal job. we worked with the governors. oh, really? go take a look. your governors said i did a phenomenal job, most of them said that. in fact people that would not be necessarily on my side said that. president trump did a phenomenal job. we did. we got the gowns, we got the masks, we made the ventilators. you wouldn't have made ventilators. and now we're weeks away from a vaccine. we're doing therapeutics already. fewer people are dying when they get sick, far fewer people are dying. we've done a great job. the only thing i haven't done a good job and that's because of the fake news, no matter what you say to 'em, they give you bad press on it, it's fake news. they give you good press, they give me bad press, because that's the way it is, unfortunately.

let me tell me you something. i don't care, i've gotten used to it. you could never have done the job we did, you don't have it in your blood, you could have never done it, joe. >> i know how to do the job. >> you didn't do very well in swine flu. h1n1, your own chief said you were a disaster. >> 14,000 people died, not 200,000. >> sir, you made a point, let him answer it. >> we didn't shut down the economy. this is his economy, that he shut down. the reason it's shut down is because, look, you folks at home, how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of covid? how many of you were in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and you couldn't even speak to them, you had a nurse holding the phone up so you could say goodbye? >> you would have lost far more people. >> he owned -- his own cdc director says we could lose

assist many as another 200,000 people between now and the end of the year. and he said, if we just wear a mask, we can save half those numbers, just a mask. and by the way, in terms of the whole notion of a vaccine, we're for a vaccine but i don't trust him at all, nor do you, i know you don't. what we trust is the scientists. >> you don't trust pfizer? >> by the way -- >> gentlemen, let me move on to questions about the future, because you both have touched on one of the -- two of the questions i'm going to ask. focusing on the future first, president trump, you have repeatedly either contradicted or been at odds with some of your government's own top scientists. the week before last, the head of the centers for disease control, dr. redfield, said it would be summer before the vaccine would become generally available to the public. you said that he was confused and mistaken. those were your two words.

but dr. slaoui, your head of operation warp speed, has said exactly the same thing. are they wrong? >> i've spoken to the companies and we could have it a lot sooner. it's a political thing, because people like this would rather make it political than save lives. it is a very political thing. i've spoken to pfizer. of a spoken to all the people you have to speak to. we have great -- moderna, johnson & johnson, and others. they can go faster than that by a lot. it's become very political, because the left or i don't know if i call him left, i don't know what i call him -- >> the head of your operation warp speed, dr. sloui -- >> i disagree. i had him in my office two days ago. >> he talked about the summer, sir, before it's generally available. >> he said there's a possibility that we'll have the answer before november 1. it could also be -- >> you said generally available. >> we'll deliver it right away, we have the military settle up, logistically we'll have it all set up. we have a military that delivers with soldiers, 200,000 a day. >> this is the same man who told

you by easter this would be gone away, by the warm weather it would be gone, miraculously, like a miracle. and by the way, maybe you can inject some bleach in your arm. >> that was said sarcastically, you know that. >> here's the deal. this man is talking about a vaccine. every serious -- every serious company is talking about maybe having a vaccine done by the end of the year. but the distribution of that vaccine will not occur until sometime beginning in the middle of next year to get it out if we get the vaccine. and pray god we will, pray god we will. >> you'll have a vaccine sooner than that. >> mr. vice president, i want to pick up on this question. you say the public can trust the scientists but can't trust president trump. you said that again tonight. your running mate senator harris goes further, saying the public health experts will be mudszzle will be suppressed. polls show people are concerned

about the vaccine and are reluctant to take it. are you and your running mate senator harris contributing to the fear? >> no more than the question you just asked him. you pointed out, he puts pressure on and disagrees with his own scientists. >> but you're saying and senator harris is saying you can't trust the skiechcientists. >> no, you can trust the scientists. she didn't say that. >> she said the scientists will be muzzled and suppressed. >> that's what he'll do. but there's thousands of scientists like here at this great hospital that don't work for him, their job doesn't depend on him. they're the people, and by the way -- >> i spoke to the scientists that are in charge. they'll have the vaccine very soon. >> do you believe for a moment what he's telling you, in light of all the lies he's told you about the whole issue relating to covid? he still hasn't even acknowledged that he knew this was happening, knew how dangerous it was going to be

back in february, and he didn't even tell you. he's on record as saying it. he panicked or he just looked at the stock market, one of the two. because guess what, a lot of people died and a lot more people will die unless he gets a lot smarter. >> did you use the word smart? you said you went to delaware state but you forgot the name of your college, you didn't go to delaware case, you graduated either the lowest or almost lowest in your class. don't ever use the word smart with me, don't ever use your word. >> give me a break. >> there's nothing smart about you, joe. 47 years -- let me just tell you something, joe. if you would have had the charge of what i was put through, i had to close the greatest economy in the history of our country -- >> we'll be going to the econom. >> it's going up fast. >> the two of you have taken

different approaches. this is going to affect how the virus is handled going forward by whichever of you ends up becoming the next president. i want to quickly go through several of those. reopenings. vice president biden, you have been much more reluctant than president trump about reopening the economy and schools. why, sir? >> because he doesn't have a plan. if i were running it, i would know what the plan is. you have to provide these businesses the ability to have the money to be able to reopen, well, ppe, as well as with the sanitation they need. you have to provide -- >> nancy pelosi. >> would he just shush for a minute? >> tell it to nancy pelosi, and schumer. crying chuck. >> nancy pelosi and schumer have a plan hea. he won't even meet with them. he sits at his golf course, literally, think about it. >> you probably play more than i do, joe. >> what about the questions of reopenings? >> he wants to shut down this country. and i want to keep it open.

and we -- >> he didn't shut it down. >> let me shut you down, just for one second. we want to -- he wants to shut down the country. we just went through it. we had to because we didn't know anything about the disease. now we found that elderly people with heart problems and diabetes and different problems are very, very vulnerable. we learned a lot. young children aren't. even younger people aren't. we've learned a lot. buheantso wshut it down. more people will be hurt by continuing. if you look at pennsylvania, if you look at certain states that have been shut down, they have democrat governors all. one of the reasons it's shut down is because they want to keep it shut down until after the election. >> all right. i want to move on to another subject. >> i've got to respond to that. >> gentlemen, i want to move on. >> those states are not doing well. >> i want to respond to that. >> president trump, you have begun to increasingly question the effectiveness of masks as a disease preventer and recently

you've cited the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates. are you questioning the -- >> no, you have to understand, if you look, i have a mask right here, i put a mask on when i think i need it. tonight is an example, everybody's had a test, and you've had social distancing and all the things you have to, i wear masks when needed, when needed i wear masks. i don't wear masks like them, every time you see him he's got a mask, he could be speaking 200 feet away, he shows up with the biggest mask i've ever seen. >> vice president biden, go ahead, sir. >> look, the way to open businesses is to give them the wherewithal to be able to open. >> i was asking about masks. >> masks make a big difference. his own head of the cdc said if we just wore masks between now -- if everybody wore a mask and social distanced between now and january we would probably save up to 100,000 lives. it matters. it matters. >> they've also said the opposite.

