starts now. i'll also be joined by trenchant panel this evening. the barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes and the author and broadcaster michael craig . as broadcaster michael craig. as evenl broadcaster michael craig. as ever, i want to hear from you . ever, i want to hear from you. it's the most important part of the programme. email me. male mog gbnews.com but now it's time for the news with smith . for the news with rory smith. >> thank you very much. jacob bbc presenter jeremy vine has put pressure on his unnamed colleague at the centre of two sets of allegations suggesting it may be time for him to go public. it comes as a second person has come forward to make a complaint against the bbc presenter accused of paying for sexually explicit photos . the sexually explicit photos. the broadcaster says it spoke to a person in their early 20s who claims they were sent a number of threatening messages by the host after they were allegedly contacted by the presenter for on a dating app. the person says

they were put under pressure to meet the bbc star, but never did. speaking to the bbc, the second young person who's not involved in the previous payments for photos allegation says they remain scared by the power the presenter holds . well, power the presenter holds. well, separately, the bbc has published details of its highest paid stars as part of its annual report . gary paid stars as part of its annual report. gary lineker remains the corporation's top paid presenter, taking home more than £1.35 million. as zoe ball is the highest paid female presenter , earning more . than presenter, earning more. than £980,000. the nato chief has announced allies have agreed to three steps to bring ukraine closer to membership. jens stoltenberg says 11 nations will start training ukraine pilots to fly f—16 jets. they have also removed the requirement for a membership action plan making ukraine's path to becoming a

nato country easier for will. in addition to this, there will create a ukraine nato council for consultation and decision making , with the first meeting making, with the first meeting set to be held tomorrow. joe biden's former chief of staff, susan platt, told gb news the nato membership will not happen until the conflict is over. us has done everything they can in support of the war in ukraine against what putin's army. >> and we'll continue to do that. i think there's time for everything and i think it's great that we now have really a pretty much of a brick wall by including finlan and sweden. thank you to mr erdogan joining the nato alliance against russia . a romanian people smuggler has been jailed for 12 years and seven months for the manslaughter of 39 vietnamese migrant . in manslaughter of 39 vietnamese migrant. in 2019. >> 55 year old marius draghi fled the country after the bodies of migrants were

discovered in a container. they were being transported from belgium to essex by ferry. the high court judge described the roguish as the organisers right hand man mortgage rates have hit their highest level in 15 years, surpassing figures seen in the aftermath of last year's mini—budget. the average rate on a two year fixed deal is now 6.66. the highest level since 2008. the bank of england raised its benchmark rate to 5% last month in an effort to bring down inflation on tv , online, dab+ inflation on tv, online, dab+ radio and on tune in. this is gb news. nato. it's back to . news. nato. it's back to. jacob it was in 1909 when an asquith led liberal government with lloyd george as chancellor

attempted to pass what was called the people's budget new taxes that targeted wealthy landowners to fund welfare reforms. >> it was the first budget that explicitly intended to redistribute wealth . the lower redistribute wealth. the lower rate of tax was to increase to 3.75, and the higher rate to 5. what glory days.7 the house of lords being full of wealthy landowners naturally objected to it and took an entire year and two general elections for the commons to overrule the lords , commons to overrule the lords, with the consequence being the parliament act of 1911. now whilst the lords may have been on the right side of history in the matter of not raising taxes, it was on the wrong side of peers against the people and it's not on the right side of history today. and it should remember what happened in 1911. today the commons voted on the 20 amendments made to the government's illegal migration bill and other than some minor concessions to conservative backbenchers, the commons has bounced back the lords amendments with big majorities

is fundamentally the function of the house of lords is one of detail and process. when legislation passes through to the upper chamber, its primary role is to ensure that the legislation is properly written. thatis legislation is properly written. that is to say that it's a statutory instrument that has an affirmative rather than a negative process that depher tails of legislation, not the policy. the policy is for the democratic house, but the lords amendments to the illegal migration bill are of a substantial politic nature rather than ones of constitutional propriety . and by constitutional propriety. and by acting in this way, it's pushing the boundaries of conventions and bear in mind we don't have a codified constitution. we have one based on conventions . and one based on conventions. and this is part of a broader attempt at trend from the upper house. we've discussed it on the program before . the lords seemed program before. the lords seemed to have a problem with the conservatives , especially since conservatives, especially since brexit. since 2016, the government has lost more than half of its votes in the house of lords, 350 defeat in six

