have the labour restored to have the labour whip restored . but should she be allowed back into former tory into the party.7 former tory leader sir iain duncan smith will be in the studio will be here in the studio discussing future of the discussing the future of the west and, of course, the west briton and, of course, the conservatives. i'll be speaking to transport secretary mark harper the government's to transport secretary mark harpe for the government's to transport secretary mark harpe for net the government's to transport secretary mark harpe for net zero government's to transport secretary mark harpe for net zero electric ent's plans for net zero electric vehicles, and suggestions that penny mordaunt should be leading the tories rather than rishi sunak. the tories rather than rishi sunak . i'll also be joined by sunak. i'll also be joined by the shadow paymaster general, labour's jonathan ashworth, and stop the press. actually have stop the press. we actually have a liberal democrat on the show this morning. the party's chief whip , wendy chamberlin, will whip, wendy chamberlin, will join from spring join us from their spring conference and author and commentator rob henderson will join me to chat about his new book, troubled, a memoir of foster and social foster care. family and social class. don't go anywhere because we've got 90 minutes of fun packed politics coming right up. this . well, to go through the

this. well, to go through the papers this morning, i'm delighted to be joined by australia's former high commissioner to the uk, the former minister former foreign minister alexander downer, who's now chief not chief chief chair, actually not chief chair policy exchange chair of the policy exchange think tank. nice to see you this morning, thanks morning, alexander. thanks for joining me, i know we've been talking green room about talking in the green room about these mad stories now about penny mordaunt being the answer to tory prayers. let's talk about that appears about the polling that appears in sunday. first of in the mail on sunday. first of all, basically predicting electoral oblivion. wipe out whatever word you want. an armageddon for the tories. do you agree with that analysis that labour could be winning, or on course to win a 250 seat or plus majority? >> yes, i must say, as i go around the country that is the impression i get. but people aren't very enthusiastic about laboun aren't very enthusiastic about labour, they really want to labour, but they really want to punish the tories. yes. and these stories that we're reading about today. tory mps briefing the media about how they'd like to change the leader yet again. they're just suicide, changing the leader in the first place. i

can tell you from australian experience, is very damaging to a political party in government. changing the leader twice, three times is changing yet again. it will be oblivion for the conservatives. >> but then you're a really experienced politician and you must have some sympathy with the crisis that the tories find themselves in. they're looking at rishi sunak. isn't moving at rishi sunak. he isn't moving the dial at all. we had the budget, which i mean, i don't know. what was your reaction to the budget? know. what was your reaction to the budgithere wasn't enough in >> well, there wasn't enough in it to interest or inspire the pubuc it to interest or inspire the public what government has public what the government has to much more of an to do is develop much more of an overall agenda . so first of all, overall agenda. so first of all, inspire people to think positively about the country in the future. that sounds just like rhetoric , but you need some like rhetoric, but you need some of that rhetoric. what, of that rhetoric. that's what, by way , boris johnson and by the way, boris johnson and ronald reagan and people like that were really good at. yeah, making people feel good about the greatness of their country. but secondly , having policies but secondly, having policies that look as though they're going to achieve that. so, you know, continuing with the if you

like, blairite agenda, rather than differentiating their product, aiming at net zero by 2050, spending billions and billions on renewable energy initiatives, forcing people into electric cars and so on, pushing up the price of energy in the end , they're doing what labour end, they're doing what labour were doing, so unless they agree with the theory that it's a good idea to shoot some of labour's foxes, for instance by scrapping non—doms. no, don't and non—doms. no, i don't and i think scrap shooting labour's foxes as the expression goes, is a really bad idea because it looks as though labour is already in government. yes. i mean , the government is adopting mean, the government is adopting the labour party's policies. i wouldn't do that. i would like the labour party's policy . the labour party's policy. >> that's right. >> that's right. >> not embrace them. >> not embrace them. >> and doesn't the electorate then become inspired or encouraged sort to encouraged to sort of think to themselves, well, why not keir starmer? how much worse it starmer? how much worse can it be? exactly . the electorate >> well, exactly. the electorate will just think, it will will just think, well, it doesn't who you vote for,

doesn't matter who you vote for, which is what they do think at the they don't the moment. they don't particularly labour because particularly fear labour because labour doesn't have an awful lot of policies to fear, and they're tired of the tories. all this gossip about changing leaders. they have changed leaders. well, that's all over the place on policies. >> i know you were a close observer of the coronation, and therefore you will have seen penny mordaunt starring role. she did a marvellous job. board does that make her a potential prime minister in your mind, alexandra? i mean, she's the person that is being touted seemingly by the right now . seemingly by the right now. there's an interesting story in the sunday telegraph about this, because are because the right are now galvanising around penny mordaunt, not mordaunt, which is not a sentence i thought i would utter about six months ago. but then there's suggestion the there's a suggestion in the sunday telegraph actually sunday telegraph that actually they're only doing that and making stalking to they're only doing that and ma and stalking to they're only doing that and ma and draw stalking to they're only doing that and ma and draw the lking to they're only doing that and ma and draw the centre to they're only doing that and ma and draw the centre into to try and draw the centre into calling for rishi sunak to go. so the writer, wanting the people that supported rishi, who were ready rishi now dump him. >> yeah. so i think this will lead to a kind of 1993 canadian

election result, where the canadian tories ended up with just two seats. seriously, i think it would be utterly catastrophic for the conservative party yet again to change its leader. but then you're talking about a near extinction event. >> if you're saying that the tories might be down to two seats. >> well, the canadian tories were down to two seats. they might, might have 100 or 90 seats, but that's near extinction, and a lot of their traditional voters will just ship to reform. yes. i mean, i, l, ship to reform. yes. i mean, i, i, i'd have to say mps should spend their time thinking about policies that might inspire the pubuc policies that might inspire the public and give advice to the prime minister and rally behind the prime minister and the cabinet. not brief the media about how they're about, yet again, to dump the leader, although it's absolutely suicidal. >> i agree with the suicidal nature of it because it seems completely self—defeating . completely self—defeating. however, you'll have quite a lot of mps saying we're trying to

communicate with downing street and get through. and we can't get through. you've got of got rishi sunak sort of beavering away the beavering away behind the scenes. a good scenes. he's not a good campaigner. he's very much keener on sort of the planning, the spreadsheets , the working the spreadsheets, the working out, you know, the tinkering behind. not a johnson behind. he's not a boris johnson figure, is he? and that's what the party is crying out for. >> well, they rid of boris >> well, they got rid of boris johnson. they're not going johnson. so they're not going to have another johnson johnson. so they're not going to have a and er johnson»n johnson. so they're not going to have aandar johnson»n a figure. and boris johnson was a huge winner. do you huge electoral winner. do you think he decided not to get rid of him? well, of course it was a mistake because they should have. mean boris made a lot have. i mean he boris made a lot of mistakes, but they should have rallied behind him in the interests of the survival of the party, but they didn't choose to do that. they got rid of him. it doesn't matter. they got rid of him. they don't have another person like boris to put in his place. they have rishi, who's in the job. theirjob is to rally behind him and to help him. well, i don't know about their communications, but they need to communicate with unite or die as isaac levido has been. unite or

die. >> yeah. how about the farage factor though? i note that he's back on the front page of the sunday express, hinting at the idea of a comeback. obviously he's working for this tv station . there's a suggestion that if he come up back, he's going he does come up back, he's going to bomb the electoral to dive bomb into the electoral campaign. last campaign. really, at the last minute . but can he do serious minute. but can he do serious damage to the conservatives? do you? >> sure. i mean, i think he he can and he probably is already because he, in the reform has the potential to mop up a lot of those red wall tory voters and losing those voters, where are the conservatives going to get their votes from? so it's potentially with the first past the post electoral system, a major problem for the conservatives. they they managed to diminish the ukip vote in 2015 and more recently in 2019 on the brexit issue. yes but they don't have that card to play they don't have that card to play anymore for obvious

reasons. so how they will diminish the reform vote, it's hard to see. >> it's hard to tell. >> it's hard to tell. >> they will do it with policies, but they have to come up with strong and very clear policies, not marginal policies. >> is their defence policy strong enough? the other big story of the weekend is this idea of us being a in a proxy war, effectively with russia , we war, effectively with russia, we know about the gps system on grant shapps jet being blocked. now, we've got a story that you had to cancel a visit to odesa because of the threat from a russian missile. and meanwhile, on the front of the sunday telegraph , we've got a latvian telegraph, we've got a latvian defence chief calling for conscription . conscription in conscription. conscription in the uk to try and see off the threat from vladimir putin. your reaction to those ? reaction to those? >> well, i don't think there's any need for conscription. i think that's way over the top. but i and you need to invest in defence technology rather than having tens of thousands of extra soldiers who are reluctant to be part of the army, but,

yeah , i mean, i do think the yeah, i mean, i do think the british government has done much better on defence than most european governments. so i think we should give credit where it's due, though. >> is that a low bar of comparison? >> it is a low no, it's true, it is a— >> it is a low no, it's true, it is a low bar, and still too much of the burden rests with the americans. so the british government could do more. but they have done much better than most european and other than the east europeans, the poles and so on. but they have done much better than most europeans. and they deserve they deserve quite a lot of credit for that. they've done a fantastic job on ukraine. they have been really robust, , clear position robust, simple, clear position in support of ukraine. they've been they've been very good on although briefly. >> alexander, no increase in defence spending in the budget. >> no. well an error do you think, they have to get the money from somewhere? they spend so much money on green initiatives that leaves them with so little else to spend on

anything else . anything else. >> maybe there are more votes in the nhs for, in defence spending i >> -- >> 40. -_ >> 40. well, i mean, yes, but if you're always thinking about the votes and not the quality of government and the broad direction of the country, you're not going to get anywhere . no. not going to get anywhere. no. that's right. and, and the nhs, they've had 14 years to improve they've had 14 years to improve the performance of the nhs and all they've done is pump money into it. that is going to be into it. that is not going to be the ultimate solution. >> downer, thank you >> alexander downer, thank you very for joining >> alexander downer, thank you very forjoining me very much indeed forjoining me thisit's pleasure, camilla. >> it's a pleasure, camilla. >> it's a pleasure, camilla. >> coming up next, we're >> well, coming up next, we're going be speaking sir iain going to be speaking to sir iain duncan like to get duncan smith. i'd like to get his reaction to rishi sunak's leadership of leadership and also this idea of penny mordaunt giving the tories a chance of winning a better chance of winning the next