>> no serious person said the opposite. no serious person. >> dr. fauci. dr. fauci said the opposite. >> he did not say the opposite. he said very strongly. >> he said masks are not good, then he changed his mind and said masks are good. i'm okay with masks. >> i want to talk about one last subject because your different approach has even affected the way you have campaigned. president trump, you're holding the large rallies with crowds packed together, thousands of people. >> outside. >> outside, agreed. vice president biden, you are holding much smaller events. >> nobody will show up. it's true. nobody shows up to his rallies. >> in any case, why are you holding the big rallies, why are you not? you go first, sir. >> because people want to hear what i have to say. i'll have 25, 35,000 people show up at airports. we use airports. >> are you not worried about -- >> well, so far, we have had no problem whatsoever.

it's outside, that's a big difference. according to the experts. we do them outside. we have tremendous crowds, as you see. i mean, every -- and literally on 24 hours notice. and joe does the sirgcircles ans three people someplace. >> by the way, one last big rallies he had, a reporter came up to him and ask him a question, he said, no, no, stand back, put on a mask, have you been tested, i'm way far away from those people, that's what he said, i'm going to be okay. he's not worried about you. he's not worried about the people breathing on one another, cheek to jowl. >> we've had no negative effect. and we've had 35, 40,000 people at these rallies. >> do you want to quickly finish up? >> yes, i would. he's been totally irresponsible, the way in which he has handled the social distancing and people wearing masks, basically encouraged them not to. he's a fool on this. >> if you could get the crowds, you would have done the same thing, but nobody can.

>> gentlemen, can we move on to the economy. >> yes. >> the economy is, i think it's fair to say, recovering faster than expected from the shutdown. >> much faster. >> in the second quarter. the unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month. the federal reserve says the hit to growth which is going to be there is not going to be nearly as big as they had expected. president trump, you say we are in a "v"-shaped recovery. vice president biden, you say it's more of a "k" shape. what difference does that mean to the american people in terms of the economy, president trump, in this segment, you go first. >> so we built the greatest economy in history. we closed it down because of the china plague. when the plague came in we closed it down, which was very hard psychologically to do. he have didn't think we should close it down, and he was wrong. again, 2 million people would be dead now instead of, still, 204,000 people is too much. one person is too much. should have never happened from china.

but what happened is, we closed it down and now we're reopening. and we're doing record business. we had 10.4 million people in a four-month period that we've put back into the workforce. that's a record the likes of which no one has seen before. he will shut it down again. he will destroy this country. you know, a lot of people between drugs and alcohol and depression, when you start shutting it down, you take a look at what's happening at some of your democrat-run states where they have these tough shutdowns and i'm telling you it's because they don't want to open it. one of them came out last week, you say that, we're going to open up november 9. why november 9? because it's after the election. they think they're hti keeping them closed. they're hurting people. people know what to do. they can social distance, they can wash their hands, they can wear masks, they can do whatever they want but they have to open these states up. when you look at north carolina, and these governors are under siege. pennsylvania, michigan, and a couple of others, you got to open these states up.

it's not fair. you're talking about almost it's like being in prison. and you look at what's going on with divorce, look at what's going on with alcoholism and drugs. it's a very, very sad thing. and he'll close down the whole country, this guy will close down the whole country and destroy our country. our country is coming back incredible well setting records as it does it. we don't need somebody to come in and shut it down. >> all right. your two minutes, sir. as i said posing the question, the president says it's a "v" shaped recovery, you say it's a "k"-shaped recovery. what's the difference? >> the difference is millionaires and billionaires like him in the middle of a covid crisis have done very well. billionaires have made another $300 billion, because of his profligate tax proposal, and he only focused on the market. but you folks at home, you folks living in scranton and claymont and all the small towns and working class towns in america,

how well are you doing? this guy paid a total of $750 in taxes. >> wrong. >> sir, it's his turn. i understand, you've agreed to the two minutes, so please let him have it. >> do i get my time back? the fact is he is in fact worked on this in a way that he's going to be the first president of the united states to leave office having fewer jobs in his administration than when he became president. fewer jobs than when he became president. first one in american history. secondly, the people who have lost their jobs are those people who have been on the front lines. those people who have been saving our lives. those people who have been out there dying. people who have been putting themselves in the way to make sure that we could all try to make it. and the idea that he is insisting that we go forward and open when you have almost half the states in america with a significant increase in covid deaths and covid cases in the united states of america, and he wants to open it up more. why does he want to open it up?

why doesn't he take care of the american -- you can't fix the economy until you fix the covid crisis and he has no intention of doing anything about making it better for you all at home in terms of your health and your safety. schools. why aren't schools open? because it costs a lot of money to open safely. you know, they were going to give -- his administration was going to give the teachers and school students masks. then they decided, no, couldn't do that because it's not a national emergency. not a national emergency. they've done nothing to help small businesses. nothing. they're closing. one in six is now gone. he ought to get on the job and take care of the needs of the american people so we can open safely. >> your time is up, sir. we're -- >> i have to respond to that. >> you both have two minutes, sir. >> excuse me. he made a statement. >> so did you. >> no. people want their schools open. they don't want to be shut down. they don't want their states shut down. they want their restaurants. i look at new york, it's so sad what's happening in new york, it's almost like a ghost town,

and i'm not sure it can ever recover, what they've done in new york. people want their places open. they want to get -- >> people want to be safe. >> they want their schools open. i'm the one that brought back football, by the way, i brought back big 10 football, it was me and i'm very happy to do it. people of ohio are very proud of me. and you know how i got that? >> gentlemen, we're going to get to your economic plans going forward in a moment. but first, mr. president, as you well know, there's a new report that in 2016, the year you were elected president, and 2017, your first year as president, that you paid $750 a year in federal income tax each of those years. i know that you pay a lot of other taxes. but i'm asking you the specific question, is it true that you paid $750 in federal income taxes each of those two years? >> i paid millions of dollars in taxes. millions of dollars of income tax. and let me just tell you, there

was a story in one of the papers -- >> show us your tax returns. >> i paid $38 million one year. i paid $27 million one year. >> show us your tax returns. >> i went -- you'll see it as soon as it's finished, you'll see it. >> oh. >> go to the board of elections. there's 118-page or so report that says everything i have, every bank i have, i'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good, and we have a very -- i built -- >> sir, i'm asking you a specific question. >> let me tell you -- >> i understand all of that. >> let me -- >> no, mr. president. i'm asking you a question. will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017? >> millions of dollars. >> you paid millions of dollars -- so not $750? >> and you'll get to see it. >> when? >> chris, let me just tell you something. it was the tax laws. i don't want to pay tax. before i came here, i was a private developer.

i was a private business people. like every other private person, unless they're stupid, they go through the laws and that's what it is. he passed a tax bill that gave us all these privileges for depreciation and for tax credits. we built a building, we get tax credits like the hotel on pennsylvania avenue, you get a massive -- which by the way was given to me by the obama administration, if you can believe that. now, the man got fired right after that happened. but -- >> vice president, you want to respond? >> do i want to respond. look, the tax code that made him -- put him in a position that he pays less tax than a schoolteacher -- on the money a schoolteacher makes is because of him -- he says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tax code. and he does take advantage of the tax code. that's why i'm going to eliminate the trump tax cuts and -- i'm going to eliminate those tax cuts and make sure we invest in the people who in fact need the help. people out there need help.

>> why didn't you do it over -- >> no, no. >> why didn't you -- >> because you weren't president screwing things up. you're the worst president america has ever had, come on. >> let me just tell you, joe. i've done more in 47 months, i've done more than you've done in 47 years, joe. we've done things that you never even thought of doing. >> okay, gentlemen. >> including fixing the broken military you gave me including -- >> mr. president, we're talking about the economy. i would like to ask you about your plans going forward, because, mr. vice president, your economic plan, if you were to be elected president, focuses a lot on big government, big taxes, big spending. i want to focus first on the taxes. you propose more than $4 trillion over a decade in new taxes on individuals making more than $400,000 a year and on corporations. president trump says that that kind of an increase in taxes is going to hurt the economy as it's just coming out of a recession.