years in the preceding six years the number was 160. so it's more than doubled and a lot of that was around brexit. and now on migration, an issue where the elected chamber has considerable pubuc elected chamber has considerable public support bakhmut and therefore the lords should be a especially careful. the salisbury convention strictly the salisbury addison convention indicates that the house of lords should not oppose manifesto policies, while the conservative manifesto of 2019 states that we intend to take control of immigration and the obstruction by the lords is in opposition to a clear democratic mandate . and it's also something mandate. and it's also something thatis mandate. and it's also something that is urgent because people are arriving ing illegally by boat every day and it's costing you, the taxpayer, money and the billions of pounds, half £1 million a day just to reserve spaces in hotels, £3 billion a yean spaces in hotels, £3 billion a year, annual cost more than 13,000 people have crossed the

channel already this year. but ultimately, the people always win in battles with the peers , win in battles with the peers, and the lords must remember that the parliament act of 1911 explicitly states its intention to substitute for the house of lords as it presently exists. a second chamber constituted on a popular instead of an hereditary basis, the sword of damocles has dangled over the unelected upper chamber for 112 years. but how long will the horsehair hold .7 as long will the horsehair hold? as always, i want to know what you think. mal mogg at gbnews.com and now i think, are we going to surbiton to hear from ray addison on what's been going on there in immigration problem? apparently. allegedly but ray, perhaps you can fill us in on all the details as . good evening all the details as. good evening , jacob. >> yes, tensions were running high here earlier at the crowne plaza hotel in surbiton. there was around about 150 protesters gathered ing to protest at the

housing of afghan migrants here in the hotel . that's understood in the hotel. that's understood there's around about 120 have been housed here for around the last three years now . there was last three years now. there was also a much smaller pro migration protest. you can hear and see them behind me now gathered. they remained whilst the original protesters have actually left. now, we did receive a statement from the home office. they said we take the welfare and safety of those in our care incredibly seriously , like to apologise for the language that you're hearing from some of the antifa crowd here. obviously we have no control over that kind of language. i'll continue with the statement. the uk has made an ambitious and generous commitment to help at risk people in afghanistan , and so people in afghanistan, and so far we have brought around 24,600 people to safety, including thousands of people eligible for our afghan resettlement schemes. i think best if i hand back to you now,

jacob. >> refugees are welcome for that. >> i hope people could hear some of it . i've always thought of of it. i've always thought of surbiton as being the place where the good life took place, so it's rather surprising to have riotous behaviour taking place where such respectability used to reside . but to go to the used to reside. but to go to the piers versus the people. michael it's a bit snobbish , that it's a bit snobbish, that remark, isn't it? >> anyway, yes. so we're respectability . respectability. >> we've got all these people respectability resides everywhere. swearing in the background , swearing, swearing background, swearing, swearing in the background on live television. think it's television. wicked. i think it's perfectly legitimate. do you support that protest ? i believe support that protest? i believe in the right of freedom of speech and free protest. they weren't blocking roads. weren't blocking the roads. they weren't blocking the roads. they weren't inconvenience weren't causing inconvenience to anybody. people anybody. i'm not against people protesting , but that's not what protesting, but that's not what we're here to discuss. we're discuss, the discuss, piers, versus the people the number of people. double the number of defeats in the last six years. the figures at the end of 2022 for the government than they were in the previous six years. the lord seems to have become hyper political . hyper political. >> i think there's some truth in

that. i think they would argue that. i think they would argue that there sorting out the messy, immoral bits of your legislation, presumably , given legislation, presumably, given what you said earlier, you're now telling you will now tell conservative peers in the house of lords that if labour come to power, they must not overturn any policies of the next labour government. >> oh well, i think i think the conventions are fundamental. very important. >> so you would say. so we got the headline. rees—mogg says to starmer government, you're okay, lord shouldn't. >> it depends. there very >> it depends. there are very clear the lords has >> it depends. there are very clright the lords has >> it depends. there are very clright to the lords has >> it depends. there are very clright to ask the lords has >> it depends. there are very clright to ask the the lords has >> it depends. there are very clright to ask the government s >> it depends. there are very clright to ask the government to a right to ask the government to think again. these are fundamental constitutional ones. so blair wanted go so when tony blair wanted to go to imprisonment without to 90 days imprisonment without trial, fundamental change in our constitution, the lords was absolutely right to say think again when it's a matter of day to day routine politics, there's much more questionable if that's what the lords is. there for. and actually i think conservative leaders in the lords, when we've been in opposition have tended to get this balance right. bear in mind