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. it's lovely to have your company this sunday morning. if i'm a bit croaky. by the way, i have spent the whole week off ill in bed. i've got the lurgy that i think half the country got. if i have a country has got. so if i have a little fit, you'll little coughing fit, you'll hopefully forgive me. now i'm delighted that joined

delighted to say that i'm joined now conservative now by former conservative leader iain duncan smith, leader sir iain duncan smith, the and the mp for chingford and woodford lovely to see woodford green. lovely to see you morning. now the you this morning. now the newspapers bring us news of tory calamity . sir ian, with the calamity. sir ian, with the tories apparently heading for the biggest defeat in history. talk of labour winning 250 seats, majority . it looks like seats, majority. it looks like it could be worse than 1997. what's your response to some of these reports? >> well, let me deal with the labour bit first and i'll come back to the other stuff, i actually don't agree, the truth is, if you look at the polls as well, they tell you nearly half the have not made the public have simply not made an absolute decision about where they'll vote. now, that's really important because the comparisons with 96 are wrong. i was here in 96 by way past longer than this moment in political cycle. i would knock on doors of tory voters and they would tell me no good, sorry, i want change. i'm voting for blair didn't say the labour party. they said, blair, you'd cut through completely. the

decisions had been made at this stage. they haven't. so i always refer to this as the polling being a mile wide but about an inch deep. the truth is, it's a reaction to us. it's not that they want labour, it's they're fed up with us. the infighting and all the other problems we've had covid and the cost of living crisis. any government that had faced the biggest challenge is bound to like being bound to look like being unpopular, because people are fed with having of fed up with having cost of living, that's true . living, etc. and that's true. sorting absolutely sorting that out is absolutely vital and then at the same time, nobody quite knows who labour are. so you need to have a few battles with labour defining them and defining yourselves. and we seem to be dodging that. >> that seems to be. yeah, reluctant to take the fight to laboun reluctant to take the fight to labour. mean, there's lots of labour. i mean, there's lots of key could labour. i mean, there's lots of key about could labour. i mean, there's lots of key about the could labour. i mean, there's lots of key about the private could labour. i mean, there's lots of key about the private school talk about the private school vat decision , you could talk vat decision, you could talk about the green prosperity pledge, but the attack lines are there, but they don't seem to attack for long enough and sort of directly enough at the stuff that labour coming up with. that labour is coming up with. and the stuff that and indeed the stuff that labour's flopping about.

labour's flip flopping about. i mean, rishi sunak mean, do you think rishi sunak is labour? is running scared of labour? they with a budget they come out with a budget that's lite , as alexander that's labour lite, as alexander downer what's downer just said to me, what's the of imitating, the point of imitating, imitating opposition? the point of imitating, imi well] opposition? the point of imitating, imiwell i opposition? the point of imitating, imiwell i agree,)osition? the point of imitating, imiwell i agree, soition? what >> well i agree, so here's what they should do. there are 3 or 4 issues that are are very critical to dividing us and defining labour. one of those is net zero. i have to tell you, i know none of my constituencies. iknock know none of my constituencies. i knock on doors that tell me they love the idea of spending vast of money and taxing vast sums of money and taxing them to get the money off them. so saw that in uxbridge, the so we saw that in uxbridge, the ulez also the uxbridge ulez vote, but also the uxbridge resistance to labour. there was the first time the 2019 coalition that elected us came back together again over this issue. you see, the polls tell them that, yes, everyone wants a clean environment. of course we do. but we are less than 1% now of global emissions. we're one of global emissions. we're one of the lowest of the whole set of the lowest of the whole set of g7 . what we should be doing of g7. what we should be doing is saying, do you know what the cost of this is so high? probably well over £1 trillion. they don't want it. so when you see polls, they say, yes, keen

on that, but not going to pay another penny towards this. and i we need to say stop the another penny towards this. and i try'e need to say stop the another penny towards this. and i try and ed to say stop the another penny towards this. and i try and get 0 say stop the another penny towards this. and i try and get thisy stop the another penny towards this. and i try and get this sorted.he rush, try and get this sorted. so the public can actually agree and believe with where we are now. labour will come to that fight completely now. labour will come to that fight to completely now. labour will come to that fight to the completely now. labour will come to that fight to the whole completely now. labour will come to that fight to the whole comjtotely now. labour will come to that fight to the whole comjto net wedded to the whole rush to net zero. 28 billion, which zero. the 28 billion, which rishi goes on about quite rishi sunak goes on about quite rightly , labour to rightly, that labour pledged to spend taxpayers money that spend of taxpayers money that had to disappear. but it's only temporary. it'll come back if they get elected. so defining them migration. the them migration. we've got the flights to rwanda. they've got to get that bill finished and through and those off. >> how confident are you that you're see off you're going to see flights off to rwanda this time? to rwanda in this time? >> confident but i'm >> well, i'm confident but i'm not absolutely confident because that confidence . well there's that confidence. well there's one less there's one bit, which is the european convention of human rights, which might there's a little window that could do it. they could possibly do it. they might have it tougher. but have made it tougher. but i think enough i mean, is think actually enough i mean, is it going to enough? it going to be enough? >> know there's this >> i know that there's this theory you send flights theory that if you send flights to rwanda, finally, if you send people try and people away and you try and bnng people away and you try and bring these boat numbers down,

that to be the that that's going to be the secret of electoral secret to some kind of electoral success tories. they've success for the tories. they've got to do lot more than that. got to do a lot more than that. >> they have they the main >> they have they but the main point things sometimes >> they have they but the main point visual.ings sometimes >> they have they but the main point visual. the sometimes >> they have they but the main point visual. the flights mes >> they have they but the main point off visual. the flights mes >> they have they but the main point off to ual. the flights mes >> they have they but the main point off to rwanda flights mes >> they have they but the main point off to rwanda isights mes >> they have they but the main point off to rwanda is a�*its mes going off to rwanda is a sign, finally, that the government has gnpped finally, that the government has gripped and beginning to gripped this and is beginning to turn the tide. there are lots of other routes in, as you've seen a we've had a huge a lot of. we've had a huge migration one the big migration here. one of the big pressures housing pressures on housing is the scale the of people scale of the number of people coming doesn't help , coming in. that doesn't help, but means, therefore we've but that means, therefore we've got getting those got to start getting those on sickness benefit. and you sickness benefit. and i've you know, did it, we had the know, when i did it, we had the lowest of workless lowest number of workless households. lowest number of workless household since covid 9 million. ballooned since covid 9 million. who could really got to get that and back to work. proper training . kids have have training. kids have have disappeared school disappeared from school as a result ridiculous result of the ridiculous lockdowns . we've got to get this lockdowns. we've got to get this going, need to show going, and we need to show that we're keen that. we're keen on that. >> migration, no doubt you >> on migration, no doubt you noticed, as i did, that this figure of 315,000 per year seems to be baked in by the obr when it comes to how legal migration should look over the coming years . 315,000 people coming years. 315,000 people coming into country year is too

into this country a year is too many people. isn't it? >> the most positive thing anybody in politics and government can do is ignore the obr, right? they've been wrong on come down. why the >> come down. why are the government now these figures? >> because we've got so many people domestically people here domestically in the uk that should be seeking work, taking work and learning a taking that work and learning a lot of training that needs to happen. so all of this is where we should be going this cheap way of bringing people in just because you can't be bothered to train because you have to. train them because you have to. yes. drivers. i used yes. it's like drivers. i used to this argument with the to have this argument with the big haulage companies. so why are all these are you bringing all these people from when there people in from poland when there are of people with are loads of people with driver's that would driver's license? that would need weeks? and did need only two weeks? and i did it. htv2 to train to be an it. htv2 yes, to train to be an hgv then it's a very well paid career they just didn't want career and they just didn't want to training side of it. to do the training side of it. so, know, need stop so, you know, we need to stop looking for cheap short term alternatives start alternatives and start recognising british recognising using the british pubuc recognising using the british public investing in to public are worth investing in to get them back to work and trained. >> but people like you are making all of these great points, which i'm sure our audience would wholeheartedly

agree with. but the government isn't i mean, is isn't listening. i mean, this is the , isn't it? that the problem, isn't it? that rishi banging about rishi sunak is banging on about this plan? it's not this five point plan? it's not working. come out with working. they've come out with a budget hasn't moved the budget that hasn't moved the dial at all. you've got this scandal over this hester donation. you know, the tories are now under pressure to give this 10 million back because of his comments about diane abbott. i mean, you can sympathise with the that tories should the view that the tories should give £10 million back. give that £10 million back. >> can, but they probably >> i can, but they probably spent going to be spent it. so it's going to be quite difficult for them. well, the would don't the way i would say, i don't understand why want to give understand why we want to give money somebody who's, money back to somebody who's, been and used in been so abusive and used race in an argument . why would you give an argument. why would you give that him when that that back to him when that rewards for having been rewards him for having been stupid what stupid and appalling? so what i would you've got any would say, if you've got any money give back, i'd give it money to give back, i'd give it to charities and people that help cohesion and help with community cohesion and all the other stuff. that's the way to punish somebody who behaves not give behaves really badly, not give the him. behaves really badly, not give the and him. behaves really badly, not give the and what's him. behaves really badly, not give the and what's your1im. behaves really badly, not give the and what's your analysis of >> and what's your analysis of some of these reports about penny mordaunt this morning's penny mordaunt in this morning's newspapers? the writers newspapers? i mean, the writers suggesting back