>> well, just take a look at what is the analysis done by wall street firms. it points out that my economic plan would create 7 million more jobs than his in four years, number one. and number two, it would create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth because it would be about buying american, that -- the federal government spends $600 billion here on everything from ships to steel to buildings and the like. and under my proposal, we're going to make sure that every penny of that has to be made by a company -- >> sir, i'm talking about taxes, not spending. >> by the way, i'm going to eliminate a significant amount of tax. i'm going to make the corporate tax 28%, it shouldn't be 21%. you have 91 companies in the fortune 500 who don't pay a single penny of tax making billions of dollars. >> why didn't you do it before when you were vice president with obama?

>> because you in fact passed that. that was your tax proposal. >> i got it done. >> you got it done. >> and our economy boomed like it never boomed -- >> let me finish. >> mr. president, let me pick up on that. you would continue your free market approach, lower taxes, more deregulation. >> not lower taxes to the american people. >> but in obama's -- you talk about the economy booming. it turns out in obama's final three years as president, more jobs were created, a million and a half more jobs, than in the first three years of your presidency. >> they had the slowest recovery since -- economic recovery since 1929. it was the slowest recovery. also, they took over something that was down here, all you had to do was turn on the lights and you pick up a lot. it's the slowest economic recovery since 1929. let me tell you about the stock market. when the stock market goes up, that means jobs. it also means 401(k)'s. if you got in, if you ever became president, with your

ideas, you want to terminate my taxes, i'll tell you what, you'll lose half of the companies that have poured in here will leave, they'll leave for other places. they will leave, and you'll have a depression the likes of which you've never seen. >> look, we inherited the worst recession short of a depression in american history. i was asked to bring it back. we were able to have an economic recovery that created the jobs you're talking about. we handed him a booming economy. he blew it. he blew it. >> it wasn't booming. it was the weakest recovery -- >> wait. is it fair to say he blew it when in fact there was record low unemployment before covid? >> because what he did, even before covid, manufacturing went in the hole. manufacturing went in the hole. >> excuse me, chris. wait. >> number two. number three -- >> they said it would take -- no, you said number two. chris, they said it would take a

miracle to bring back manufacturing. i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothing. they gave up on manufacturing. >> i'm the guy that brought back the automobile industry. we brought back -- i was asked to bring back chrysler and general motors. we brought them back right here in the state of ohio and michigan. he blew it. they're gone. he blew it. and in fact, they're -- >> ohio had the best year it's ever had last year. michigan had the best year they've ever had. >> that is not true. >> many car companies came in from germany, from japan, went to michigan, went to ohio. >> they're not. >> mr. vice president, go ahead. >> and so you take a look at what he's actually done. he's done very little. his trade deals are the same way. he talks about these great trade deals. he talks about the tart of the deal. china has perfected the art of the steal. we have a hoyigher deficit now with china than we did before. >> china ate your lunch, joe. and no wonder, your son goes in

and he takes out -- he takes out billions of dollars, takes out billions of dollars to manage, he makes millions of dollars, and also -- >> simply not true. >> why is it, simply out of curiosity, the mayor of moscow's wife gave your son $3.5 million. >> that's not true. >> what did he do to deserve it? what did he do with burisma? >> none of that is true. >> let him answer. >> none that have is true. >> oh, really? >> mr. president. mr. president, please. you've asked a question. >> totally discredited, totally discredited. >> he didn't get -- >> mr. president. >> he got $3.5 million. >> that's not true. >> oh, really? >> it's open discussion. >> it's a fact. >> you have raised an issue. let the vice president answer. >> it's been totally discredited. >> 183,000 a month with no experience in energy. >> mr. president. >> my son did nothing wrong at burisma. >> i think he did. >> let him answer.

>> he doesn't want to let me answer because he knows i have the truth. his position has totally and thoroughly discredited. >> by who? by the media? >> by the media, by our allies, bit wor by the world bank, by everyone. as a matter of fact, even people who testified under oath, under oath -- >> let me ask you -- >> i'm listening to you. $3.5 million from moscow. >> he testified under oath and his administration said i did my job and i did it very well. >> oh, really? i would like to know who they are. >> i'll give you the list of the people who testified. you've already fired most of them because they did a good job. >> some people don't do a good job. >> wait a minute. you have get the final word. >> it's hard to get any word in with this clown -- excuse me, this person. >> let me just say -- >> no. mr. president. mr. president. >> 3.5 million, joe. why did he deserve 3.5 million from moscow? >> here's the deal. we want to talk about families

and ethics? i don't want to do that. i mean, his family, we could talk about all night. his family -- >> my family lost a fortune by coming down and helping -- every single one of them -- >> this is not about my family or his family. it's about your families, the american people. that's not true. he doesn't want to talk about what you need, you, the american people. it's about you. that's what we're talking about. >> that's the end of the segment. we're moving on. mr. -- >> can i be honest? it's a very important -- >> no. no. the answer to the question is no. no. sir. >> ukraine, with a billion dollars -- >> that is absolutely not true. >> you're going to have -- gentlemen. i hate to raise my voice but why should i be different than the two of you? >> that's a good point.

>> we have six segments. we have ended that segment. we're going to go to the next segment. in that next segment, you'll have two uninterrupted minutes. you can say whatever you want during those two minutes, mr. president. the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. i'm appealing to you to do that, sir. >> and him do. >> frankly you've been doing more interrupting. >> he does plenty. >> less than you have. let's please continue on. the issue of race. vice president biden, you say that president trump's response to the violence in charlottesville three years ago, when he talked about very fine people on both sides, was what directly led you to launch this run for president. >> oh, yeah, sure. >> president trump, you have often said that you believe you have done more for black americans than any president

with the possible exception of abraham lincoln. my question for the two of you is, why should voters trust you rather than your opponent to deal with the race issues facing this country over the next four yea years? vice president biden, you go first. >> it's about equity and equality. it's about decency. it's about the constitution. and we have never walked away from trying to require equity for everyone, equality for the whole of america. but we've never accomplished it. but we've never walked away from it like he has done. it is true, the reason i got in the race, close your eyes, remember what those people looked like coming out of the fields, carrying torches, their veins bulging, spewing anti-semitic bile and accompanied by the ku klux klan. a young woman got killed. they asked the president what he thought and he said there are very fine people on both sides. no president has ever said anything like that. now, second point i would make

to you, is that when floyd was killed, when mr. floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the white house. what did he do? he came out of his bunker, had the military use tear gas on them so he could walk across to a church and hold up a bible and then what happened after that? the bishop of that very church said it was a disgrace. the general who was with him said all he ever wants to do is divide people, not unite people at all. this is a president who has used everything as a dog whistle to try to generate racist hatred, racist division. this is a man who in fact, you talk about helping african-americans, one in 1,000 african-americans has been killed because of the coronavirus. and if he doesn't do something quickly by the end of the year, one in 500 will have been killed, one in 500 african-americans. this man is the savior of african-americans?

