weather >> good evening. within hours of the rwanda bill passing, five migrants die in the english channel. and yet the french navy continue to escort the boat over . it really beggars belief. rishi sunak in poland today tells us that defence spending will increase to 2.5% of gdp. all of which rather proves my point of last night that an early general election is now favourite, and the british medical association warns that more doctors will go abroad . more doctors will go abroad. lord. but surely if we're spending huge amounts of public money training doctors, surgeons, consultants, shouldn't they actually be made to stay in this country indentured for a few years? i'll debate that with some doctors who may disagree .

some doctors who may disagree. but first, let's get the news with ray allison . with ray allison. >> thanks, nigel. good evening. our top stories tonight. the prime minister has announced plans to increase defence spending to 2.5% of gdp by 2030. dufing spending to 2.5% of gdp by 2030. during a trip to poland, rishi sunak said the budget will reach £87 billion by the end of the decade. addressing troops in a military hangar, he also said the uk defence industry will be put on a war footing. mr sunak described the plans as the biggest strengthening of our national defence in a generation. >> as churchill said in 1934, to urge the preparation of defence is not to insert the imminence of war. on the contrary, if war was imminent, preparations for defence would be too late. i believe we must do more to defend our country, our interests and our values. so

today i'm announcing the biggest strengthening of our national defence. for a generation . we defence. for a generation. we will increase defence spending to a new baseline of 2.5% of gdp by 2030. >> well, that announcement comes as rishi sunak warned that president putin will not stop at the polish border if his assault on ukraine is allowed to continue. earlier, britain pledged its largest ever package of aid for kyiv, worth £500 million during the warsaw trip. the pm is holding talks with the leaders of poland, germany and nato, warning that the defence of ukraine is essential to our joint security. ukraine's president zelenskyy has welcomed the package, which includes long—range missiles, armoured vehicles and boats . well, on the vehicles and boats. well, on the day that five channel migrants died off the french coast, including a four year old child, six gb news can reveal that more than 250 others have crossed to the uk on a small boat, got into

difficulties off wimereux beach near boulogne, before 2 am. a number of other migrants were rescued, with at least one now critically ill in hospital . five critically ill in hospital. five other small boats have now been received by border force and dover lifeboat, with migrants transported to the processing centre in dover harbour . a centre in dover harbour. a further two boats were seen heading towards uk waters . heading towards uk waters. police were faced with violence at the saint george's day event in whitehall this afternoon, when a group tried to force its way through a cordon mounted officers on horses needed to intervene when the group broke through a police barrier. the force earlier said it expected some, quote, far right groups and groups linked to football clubs, end quote, to attend that event. clubs, end quote, to attend that event . police say six people event. police say six people have been arrested . for the have been arrested. for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now it's

. nigel. >> well, it all concluded at about midnight last night. the rwanda bill finally has gone through. the game of ping pong is over . through. the game of ping pong is over. it'll head on for royal assent. it will become law fairly shortly, but literally within hours of that passing, there was a very dramatic, tragic incident that took place just off wimereux beach next to boulogne. and mark white, gb news home and security editor, has the full story of the day . has the full story of the day. >> nigel. good evening. this incident unfolded about 5 am. local time when a boat, very overcrowded, was pushed off from the beach. now five people drowned in that incident, we're told. three men, a woman and a young girl. we are also told that french investigators now

investigating the possibility that a group of migrants from africa who ran towards that boat, who tried to clamber aboard and force their way onto that boat, may have contributed to this boat being vastly overcrowded. we heard figures of about 112 people on this boat. i've never known even though the boats have got bigger over the years. nigel, i've never known them to have 112 people on a single boat. it was clearly in a very precarious position. it had gone off. apparently it had grounded on a sandbank for a while, then moved off some of the migrants fell off into the water, but the boat continued on its way. remarkably the french authorities went up, offered, of course, to rescue those who were still on the boat. half of them refused. about 50 odd did get onto the french boat and were returned to france, but 55

continued on that journey. we've got exclusive footage from the middle of the channel showing that boat as it continued on its journey towards uk waters, eventually reaching uk waters where, of course, as is routine now, it was picked up. this time it was by the dover lifeboat and those 55 people were taken to dover harbour. we also filmed nigel as the police from kent constabulary were on the harbour quayside there, waiting for those migrants to get off that boat. and they were very methodically 40 graphing and searching and questioning those coming off that boat because , as coming off that boat because, as i say, one of the key lines of this investigation now is that a group of african migrants, we believe , ran towards this boat believe, ran towards this boat as it was trying to get into the water and forced their way on board. it's a i mean, this is

become increasingly common. >> this is i say this is not uncommon now is it? you find the africans have no money and they try and jump onto these boats that have already been paid for, that have already been paid for, that are on their way out from the beach. and we saw a stabbing, of course, occur just a couple of weeks ago in very similar circumstances. mark, i think the thing that really stands out from this incident to me, obviously the sad loss of life that's now 14 people, i think, that have died that we know of so far in the channel. this year. what really stands out is that massively overcrowded boat getting stuck on a sandbank, which indicates it wasn't one of the more professional gangs because they would know their tides and know their sandbanks. but what really strikes me is five people overboard drown the french navy, come take other people off and still escort that boat effectively . the french navy are effectively. the french navy are working for the traffickers and they're taking that boat to british waters. at what point