suggesting that they could back penny mordaunt, could you back penny mordaunt? >> at this whole >> i just look at this whole process and think to myself, we've stop turning we've got to stop turning inwards on ourselves and start trying behind the idea trying to get behind the idea that we've got an election to fight, and the public wants to know that we're both united and we're clear. there's points we're very clear. there's points i on about to i said earlier on about how to get the labour into an get the labour party into an argument you can then kill get the labour party into an argunover. you can then kill get the labour party into an argunover. terms an then kill get the labour party into an argunover. terms of then kill get the labour party into an argunover. terms of the1 kill get the labour party into an argunover. terms of the wayl them over. in terms of the way that take debate that you take the debate is really critical, dynamic really critical, and dynamic politics demands it. what dynamic politics does not demand is literally the sort of third, the third leader in a short space of time that replaced bofis space of time that replaced boris johnson. and i was opposed to when we replaced boris johnson because as a man with many faults and had done all sorts of stuff, but nobody had faced the crisis. he had faced, and he's still at that stage would been an asset at the would have been an asset at the end of the day and communication still an asset. but rishi is here and we have to get behind him. i generally i take him. i think generally i take a lot not lot of persuading. it's not a short time you'd have short time process. you'd have to vote of confidence . to have a vote of confidence. then on the back of the vote of confidence, you have to have a

leadership election. the idea you that you know, i'd be persuaded that you know, i'd be persuaded that you person in in you could get one person in in short time, i doubt it. that will you weeks. but then we short time, i doubt it. that will and you weeks. but then we short time, i doubt it. that will and then neeks. but then we short time, i doubt it. that will and then we ks. but then we short time, i doubt it. that will and then we don'tt then we short time, i doubt it. that will and then we don't talk n we short time, i doubt it. that will and then we don't talk to we read and then we don't talk to the times that even rishi the sunday times that even rishi sunak go the sunak thinks he might not go the distance be out distance and he might be out by june july. the answer june or july. well, the answer is we either decide that we want to get the election or we to get the election won or we just give up it. just want to give up on it. >> isn't it a damage limitation exercise? though, i mean, exercise? now, though, i mean, get won. don't you get the election won. don't you mean too badly? no, mean not lose it too badly? no, i the only way can do i mean, the only way you can do politics is aim to win. politics is to aim to win. >> yes. aim to resist. aim to stop. halfway. doesn't stop. aim to halfway. it doesn't work. win work. you've got to try and win that i think that election. and i think sometimes i have to say to my colleagues, you spend time colleagues, you spend more time discussing how to defeat discussing how to avoid defeat than do actually talking than you do actually talking about winning. when you're that negative, public see it. negative, the public can see it. they well, what's the they think, well, what's the point these people? all point of these people? yes, all they is surrender. they want to do is surrender. i say my colleagues, get on the say to my colleagues, get on the front foot, out into your front foot, get out into your constituencies and start really blasting that blasting this nonsense that labour believes in. net zero. the trans thing with safe spaces for women. all these things are really important. do you think

you a chance of you have a better chance of winning if bring back boris winning if you bring back boris to for the tories? to campaign for the tories? i would love to see boris come back and campaign because a very good it's to good campaigner, it's not to undermine leadership, undermine any leadership, it's just be great asset in just he'd be a great asset in your seat. >> i mean, you're a london >> i mean, you're in a london seat, know, it's a marginal seat. >> well, more think outside in >> well, more i think outside in that sense. >> work our own >> we've got to work our own sense london. issue sense in london. the big issue for seat is things like for us in my seat is things like ulez, which this present mayor, who i think one of the who i think is one of the weakest, spineless wares we've who i think is one of the weakhad, spineless wares we've who i think is one of the weakhad, introduces/ares we've who i think is one of the weakhad, introduces/ares for've ever had, introduces this for the wants it the money, and nobody wants it in north london because the environment clean there. environment is clean up there. we don't ulez . environment is clean up there. we don't ulez. he he he we don't need ulez. he he he pushed it on us. nobody i've met on the doorstep wants this. they want to get rid of it. and the conservative party the candidate, susan hall, is committed to getting rid of it literally, as she can on day 1 or 2, making enough headway, do you think? takes you think? well, it takes a little of time, really. you little bit of time, really. you know, it hasn't got time know, it hasn't got much time left, no she hasn't, but left, though. no she hasn't, but my agree she's my main point is i agree she's got more out there. we've got to be more out there. we've got to be more out there. we've got get behind but the got to get behind her. but the reality is the issues are the key that will decide the

key thing that will decide the mayoral i wouldn't say mayoral election. i wouldn't say he's of he's got an awful lot of character. reality character. so the reality is it's a campaign ideas it's a campaign between ideas and you will do. and and what you will do. and london's fed up with the extra costs that he's imposed on them. the divisive nature of what he does central london. and they does in central london. and they want actually says , want a mayor that actually says, let's get the economics of london right, because central london right, because central london is very damaged post lockdown and he's imposed the congestion charge and the ulez charge for seven days a week. people don't go to restaurants anymore and spend their money to the degree they did before in central london. >> we've literally got a minute left, if that, and just have a very quick chat about russia and china. grant very quick chat about russia and china. seemingly grant very quick chat about russia and china. seemingly under grant very quick chat about russia and china. seemingly under threat,t shapps seemingly under threat, but i'm wondering, know you but i'm wondering, i know you have hawkish on china. do have been hawkish on china. do you still think bigger you still think the bigger threat coming china than putin? >> yeah, i'm sanctioned by china because raise genocide of because i raise the genocide of the and they hated that. the uyghur and they hated that. so sanctioned and a few so they sanctioned me and a few others. i take a view about china, which is china is very wealthy , and it sits at the wealthy, and it sits at the heart of what i call this new axis of totalitarian states. so

china, north korea, russia , iran china, north korea, russia, iran is very close to china. and all this stuff over gaza was planned by iran. why we haven't proscribed the iranian revolutionary guard corps in london is to me an utter mystery. two banks shovelling money out to these extremists that exist in the uk. money out to these extremists that exist in the uk . we should that exist in the uk. we should stop that straight away. >> sir ian, thank you very much indeed for joining >> sir ian, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this indeed for joining me this morning. up next, i'm going to be labour's jonathan be joined by labour's jonathan ashworth. then be ashworth. and then i'll be speaking secretary of ashworth. and then i'll be speakfor secretary of ashworth. and then i'll be speakfor transport,:retary of ashworth. and then i'll be speakfor transport, markr of state for transport, mark harper. can things get any worse for party. stay tuned. for the tory party. stay tuned. you want to miss either you won't want to miss either of those interviews.

>> 2024 a battleground year. >> 2024 a battleground year. >> the year the nation decides. >> the year the nation decides. >> as the parties gear up their campaigns for the next general election. >> who will be left standing when the british people make one of the biggest decisions of their lives? >> who will rise and who will fall? let's find out together.

>> for every moment. the highs, the lows , the twists and turns. the lows, the twists and turns. >> we'll be with you for every step of this journey in 2024. >> gb news is britain's election channel. >> i'm andrew doyle join me at 7:00 every sunday night for free speech nation, the show where i tackle the week's biggest stories in politics and current affairs with the help my two affairs with the help of my two comedian panellists and a variety special guests, free variety of special guests, free speech sunday nights from speech nation sunday nights from seven on gb news, the people's channel seven on gb news, the people's channel, britain's news channel . channel, britain's news channel. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. much more to come. in the next hour i'm going to be joined by labour's shadow paymaster general, jonathan ashworth, transport ashworth, and transport secretary mark harper. i'll also be liberal be joined by the liberal democrats whip , wendy democrats chief whip, wendy chamberlin. here's chamberlin. but first, here's the tatiana sanchez.

the news with tatiana sanchez. >> camila. thank you. the top stories from the gp newsroom. senior tories have attempted to downplay claims of a conservative plot to replace rishi sunak as prime minister with penny mordaunt, report in the mail and the telegraph, say mps on the right of the party would like miss mordan to lead them into the next election in an effort to avoid, quote, catastrophic losses in the polls. former business secretary jacob rees—mogg denounced the idea as madness. dame andrea jenkyns, who's publicly backed installing a new leader before the election, denied knowledge of plans to anoint miss mordaunt in a coronation. the move would mean a fourth leader of the party in just five years. the ministry of defence says grant shapps was forced to abandon a trip to southern ukraine last week for security reasons. british intelligence warned of a credible missile threat from

russia, saying the kremlin had got wind of his visit. that's according to the sunday times. mr shapps was due to travel to odesa a day after a missile hit the city, while the ukrainian president and the greek prime minister were visiting. five people were killed in the explosions, according to ukrainian authorities . russians ukrainian authorities. russians are casting their ballots on the final day of voting for the country's next president, vladimir putin, who's been in power since 1999, is expected to win another six year terms with a landslide victory. the election comes just over two years since russia's invasion of ukraine. the first two days of the vote saw dozens of incidents of vandalism at polling stations, with several people detained across russia . councils detained across russia. councils will have to consider whether residents support low traffic neighbourhoods in their area before going ahead with the schemes. the draft guidance is due to come into force this summer. they're designed to encourage cycling and walking by

limiting driving inside roads, and include wider pavements and barriers to restrict vehicles. ltns often use signs and bollards to prevent traffic being able to drive along a certain route , as well as local certain route, as well as local residents, businesses and emergency services will also need to approve of the move . and need to approve of the move. and finally, a volcano in iceland has erupted for a fourth time in just three months. previous eruptions destroyed roads and forced a town to evacuate. if you're watching us on television right now, you'll be able to see fountains of molten rock soaring into the night sky from fissures into the night sky from fissures in the ground. authorities had warned for weeks that an eruption was imminent. just south of iceland's capital, reykjavik . for the latest reykjavik. for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen. or you can go to gb news. com slash alerts. now back to . camilla.