this man cares at all? this man has done virtually nothing. look, the fact is that you have to look at what he talks about. you have to look at what he did. and what he did has been disastrous for the african-american community. >> so -- >> president trump, you have two minutes. why should americans trust you over your opponent to deal with raci racism? >> he did a crime bill, 1994, where you called them super predators, african-americans super predators and they've never forgotten it, joe. >> it's his two minutes. >> you did that, called them super predator and i'm letting people out of jail now that you've treated the african-american population, community, you have treated the black community about as bad as anybody in this country, you did the -- and that's why if you look at the polls, i'm doing better than any republican has done in a long time, because they saw what you did. you called them super predators and you've called them worse than that, because you look back at your testimony over the

years, you've called them a lot worse than that. sfar as far as the church is concerned and as far as the generals are concerned, we just got the support of 250 management leaders and generals, total support. law enforcement, almost every law enforcement group in the united states, i have florida, i have texas, i have ohio, i have -- excuse me, portland, the sheriff just came out today and he said i support president trump. i don't think you have any law enforcement. you can't even say the word law enforcement because if you say those words, you're going to lose all of your radical left supporters. and why aren't you saying those words, joe? why don't you say the words law enforcement? because you know what, if they called us in portland, we would put out that fire in a half an hour but they won't do it because they're run by radical left democrats. if you look at chicago, if you look at any place you want to look, seattle. they heard we were coming in the following day and they put up their hands and we got back seattle. minneapolis, we got it back, joe, because we believe in law

and order but you don't. the top ten cities and just about the top 40 cities are run by democrats and in many cases radical left and they've got you wrapped around their finger, joe, to a point where you don't want to say anything about law and order. and i'll tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and you're afraid to even say it. >> all right. i want to return to the question of race. vice president biden, after the grand jury in the breonna taylor case decided not to charge any of the police with homicide, you said it raises the question, quote, whether justice could be equally applied in america. do you believe that there is a separate but unequal system of justice for blacks in this country? >> yes, there is systemic injustice in this country, in education, in work, and in law enforcement. and the way in which it's enforced. but look, the vast majority of police officers are good, decent, honorable men and women.

they risk their lives every day to take care of us. but there are some bad apples. when they occur, when they find them, they have to be sorted out, they have to be held accountable. they have to be held accountable. what i'm going to do as president of the united states is call together an entire group of people at the white house, everything from the civil rights groups to the police officers, the police chiefs, and we're going to work this out. we're going to work this out so we change the way in which we have more transparency and when these things happen. these cops aren't happy when they see what happened to george floyd. these cops aren't happy to see what happened to breonna taylor. most don't like it. but we have to have a system where people are held accountable. and by the way, violence, a response, is never appropriate. never appropriate. peaceful protest is. violence is never appropriate. >> what is peaceful protest? when they run through the middle of the town and burn down stores and kill people all over the place?

>> that is not peaceful protest. >> but you say it is. >> president trump, i would like to continue with the issue of race, i promise we'll get to the issue of law and order in a moment. this month, your administration directed federal agencies to end racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege or critical race theory. why did you decide to do that, to end racial sensitivity training? and do you believe there is systemic racism in this country, sir? >> i ended it because it's racist. i ended it because a lot of people were complaining they were asked to do things that were absolutely insane, that it was a radical revolution that was taking place in our military, in our schools, all over the place. and you know it and so does everybody else. >> what is radical about racial sensitivity training, sir? >> if you were a certain person you had no status in life. it was sort of a reversal. if you look at the people, we were paying people hundreds of

thousands of dollars to teach very bad ideas and frankly very sick ideas. and really, they were teaching people to hate our country. and i'm not going to do that, i'm not going to allow that to happen. we have to go back to the core values of this country. they were teaching people that our country is a horrible place, it's a racist place, and they were teaching people to hate our country and i'm not going to allow that to happen. >> vice president biden. >> nobody is doing that. he's just a racist. here's the deal. >> let him finish. >> the fact is that there is racial insensitivity. people have to be made aware of what other people feel like, what insults them, what is demeaning to them. it's important to people. many people don't want to hurt other people's feelings. but it makes a big difference. it makes a gigantic difference in the way a child is able to grow up and have a sense of self-esteem. it's a little bit like how this

guy and his friends look down on so many people. they look down their nose on people like irish catholics like me who grew up in scranton. they look down on people who don't have money. they look down on people who are of a different faith. they look down on people who are a different color. in fact we're all americans. the only way we're going to bring this country together is bring everybody together. there's nothing we cannot do if we do it together. we can take this on and we can defeat racism in america. >> president trump. >> during the obama/biden administration there was tremendous division. there was hatred. you look at, uh, ferguson, many places, oakland, look what happened in oakland, look what happened in baltimore. frankly it was more violent than what i'm seeing now. >> oh, my lord. this is ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous. >> -- don't want to talk about law and order. are you in favor of law and order?

>> i'm in favor of law. >> you've asked him a question. let him finish. >> law and order with justice where people get treated fairly. and the fact of the matter is violent crime went down 17%, 15% in our administration. it's gone up on his watch. >> it went down much more in ours. >> mr. president, you're -- >> every record in the book. >> mr. president, you're going to be very happy because we're now going to talk about law and order. >> democrat-run cities. >> there has been a dramatic increase in homicide in america this summer particularly and you often blame that on democratic mayors and democratic governors but in fact there have been equivalent spikes in republican-led cities like tulsa and ft. worth. so the question is, is this really a party issue? >> i think it's a party issue. you can bring in a couple of examples. but if you look at chicago, what's going on in chicago, where 53 people were shot and

eight died. shot. if you look at new york, where it's going up like nobody's ever seen anything, the numbers are going up 100, 150, 200% crime. >> republican cities. >> and he doesn't want to say law and order because he can't because he'll lose his radical left supporters and once he does that it's over with. but if he ever got to run this country and they ran it the way he would want to run it -- >> we would run it in a way -- >> by the way, our suburbs would be gonna and you would see -- >> he wouldn't know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn. >> oh, i know suburbs. >> i was raised in the suburbs. this is not 1950. all these dog whistles and racism doesn't work anymore. suburbs are by and large integrated. there's many people today driving their kids to soccer practice and/or to -- black and white and hispanic in the same car as there have been at any time in the past. what really is a threat to the suburbs and their safety is his failure to deal with covid.

they're dying in the suburbs. his failure to deal with the environment. they're being flooded, they're being burned out because of his refusal to do anything. that's why the suburbs are in trouble. >> i do want to talk about this issue of law and order, though. in the joint recommendation that came from the biden/bernie sanders task force, you talked about, quote, reimagining policing. first of all, what is reimagining policing mean and do you support -- >> it means -- >> if i might finish the question -- what does reimagining policing mean and do you support the black lives matter call for community control of policing? >> look, what i support is the police having the opportunity to deal with the problems they face. and i'm totally opposed to defunding the police officers. as a matter of fact, police -- local police, the only one defunding, and his budget calls law enforcement assistance.

they need more assistance. when they show up for a 911 call, they need someone with them as a psychologist or psychiatrist to keep them from using force and help them talk it down. they are needed to help officers known in the community. crime didn't go up, it went down. >> that's not what he's talking about, chris. he's talking about defunding the police. >> that is not true. >> he has no law enforcement support. >> that's not true. look -- >> who do you have? name one group that supports you. name one group that came out and supported you. go ahead. think. we have time. >> we don't have time to do anything -- >> name one law enforcement group -- >> folks -- >> gentlemen, i think i'm going to take back the moderator's role and i want to get to another subject which is the subject of protests. in many cities that have turned violent, in portland, oregon,

especially, we had more than 100 straight days of protests which i think you would agree, you talk about peaceful protests, many of those turned into riots. mr. vice president, you say that people who commit crimes should be held accountable. the question i have, though, is as the democratic nominee, and earlier tonight you said you are the democratic party right now, have you ever called the democratic mayor of portland or the democratic governor of oregon and said, hey, you've got to stop this, bring in the national guard, do whatever it takes, but stop the days and months of violence in portland? >> i don't hold public office now. i am a former vice president. i've made it clear, i've made it clear in my public statements, that the violence should be prosecuted. it should be prosecuted. anyone who commits it -- >> but you've never called for -- excuse me, sir. you have never called for the leaders in portland and in oregon to bring in the national

guard and knock off 100 days of riots. >> they can in fact take care of it if he would just stay out of the way. >> oh, really? oh, really? >> wait a minute. i asked him a question. >> the young man in the middle of the street, they shot him. >> president trump. president trump. >> and the u.s. marshals took care of business. >> go ahead, sir. >> and by the way, his own former spokesperson said, you know, riots and chaos and violence help his cause. that's what this is all about. >> i don't know who said that. >> i do. >> who? >> kellyanne conway. >> i don't think she said that. >> she said it. here is the point. that's why he keeps trying to rile things up. he doesn't want to calm things down. instead of going in and talking to people and saying, let's get everybody together, figure out how to deal with this, what's he do? he just pureours gasoline on th fire, every single time.