politically do we say to the french, you have got to stop acting as agents of the traffickers ? traffickers? >> well, it's a point of huge contention. you're absolutely right, people present this as a new phenomenon that the french are escorting these vessels. but you and i know, having been out there, this has been happening for years now. the french say very publicly that the reason that they are doing this is because they do , or they have because they do, or they have tried to persuade migrants to get on board their boat and be returned to france. they have refused, threatened to jump in the water wherever the particular circumstances of the refusal was . and so the french refusal was. and so the french say, rather than cause an incident in which people could potentially lose their lives , potentially lose their lives, they stand off. they escort the boat until it reaches uk waters, when the migrants are happy, because of course, then they want to get on a uk border force

vessel or indeed a british lifeboat at that point. but it is, you're right, very contentious. here are the french really doing enough to intervene, to try to, persuade and push these boats back to shore ? well, it's clear that shore? well, it's clear that even though this boat was caught up in what was a terrible tragedy, 55 people were still determined to continue that journey to the uk. and they added to the 350 people, at least, who have made it across today in seven small boats. nigel >> mark white, thank you very much indeed for that full report of what happened in the english channel. as mark says, 350 have crossed today. wait for friday. it's flat calm. friday it'll be 500 on friday, i promise you. all of which makes me wonder at the £240 million we spent on rwanda already. if we do send 2 or 300, it'll be another 100 million plus. we're not going to get very good value for money out of rwanda. but will it work

at all? well, i'm joined by ivan sampson , immigration lawyer and sampson, immigration lawyer and friend of this program , ivan. friend of this program, ivan. under the legislation, there are now 52,000 people. in theory, that could be sent to rwanda, albeit rwanda will only take a couple of hundred for the first few months, maybe up to 8000 over the course of about six months. what was interesting today was the press reporting. obviously stories coming out of the government that we can start detaining people. where are we going to detain them ? how are we going to detain them? how are we going to detain them? how are we going to detain them, and how do we stop them from absconding? >> absolutely. i mean, the our prisons are overcrowded. we don't have capacity to such an extent that the courts are releasing prisoners early to make way for new, new prisoners to come in who come into the criminal justice system. so that's the question that the government haven't answered. and when they do detain them, then, what is the cost of that, to, to detain them ? there's going to be

detain them? there's going to be are they going to put them back in hotels? what they didn't want to do in the first place? >> if i'm told that i'm on the list to be sent to rwanda and i don't fancy the east african sunshine, what's to stop me absconding? just disappearing . absconding? just disappearing. >> indeed it is. what the government have said is they're going to select people who have limited or no rights of appeal. in their opinion. limited or no rights of appeal. in their opinion . so in their in their opinion. so in their opinion, in their opinion, and they've got supposedly vie, 250 judges ready to hear any judicial review applications and decide them fairly quickly . so decide them fairly quickly. so that's what the government's doing in regards to any interim measure applications. but if somebody does make an interim measure, an interim measure application to stop the removal, will the secretary of state invoke his right under the treaty to ignore that and breach his international duty? >> well, we've got two points here, haven't we? number one is echr. and would we? i mean, rishi says no foreign court will

tell us what to do. well, i think if he defied , the european think if he defied, the european court of human rights, he might find half his cabinet on the edge of resignation. but that's a political point. but the bit that really interests me, ivan, is that we with or without the court in strasbourg, we incorporated the european convention on human rights into british law in the human rights act 1998. and so i've been thinking , act 1998. and so i've been thinking, well, act 1998. and so i've been thinking , well, whatever the thinking, well, whatever the government says, people will be able to use , lawyers will be able to use, lawyers will be able to use, lawyers will be able to use, judges will judge on that human rights act. and yet in the rwanda bill, it says that the court should ignore key sections of the human rights act. and i think that's is that articles two and three. so explain to us how does this work? we have an act of parliament. does this act of parliament. does this act of parliament effectively, legally countermand the human rights act or doesn't it? or is that open to question? >> well, it is a contradiction here because what they've done is disapplied section two and three. so the domestic courts

can ignore both the decision and any case, previous case law of the european court of human rights. they can do that. but it's worse than that because what the government has done is not only said, we're not listening to foreign courts, they're not listening to their own supreme court. what they're saying is we're going to ignore the supreme court ruling which said this policy is unlawful. we want our mps to turn a blind eye to that determination of the supreme court based on what now, lord hope and good on him for tabling that amendment late yesterday, because what he said was they should provide reasons as to why they say that rwanda is safe and have a committed to decide each individual case that would have delayed things even more for the government. but the government don't have that evidence. all they have is a hunch that is going to work. now, what if when labour gets back into power, which is very likely. yeah, we'll have to bnng likely. yeah, we'll have to bring all these people back. what is the cost of that going to be? >> well, the cost of all of it's