now back to. camilla. >> thanks, tatiana. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. still still show. even still lots more to come in just a minute. i'm going to be joined by labour's shadow paymaster general, jonathan ashworth, about possible return for about a possible return for diane abbott. then i'll be speaking the transport speaking to the transport secretary, harper , about secretary, mark harper, about the round of tory the latest round of tory leadership a leadership instability. a liberal democrat mp is finally joining us later on the programme , the party's chief programme, the party's chief whip, wendy chamberlain. could an with labour be an election pact with labour be on the cards? and i'll also be speaking an author and speaking to an author and commentator rob commentator called rob henderson, who's got a fascinating new book out about his childhood, his impoverished childhood, which very interesting which has got a very interesting take on the concept of white privilege. now i'm hoping that jonathan ashworth can hear me now he's the labour mp for leicester and the shadow leicester south and the shadow paymaster jonathan paymaster general. jonathan lovely to see you this morning. i keeping dry for us. >> us. >> i am trying to keep dry. it's very wet here, but i can hear

you and it's lovely to be on the show with you. this morning. >> well, likewise. so talk >> well, likewise. so let's talk about your general election betting then. it's not gone very well you, has it? it's not well for you, has it? it's not going to be a may election. so you're going to put some money on november election then . on a november election then. >> well think i'll put some >> well i think i'll put some money on tory leadership money on a tory leadership election . frankly, it election. frankly, isn't it absolutely chaos what is going on? and if you look at what's happenedin on? and if you look at what's happened in the last ten days, we've had the rishi sunak unveiling a £46 billion unfunded bombshell , a bombshell which bombshell, a bombshell which threatens the state pension. as we know it because it severs the link between your national insurance contributions and the pension you get at the end. just silver voices. yesterday in the daily express warning that this could mean to a tested could mean to a means tested pension . we've got the we've got pension. we've got the we've got the party being bankrolled the tory party being bankrolled by £10 million from a racist and refused to give that money back. >> tory mp why would you want to give the money back to a racist rishi sunak ? sorry, why would rishi sunak? sorry, why would you want to give £10 million

back racist ? back to a racist? >> well, they shouldn't hold on to that money, but i just think this shows that rishi sunak is not acting in the national interest. reckless , it's interest. it's reckless, it's irresponsible. he should name the day a general election the day of a general election and stabilise matters. at the moment more preoccupied moment he's more preoccupied with his own leadership and saving his own skin than governing in the national interest. and i think after 14 years, this is a pretty discredited government. he needs to name the day, i mean, but if he doesn't name the date soon, we could have a leadership election soon. >> right. well, perhaps, but >> all right. well, perhaps, but at the same time, why haven't you down proper solid you put down proper solid policies? i mean, you keep on telling the electorate to wait policies? i mean, you keep on tellinyoue electorate to wait policies? i mean, you keep on tellinyou cometorate to wait policies? i mean, you keep on tellinyou come upite to wait policies? i mean, you keep on tellinyou come up with» wait policies? i mean, you keep on tellinyou come up with your until you come up with your manifesto. there's been so much flip flopping from keir starmer that don't know that people don't really know what stands for. what that people don't really know what labour stands for. what that people don't really know what labour stand�*for?. what that people don't really know what labour stand�*for? mr�*iat does labour stand for? mr ashworth ? ashworth? >> well, we stand for growing our economy, raising living standards not just in one part of the country, but in every, every corner of the country. how

are you going to do that? >> more spend or. >> more tax, more spend or. >> more tax, more spend or. >> tell you, one of >> well, i'll tell you, one of the things we're going to do, we're going to help get people back to work. we'll start by fixing the national health service, there are service, where there are 7 million people on waiting million people on a waiting list. your will list. many of your viewers will be waiting longer and for be waiting longer and longer for treatment, see treatment, whether that's to see a or to get the operation for a gp or to get the operation for a gp or to get the operation for a hip operation or a knee operation or a hernia. perhaps that's because tories have that's because the tories have mismanaged for 14 years mismanaged the nhs for 14 years now. we're going to we're going to create more appointments in our nhs. >> how are you going to do that? financial ashworth, financial mr ashworth, i'm trying establish the trying to establish whether the labour are going to have labour party are going to have to put taxes up if they want to increase government spending. i assume you do increase assume you do want to increase government spending. first of all, we do want to see an injection into the nhs because we need to get the nhs back on its feet because your view, how are you going to pay for that? >> best quality treatment? >> the best quality treatment? well we were pay for it well we were going to pay for it by rid of a super by getting rid of a super wealthy tax break called the non—doms. tories have now

non—doms. the tories have now adopted our idea. yes, they copied our idea. >> they've shot fox on that >> they've shot your fox on that one, they? one, haven't they? >> they they >> well, they haven't, they haven't shot a fox as such, but they've completely revealed that it's the labour party leading the battle of ideas and that we're the party with a plan. and they. >> but the trouble is now you haven't got that money, have you, now because you had said that you were going to do lots of different by scrapping of different things by scrapping non—dom. don't that non—dom. you don't have that money. how you going to money. so how are you going to pay money. so how are you going to pay all of the pledges that pay for all of the pledges that you're make? that's you're going to make? that's what trying work out. you're going to make? that's whtyeah. trying work out. you're going to make? that's whtyeah. and g work out. you're going to make? that's whtyeah. and it's work out. you're going to make? that's whtyeah. and it's a/ork out. you're going to make? that's whtyeah. and it's a fair out. >> yeah. and it's a fair question. and rachel reeves our shadow chancellor, not she shadow chancellor, he's not she is with taxpayers is not casual with taxpayers money. she knows people work hard to for their and pay their taxes, and they want that money well spent . so we're. well spent. so we're. >> so you're not going to put taxes up . taxes up. >> we're going through the box and we're going to tell you how we will fund those commitments. the conservatives , in contrast, the conservatives, in contrast, have made a £46 billion unfunded commitment a bombshell. and they won't even tell you where the

money is coming from. well, i'll tell you where the money is coming from. it's probably coming from more tax on pensioners. probably pensioners. okay. it's probably coming from severing link. coming from severing the link. but minute. and the but hang on a minute. and the pension rachel reeves has said that would this ni cut. >> you're your own shadow chancellor has said she wouldn't reverse this. cut . so are reverse this. and i cut. so are you at odds with your own shadow chancellor ? chancellor? >> no. there's two things going on because we've long on here. because we've long warned that the tax burden on working is so high. i working people is so high. i mean, rishi sunak, i think he increased tax 25 times, didn't he? people really getting he? people are really getting hammered out there. we've said where tax working people where tax cuts on working people are sustainable and affordable. we support but what the we support them. but what the conservatives have said for the future is that they want to introduce a £46 billion unfunded bombshell . it severs the link bombshell. it severs the link between contribution and your state pension entitlement, and they will not tell you where that money is coming from . is it that money is coming from. is it borrowing with all the pressure that puts on mortgages? is it cuts the nhs or is it a new payroll tax?

>> but my point here, mr ashworth, is pensioners have to pay ashworth, is pensioners have to pay it. but this argument doesn't hold up does it? because rachel reeves reeves has said she supports this bombshell that you're about. you're talking about. she supports ni . supports the cut to ni. >> we're talking at cross purposes, camilla. there's been a national insurance change. now, if that is sustainable and affordable, that will have our support. this is about the future. this is about the future. >> okay. so in the future five years okay. so in the future, are you going to put national insurance up then are you going to tax up as well . to put tax up as well. >> no no no. what we are talking aboutis >> no no no. what we are talking about is the tory plan. they are saying they want to introduce £46 billion worth of a commitment , £46 billion worth of a commitment, and £46 billion worth of a commitment , and they cannot tell commitment, and they cannot tell you where the money is coming from. they can't you can't tell me where you're spending. >> commitments are going come >> commitments are going to come from . you can't me whether from. you can't tell me whether you're put tax up or you're going to put tax up or down. we've got your green prosperity about prosperity pledge. how about we try nail this down? what is try and nail this down? what is the current status of the 28 billion green prosperity pledge? what is what's happening to

that? >> we are, we are we are not. as you know, we're not spending 28 billion. but that was your own figure. we are making you we are making you this promise. we will tell you how we will fund all of our commitments. the tories won't even make you that promise. they will not even promise. they will not even promise to tell you how i understand this whole . understand this whole. >> i ask you a question, and then you ask me how the tories are to fund their are going to fund their promises. going to ask mark promises. i'm going to ask mark harper minute, so promises. i'm going to ask mark har|can minute, so promises. i'm going to ask mark har|can that minute, so promises. i'm going to ask mark har|can that part nute, so promises. i'm going to ask mark har|can that part ofte, so promises. i'm going to ask mark har|can that part of myo you can leave that part of my job me. out for it. job to me. look out for it. what? asking you, jonathan what? i'm asking you, jonathan ashworth, how going ashworth, is how you are going to spending pledges to to fund your spending pledges to answer. please do . i love answer. okay, please do. i love it when you retweet my material. but my question you is how but my question to you is how are labour going to fund? know are labour going to fund? i know you do . how are you going to you do. how are you going to fund spending pledges? fund your spending pledges? because the trouble is you have committed of different committed a load of different policies to scrapping non—dom, but you don't have that money anymore. you've also been pledging a lot to the windfall tax. so how are you going to make up the shortfall that you