that salisbury was willing that lord salisbury was willing to go along with the reform to the upper house because he thought that was a manifesto commitment reasonable commitment and a reasonable thing to do. thing for labour to do. >> course what the >> but of course what the commons done sorry commons have done today sorry gerry. no, no, no. i'm gerry. no, no, no, no, no. i'm just warming up. for instance, there was a i heard it on there was a i only heard it on there was a i only heard it on the but an excellent the radio, but an excellent speech theresa may, the speech by theresa may, the former prime minister opposed ing part of this bill because it would deport people who are being trafficked to this country for prostitution and they will be then be deported back possibly to places where they will suffer considerable harm . will suffer considerable harm. >> the minister gave a very good answer to her and said that the rise in people claiming human trafficking when they are threatened with deportation, it's gone from something like 7% to 73% because it's the get out of jail free card and that all that's being proposed is to make sure that there is some proper check on that claim. >> but gerry, the house of lords, believe it or not, is the conscience that the house of

commons should have . commons should have. >> and the reason they have the conscience is there is no effective whipping system. they are there for life. they don't want to be leader of the house or business secretary. they don't want to slide up the greasy pole what they want to do is try and get things right, but that's not right that if it is right, if you look at voting in the house of lords, they almost all vote a party ticket. >> rebellion in the house of lords is not as rare as in the house of commons, but it is quite rare. >> okay, but why is that ? the >> okay, but why is that? the reason is you've got lots of parliamentary retreads. the old hereditary one now completely changed your point. >> a moment ago you said it was conscience of the nation. now you're saying it's got parliamentary reasons? >> got parliamentary >> no, it's got parliamentary retreads, they're retreads, but because they're there life, they the there for life, they are the conscience of nation. they conscience of the nation. they don't the they don't care about the whips. they can they believe the nation. >> a lot of them bought their peerages in murky deals with all the parties for for money the treasuries organised bribery treasuries in organised bribery , all the parties. this shows

the need, doesn't it, jacob, to aboush the need, doesn't it, jacob, to abolish the house of lords? no, no, no. >> oh, no, no, no. >> the second chamber is very important. >> well, i don't want an elected second we don't second chamber, but we don't want in a different way. >> no, it should be elected as soon as you elected. >> then it becomes as powerful as the commons. and as the house of commons. and then risk moving to us style then we risk moving to us style gridlock. don't, gridlock. but we don't, particularly elected particularly if you elected on a different cycle. >> go on, go on. >> well, yeah, go on, go on. >> well, yeah, go on, go on. >> i'm just saying the rules. okay understand all of that. okay we understand all of that. and your viewers will understand that comes to it, that when it comes down to it, push shove. we go push comes to shove. we go backwards forwards, backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, backwards the backwards and forwards at the end day, elected end of the day, the elected chamber, particularly if there's a commitment, will a manifesto, commitment, will win. rightly but they win. and rightly so. but they have to get things that have a right to get things that you you sort out you guys are, you know, sort out what you've got wrong, even if it's policy. there's nothing wrong the house of lords wrong with the house of lords getting up and saying it's just, no, this is wrong. no, no, no. this is wrong. >> it'sjust no, no, no. this is wrong. >> it's just the scale of it that has it's grown so much. >> there's nothing new. >> there's nothing new. >> it'sjust >> there's nothing new. >> it's just become a much less effective chamber . no, no.

effective chamber. no, no. >> and it's nothing to do with brexit. >> and in the end, you win the commons nearly always wins this process of ping pong , as it's process of ping pong, as it's called, between the two chambers. they always do . chambers. they always do. >> yes, the problem is not >> yes, well, the problem is not that the commons may not win on an individual vote, but there isn't parliamentary time get isn't parliamentary time to get very important pieces of legislation through and you'll have to wait a year. >> but this will be fast tracked through know, leave the through you know, you leave the house. know how it this house. you know how it this bill, this bill will eventually get through. course, get through. yes. and of course, it's going to make it's not going to make a ha'p'orth of difference. >> it's taken to get >> the time it's taken to get this through, because we believe in well the in democracy. well no, the government believe debate, government we believe in debate, which manifesto behind it, which had a manifesto behind it, is down. that's is massively slowed down. that's the real problem. >> but i there's very little going on in the commons anyway at the moment, isn't there? so there's all the bills are stuck in the. that's why that's why you're able to come here. what are about this afternoon. >> not you personally what >> not you personally but what was on the floor the was what was on the floor of the house today, immigration bill. >> we were bouncing back all these. yeah. motions from the