enormous. but i want to get back to this point. enormous. but i want to get back to this point . you know, to this point. you know, somebody is about to be deported. maybe with very good reason. but a lawyer takes a case to a judge . they may go to case to a judge. they may go to the supreme court. does the supreme court rule in favour of the rwanda act or the human rights act, or is this something that we can't determine sitting here right now, it's a lacuna . here right now, it's a lacuna. >> human rights is what's called a universality law. that means no government can ignore the rights of individuals to inhumane and degrading treatment. the government have told the supreme court they could ignore that, even though they themselves decided that they themselves decided that they would be subjected . they would be subjected. >> but the supreme court may not take that. >> well, this is going to be interesting how the supreme court judges take that will decide this, because what the supreme court do has to apply the will of parliament. that is correct. however, there's a lacuna because they themselves

said it's not safe. their own judgement . they've been told to judgement. they've been told to ignore the human rights act, but will they ignore their own judgement? that's going to be interesting. wow. they will have to actually ignore the judgement they made . they made. >> this is going to be potentially a massive legal wrangle, isn't it? indeed which will go on for months and months and months. >> the constitutional crisis, that's what it is because. and the government's placed us in this position instead of doing what they should be doing , what they should be doing, removing people that are not genuine, deciding applications quickly and fairly, and limiting the number of applications we take every year. and instead of doing that. oh, and also dealing with the french . i heard your with the french. i heard your comments absolutely right. it is absolutely appalling that the french are actually signpost getting people to the uk. >> oh five dead. that's okay. we'll take the rest of you over. i can't believe that the french navy did that and we're paying them to do that a lot of money. this is going to be extraordinary. it all actually leads in to the point, folks i made last night that i think the idea that in 10 to 12 weeks

time, these planes will be taken off with regularity to rwanda is for the birds. off with regularity to rwanda is for the birds . there are off with regularity to rwanda is for the birds. there are going to be massive, complex and complicated legal . and as ivan complicated legal. and as ivan quite rightly points out, constitutional questions that get raised here. and that's why i now think i'm not 100% certain, but i'm two thirds certain, but i'm two thirds certain that he's going to have to call a general election before this gets to the courts. thatis before this gets to the courts. that is my view. i could be right. i could be wrong. but i feel it more strongly than i felt before. in a moment, we'll talk to alexander downer now , he talk to alexander downer now, he was part of the australian government that did not just stop the boats. they towed them back to indonesia. i'm going to ask him how effective he thinks the rwanda legislation is going to be, and bear in mind he has been a government adviser on this policy . holac

stop the boats that is rishi sunak big policy. indeed. as it was boris johnson's before. they've managed to pass their rwanda legislation. if it all was to go to plan rwanda would, dunng was to go to plan rwanda would, during the month of july into august, take 2 to 300 people. but then if they're coming across the channel in three or 4 or 5 hundreds every day, i wonder how much of a disincentive that would be. i talked a moment ago with ivan samson about the complexities legally and constitutionally, of all of this. but of course, there is one country that faced a very similar problem and dealt with it highly effectively and alexander downer, who's acted as an advisor to the uk government on this problem and you've held very high office in australia. you were there, you saw tony abbott, you know, the prime minister at the time and you tried all sorts of tactics. but in the end you did genuinely stop the boats, didn't you? >> well, the way we stopped the boats was, first of all, by

setting up offshore processing in nauru, which, if you like, is the equivalent of the rwanda solution. so nobody who arrived on a dangerous journey by boat, having paid a people smuggler, would ever be able to settle in australia. >> and that was made clear. >> and that was made clear. >> and that was made absolutely clear. we also had a policy of turn back the boats, although we hardly ever turned any of the boats back, because you can only do so if it's safe and it typically isn't safe. so it was really the offshore processing and stopping them coming to australia. that meant that the people smugglers couldn't get anybody to pay them. yeah >> if you kill the business model. >> that's right. >> that's right. >> you kill the whole thing. >> you kill the whole thing. >> that's the expression that i often use . destroy the business often use. destroy the business model, and then you will solve the problem. and so rwanda should do that, but it has to be implemented. i mean, it's taken them a very long time to

overcome all the legal hurdles. >> two years, two years, that's not a help, but secondly, they have to make sure they have overcome all of the legal hurdles we work very hard on that in australia. >> you didn't have the problem that we have with this european court of human rights based in strasbourg, with the european convention being written into uk law by our friend mr blair, and by judges and maybe the supreme court sometime this summer, facing a battle between precedent, the legislation that's been passed . you didn't that's been passed. you didn't have those problems. you were much more sovereign in a sense, perhaps, than we are. but here's the thing. and, you know, and i know you've been trying to help the government deal with this and do this with the best, but with the best will in the world. if all rwanda will take are 2 or 300 in the first two months. and we're dealing here with mid—july, which is 10 to 12 weeks from now, which tends to be the warmest, most settled weather in the english channel.