thought you going have thought you were going to have to that non—dom money? to get that that non—dom money? there's black hole your there's a black hole in your plans isn't there ? plans here, isn't there? >> on the non—dom issue, rachel reeves has said very clearly we are going through the books line by line , and we will come out by line, and we will come out and we will publish how we are going to fund all of our plans will account for every penny piece . mark harper cannot give piece. mark harper cannot give you commitment he you that commitment when he comes show in a few comes on your show in a few moments, but you can't tell moments, but you can't even tell me whether going to cut me whether you're going to cut taxes whether you're going taxes or whether you're going to increase spending. >> even tell me >> you can't even tell me whether think tax is going whether you think tax is going to go up under to come down or go up under laboun to come down or go up under labour. can't even me labour. you can't even tell me that now . that right now. >> well, tax and spend are matters for our shadow chancellor and of course, we know that the conservatives are hoping have another budget hoping to have another budget before a general election. hoping to have another budget before ebriefing. election. hoping to have another budget before ebriefing that,:ion. hoping to have another budget before ebriefing that, and we they're briefing that, and we will want to look at the books very carefully, because we are not irresponsible with the pubuc not irresponsible with the public finances. we not public finances. we are not casual with the public finances. we happened with liz we saw what happened with liz truss. adopt a casual truss. when you adopt a casual approach public finances. approach to the public finances. so apologies for being so i make no apologies for being prudent the finances and

prudent with the finances and wanting everything , wanting to go for everything, every single item, every penny, piece line by piece of expenditure, line by line, because people work really hard. >> can we talk about diana abbott? >> and they want a they want a government that's going to be spending their money carefully. >> talk about diane >> can we talk about diane abbott? it going be abbott? is it going to be prudent to have diane abbott back party ? i know back in the labour party? i know angela rayner is calling for it. keir starmer isn't . so it seems keir starmer isn't. so it seems there's a bit of a there are odds the labour leader and his deputy on this issue, where do you stand on it. >> well, there is an independent process. i'm not going to second guess that independent process because what do you think though? >> what's your instinct? you've beenin >> what's your instinct? you've been in politics for a long time. >> i mean, i have been in politics for a long time, despite my youthful looks. and i also know that these processes, when they are independent, it is not appropriate to be for them to be pressured by politicians. and that's lots of people think she shouldn't be allowed back in the because she's made the party because she's made what some think are racist

remarks people . remarks about jewish people. >> so what's your instinct on it, you've been around the it, john? you've been around the block time . do you block a long time. do you think that abbott should have that diane abbott should have the yes or the labour whip restored? yes or no? a really simple no? it's a really simple question. it's right i >> -- >> well, it's quite right that she had the whip suspended and in a process began. and that process needs to take its course. and i'm not going to second guess or pressure that process because it's an independent process, because that not fair. is that would not be fair. why is this taking long? this taking so long? >> i mean, so >> i mean, not so straightforward . should she be straightforward. should she be in the labour party or shouldn't she ? she? >> are you going to? i'm not going to. you're going to keep asking me the same question, and i'm going to keep saying to you, if independent process, if it's an independent process, if it's an independent process, if don't answer if you don't answer the question, only you question, i can only assume you don't have an answer for it. >> i don't think i'm asking >> but i don't think i'm asking you anything complicated here. do abbott is a do you think diane abbott is a woman ? she's woman you've woman? she's a woman you've worked years. should worked with for years. should she be back in the party? what's your personal opinion ? your personal opinion? >> you do know what you're. you do know what you're asking me. i'm you, an

i'm telling you, it's an independent process. but you keep me because you keep asking it. me because you know get. let's try know that you'll get. let's try something the something else. answer the question. reality is, question. but the reality is, it's an answer. >> the question, don't think. >> the question, i don't think. >> the question, i don't think. >> has to it has to >> and it has to be. it has to be. that's because it's an independent. it's nothing to do be. that's because it's an inde|me.ent. it's nothing to do be. that's because it's an inde|me. and it's nothing to do be. that's because it's an inde|me. and ifs nothing to do be. that's because it's an inde|me. and if it'sything to do with me. and if it's independent, you shouldn't try to from outside. to pressurise it from outside. that's the point it being an that's the point of it being an independent process. >> about an >> all right. well, how about an independent >> all right. well, how about an independ second home. would you rayner a second home. would you advocate that we've got advocate that we've still got questions about questions to answer about whether she's paid an inadequate amount of capital gains tax. so should we have an independent inquiry into that. and then we might get some answers. >> there's no need to say the word independence with a hint of sarcasm. >> no, i love an independent inquiry, sir. >> are these important ? are >> are these important? are these processes take their course on angela rayner, as i understand it, she. i think she said i don't know if you were at the she did an event with the press on thursday. i wasn't there, but read comments there, but i read the comments that she said she'd taken expert advice the matter, you know, advice and the matter, you know, she, need she, she she doesn't need, need to it's all

to pay anything. and it's all resolved. not resolved, resolved. that's not resolved, though, it? understand, she though, is it? i understand, she said, resolved said, but it's not resolved because there still reports because there are still reports clamouring to explain herself. >> and seemingly unexplained >> and a seemingly unexplained potential tax potential capital gains tax bill. so it's far from resolved. that's why she keeps on being asked to answer questions about it. why doesn't she just answer the questions and then the matter might be resolved ? matter might be resolved? >> well, she did an event with the lobby on thursday. i the press lobby on thursday. i don't know if you went to it where she did answer questions on this and said that she's taken advice and the and, the issue is resolved. >> all right. final question on this vat on private school fees. i'm surprised that somebody like you and i know you very well would be supporting this policy, which seems to me to smack of sort of corbynista politics of envy nonsense . are you really envy nonsense. are you really seriously backing this, even though it could displace, as far as the independent schools council is concerned , 40,000 council is concerned, 40,000 private school pupils, you want to take these pupils out of

their schools, away from their friends, and accommodate them. where in the state sector exactly ? exactly? >> well, as you know, the public finances are a mess thanks to the 14 years of the conservatives, a mess, particularly because what the conservatives did with the liz truss budget. what was that, 18 months or so? >> yeah, we're talking about private school vat though. >> we're i know, but >> i know, but we're i know, but we've got to make some tough decisions. we're going to have to make tough decisions. to make some tough decisions. and of those tough decisions to make some tough decisions. arto of those tough decisions to make some tough decisions. arto levyyf those tough decisions to make some tough decisions. arto levy thatyse tough decisions to make some tough decisions. arto levy that vatough decisions to make some tough decisions. arto levy that vat on h decisions to make some tough decisions. arto levy that vat on the acisions is to levy that vat on the private school fees use the private school fees and use the money an expansion of money to fund an expansion of mental provision, because money to fund an expansion of me dol provision, because money to fund an expansion of me do know provision, because money to fund an expansion of me do know there's sion, because money to fund an expansion of me do know there's aon, because money to fund an expansion of me do know there's a huge cause problem. >> we're going to have to use the money to expand classrooms , the money to expand classrooms, aren't you? you're going aren't you? because you're going to pupils loose , to have 40,000 pupils at loose, possibly come september, if their parents pre—emptively are going take them out because going to take them out because they think they afford the they think they can't afford the fees. are you going to fees. so where are you going to put these kids temporary classrooms? >> i don't i'm not i don't agree with that. i think that with that. i don't i think that is exaggerated . frankly, i don't is exaggerated. frankly, i don't think see mass exodus think we'll see that mass exodus from schools . and i do from private schools. and i do think, though, we do to

think, though, we do have to make some decisions , and make some tough decisions, and that money fund an that money will fund an expansion mental health expansion of mental health provision in state schools for the majority of children, all right. >> jonathan ashworth, thank you very much indeed for braving the weather to speak to us this morning. it's been great to speak you. thank thank speak to you. thank you, thank you, thank you. just you, thank you. in just a minute, going to be speaking minute, i'm going to be speaking to the transport mark to the transport secretary, mark harper, talk of a harper, with yet more talk of a rival the tory rival bid for the tory leadership, could rishi be leadership, could rishi sunak be replaced

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battleground year. >> the year the nation decides as the parties gear up their campaigns for the next general election. >> who will be left standing when the british people make one of the biggest decisions of their lives ? who will rise and their lives? who will rise and who will fall? >> let's find out together for every moment. >> the highs, lows, the >> the highs, the lows, the twists and turns. >> we'll be with you for every step of this journey in 2024. >> gb news is britain's election . channel. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. mark harper, the transport secretary i hope, joins me now. he's also the conservative mp for the forest of dean. mr harper, i hope you can hear me. thank you very much indeed for your morning. thank you for your time this morning. can have this morning. can i have your reaction all, to this reaction first of all, to this polling in mail on sunday, polling in the mail on sunday, basically electoral basically predicting electoral calamity, a near extinction

event for conservatives event for the conservatives rishi sunak's plan isn't working, is it? mr harper ? working, is it? mr harper? >> well, look, i haven't seen the specifics of that polling, but look, the plan we've got is working . we've set out the prime working. we've set out the prime minister, set out a number of commitments. the first was commitments. the first one was to level of to drive down the level of inflation. we have absolutely done that. and it's now forecast to fall even further as we get the next few months . and the the next few months. and the other commitment was on stopping the boats. and in fact, tomorrow in parliament, conservative mps will have the opportunity to vote down all of the amendments passed in the house of lords by labour peers attempting to weaken that legislation . and weaken that legislation. and we'll have the opportunity to make sure we can strengthen it again , okay, and give us the again, okay, and give us the ability to get those flights to off rwanda. what's your prediction of organised prediction of the organised crime groups trafficking people over the channel? >> will those flights take >> when will those flights take off? what's your prediction, mr harper ? harper? >> well, look, we've got the legislation still to get through parliament. we're at the tail