>> i'll give you a minute to answer, sir. you have repeatedly -- >> wait a minute, i have to answer his statement. >> you have repeatedly -- no. you've been talking back and forth. if you want to switch seats, sir, we can do that. >> if i sent in the national guard, it would be over, but they don't want to accept the national guard. >> you have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out anti tivtifa and other left win extremist groups but are you willing to condemn tonight white supremacist and militia groups and say they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in kenosha and as we've seen in portland? are you prepared to specifically -- >> i would say almost everything i see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. >> what are you saying? >> i'm willing to do anything -- i want to see peace. >> then do it, sir. >> say it. >> what do you want to call them?

give me a name. >> white supremacists. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. but i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem. >> his own fbi director said antifa is an idea, not an organization. that's his fbi who said it. >> we're done, sir. we're moving on to the next -- >> that is your -- seniors everybody in your administration tells you the truth, it's a bad idea. you have no idea. >> antifa, antifa is a dangerous radical group. >> gentlemen, we're now moving on to -- >> they'll overthrow you. >> i'm going to ask a question. when the president seeks a second term, it is generally a referendum on his record. but vice president biden, you like to quote one of your dad's sayings, which is, don't compare

me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. and in this case, sir, you are the alternative. looking at both of your records, i'm going to ask each of you, why should voters elect you president over your opponent? in this segment, president trump, you go first, two minutes. >> because there has never been an administration or president what has done more than i've done in a period of 3 1/2 years and that's despite the impeachment hoax and you saw what happened today with hillary clinton where it was a whole big con job but despite going through all of these things, i had to fight both flanks and behind me and above, there has never been an administration that's done what i've done. the greatest -- before covid came in, the greatest economy in history, the lowest unemployment numbers. everything was good. everything was going -- and by the way, there was unity going to happen. people were calling me for the first time in years they were calling and saying, it's time maybe, and then what happened, we got hit but now we're

building it back up again. rebuilding of the military, including space force and all of the other things. a fixing of the -- the va, which was a mess under him. 308,000 people died because they didn't have proper health care. it was a mess. and we've now got a 91% approval rating at the va, our vets. we take care of our vets. but we've rebuilt our military. the job that we've done -- and i'll tell you something, some people say maybe the most important, by the end of the first term i'll have approximately 300 federal judges and court of appeals judges, 300, and hopefully three great supreme court justices. that is a record the likes of which very few people -- and you know one of the reasons i'll have so many judges? because president obama and him left me 128 judges to fill. when you leave office, you don't leave any judges. that's like you just don't do that. they left 128 openings and if i

were a member of his party, because they have a little different philosophy, i would say, if you left us 128 openings, you can't be a good president, you can't be a good vice president. but i want to thank you because it gives us almost -- it will probably be above that number by the end of this term, 300 judges. it's a record. >> looking at both your records, why should voters elect you president as opposed to president trump? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> under this president we've become weaker, sicker, poorer, more divided, and more violent. when i was vice president, we inherited a recession. i was asked to fix it. i did. we left him a booming economy. and he caused a recession. with regard to being weaker, the fact is that i've gone head to head with putin and made it clear to him we're not going to take any of his stuff. he's putin's puppy. he still refuses to even say anything to putin about the

buoya bounty on the heads of american soldiers. >> your son -- >> no. mr. president, wait a minute. your campaign agreed that both sides would get two-minute answers uninterrupted. your side agreed to it. and why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule, okay, sir? >> he never keeps his word. >> that was a rhetorical question. >> can i have back 30 seconds? >> yes, you may have. go ahead. >> so thirdly, we're poorer. the billionaires have gotten much more wealthy by a tune of over 3 to $400 billion more just since covid. you at home, you got less. you're in more trouble than you were before. in terms of being more violent, when we were in office, there were 50% less violence in america than there is today. he's president of the united states. it's on his watch. and with regard to more divided, the nation can't stay divided. we can't be this way.

and speaking of my son, the way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being -- and just being suckers, my son was in iraq. he spent a year there. he got the bronze star. he got conspicuous service medal. he was not a loser. he was a patriot. and the people left behind there were heroes. >> really? >> and i resent -- i'm talking about my son beau biden. >> i don't know about beau. i know about hunter. he was thrown out, dishonorably discharged. >> that's not true. >> for cocaine use. he didn't have a job until you became vice president. >> none that have is true. >> he made a fortune in ukraine and moscow and various other places. >> that is not true. my son -- my son, like a lot of people, like a lot of people you know at home, had a drug problem.

he's overtaken it. he's fixed it. he's worked on it and i'm proud of him. i'm proud of my son. >> why was he given tens of millions of dollars? >> he wasn't given tens of millions of dollars. that's been totally discredited. >> we've been already through this. i think the american people would rather hear about more substantial -- >> so do i. >> as the moderator, sir, i'm going to make a judgment call here. >> $3.5 million. >> that is not true. that report is totally discredited. mitt romney on that committee said it wasn't worth taxpayers' mo it was written for political reasons. >> i would like to talk about climate change. >> so would i. >> okay. the forest fires in the west are raging now. they have burned millions of acres. they have displaced hundreds of thousands of people. when state officials there blame the fires on climate change, mr. president, you said, "i don't think the science knows." over your four years, you have pulled the u.s. out of the paris

climate accord. you have rolled back a number of obama environmental records. what do you believe about the science of climate change and what will you do in the next four years to confront it? >> i want crystal clean water and air. i want beautiful clean air. we have now the lowest carbon. if you look at our numbers right now, we are doing phenomenally. but i haven't destroyed our businesses. our businesses aren't put out of commission. if you look at the paris accord, it was a disaster from our standpoint. and people are actually very happy about what's going on, because our businesses are doing well. as far as the fires are concerned, you need forest management. in addition to everything else. the forest floors are loaded up with trees, dead trees that are years old and they're like tinder. and leaves and everything else. you drop a cigarette in there, the whole forest burns down. you've got to have forest management. >> what do you believe about the science of climate change, sir?

>> i believe that we have to do everything we can to have immaculate air, immaculate water, and do whatever else we can that's good. you know, we're planting a billion trees, the billion tree project, and it's very exciting. >> do you believe that human pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, contributes to the global warming of this planet? >> i think a lot of things do. i think to an extent, yes. we have to do better management of our forests. every year i get the call, california is burning. california is burning. if you had forest management, good forest management, you wouldn't be getting those calls. you know, in europe they live their forest cities, they're called forest cities, they maintain their forests, they manage their forests. i was with the head of a major country. it's a forest city. he said, sir, we have trees that are far more -- they ignite much easier than california. there shouldn't be that problem. i spoke with the governor about it.

i'm getting along very well with the governor. i said at some point you can't every year have hundreds of thousands of acres of land just burned to the ground. >> but sir -- >> it's burning down because of a lack of management. >> sir, if you believe in the science of climate change, why have you rolled back the obama clean power plan which limited carbon emissions in power plants? why have you relaxed -- >> because it was driving energy prices through the sky. >> why have you relaxed fuel economy standards that going to create more pollution from cars and trucks? >> not really, because what's happening is the car is much less expensive and it's a much safer car and you're talking about a tiny difference and then what would happen, because of the cost of the car, you would have at least double and triple the number of cars purchased. we have the old slugs out there that are ten, 12 years old. if you did that, the car would be safer. it would be much cheaper. >> but in california they simply -- >> they'll take a lot of cars off the market because people will be able to afford a car.