you know, if they're if they're able to come at four and 500 a day, the thought of the odd one here or there being deported, it's not going to work on its own, is it? >> it won't work if you're only going to take, 1 or 2 a day. of course, the, the, potential migrants have to know that if they pay 3000, whatever it is, euros five even. yeah. of five to a people smuggler, they will not arrive in the uk. they blow their money. >> but this is my point, alexander. my point is that if rwanda were saying, you know, we'll take whatever you've got, we'll take whatever you've got, we'll take whatever you've got, we'll take the whole of july. >> well, i think i think they, my experience of dealing with rwanda is that it's not true. they've said there's any upper limit they will take whatever the. >> well, they've said 2 to 300 to begin with. >> well , not when i to begin with. >> well, not when i was there. >> well, not when i was there. >> well, not when i was there. >> well, when i was there, well, ihave >> well, when i was there, well, i have to say, but it doesn't matter because the point here

is, they need to the government needs to define a point , beyond needs to define a point, beyond which anyone who tries to cross the channel in this way will end up in rwanda . up in rwanda. >> they need to define that temporal point. >> so if rwanda , it was. >> so if rwanda, it was. >> so if rwanda, it was. >> so if rwanda, it was. >> so i go back to the point so they won't get a lot of people. >> if rwanda can't take the volume, it isn't going to work is it. >> no, no. right right. but but i make the point that you won't get the volume if the potential migrants know that they're going to end up in rwanda. >> that'll depend a bit on percentages, won't it ? i mean, percentages, won't it? i mean, you know, if you come to britain illegally now, you've got a 1 to 1.5% chance of being deported . 1.5% chance of being deported. yeah, that's a very low risk. yeah. you know, if rwanda is five, 10% of the volume that come this summer in the short tum, it's not going to work , is it. >> no. if the if your point is right, if it's not a comprehensive solution, then the

potential migrants are going to think it's worth giving it a run , but so it depends how comprehensive it is. i mean, i've always said to the british government, you don't want carve outs, you don't want to say, well , you'll outs, you don't want to say, well, you'll have carve outs for women and women and children or particular types of asylum seekers, you can't do that. you have to have a comprehensive approach. everybody who tries to cross the channel beyond a certain date will have their application processed in women, young, old, everyone . i mean, young, old, everyone. i mean, they're only being transferred to rwanda , it's a bit of to rwanda, it's a bit of a flight. it's a flight that i've made. it's a lovely country. they'll be transferred there and they'll be processed in the normal way. is it safe? >> you've been there, it's perfectly safe. yes. i mean, it's a beautiful country. i've often said to people i must be about the only person in the uk who's been to nauru and rwanda. >> you're probably probably

quite, quite a unique position . quite, quite a unique position. >> pretty much the only one, and if i had to choose between nauru, where australians do the offshore processing and rwanda , offshore processing and rwanda, where i would choose rwanda, it's a beautiful country . nauru it's a beautiful country. nauru is a small island in the middle of the pacific . interesting, but of the pacific. interesting, but i might have another choice if i was one of these asylum seekers, because i keep reminding people they're coming from france. so they're coming from france. so they have a choice between france or rwanda. i mean, if i had a choice between living in france or living in rwanda, i don't know which way i'd go. >> what's the appeal of the uk , >> what's the appeal of the uk, do you think? you know, i mean, i mean, i know you're a close friend of this country, but you can be slightly more dispassionate, perhaps, than we can be. what is it about the uk? why do they? >> they might have relatives here. they might think it's easier to get a job here. it's a less regulated labour market, andifs less regulated labour market, and it's a country that speaks

english. and so english is the sort of lingua franca of the world. >> and we're a soft touch. >> and we're a soft touch. >> right ? i >> and we're a soft touch. >> right? i mean, >> and we're a soft touch. >> right ? i mean, exactly. >> right? i mean, exactly. i mean, if you look at the percentage of refugee applications in the uk, that are accepted , it's something i mean, accepted, it's something i mean, it's gone out of my head, but it's gone out of my head, but it's something like 75. it's ridiculous. and in the eu, yes, it's much lower. it's 40 to 50. >> cynically, i think alexander , >> cynically, i think alexander, the reason that so many people get granted asylum, it's the way of clearing the backlog, is my own view on it. >> you were a bit of that going on. now. >> you've worked very hard on this. you're obviously pleased the legislation has gone through. i'm glad that. yeah, we'll have you back in ten weeks. time to see how this is. all right. >> all right. i'll look forward to, explaining how well it's working in ten weeks. >> well. >> well. >> we'll see. well done with stopping the boats in australia. so the prime minister goes to poland today , promises more poland today, promises more money to support ukraine. but significantly. and bear in mind

that during the budget there was almost no mention of defence whatsoever, no , no increase in whatsoever, no, no increase in defence spending, despite the services crying out for more. and yet today he goes to poland and suddenly says we're going to increase defence spending to 2.5% from 2. tell you what folks , it all adds to my view. an election is coming very, very soon. all of that in just a moment

nato matters. it's mattered for 75 years. indeed. they just had their 75th birthday. and the rules of the club in the modern day are that everybody that's a member in the 31 countries now that are members, everyone must spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defence. otherwise they are frankly delinquent. and of course, it's donald trump who very publicly