end of that. so i hope that will be on the statute book very sooi'i. 500“. >> soon. >> approximate time frame. >> approximate time frame. >> working hard on. well, >> working very hard on. well, the home office has been working very making sure can very hard on making sure we can act as soon the legislation act as soon as the legislation is so i would we'd is there. so i would hope we'd be able to get that those flights the ground as soon flights off the ground as soon as possible. i'm not going to pick an arbitrary date, but look, we've made a lot of progress already. we've reduced the of people crossing progress already. we've reduced the channelof people crossing progress already. we've reduced the channel by3eople crossing progress already. we've reduced the channel by aople crossing progress already. we've reduced the channel by a third crossing progress already. we've reduced the channel by a third cro aing progress already. we've reduced the channel by a third cro a time the channel by a third at a time when european countries when other european countries have rapid rise. so we're have seen a rapid rise. so we're absolutely delivering that absolutely delivering on that commitment. and i think the pubuc commitment. and i think the public focus on public wants us to focus on delivering on commitments, not focusing in in newspapers. >> but you say that, but none of this is changing the situation for the conservatives being so far behind labour, none of this is moving the dial, as we say in the trade. we've now got talk in the trade. we've now got talk in the newspapers about a leadership change again, such as the lack of confidence in rishi sunak being able to win the next general election, that there's now talk of penny mordaunt being brought as yet tory brought in as yet another tory

leader . leader. >> well, well, look, i'm concentrating on doing my job and focusing on making the right decisions for the country. that's also what the prime minister is doing, not focusing on stories in the newspapers. he's making the right long term decisions for the country. the plan is delivering those results. and as we get through this year , you know, he said at this year, you know, he said at the beginning of this year, it was his working assumption. the election will be the second half of i'm confident the of the year. i'm confident the pubuc of the year. i'm confident the public that the economy public will see that the economy is in the direction is moving in the right direction . inflation is falling. they're getting real terms pay rises. we've been able to cut taxes in both the budget and the autumn statement that delivers a £900 tax cut for ordinary working people on an average income, and i think people will recognise that and that we'll get the credit. you don't change these opinion polls overnight. it does take time for that to work through . but i think we've got through. but i think we've got time to do that. and then the election of course, is a choice between party like that's

between a party like us that's got plan working and got a plan that's working and a labour party that hasn't got a plan that would take us back to square and i think that square one. and i think that choice, if tory tory mps choice, if tory mps, if tory mps don't confidence in rishi don't have confidence in rishi sunak, you can't blame the pubuc sunak, you can't blame the public if they don't have confidence in the prime minister ehhen >>i ehhen >> i mean, why are so many of these conservatives, so—called shy conservatives? why have i had sir iain duncan smith, the former party leader in the studio, earlier, talking about the fact that half of the electorate is undecided? the conservatives enough electorate is undecided? the co convincezs enough electorate is undecided? the co convince them enough electorate is undecided? the co convince them to enough electorate is undecided? the co convince them to vote enough electorate is undecided? the co convince them to vote for ough to convince them to vote for them. you haven't done enough to convince people to vote for you, mr harper. that's the problem. that's why you're also going to get annihilated in the may local elections, right ? elections, right? >> look, it's perfectly true that there is a record number of people at the moment who are undecided and don't know who they're going to vote for. so thatis they're going to vote for. so that is the opportunity for us. you're absolutely right. that group voters who haven't yet group of voters who haven't yet decided what they're going to do, many of whom will have voted for in we've to

for us in 2019, we've got to show them by the time of the election two things. we've got to show them that we've got a plan. the plan is working and it's delivering for them, and i think can see that it is on think we can see that it is on inflation on taxes. we've inflation and on taxes. we've also got show them that also then got to show them that the labour party doesn't have a plan will big risk. for plan and will be a big risk. for example, we know the labour party to spend £28 billion party wants to spend £28 billion on they've on their green plan. they've hidden the price tag now, but we jonathan ashworth accused you of having up. >> to be fair, jonathan ashworth has just been on accusing you of having a £46 billion black hole in your own finances because of the pledge you're making over the pledge you're making over the next five years on national insurance cuts . so how are you insurance cuts. so how are you going to fund those? well, look, that's nonsense. >> well , well, look that's >> well, well, look that's nonsense. quite nonsense. we've made it quite clear have an ambition clear that we have an ambition to the double taxation of to stop the double taxation of work . but we already have work. but we already have demonstrated. but we're only going deliver that when the going to deliver that when the pubuc going to deliver that when the public finances allow. and we've just demonstrated both at the budget and at the autumn statement, that we've been able

to take 4% off of national insurance contributions. that's a third reduction. and we did that at the same time as we were investing in public services , investing in public services, increasing people's pensions and investing extra money into the national health service so we can do all of these things because we've made the right long term decisions. so i think, frankly, labour's line is just a load of scaremongering. it also shows, having said that, they don't understand how the tax system works. >> well , system works. >> well, having said that, the national grid isn't scaremongering, harper scaremongering, is it? mr harper , when it says it's going to cost 60 billion at a conservative estimate to decarbonise by 2035? so again, i had iain duncan smith in the studio earlier talking about the cost of the government's net zero pledges. i mean, the costs of 60 billion at a bare of this 60 billion at a bare minimum, it's going to cost the general public billions of pounds, it ? pounds, isn't it? >> well, look, it's very important that we deliver on our climate change obligations.

people can see that the climate we are delivering on them, by the way. >> i mean, that is and we're delivering on them. we've found out this week britain's carbon emissions have fallen their emissions have fallen to their lowest level since 1879. yet it's making any difference it's not making any difference whatsoever to the world's temperature. why are you sticking to this net zero target when we're doing so well on carbon emissions already ? carbon emissions already? >> well, look, it is important that we reduce our carbon emissions for several reasons. firstly, for the climate, because, by the way, the change in the climate also puts a huge cost on the public sector. for example, my area of transport, we're having to spend a significant amount of money to make both the rail network and the road network more resilient to the extreme weather events we're getting. that's a cost on the taxpayer, which we need to deal with. but secondly , it's deal with. but secondly, it's also about making sure that we're no longer dependent on carbon sources of energy to get to us stop us being dependent, for example, on having to buy

fuel from countries like russia who use that to fuel their war machine, actually having more, carbon friendly sources of energy means we're more resilient, more protected from energy price hikes like the one we've seen over the last couple of years. so i think it's good for consumers. yes, we do have to invest money in the national grid, think that can be grid, but i think that can be afforded in usual way. the afforded in the usual way. the national invests a lot of national grid invests a lot of money in making sure it's resilient, think that's in resilient, and i think that's in the of consumers to the interests of consumers to make more independent, make us much more independent, energy independent. >> obviously, there's this move to drive electric to get people to drive electric vehicles currently, as it stands, your stands, mr harper, your transport secretary. so you should know the answer to this. how many electric vehicle charging are there charging points are there in the uk . uk. >> so we've just driven up. well it depends what you mean by charging points. most people with electric vehicle with an electric vehicle actually charge their vehicle at home. yes, we're obviously when they're out on the road, how many are the points ? we're we're many are the points? we're we're going to need an increasing number of charging points

publicly. we drove up the number of charging points in the last year by 43. the charge point industry has about £6 billion worth of capital available to roll that over the next few years, so we're very confident that as the number of electric vehicles increases and there are over a million on the roads already, there will be charge points both at motorway service areas. how many are there currently out and about in public? well, i don't know . well public? well, i don't know. well i don't know the precise number but it increased by 43% last yeah but it increased by 43% last year. well i don't know because it increased by 43% last year. i know, but you know how many electric vehicles are on the road. >> so there's a million electric vehicles and many people are saying they're struggling to find charging points. so how many there and how many many are there and how many should be? should there be? >> that well well, the >> well, that well well, the point about charging points is the grew by 43% last the number grew by 43% last yeah the number grew by 43% last year. it's increasing every day of the week. it's increasing every day of the week. and are what increasing numbers at

motorway service? i don't know the precise number. i just said that it increased by 43% last yeah that it increased by 43% last year. most. how many should there be? and we're going to make sure there are. well, there are going to be an increasing number as we see an increased number as we see an increased number of cars on the roads. most people charge at home and that will continue to be the case. >> but how many do you think we need to sustain this? how many do you think we need to have? what's what number would you put on you're the transport secretary. >> it depends on the mix >> well, it depends on the mix that you have. so for example , that you have. so for example, we're seeing an increasing number of fast chargers available . that means you don't available. that means you don't need as many of those as you do with slower chargers. the technology is developing of technology is developing all of the time . we've set out rules so the time. we've set out rules so that there'll be competitive charging available at motorway service areas, so people will have choice of chargepoint have a choice of chargepoint operators. we're being clear about transparency on pricing and the number of charge points

is increasing every day. but as i said, most people charge at home. but we're making sure there will be charge points available publicly and at motorway service areas so people have the confidence they can charge their vehicles wherever have the confidence they can charggo.1eir vehicles wherever they go. >> em- they go. >> mark harper, thank >> all right, mark harper, thank you much indeed joining you very much indeed for joining me morning . me this morning. >> thank you very much, camilla. >> thank you very much, camilla. >> thank you very much, camilla. >> thank you. thank you. next, i'm going to be joined by a liberal democrat at last. we don't on the don't often see them on the show, but wendy chamberlain, who's chief whip, who's the party's chief whip, is going be joining going to be joining