and by the way, we're going to see how that turns out. a lot of people agree with me, many people. the car has gotten so expensive because they have computers all over the place for an extra little bit of gasoline. and. >> -- that's not -- >> i'm okay with electric cars too, i've given big incentives for electric cars. what they've done in california is just crazy. >> vice president biden, i would like you to respond to the president's climate change record. but i also want to ask you about a concern, you proposed $2 trillion in green jobs. you talk about new limits, not abolishing but new limits on fracking, ending the use of fossil fuels to generate electricity by 2035, and zero net emission of greenhouse gases by 2050. the president says a lot of these things would tank the economy and cost millions of jobs. >> he's absolutely wrong, number one. number two, if in fact, during our administration, the recovery act, i was able to bring down

the cost of renewable emergency to cheaper than our as cheap as coal and gas and oil. nobody's going to build another coal-fired plant in america. no one's going to build another oil fired plant in america. they're going to move to renewable energy, number one. number two, we're going to make sure we're able to take the federal fleet and turn it into a fleet that's run on their electric vehicles, making sure that we can do that, we're going to put 500,000 charging stations on all the highways we're building in the future. we'll build an economy that in fact is going to provide for the ability for us to take 4 million buildings and make sure that they in fact are weatherized in a way that in fact they'll emit significantly less gas and oil because the heat will not be going out. there's so many things that we can do now to create thousands and thousands of jobs. we can get to net zero in terms of energy production by 2035.

not only not costing people jobs, creating jobs. creating millions of good-paying jobs, not 15 bucks an hour, but prevailing wage, by having a new infrastructure that in fact is green. and the first thing i will do, i will rejoin the paris accord. i will join the paris accord because with us out of it, look what's happening, it's all falling apart. talk about someone who has no relationship with foreign policy. the rainforests of brzezinsazil being ripped down. instead of doing something about that, i would be gathering up and making sure we had the countries of the world coming up with $20 billion and saying, here's $20 billion, stop -- stop tearing down the forests. and if you don't, then you're going to have significant economic consequences. >> what about the argument president trump basically says

that you have to balance environmental interests and economic interests and he's drawn his line. >> he hasn't drawn a line. he still, for example, he wants to make sure that methane is not a problem, you can now emit methane without being a problem. methane. this is a guy who says you don't have to have mileage standards for automobiles that exist now. this is a guy who says -- the fact is, it's all true, and here's the deal. >> he's talking about the green new deal and it's not $2 billion or $20 billion saucas you said. it's $100 trillion where they want to rip down buildings and rebuild the buildings. that's the dumbest, most ridiculous -- where airplanes are out of business, two-car systems are out, they want to take out the cows. >> not true. >> this is a $100 trillion -- that's more money -- >> look. >> -- than our country could make in a hundred years. >> that's the simply not the case. let me explain.

>> wait a minute, sir. i actually have studied your plan. and it includes upgrading 4 million buildings, weatherizing 2 million homes over four years, building 1.5 million energy efficient homes. so the question becomes, the president is saying, i think some people who support the president would say, that sounds like it's going to cost a lot of money and hurt the economy. >> what it's going to do is create thousands and millions of jobs, good-paying jobs. >> let him finish, sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> $100 billion. >> the fact is it's going to create millions of good paying jobs and these tax incentives for people to weatherize which he wants to get rid of, it's going to make the economy much safer. look how much we're paying now to deal with the hurricanes, to deal with -- by the way, he has an answer for hurricanes, he said maybe we should drop a nuclear weapon on them. >> i never said that at all. you made it up. >> here's the deal. we're going to be in a position

where we can create hard, hard, good jobs by making sure the environment is clean and we all are in better shape. we spend billions of dollars now, billions of dollars on floods, hurricanes, rising seas. we're in real trouble. look what's happened just in the midwest with these storms that come through and wipe out entire sections and counties in iowa. that didn't happen before. because of global warming, we make up 15% of the world's problem. we in fact -- but the rest of the world, we've got to get them to come along. that's why we have to get back into, back into the paris accord. >> gentlemen -- >> wait a minute, chris. so why didn't he do it for 47 years? why didn't you get the world -- china sends up real dirt into the air, russia does, india does, they all do. we're supposed to be good. and by the way, he made a couple of statements, the green new deal is $100 trillion. >> that is not my plan.

the green new deal is not my plan. if he knew anything about -- >> he said i said something about the military. he and his friends made it up and then they went with it. i never said it. >> that is not true. >> we're done with this segment. >> he called the military stupid bastards. he said it on tape. he said stupid bastards. >> please, sir, stop. >> play it. >> go ahead. mr. vice president. answer his final question. >> the final question is, i can't remember which of all of his rantings was the final question. >> i'm having a little trouble myself. about the economy and about this question of what it's going to cost. >> the economy. >> the green new deal and the idea of what your environmental proposal will do. >> the green new deal will pay for itself as we move forward. we're not going to build plants that in fact are great polluting plants. >> are you going to support the green new deal? >> no, i don't support the green

new deal. >> that's a big statement. >> i support the biden plan that i put forward. >> okay. >> the biden plan, which is different than what he calls the radical green new deal. >> all right, gentlemen, final segment. election integrity. as we meet tonight, millions of americans are receiving mail-in ballots or going to vote early. how confident should we be that this will be a fair election and what are you prepared to do over the next five plus weeks, because it will not only be to election day but it will also, counting some ballots, mail-in ballots after election day. what are you prepared to do to reassure the american people that the next president will be the legitimate winner of this electi election? in this final segment, mr. vice president, you go first. >> go to iwillvote.com, people should decide how they'll vote and what means they're going to

vote. his own homeland security director as well as fbi director say there's no evidence at all that mail-in ballots are the source of manipulation and cheating. they said that. the fact is there will be millions of people because of covid who will be voting by mail-in ballots, like he does, by the way, he sits behind the resolute desk and sends his ballot to florida, number one. number two, we'll make sure that those people who want to vote in person are able to vote because there are poll watchers there to make sure they can socially distance. the polls are open on time and the polls will stay open until the votes are counselted. this is all about trying to dissuade people from voting because he's trying to scare people into thinking it's not going to be legitimate. show up and vote. you will determine the outcome of this election. vote, vote, vote. if you're able to vote early in your state, vote early. if you're able to vote in person, vote in person. vote whatever way is the best way for you. because you will -- he cannot stop you from being able to

determine the outcome of this election. and in terms of whether or not, when the votes are counted and they're all counted, that will be accepted. if i win, that will be accepted. if i lose, that will be accepted. but by the way, if in fact he says he's not sure what he's going to accept, let me tell you something, it doesn't matter. because if we get the votes, it's going to be all over. he's going to go. he can't stay in power. it won't happen. it won't happen. so vote. just make sure you understand, you have it in your control to determine what this country is going to look like the next four years. is it going to change, or are you going to get four more years of these lies? >> mr. president, two minutes. >> so when i listen to joe talking about a transition, there's been no transition from when i won. i won that election. and if you look at crooked hillary clinton, if you look at all the different people, there was no transition, because they came after me trying to do a coup. they came after me spying on my campaign. they started from the day i won

and even before i won, from the day i came down the escalator with our first lady, they were a disaster, they were a disgrace to our country and we've caught 'em, we've caught 'em all, we've got it all on tape, we've caught 'em all. you gave the idea for the logan act against general flynn. you better take a look at that, because we caught you, in a sense. president obama was sitting in the office, he knew about it too so don't tell me about a free transition. as far as the ballots are concerned, it's a disaster. a solicited ballot, okay, solicited, is okay. you're soliciting, they're asking, they send it back, you send it back. they're sending millions of ballots all over the country. there's fraud. they found them in creatieks. they found some that happened to have the name trump in a waste paper basket. they're spending them all over the place. they're sending a thousand ballots, everybody got two

ballots. this is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. it's nice, on november 3, you're watching, and i think we'll do really well because people are happy with the job we've done, but you know what, we might not know for months because these ballots are going to be all over. take a look at what happened in manhattan. looked at what happened in new jersey. looked at what happened in virginia and other places. they're not losing 2%, 1%, which by the way is too much, an election could be one or lot stf that. they're losing 30 or 40%. it's a shame. you can imagine they say, you have to have your ballot in by november 10. november 10. that means that's seven days after the election. we have -- >> sir. >> all run by democrats. >> president trump. >> all run by democrats. it's a rigged election. >> president trump, you'll be able to continue. you have been charging for months that mail-in balloting is going to be a disaster, you say it's rigged, you say it's going to lead to fraud.