in 2017 called out nato member countries, pointing out only five countries were actually spending more than 2. well, that commitment is now up to 18, possibly 19 of those countries. and things are changing. we were below the 2% we're now at or around the 2, although i do think we've taken into that quite a lot of our ceremonial expenditure as well . but given expenditure as well. but given the state of our armed forces, given that the army is small, the navy , the royal air force the navy, the royal air force are small, the number of fighter jets we have is frankly pitiful. and we've seen over 14 years of conservative government, a very, very significant shrinkage in our defence capability. given that in a world where we have a war, just a three hour flight away, we have another war maybe four hours away, in gaza. and the ever present threat of what china may or may not do when it comes to taiwan , the calls for

comes to taiwan, the calls for us to up defence spending have been incredibly loud, and it was a major source of disappointment to many of our national newspapers and indeed many backbench conservative members of parliament that jeremy hunt, in the budget, barely mentioned defence at all, and the plan was to keep it at 2. but today, after after securing the victory, as it were , last night victory, as it were, last night in the palace of westminster over the rwanda legislation, rishi sunak heads off to poland . rishi sunak heads off to poland. poland, of course, which borders ukraine and sunak, making it very, very clear that we will go on supporting ukraine. we will give more to money ukraine, but significantly in this speech, suddenly , out of the blue, he suddenly, out of the blue, he announces that we will increase defence spending to 2.5% of gdp by 2030, which would take defence spending up to £87 billion a year. now, interestingly , this is pretty

interestingly, this is pretty much the labour position looking ahead as well . and it's been ahead as well. and it's been very interesting that recent polling said the public supported labour. more on defence than the conservatives, which historically, traditionally seems pretty remarkable. so that's the big pledge we will increase. the next conservative government will increase defence spending to 2.5, and labour, i think, will do very much the same. it's good news. there are many, many involved in defence, many worried about international security who think this is a good sign. but why now ? why now? good sign. but why now? why now? any guesses folks? i'll tell you why now. because there's a general election coming . they're general election coming. they're beginning to say all of the right things. having not done any of them for the last 14 years. and we're all supposed to believe that everything now is going to be okay. well, i guess you may say at home, better late than never . you may say at home, better late than never. but it all adds to what i was saying last night that i now begin to believe that the balance of probabilities is

now more in favour of an election at the end of june or in early july, than it is in october or november this year. and that speech today by sunak very much proves my point. now, today is, of course, england's national day. yeah, it is saint george's day. now, this is something, of course, that we're supposed to be thoroughly ashamed of. you know, if you're ashamed of. you know, if you're a welsh nationalist, a scottish nationalist , a welsh nationalist, a scottish nationalist, an irish nationalist, an irish nationalist, that's absolutely wonderful and to be encouraged. but any sense of english patriotism has been thought to be bad. well plenty of people up and down the country have been celebrating. there was a big march, saint george's day march that took place in dartford this afternoon, and gb news were there and covered it there was a bit of yobbery, i suspect after a few drinks that took place in whitehall this afternoon . but i whitehall this afternoon. but i wonder what our kids are being told. well this is

extraordinary. this email was sent in to me and it comes from a school in london. we can't name the school though. i'd very much like to. dear parents. hello this is a reminder that tomorrow the 23rd of april, i.e. today is our spanish language day. all children are invited to come to school wearing the colours of the spanish flag. red and yellow . and it's true, it is and yellow. and it's true, it is the united nations spanish language day. but wouldn't you hope that this school and many others, rather than encouraging people to dress up in spanish flags , might teach them a bit flags, might teach them a bit about england, england's flag , about england, england's flag, saint george and where it comes from? and i do feel on issues like this, we are being let down by our educational sector absolutely dreadfully. now i'm joined down the line by tobias ellwood, conservative member of parliament for bournemouth east, former regular army officer and still in the army reserve.

tobias, good news that finally, finally the government have shifted, it's taken an awful long time. it was ignored in the budget. labour, of course, have been promising more spending. but at least you must think this is good news. what? sunak has said in poland today? >> very much so. i mean, good evening to you. and. yes, absolutely. right. this is a very welcome announcement by the prime minister. i mean, first, recognising how the wider threat picture that we've discussed in the past is certainly deteriorating and also the dangers of allowing russia to win, to claim any sort of victory in ukraine. so upping our military contribution to ukraine, joining with the americans, who finally allowed that $60 billion package to get through, but also , as you were through, but also, as you were implying, increasing our own defence spending , our own defence spending, our own defence spending, our own defence posture as well, reaching 2.5% over the next five years. our world certainly is getting more dangerous. and our economy, which is very much