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm joined now by wendy chamberlain, the liberal democrat mp for nonh the liberal democrat mp for north east fife and the lib dems chief whip and spokesperson for work and pensions. she's at the spnng work and pensions. she's at the spring conference, which i believe in york. tell us believe is in york. tell us about spring conference. about the spring conference. wendy, what's going be the wendy, what's going to be the main announcement there from the lib ? lib dems? >> well, ed davey is appealing

this afternoon to give his keynote speech, and he's talking specifically about the nhs and social care, which, as you all know , from from viewers. and know, from from viewers. and certainly what i hear on the doorsteps is a key concern for, for voters as we approach the general election . general election. >> it's more spending for the nhs indeed a social care nhs and indeed a social care plan. one of the lib dem priorities, do you think, come this general election ? this next general election? >> well, we certainly want to see more spending in the nhs, but what we want to see is a real focus on social care and indeed what ed davey is calling for is some cross—party work on that, because regardless of the colour of government colour of the government that comes after the next comes into power after the next election, social care is, is, is increasingly becoming a crisis for the nhs. i've done a lot of work, camilla, on unpaid carers and the whole system would fall down them. i passed a down without them. i passed a private member's last private member's bill last session so we need to session on that so we need to really start focusing on this as an issue because people don't think about it until it starts to affect them. when you talk

about cross party collaboration there, wendy, do you that there, wendy, do you think that it's too political? >> you think the nhs and >> do you think that the nhs and indeed of social care indeed the issue of social care should be taken out of politics altogether ? altogether? >> well, there's no >> well, i think there's no doubt our politics has doubt that our politics has become increasingly divisive. i was elected in 2019, and there's no doubt that since brexit it has become more difficult to find consensus. and in some ways westminster is set up to produce conflict . but on some of these conflict. but on some of these key issues, i think, you know, people expect politicians to be the grownups in the room and really tackle some of the challenges. now it's over to keir starmer and rishi sunak. whether they take up that offer to discuss from ed, but i certainly know that he's coming to the table and genuinely on that, because it's something that, because it's something that cares very passionately about. >> how are the liberal democrats doing at the moment? i mean, you could argue that you're perhaps getting squeezed out the getting squeezed out of the political bit, only political debate a bit, not only because of arguments that because of the arguments that are going on between the tories and labour, is the case, are going on between the tories anythe bour, is the case, are going on between the tories anythe two, is the case, are going on between the tories anythe two main. the case, are going on between the tories anythe two main parties,e case, are going on between the tories anythe two main parties, butse,

as the two main parties, but also reform bringing also because of reform bringing up rear. up the rear. >> well, i'm obviously a scottish mp, camilla, so i'll be looking to the snp as well . but looking to the snp as well. but in terms of reform, yes, we're seeing an increase in support for them in the polls. but as we found out painfully in 2019, it's not about the number of votes get. increased our votes you get. we increased our votes you get. we increased our vote share by, you know, a number of percent and over a million votes in but million votes in 2019, but delivered we're really delivered 11 mps. we're really focussed on delivering the highest number of mps that we can. and i think the challenge for reform is can they actually deliver any mps? i think they're going to cause real difficulty for the conservatives, but i don't think they're actually going any mps . at the don't think they're actually goinof any mps . at the don't think they're actually goinof the any mps . at the don't think they're actually goinof the day, any mps . at the don't think they're actually goinof the day, that's/ips . at the don't think they're actually goinof the day, that's what at the end of the day, that's what first the post as a system first past the post as a system does indeed. first past the post as a system doealthough you support >> although would you support scrapping first past the post? i suppose the liberal democrats might with might find agreement with nigel farage wendy farage on that one issue. wendy >> yeah, absolutely. make votes matter. has a good systems agreement on electoral reform, which both reform and the liberal democrats are signed up to. and, you know, if you want to. and, you know, if you want to see better consensus across

politics, to make politics, you need to make politicians together and politicians work together and electoral reform would help you to do that, i noted yesterday that the reform announced that the reform party announced a alliance with some a sort of alliance with some partners in northern ireland. and inevitably, the question is going to whether the going to come as to whether the liberal democrats, if you do manage as you they're pledged to increase your vote share, might be in a position to prop up a starmer government is a deal with labour something that you'd like to consider ? like to consider? >> i mean, camilla, i'm not going to talk about what comes afterwards . i'm going to talk afterwards. i'm going to talk about being focussed on the third, third party third, being the third party back westminster and back at westminster and delivering liberal delivering as many liberal democrat possible . from democrat mps as possible. from a northern perspective, democrat mps as possible. from a northernalready perspective, democrat mps as possible. from a northernalready perour:tive, democrat mps as possible. from a northernalready perour sister alliance already are our sister party, so we work closely with stephen farry in the house of commons. now >> enough. final question >> fair enough. final question for wendy. now know for you, wendy. now i know you've been on my show before and delighted have as and i'm delighted to have you as eveh and i'm delighted to have you as ever. why won't sir davey ever. why won't sir ed davey come is he missing a come on gb news, is he missing a trick here, do you think? >> well, think we always will >> well, i think we always will take the opportunities where to appeah take the opportunities where to appear, can. i think we appear, where we can. i think we just need asking the just need to keep asking the

press i'm delighted to just need to keep asking the pre here. i'm delighted to just need to keep asking the prehere. i i'm delighted to just need to keep asking the prehere. i was i'm delighted to just need to keep asking the prehere. i was here delighted to just need to keep asking the prehere. i was here inalighted to just need to keep asking the prehere. i was here in the ited to be here. i was here in the autumn and back here again. autumn and i'm back here again. >> all right, well, look, good luck dem spring luck at the lib dem spring conference in york today. and luck at the lib dem spring conferyou in york today. and luck at the lib dem spring conferyou very ork today. and luck at the lib dem spring conferyou very muchiay. and luck at the lib dem spring conferyou very much indeedi luck at the lib dem spring conferyou very much indeed for thank you very much indeed for your time this morning. up, your time this morning. next up, i'm be speaking to my i'm going to be speaking to my fellow host, michael i'm going to be speaking to my fellow and host, michael i'm going to be speaking to my fellow and then )st, michael i'm going to be speaking to my fellow and then rob michael portillo, and then rob henderson, will join me to henderson, who will join me to chat about new book, chat about his new book, troubled, of foster troubled, a memoir of foster care, and social

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. michael portillo is up at 11 am. just after this show, so please stay tuned for that. michael, tell us what's coming up on your show. >> good morning. camilla. well the sunday papers tell us that the sunday papers tell us that the minister's authority the prime minister's authority is away. and i to is ebbing away. and i want to ask my whether any event ask my panel whether any event or development could possibly make things better for the conservatives we'll also be looking at the elections in russia . and the question there russia. and the question there is really whether the opposition

can do anything at all to challenge the legitimacy of these sham elections. turning to these sham elections. turning to the arts, we're thinking about the arts, we're thinking about the rex whistler mural in the tate britain, which was closed down a few years ago because it was regarded by some people as being racist . it's now being racist. it's now reopening, but alongside it there is going to be another display, which is basically a video discussing racism . is that video discussing racism. is that the way forward for works of art that are now regarded as controversial, at burley house, which is the house of the cecil family, the head of a woman was found by a mechanical digger. i'm pleased to say that it's 1800 years old and it's made of stone. it is, in fact, roman. but it was 300 yards from the house. so we're going to look into the mystery of a roman head found at burley house. and it is coming up to the equinox. in coming up to the equinox. and in iran it is the custom to celebrate the end of the winter and the coming of the light and

the warmth. and we're going to be celebrating with masses of iranian food. >> sounds absolutely intriguing . >> sounds absolutely intriguing. thank you very much, michael. we look forward to that at 11:00. in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to rob henderson , be speaking to rob henderson, who new book who will discuss his new book and why he invented the and tell me why he invented the worm but first, worm luxury beliefs. but first, here's weather update. here's a quick weather update. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello. very good morning to you. it is a beautiful start to the weekend out there. >> for many of us, but not for all. it's already turning cloudy in the west and there will be spells of rain and showers spreading across the country throughout the day. now scotland , northern and eastern england keep the bright skies into the afternoon, but elsewhere we have got those showers and the thickening cloud, the rain most persistent across northern ireland, that persistent rain reaching parts of western

scotland by the middle of the afternoon, and certainly turning cloudy in many places as a result. and after a fresh start to the day, it's not going to be as mild as it has been recently in the south. but it will be a touch milder across northern scotland, feeling more pleasant with lighter and some with lighter winds and some bright nevertheless, bright spells. nevertheless, overnight those spells of rain across the country heavy and persistent for a time, particularly across western hills, and by dawn , really it's hills, and by dawn, really it's a showery picture with a lot of cloud in the sky and an increased breeze as well. so as a result, a frost free start tomorrow. temperatures of 9 or 10 celsius first thing, but it will be a gloomy start with a lot of low cloud covering hills and coasts and we're going to see those outbreaks of rain steadily push eastwards . by the steadily push eastwards. by the afternoon. the clouds do lift and break up and as a result we'll see some brighter interludes. but we'll also see some heavy showers developing just about anywhere could see a hefty downpour , but western hefty downpour, but western scotland and northern ireland seeing rain at

seeing more persistent rain at times, looks like things are heating . heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show now! commentator and author rob henderson joins me now to discuss his new book, troubled a memoir of foster care, social class . care, family and social class. lovely to see you this morning, rob. thanks for coming in. good morning. it's fascinating morning. it's a fascinating book. mean, your book. this because, i mean, your life story so far has been extraordinary, really. you go from foster care to foster care. you're living in desperate poverty. really, a huge amount of adversity you have to overcome. and yet, regardless of all of the challenges that life throws at you, you end up at yale university in the us. how on earth did that happen? what do you it down to, there do you put it down to, there were a variety of different factors , one you know, factors, but one was, you know, i of the that the milieu i got out of the that the milieu i got out of the that the milieu i was in as soon as i could and enlisted in the us air force and when i was 17. so as soon as i

graduated high school, i had to have my adoptive mother sign a permission because was permission slip because i was still underage. she allowed me to the air force . and to go off to the air force. and then from there, i turned my life around and managed to life around and yeah, managed to get into yale of all places and then at cambridge then obtained a phd at cambridge . and there a variety . and yeah, there were a variety of forces, but that of different forces, but that was key, that was really the key, that decision put myself an decision to put myself in an environment where could learn environment where i could learn discipline and motivation and leadership those things. >> i mean, lots of people often look to the military and people sometimes say, you know, bring back national service. it might be a way of kind of getting gen 2. be a way of kind of getting gen z, know, back the z, you know, back into the spirit of working a living spirit of working for a living and hard and being and trying hard and being aspirational. mean, you aspirational. i mean, do you agree that? military is agree with that? the military is not everyone, guess. not for everyone, i guess. >> think national >> i mean, i think the national service certain service might work in certain contexts, in israel or contexts, like in israel or south korea, when there are serious national security threats in the us context or the uk . i'm not entirely uk context. i'm not entirely convinced simply because, you know, completely different , know, completely different, different geopolitically in terms of defence, you know, it doesn't have to be the military.