house sending them back. >> yes. and people just do as they're they they >> yes. and people just do as they'rthink they they >> yes. and people just do as they'rthink it's ey they >> yes. and people just do as they'rthink it's a' they >> yes. and people just do as they'rthink it's a row. they don't think it's a row. >> well, no, actually, i do tend to think. >> well, you think it's a lot of people very strongly on this. >> think it's dealing with >> i think it's dealing with something important that my voters concerned this voters are concerned about this across concerned across the country, concerned about, that illegal about, and that illegal migration harder for migration makes it harder for legal get here. legal migrants to get here. well, of course. >> do you honestly in your >> but do you honestly in your heart of hearts, believe that when goes through, heart of hearts, believe that whegoing goes through, heart of hearts, believe that whegoing goes tha'p'orth it's going to make a ha'p'orth of difference? >> that is the key >> well, that is the key question. does legislation make things ultimate it things different? ultimate it must otherwise. must do otherwise. >> tell you one thing that >> i'll tell you one thing that would make a difference is if we get if we tackle global warming properly, which don't seem properly, which you don't seem to any interest in because to have any interest in because they're coming they're going to be coming in vast we can vast numbers. well, we can discuss the energy bill another week. discuss the energy bill another weeterrible, terrible piece of >> terrible, terrible piece of legislation, get legislation, but we'll get on another you my another day. thank you to my panel another day. thank you to my panel. don't to let me panel. don't forget to let me know you think. male gb know what you think. male gb news coming up, should the uk follow the practise the follow the practise of the united the bid united states and back the bid for bombs to be sent to for cluster bombs to be sent to ukraine? plus does free ukraine? plus what does free speech for the right

speech extend for the right to quote the .

radio. >> welcome back. i'm still jacob rees—mogg and this is state of the nation. and you've kindly been getting in touch with your thoughts. mike the lords must only be allowed sit in the only be allowed to sit in the chamber for five years. need chamber for five years. we need rotation let move on rotation to let britain move on in direction wanted by the in the direction wanted by the population and jill, parliament has voted against most of the house of lords amendments. this is very long game ping pong is a very long game of ping pong that the british people will not stand for ahead this week's stand for ahead of this week's nato the biden nato summit. the biden administration confirmed that it will be providing ukraine with the widely controversial munition. cluster bomb. the munition. the cluster bomb. the us is one of a number of nato members that has not signed the convention on cluster munitions and is now supplying ukraine with the weapons that russia has

used against ukraine. the convention on cluster munitions was signed by the labour government on behalf of britain in 2008 and bans their use development and sale after concerns were raised over the damage it can do . the risk to damage it can do. the risk to civilians . damage it can do. the risk to civilians. now damage it can do. the risk to civilians . now the prime civilians. now the prime minister stands by the convention. the question is should we like the united states , actually help ukraine more actively with the weapons that they are asking for in the fight against russia? the nato summit, which started today, will see leaders discuss the russian war in ukraine, as well as ukraine. and sweden's prospective membership talks. ukraine's prime minister, volodymyr zelenskyy has today criticised nato members for their lack of readiness to accept ukraine as one of its members. with the us supplying ukraine with the ammunition and the support they need to keep fighting russia. should pull out of the should britain pull out of the convention, listen and recognise that when you're at war you will use the weapons that you need to win. still with me is my panel,

alleged barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes. oh and the author and broadcaster . author and broadcaster. >> i feel a rift coming . >> i feel a rift coming. >> i feel a rift coming. >> jerry, i'll give you a first bite at this particular topic. cluster bombs are horrible . yes, cluster bombs are horrible. yes, they kill people. yes. so do ordinary bombs. >> well, but they kill innocent civilians. that's the problem. that's why we signed it. no, no, that's why we signed the convention with 100 other countries as well. however, the united states is not breaking international law. just the convention. exactly they haven't signed the convention in ukraine. it's rather different because it's their territory. it's not as if they're using against russia. they're using it on their own territories. so their responses for clearing it up. >> but isn't the reality that if we were to war, that required us to face invasion and being taken oven to face invasion and being taken over, we would use any weapons that we could to win ? that is that we could to win? that is just the nature of war. so when there is an existential threat to your nation, no, because we've signed all sorts of