vulnerable to global movement , vulnerable to global movement, international supply chains, access to markets and so forth , access to markets and so forth, security of supply relating to energy needs, of course , is energy needs, of course, is under threat. so this is very, very welcome indeed . yeah. very welcome indeed. yeah. >> all of that's true. and i agree with every word of your analysis. all it makes me wonder why why in the recent budget did jeremy hunt basically not even mention defence, let alone increase the spending? why is rishi sunak done it now? am i right to think that a summer general election could be just around the corner? >> well, you might think that. and maybe there is. i think it's more just to do with the grid. in number 10, the budget was about the domestic audience or where the economy is going. movement, which is good to see, getting inflation down to 2. clearly, the prime minister visiting germany , visiting visiting germany, visiting poland, going to the, you know, the eastern flank of nato, that's the appropriate time to recognise that we're now going to invest further in our

defence. we need to see that bigger picture. this post—cold war stability that we've enjoyed probably over the last three decadesis probably over the last three decades is very much over. i believe all nato countries will now need to match our commitment and move to 2.5. indeed well, there's an array of areas that we need to spend more, just not just on land, air and sea, but the whole character of conduct of war is changing, as we've seen in ukraine. so before we throw any money at the mod, they don't necessarily spend it wisely. we just need to confirm how that threat picture is changing and then where we need to invest. what i'm really pleased to hear i never thought i'd hear this language, is the fact that our , defence industry fact that our, defence industry is going to move to a war footing that's going to match what russia is doing. they've moved there some time ago. that's the bigger picture. that's the bigger picture. that's the bigger threat picture that we now face. we can keep our peace only if we prepare for war, tobias.

>> if we keep sending our artillery shells to ukraine, we need to up our production. otherwise, it won't be an awful lot left for us. just a final thought on this. and you touched on this. one of the criticisms of the ministry of defence has been that even when it gets the money, the projects that it spends, the money on are over budget or out of time. do we need to rethink defence procurement ? procurement? >> it it's being rethought for the very reasons that you've set up, because money has been wasted, partly because there's been a change in procurement. minister partly because the spec, you know, the specifications change as you're building it. and of course, that costs more money. you touched on something very, very important though. and that's the stockpiles. the war in europe at the moment is in ukraine. it's absolutely right that that's where our efforts go. that's where our efforts go. that's where our efforts go. that's where our stockpiles have gone . where our stockpiles have gone. but they of course need replenishing. and on those one five, five shells, you know, russia is outgunning ukraine 5 to 1, 5 to 1. and at the moment,

if you take a howitzer from lithuania and try and fire one, five, five munitions from germany, it won't work. so there needs to be commonality, greater commonality of defence equipment across nato. that's another area that we need to focus on. >> tobias. it's a subject we'll be returning to again and again and again. and as ever, thank you for joining and again. and as ever, thank you forjoining me. you for joining me. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> in a moment i've touched on this before. we're going to discuss just how much of your money it takes to train doctors, let alone those that go on to become consultant surgeons. and the fact that so many of them are leaving and going abroad . i are leaving and going abroad. i don't think this is fair on the british taxpayer . i think we british taxpayer. i think we need to do something about it.

so there i was, november last

year. so there i was, november last year . early so there i was, november last year. early in the morning, walking along this stunning beach. walking along this stunning beach . gold coast, queensland. beach. gold coast, queensland. it was the day before i was due to go into the jungle. and i'm wandering along the beach thinking maybe i need to have my bumps felt for going on to this program . and there was a chap program. and there was a chap there fishing and i had a hat on and wraparound glasses and thought nobody would recognise me. and he called my name and i went have a chat with him, and he was from cheshire. he was there with his dad and i said, what are you up to? oh he said, i've just become an orthopaedic surgeon and we've moved to, brisbane. and his dad said , brisbane. and his dad said, yeah, cost us a bloomin fortune to train him. but the first thing he does is disappear. well, good luck to the youngster, i love queensland, i could move to brisbane tomorrow , could move to brisbane tomorrow, but it struck me that we are spending a heck of a lot of money training doctors now. for example, you know when you get when you get to a level of a consultant , the estimate is that consultant, the estimate is that over £400,000 of taxpayers money

has been spent getting that man or woman to consultant level, and i think we should return to and i think we should return to anidea and i think we should return to an idea that was rather well known in dickens's day. it was called indenture . what it meant called indenture. what it meant it was a contract. we will train you. we will invest our time in you. we will invest our time in you. we will invest our money in you. we will invest our money in you. but you've got to give us back a number of years service before you consider going to australia or elsewhere. and i know some people are going to think i'm being terribly old fashioned, but i do think that it's wrong that we train doctors that head off around the world. we then import doctors from poor african countries that probably need those doctors more than we do. as you can see, i feel quite strongly about this now. i'm joined by doctor tolu, an nhs doctor who joins me down the line, who i understand has just flown into manchester from australia . are you about to australia. are you about to desert us? >> well, i mean, it's, it's very tempting . tempting. >> well, i tell you what, it is