but in 2018, in the last midterm election, 31 million people voted mail-in voting. that was a quarter, more than a quarter of all the voters that year cast their ballots by mail. now that millions of mail-in ballots have gone out, what are you going to do about it, and are you counting on the supreme court, including a justice barrett, to settle any disputes? >> yeah, i think i'm counting on them to look at the ballots, definitely. i hope we don't need them in terms of the election itself. but for the ballots, i think so. because what's happening is incredible. i just heard, i read today, where at least 1% of the ballots for 2016 were invalidated. they take them, we don't like them, we don't like them, they throw them out. >> there are millions of ballots going out right now. >> you do a solicited ballot, that's okay. >> i'm asking you about the fact that -- >> you go and vote. you go and vote. >> i'm saying what do you do

about the fact that millions of people -- >> you either do, chris, a solicited ballot, they're sending it in, you're sending them back. they have mail men with lots of -- do you see what's going on? take a look at west virginia, mail men selling the ballots. they're being sold, they're being dumped in rivers. >> there is no evidence of that. there is no evidence of that. >> vice president biden. >> 35 states had mail-in -- five states had mail-in ballots for the last decade or more and you don't have to solicit the ballot, it's sent to you, it's sent to your home. they're saying it has to be a postmark by the time, by election day. if it doesn't get in until the 7th, 8th, 9th, it still should be counted. he's just afraid of counting the votes because -- >> you're wrong. >> i want to continue with you on this, vice president biden. >> he's so wrong when he makes a statement like that. >> excuse me. vice president biden, the biggest problem in fact over the

years with mail-in voting has not been fraud, historically. it has been that sizable numbers, sometimes hundreds of thousands of ballots are thrown out because they have not been properly filled out or there is some other irregularity or they've missed the deadline. the question i have is, are you concerned that the supreme court with a justice barrett will settle any dispute? >> i am concerned that any court would settle this, because here's the deal. when you file, when you get a ballot and you fill it out, you're supposed to have an affidavit. you have someone say this is me. you should be able to, if in fact you can verify that's you before the ballot is thrown out, that's sufficient to be able to count the ballots, because someone made a mistake and not dotting the correct "i." who they voted for, testify, say who they voted for, say it's you, that is totally legitimate. >> all right.

>> you have 80 million ballots. >> excuse me. >> you know it can't be done. you know it can't. and already there's been fraud. >> 185 billion pieces of mail a day. >> we can keep talking. in eight states, election workers are prohibited currently by law, eight states, from even beginning to process ballots, even take them out of the envelopes and flatten them, until election day. that means that it's likely, because there's going to be a huge increase in mail-in balloting, that we are not going to on election night who the winner is, that it could be days, it could be weeks. >> could be months. >> until we find out who the new president is. so first for you, sir, finally, for the vice president, i hope neither of you will interrupt the other, will you urge your supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil unrest, and will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until

the election has been independently certified? president trump, you go first. >> i am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen. i am urging them to do it. as you know, today there was a big problem. in philadelphia they went in to watch. they're called poll watchers, a very safe, very nice thing. they were thrown out. they weren't allowed to watch. you know why? because bad things happen in philadelphia. bad things. and i am urging -- i am urging my people -- i hope it's going to be a fair election. if it's a fair election -- >> you are urging them what? >> i am 100% on board. if i see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated -- >> does that mean you'll urge your supporters to take to the streets? >> these people aren't equipped to handle it. number two, they cheat. they cheat. they found ballots into waste

paper basket, they were military ballots, they all had the name trump on them. do you think that's good? >> vice president biden, final question for you. will you urge your supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted and will you pledge not to declare victory until the election is independently certified? >> yes. here's the deal. as you point out, some of the ballots in some states can't even be opened until election day. if there's thousands of ballots, it's going to take time to do it. by the way, our military, they've been voting by ballots since the end of the civil war, in effect. and that's what's going to happen. why was it not -- why is it for them somehow not fraudulent? it's the same process. it's honest. no one has established at all that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots, that somehow it's a fraudulent process. >> it's already been established. take a look at carolyn maloney's race.

>> you had an opportunity to respond. vice president biden, go ahead. >> he has no idea what he's talking about. the fact is i'll accept it and he will too, you know why? once the winner is declared after all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that will be the end of it. that will be the end of it. and if it's me, in fact, fine. if it's not me, i'll support the outcome. and i'll be a president not just for the democrats, i'll be a president for democrats and republicans. and this guy is in fact -- >> gentlemen, when you say that's the end of it, this is the end of the debate. >> i want an honest ballot count. >> we're going to be leave it there, to be continued in more debates as we go on. president trump, vice president biden, it's been an interesting hour and a half, i want to thank you both for participating in the first of three debates that you have agreed to engage in. we want to thank case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic for hosting this event. the next debate sponsored by the commission on presidential

debates will be one week from tomorrow, october 7, at the university of utah in salt lake city. the two vice presidential nominees, vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris will debate at 9:00 peop.m. eastern. we hope you watch. until then, thank you and good night. [ applause ] >> if hearing that this debate is over was music to your ears, you may not be alone. what could have been a low point in american political discourse, certainly in any modern debate we've seen, just took place over an hour and a half. if you showed up looking for a food fight you got a brawl between these two men, language we've rarely heard from candidates in a political debate. name calling that went to a new level. frankly, savannah guthrie, i'm at a bit of a loss for words here to describe what we've just witnessed. >> maybe because i think like so many in this country just

watching this, your jaw just drops, you can't pretend this was a normal debate, a normal example of american democracy at work, a normal tussle between foes. this was different. this was an all-out grudge match. it was undignified at many times. it was cringeworthy at many times. and as i turn to chuck, we can't pretend -- i go to you, chuck, with my normal political analysis question, because i think we need to pause for a moment and say, that was crazy. what was that? >> it was a train wreck. but it was a train wreck of the making of one person. we know who did it. president trump did this. and no place ways it's the only way he knows what to do. he bulldozed over the moderator, bulldozed over chris wallace, bulldozed and at times flustered joe biden. but i don't know if anybody wouldn't have been flustered by the president's behavior and the president's performance.