i am thinking that, you know, beyond the military, there could beyond the military, there could be other forms of national service, peace or service, the peace corps or something those lines something along those lines of, you just to inspire you know, just trying to inspire young broaden their young people to broaden their honzons young people to broaden their horizons some life horizons and learn some life skills of help them skills and sort of help them bndge skills and sort of help them bridge that transition into adulthood. there may be something doesn't something there. it doesn't necessarily military. was a sense, though? >> was there a sense, though? and always intrigued this and i'm always intrigued by this when people's when i hear about people's really of life really challenging sort of life stories that rob henderson, rob as was always as an individual, was always going triumph, that you had going to triumph, that you had something meant that something in you that meant that you were going to seize the very few opportunities you were few opportunities that you were given. i mean, is this a case of sort of personality? is it a case of circumstance? and what do it down to? do you put it down to? >> i mean, both of things >> i mean, both of those things are always a factor, sort of your intrinsic your innate intrinsic characteristics and the forces around you and external, you know , context. but a lot of it, know, context. but a lot of it, you know, i mean, those two things are important. there's an element as well . i was element of luck as well. i was behaving, you know, extremely recklessly in the book i write about teenage i was about my teenage years, i was doing drugs. i was drinking and driving i getting driving a lot. i was getting into fights, vandalising buildings, kind of the things that wayward young kids do when

they lot of they don't have a lot of supervision oversight and supervision or oversight and live fatherless homes so live in fatherless homes and so on, i think that part of it on, but i think that part of it was just, a bit of self—reflection , a little bit of self—reflection, a little bit of mentorship from some of the teachers and people around me that helped. and that was one reason why i actually joined the military. actually, there was a male teacher who suggested it, and then one of my friend's father. so in book i write father. so in the book i write about i actually moved out father. so in the book i write ab my i actually moved out father. so in the book i write ab my adoptive :ually moved out father. so in the book i write ab my adoptive :ually myhouse ut of my adoptive parents house when 16, moved in with my when i was 16, moved in with my friend and his brother and his father for reasons explained . father for reasons i explained. and his father had also been in the air force. and you know, the air force. and so, you know, there these sort of male there were these sort of male older in life and older figures in my life and i think having some mentorship and some of you know, people some sort of you know, people who can guide your life decisions that can help well. decisions that can help as well. >> we about kind >> well, can we talk about kind of because, these of father figures because, these days it's difficult to sort of talk about this issue. the issue of fatherless ness without being criticised, without people of fatherless ness without being criticiseoh,/ithout people of fatherless ness without being criticiseoh, you're people of fatherless ness without being criticiseoh, you're just)le of fatherless ness without being criticiseoh, you're just trying saying, oh, you're just trying to stigmatise single parent families. but at the same time , families. but at the same time, it shines throughout this book that you didn't have these

that if you didn't have these male role models along the way, you not be where you are you might not be where you are today. >> yeah, i think it's a real shame that we can't speak about this issue you simply this issue, you know, simply because, you know, the issue around fatherless homes is primarily concentrated , not primarily concentrated, not entirely, but mostly concentrated in low income communities, places where there's a lot of sort of disrepair and poverty and i'd look one of the number one predictors of social mobility in the us and the uk is coming from a two parent family, you know, the only really sort of bright spot life was , you spot in my early life was, you know, funny it wasn't know, funny enough, it wasn't having father in the home. it having a father in the home. it was just having two parents. i explain in book, my explain in the book, my, my adoptive temporarily explain in the book, my, my ad a itive temporarily explain in the book, my, my ada relationship temporarily explain in the book, my, my ada relationship withtemporarily explain in the book, my, my ada relationship with amporarily explain in the book, my, my ada relationship with a womany explain in the book, my, my ada relationship with a woman , in a relationship with a woman, and were together and they and they were together and they were one another. were committed to one another. and they helped raise me and and they helped to raise me and my adoptive sister. that was my adoptive sister. and that was really and really important for me. and there were kind of male there were these kind of male role around, it's role models around, and it's important, i think though important, i think even though i didn't father, didn't have a father, i mentioned, you know, these other people life that really people in my life that really did sort contribute did help to sort of contribute and, sort of sort and, you know, sort of sort of tweak of my, my intuitions

tweak some of my, my intuitions about what a good life should be. >> can you tell me about you coining the phrase luxury beliefs? because i think it's really interesting, this idea that say , your average that say, your average university educated , i don't university educated, i don't know, just stop oil protester obviously lives this life of luxury, but is calling for policies that actually make the poor poorer. just tell us about how you came up with that phrase and what it really means. >> well, so luxury beliefs are ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class, while inflicting costs on the lower classes. and a core feature of a luxury belief is that the believer is sheltered from the consequences of his or her belief, and. and this idea came to me when i arrived at yale as an undergraduate, so i was 25 years old. by this point, you know, i'd spent my early life in foster homes and different kinds of family arrangements, left for the military and then set foot on campus in this sort of rarefied , elite university as a rarefied, elite university as a slightly older person compared

to a lot of my peers. and i would just listen to the students, the undergrads, grad students, the undergrads, grad students, professors, administrators, you know, people who had graduated from these kinds of universities. i worked at stanford . and, you know, at stanford. and, you know, i was just of spent the last was just sort of spent the last few sort of immersed in few years sort of immersed in the university the elite university environment. and hear environment. and i would hear these newfangled beliefs about you know, defunding the police or of or denigrating the importance of family or, you know, promoting addictive technology and often at the expense of people who are sort of lower down the socioeconomic ladder. i mean, the defund the police one is a very easy way to understand this. but yeah, they just stop oil or blocking traffic for people who are way to people who are on their way to their to 5 jobs, they can't their 9 to 5 jobs, they can't clock to in work. their 9 to 5 jobs, they can't clo

>> yeah, well, you can see this. i i cite statistics in the i mean, i cite statistics in the book. there representative book. there were representative survey , you know, collected survey data, you know, collected in the us. and when you break down the results by income group, the highest income americans most americans were the most supportive the police. supportive of defund the police. college educated were college educated people were more defunding more likely to support defunding the educated the police than less educated people. a result, people. and yeah, as a result, violent crime spiked, homicide rates increased. and those those, victims were primarily people who were poor, marginalised, dispossessed from from these communities. and there's never been sort of a reconciliation and apology, and we've just sort of moved on and attempted to pretend like that actually never happened. >> and also, you've got a theory around the phrase white privilege, or at least its widespread use in campuses. >> well, you know, i find that oftentimes the people who are the most enthusiastic about the white privilege idea or who like to talk about their own privilege are sort of white upper upper middle class college graduates elite universities. graduates of elite universities. and, you know, it's interesting because it's about because ostensibly it's about them expressing, you know,

feelings of, of guilt or remorse. but oftentimes what happens is they sort of elevate their own status in the eyes of their own status in the eyes of their peers, because then the people around them, other elite university graduates say, oh, yes, it. this yes, this person gets it. this person understands that they have privilege, have all this privilege, and then up elevating their then they end up elevating their reputation esteem in then they end up elevating their repleyes n esteem in then they end up elevating their repleyes of esteem in then they end up elevating their repleyes of others. esteem in then they end up elevating their repleyes of others. butteem in then they end up elevating their repleyes of others. but when n the eyes of others. but when white privilege policies are implemented, going to implemented, it's not going to be elite university graduates that are harmed. it's going to be working class white people, poor white people who are attempting achieve a bit of attempting to achieve a bit of success in their own lives and achieve upward mobility. achieve some upward mobility. they're are going they're the ones who are going to blocked policies, you to be blocked by policies, you know, attempting this know, attempting to inhibit this bizarre of white privilege. >> well, it's all in new >> well, it's all in this new book, troubled of book, troubled a memoir of foster and social foster care, family and social class. robbie. it's a great, great and we do recommend great book. and we do recommend people read because it people to have a read because it challenges of the, i would people to have a read because it chalvirtual of the, i would people to have a read because it chalvirtual signallingie, i would people to have a read because it chalvirtual signalling that nould say, virtual signalling that we've witnessed in the past ten years. thank very much for years. thank you very much for coming this morning. lovely coming in this morning. lovely to thank rob and to see you. thank you to rob and of all my guests to see you. thank you to rob and of i'm all my guests to see you. thank you to rob and of i'm going my guests to see you. thank you to rob and of i'm going to' guests to see you. thank you to rob and of i'm going to be |ests to see you. thank you to rob and of i'm going to be back next today. i'm going to be back next week as usual on sunday. week at 930, as usual on sunday. but michael portillo up next

but michael portillo is up next and a great show and he's got a great show planned you

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sunday with michael portillo. as we hurtle towards the spring equinox and look forward towards longer days, let us illumine at your noontide with flashes of arts, culture, politics and world affairs. rishi sunak and the conservative party can perceive no light at the end of the tunnel , yet are headed for the tunnel, yet are headed for a train wreck. the newspapers report that the prime minister's authority is ebbing away, it authority is ebbing away, and it is suggested that penny mordaunt should replace him, having lost the former deputy party chairman to the reform party ever to the reform party with ever more senior members of parliament standing down at the election. as some polls put the tories almost 30 behind tories almost 30 points behind labouh tories almost 30 points behind labour, could any event short of an asteroid reverse the government's fortunes, with two tax cuts in the last six months, falling inflation and energy pnces falling inflation and energy prices reduced crossings of the engush prices reduced crossings of the english channel. why does sunak receive no credit ? an excellent receive no credit? an excellent political panel will discuss all that. political panel will discuss all that . one incumbent does not that. one incumbent does not fear defeat voters in russia have been variously coaxed, cajoled and coerced into the