very tempting because just looking at the numbers is, you know, a gp in the uk , average know, a gp in the uk, average hourly wage is about £33, but in australia it's about £64. and properties half the price . so properties half the price. so it's double the money. the weather's better houses i mean i get it, i get it. is that what's tempting you? >> i mean, i wouldn't say it's more about the money. i mean, i'd say it's more about, you know, kind of how the health care system, you know, treats its, you know, healthcare workers. i think obviously you know, we're currently in the middle of a strike at the moment. that's just, you know, a perfect example of, you know, what the nhs is like at the moment. you know, it's overstretched, you know, kind of, you know, doctors don't feel like they're valued, doctors are, you know, underpaid and, you know, overworked, you know, kind of all of these things put together does make that, you know, very nice weather look a lot more appealing , no, i get lot more appealing, no, i get the morale point, but but just just to take my point, if i may, that when you've gone all the way through to become a

consultant and you're earning really very big money, you know, isn't it reasonable for people who watch or listen to this programme who pay their taxes to train people? isn't it reasonable to expect a few years of service back ? of service back? >> i mean, it takes quite a few years to get there, you know, in the first place. i mean, as you can imagine, obviously there are, you know, medical school fees and then you've got your insurance. you've got i mean, there are, you know, going through med school isn't exactly a walk in the park, as you can imagine, and i do understand where you're coming from in terms of, you know, having, you know, a level of service after you have graduated. i mean, that technically does exist. now you've got your foundation year one, your foundation year two, which most people do stay for. and then obviously most people at that point do stay in the uk because at that point, you know, you've got, but but there's no compulsion , is there? well no, compulsion, is there? well no, no, no compulsion. but i feel like a lot of people who do go into, you know, medicine do really care about the nhs. you know, you spend all those years training the nhs and you feel, you know, a sense of you have to

give back a sense of you know, i've been in the nhs for about, you know, about 3 or 4 years now, you know, and that it's only at that point i even started thinking about australia, you know, all right. >> no, no fair point. and you've made the point about morale very, very strongly. so, doctor tolu, the next time i walk down that beach on gold coast, queensland, would i see you there fishing ? there fishing? >> oh, well, you never know. >> oh, well, you never know. >> you know, you never take that as a yes. i'm going to take that as a yes. i'm going to take that as a yes. i'm going to take that as a yes. >> thank you very much indeed. now, doctor emeka, nhs a&e doctor and author of your health in your hands, joins me. you heard that debate. you heard that conversation. i mean, i mean, i mean, is morale that bad ? >> 7 >> honestly. >> honestly. >> so because of technical issues, i don't have an earpiece, so i don't actually hean earpiece, so i don't actually hear, i'm sorry, saying what he was saying was that morale is not good, right? >> that junior doctors are not being treated very well. that's why the strikes have happened. yes. and that actually double the pay and sunshine in australia is quite tempting. >> it is it is tempting. i can understand from doctor torres point especially a number of my

friends and different colleagues have gone not just to australia but to canada, to the states, to the middle east. and you can see why obviously , i've trained here why obviously, i've trained here in the nhs. i went to medical school here and i'm working in the nhs and i enjoy it. however, i do see what they're talking aboutin i do see what they're talking about in terms of morale. doctors here feel undervalued, they feel underpaid and they feel overworked. >> but they've always been some of the most respected members of our communities. >> you say that, but then it's not reflected in the pay restoration that doctors have been fighting for, and they just don't feel like the government is actually doing its bit to value these doctors. >> so, for example, if i told you you could do the exact same job in somewhere else in a better place, you get paid more, you're more respected and you have a better quality of life. you think about leaving two and it is literally for doctors and i'iui'ses. >> nurses. >> australia is and new zealand double the money. >> yeah, i think in some in i know they spoke to an emergency medical consultant who'd gone out there in 2017, and he's earning three times what he'd be earning three times what he'd be earning here in the nhs. so it does make sense from that point of view, from their point of

view, i do get i do get the what about what about the poor old taxpayer? yes, i do get the view of obviously retaining doctors, but you need to start with like the smaller things of having doctors feel like , you know, doctors feel like, you know, they're valued in a community, as in the workforce, the management needs to change. and i think i've actually spoken to , i think i've actually spoken to, some of the people higher up in terms of management and the prime minister down the street where we were discussing what could be done over ten years to retain doctors. so they're obviously trying to recruit more and train more, increase medical school places, which is great. but you're going to be losing doctors as long as they stay. >> but it's not great if we invest loads of public money, they go off and work somewhere else. i believe they should be a contract that makes them stay for at least five years or something. i mean, that's what believe. >> okay, i understand that, but i believe that once you've gotten your degree , you should gotten your degree, you should be able to do whatever you want with it, whether that's to practice medicine here elsewhere or not, to practice at all. when you've gone to med school, you've gone to med school, you've actually been inputting in the nhs. that's what people don't realise. medical students. >> that is a fair point. >> that is a fair point. >> medical students themselves aren't isn't are doing a bit.