it is, it was a pure train wreck. i don't know how that helped anybody. if you were watching this as an undecided voter, i don't know if it helped at all. i don't know what you learned. >> did you stay on the channel? i got a lot of texts from people saying, i turned it off. >> yeah, i've gotten a lot of those comments too, from true outsiders and from friends and family, a lot of people seemed to turn this one off. again, i'm trying to figure out, and i'm trying to find, okay, did this politically help anybody. i will say this. joe biden's campaign has been trying to make the case essentially that president trump is a fraud, a bully, and has in no plans. that is one thing that seemed to get through, i think at times, and certainly president trump played the role of the bully quite well. the trump campaign has been trying to paint joe biden as out of it and captive of the left. i think his folks are going to

think that the president scored some points here or there. but, you know, i'm looking at it, i think a lot of people are going to look at this and feel perhaps a tad empathetic for anybody that had to participate in this. >> let me go to andrea mitchell right now. andrea, many of the things that we talked about in the last couple of days came true in terms of the president's strategy to try to get under joe biden's skin. he went after his son hunter on a number of occasions, including when vice president biden was talking about his son beau who had died honorably serving as a soldier. >> true. but this was such a hot mess. you can fault joe biden perhaps for letting the president get him rattled and for not drilling down on the tax issue and other issues. but frankly the format, and that, you have to fault the moderate and her the way the

confession were posed once president trump was rolling over them and bulldozing them, because they didn't talk about covid nearly as much as race and violence and protests. i mean, it was really, really in the ballpark of the president, because he kept bringing things back to that issue and not letting joe biden answer a question. so by blowing it all up and running roughshod over everyone else, he didn't let joe biden make the points that he was prepared to make until perhaps the last half hour, last hour, perhaps, 45 minutes, where biden seemed to regain his footing. and the contrast was clear, but i've been watching debates, covering debates since 1976, i've never seen anything like this. i don't think any of us have. compare it to any debate in presidential history. this was a disgrace, frankly. and the president just did not observe any of the format that his own campaign had agreed to. so i'm not sure what joe biden could have done other than

trying to get a word in and trying to answer the questions that were asked. >> let me go to hallie jackson at the debate hall. a couple of things here. the maxim inside trump world is let trump be trump. he definitely was trump but even kind of a super sized version of himself. so whether or not that was part of the strategy, i would like to hear you on whether or not the campaign was going in there with that motivation. and biden, on the other hand, he did have his opportunities. did he make the most of them or did he lose opportunities? >> a couple of things on that, savannah. when you talk about the idea of the president's strategy going into this and the idea of letting trump be trump, as is so often said, listen, the campaign, sources close to the preparations here, had said they wanted to see the president go on attack. that was part of what they were coming into this with. obviously that happened. that was an incredibly aggressive donald trump on stage tonight. he went after, as expected, hunter biden multiple times. of course the president's son.

you talk about, savannah, vice president biden being on defense to that degree, because of the nature of the interruptions, frankly, from the president, it seemed like it was difficult for joe biden to be able to push back in any subjective wstantivn the president was rat-a-tat-tat with these attacks repeatedly, over and over again, on hunter biden. i can tell you there is already appreciation from people in trump world for those hunter biden attacks. that's something you'll be hearing over the next 24, 48 hours and beyond. there are moments that people who support president trump are seizing on to say, listen, he was on his game, he had energy, is the thinking here, he came out and attacked. on the other hand it is notable, when we talk about the substance of this debate, a couple of points, and things that the president simply did not say. it cannot go unnoticed that joe biden, the former vice president, directly called president trump a racist. president trump did not respond to that. the president was directly asked

to denounce white supremacy and the proud boys. the president said "stand back and stand by" which is not a denunciation. the president was directly asked to urge calm to her supporters ahead of election day. president trump did not do that. substantively those are some things you'll be hearing over the next couple of days. inside this debate haull, i've been to other debates, this is different for a lot of reasons, notably covid precautions and awe much smaller audience. it was a more intimate hall feeling and it made it jarring to see what went on on the stage go down, as someone in the room here. >> rich lowry, editor of "the national review," claire mccaskill, former democratic senator from missouri, both nbc news political contributors. senator, let me first talk to you about, there's a lot of focus, obviously, on what donald trump did and his performance. but isolate, if you can, joe biden, his reaction to it, his

losing his temper at times. how much does that hurt him? >> listen, anybody who tries to characterize this debate as somehow equivalent in terms of the behavior of those two candidates is not being fair to joe biden. donald trump was a bully, he was nonpresidential, he was frankly outrageous. it was sad to watch it as an american. he's the president of the united states. and he behaved like a 12th grader. it was terrible. and joe biden, i think, showed presidential self-control. now, did he tell him to be quiet a couple of times? frankly, you know, i was watching, i would have throttled the guy. and chris wallace, i mean, i know it must be hard to control it, but he really got run over by donald trump's outrageous behavior on that stage tonight. now, will it hurt donald trump politically? i'm not sure it will, with his

supporters. but i guarantee you, it won't help him with those women in the suburbs. it will not help him. >> that was the question i wanted to ask rich lowry who of course is the editor of the conservative "national review." i mean, look, if you are a donald trump supporter, this was a great night for you, you loved this guy. but what about those undecided voters, what about suburban women, what about people who were on the fence? do you feel that aggressive performance was a good look for donald trump? >> well, i think the whole night was dispiriting. i wouldn't be surprised if there's not another debate in the presidential cycle and the presidential debate commission has to consider whether to cut off the mics if a person is going beyond their time. this is trump's nature, this is the way he is. he flustered biden at times, the "shut up, man" at times from joe

biden wasn't great. more importantly, he didn't buckle, he stood there for 90 minutes, took it, and gave as good as he got. and with trump i think the problem is, especially with hunter biden, some of the points he was trying to make didn't land that well because of his own jagged style and his own overinterrupting. so i agree with claire, i'm not sure it hurts him, but if someone is unsettled by the way he's conducted himself as president but is on the fence about him, are they going to look at this performance and say, that's my guy? unlikely. so it's probably a status quo debate but it's trump that needs the trajectory of this race changed. >> rich, thank you. we're going to take a quick break and be back with more on tonight's debate in just a ♪ ♪ ♪

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welcome back to our continuing coverage of the post debate analysis. i'll be hosting an nbc news town hall with democratic nominee joe biden on monday, next monday, from miami at 8:00/7:00 central time. we hope you will join us then. savannah? >> all right. as i turn to kasie hunt, our capitol hill correspondent, debates are this kind of cherished ritual of our democracy. in a presidential campaign, a lot of folks remember watching

them as little kids. can you imagine how you would feel if you were a mom or dad with your kids watching that debacle tonight? i'm wondering what you're hearing from your sources on the hill and in the campaign. is there a chance either one or both of the campaigns says, forget it, we're not doing any more debates? there are two more debates scheduled, one vice presidential debate scheduled. >> first of all, i'm grateful my son was too young to watch that. very different from the ones i remember watching as a child which made me want to be involved in the political process in the first place. there are certainly sources in both parties currently suggest to go ing to me that perhaps it's joe biden at this point who should not participate in future debates. as we were negotiating this process, there were a lot of concerns whether president trump was going to show up and a lot of the ways this was negotiated, including moderator choices,

seemed to suggest it was oriented at him. but now i've got more than one source saying, maybe joe biden doesn't benefit very much from coming back out onto a stage like this, savannah. i can't vote because i am a minor. what do i know? i'm just a kid. our generation's too young to vote. i was one year off. kind of gets me mad a little bit. the pressure for my generation to address the climate crisis is growing. we can't ignore the climate. it's really bad. i would say, to the older generation we're living on this planet longer than they will be (hopefully). so please please please please vote for me. i'm daylan... i'm gideon... i'm amelia and i approve this message. ♪

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chuck todd, final thoughts. >> nothing else has changed the trajectory of this race and even though we'll all hand-wring about this debate tonight, i doubt this will change things much either. >> all right. >> there are more debates to come. next wednesday, vice presidential candidates mike pence and kamala harris face off in salt lake city. then on october 15, the second presidential debate. >> you may not be ready for more but more is coming. a week later, the third and final debate moderated by our own kristen welker. everybody, i'll see you tomorrow morning on "today." until then, good night from all of us at nbc news. thanks for being with us. .

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