thatis aren't isn't are doing a bit. that is a fair point and are valued as people within the hospitals, within gp practices. i know as a med student, i did a lot. obviously just helping. obviously you're supervised, but you're still a med student in this country and you're contributing to the nhs . so contributing to the nhs. so let's take that point when you've then obviously graduated and go some other way towards you, maybe four years, not five when you've graduated. i feel like it's up to you what you want to do. i personally think it's good to work as a doctor in the nhs just to gauge the system. obviously it's a system. you've trained in the system be very familiar with. however, i don't blame people who then say actually, i've got my degree and i've worked very hard for it because we are also taxpayers too. you say taxpayers, but are we not funding ourselves to go to medical school? it's not free. >> it's not. no no no no no no. >> you're making contributions. but the taxpayer makes a very big contribution. final thought on this, if i may, shouldn't we feel guilty that as a result of a shortage of doctors and people training and leaving, a shortage of doctors and people training and leaving , that we training and leaving, that we now recruit doctors from some very poor third world countries where they're probably more needed than here? shouldn't we feel guilty about that? >> honestly, i don't think it's

about feeling guilty . i think about feeling guilty. i think many doctors want to come and work in the nhs, as in, there are more doctors working in the nhs than ever before. obviously there are more leaving too, but you have to think about it. it's not just working in the nhs, it's what the uk provides and obviously it's a better standard of living for a number of different people who want to come and immigrate into the country. so it's not just that and the uk needs doctors. we can't complain about doctors leaving at the same time feel guilty about bringing doctors in. >> i just i tell you what mean. >> you know, if we're sending doctors to australia and we're getting them in from canada or whatever, fine. it's just when we sort of pour west african countries that haven't got great medical systems, they probably need their doctors and nurses more than we do. that's the point i'm making. and i understand where you're coming from. >> but i feel like with west african countries or other countries, it's up to the individuals themselves, whether they want to stay and work in their own systems or come here. >> not if i was in charge. doctor emeka. if i was in charge, they'd be sticking around for a bit longer. >> i making that jacob. >> i making that jacob. >> interesting debate isn't it? >> interesting debate isn't it? >> it's a very interesting debate. i'm think i'm a bit more liberal than you are. oh dear. well, my worry is that just because the nhs has paid for

something doesn't mean it can. then tell you what to do. so if you go into hospital for a year. yeah do you then owe a year's work for the nhs to pay it back? and i don't think you do. i see and i worry about this. on smoking when the nhs treats you, therefore you shouldn't do it. i don't like that argument. so would i be being inconsistent ? would i be being inconsistent? >> this is an employment contract. >> i accept that and it's fair to ask for a return. but doctors do work through medical school. that was made the point. that was very clearly made. yeah. and ultimately i think you want a health system that works. and the real question is we spend the real question is we spend the same roughly on gdp per capha the same roughly on gdp per capita as australia, and yet we're paying doctors so much less . exactly. we've got much less. exactly. we've got much longer waiting lists. what is wrong . it's structural internal wrong. it's structural internal structural i, i think dare i say it, sound medical. you're treating the symptom rather than the cause . the cause. >> i just think the taxpayer is getting a rotten deal out of some of this. and that's i agree with that. >> but that i think, comes from the basic socialist medicine that isn't telling us what we need. >> i'm done for the evening. we

will have the uber liberal jacob rees—mogg in a moment, taking on the show from 8:00. but before we do all of that, let's have a look at the all important april showers . showers. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boiler dollars. sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update. it will stay dry, but it will be quite a cold night. tonight and throughout tomorrow, the best of the sunshine will be across north and western areas once again. that's because high pressure is dominating over here. meanwhile, to the east of the uk we've got low pressure and this weather front that's brought cloudier skies throughout this afternoon to the southeast. that should clear away overnight though, and we'll be left with this northerly wind that will bring a cold feel to coastal areas through wednesday, but also a few showers overnight. tonight should be fairly light and mainly just restrict coastal areas further north and west, though clear and dry and quite cold. by tomorrow we could be down as low as —3 or

4 for some scottish glens, but the frost should be fairly patchy and should melt away fairly quickly as well. then we'll be left with a dry and bright day for many western areas of the uk. in the east, though with this northerly wind that's always going to drag in a bit more in the way of cloud. and that risk of showers will continue into wednesday afternoon. we'll feel a little bit brighter, though than today as the cloud will be a bit higher and then the best of the sunshine could see highs of 15 or 16 degrees. another cold night to come on wednesday night. so a cold start on thursday and then this area of low pressure in the north sea will bring this band of rain and cloud across northern areas of england, southern scotland through thursday should be drier and brighter in the south, but then friday and saturday look that much more unsettled. however, notice temperatures will start to rise by saturday. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> hello. good evening. it's me, jacob rees—mogg, on state of the nation. tonight. cry god for harry england and saint george. happy saint george's day tonight i'll be asking the most important question of all. who was saint george and why do we celebrate him? after a long game of parliamentary ping pong of olympic proportions , the rwanda olympic proportions, the rwanda plan has finally received royal assent . migrant detentions are assent. migrant detentions are set to begin within days, with today's very sad news. tragic news of five deaths in the channel. will it be enough to stop the crossings ? as a united stop the crossings? as a united nafions stop the crossings? as a united nations agency has claimed climate change is damaging your mental health, contributing to depression and anxiety . but mental health, contributing to depression and anxiety. but is this more climate alarmism? and if it isn't , surely a good old if it isn't, surely a good old fashioned british stiff upper lip will do the job. plus,

thames water is once