chemical warfare, but we'd use nuclear weapons, biological warfare . warfare. >> and there are good reasons for that, because innocent civilians could because the wind. >> but nuclear weapons. >> but nuclear weapons. >> yeah, yeah, but. but you might as well just say, oh, who cares ? war is. war is war. we'll cares? war is. war is war. we'll do what it is to win. we know in reality city, but in reality that's what happens. that's what happens. we're happens. but however, we're above that, we're a civilised race. >> but shouldn't people be realistic that war is nasty and that if your country is about to be dismembered by an invader , be dismembered by an invader, whether you will use whatever weapons you can against them? well i'm i think if the russians had invaded us and it hadn't got to nuclear war, we might. >> well, we haven't got any cluster weapons have we. so we couldn't use them unless somebody supplied my overriding feeling saying, look, we signed this international agreement, feeling saying, look, we signed this anzrnational agreement, feeling saying, look, we signed this an agreement greement, feeling saying, look, we signed this an agreement isaement, feeling saying, look, we signed this an agreement is anrent, that an agreement is an agreement , if renege on agreement, and if we renege on an agreement, then there's nothing to stop other people reneging all sorts other agreements. >> out of agreements. >> pull out of agreements.

>> pull out of agreements. >> right. pull out of an >> all right. pull out of an agreement. but it looks bad. other people then pull of other people then pull out of agreements. on agreements. it's not not just on this change, all sorts this climate change, all sorts of things. and think actually this climate change, all sorts of tworld and think actually this climate change, all sorts of tworld to d think actually this climate change, all sorts of tworld to work,ink actually this climate change, all sorts of tworld to work, yourctually this climate change, all sorts of tworld to work, yourctualto the world to work, you need to have lots of agreements. you haven't got a world government. >> i just wonder whether america haven't got a world government. >:wiser,: wonder whether america haven't got a world government. >:wiser,: wonitzr whether america haven't got a world government. >:wiser,: wonit doesn't er america haven't got a world government. >:wiser,: wonit doesn't sign nerica haven't got a world government. >:\to er,: wonit doesn't sign nerica haven't got a world government. >:\to these>nit doesn't sign nerica haven't got a world government. >:\to these agreementssign nerica up to these agreements because it recognises when push comes to shove, won't actually stick shove, you won't actually stick to that the is not to them that the world is not the that people who sign the world that people who sign these agreements think it is. it's slightly woolly thinking that people to sign up, that allows people to sign up, not to do nasty things. actually, your country is actually, when your country is facing destruction, they haven't signed war crimes, have they? >> they they won't accept the hague. >> i don't i don't think america is wiser on this. i think and america is not likely to suffer cluster bombs on the mainland of america . the no, i think they america. the no, i think they are very horrid. i've seen the effect of cluster weapons in the middle east many years ago , middle east many years ago, long, long before this agreement , and they are very horrid indeed. , and they are very horrid indeed . and i think it was an indeed. and i think it was an advance for civilisation to have this agreement. not

advance for civilisation to have this agreement . not everybody this agreement. not everybody signed it, unfortunately , but we signed it, unfortunately, but we did. and we are, as jerry says we are, we in the west have to show the russians we're better than you. we don't do these nasty things. yes. and we don't do all the terrible things they've been doing to ukrainian soldiers and all the, you know, the, you know, castrating people and murdering them and raping them and whatever. and there are i know it sounds odd. there are certain rules of war. and you you should stick to them. >> there are. and conventions and certainly the treatment of prisoners is one that it seems to me to be very important to uphold because that doesn't make the difference between winning uphold because that doesn't make the losing1ce between winning uphold because that doesn't make the losing the 3etween winning uphold because that doesn't make the losing the war. een winning uphold because that doesn't make the well, g the war. een winning uphold because that doesn't make the well, itthe war. een winning uphold because that doesn't make the well, it would r. een winning uphold because that doesn't make the well, it would if en winning uphold because that doesn't make the well, it would if you/inning >> well, it would if you promised if said we're going promised if you said we're going to every prisoner we get, to kill every prisoner we get, that would rather deter people from. but it might. it might make fighting or and we're going from. but it might. it might mishoot.1ting or and we're going to shoot. >> yes, we're going to shoot women children. women and children. >> yeah, but that sometimes makes people fight harder. >> yeah, but that sometimes ma and)eople fight harder. >> yeah, but that sometimes ma and actuallyght harder. >> yeah, but that sometimes ma and actually ,1t harder. >> yeah, but that sometimes ma and actually , someier. >> yeah, but that sometimes ma and actually , some countries >> and actually, some countries use that as a threat . use that as a threat. >> slippery. it's a dangerous slippery slope. so if you look

at japan, at the end of the war, they told their population that they told their population that they would be killed if they didn't fight anyway. >> so that was that's used as home propaganda sometimes to get the local population to carry on. we are civilised and that's what makes us british. >> we believe in the world order. yeah, well, it's british. >> it makes us european. i like to think, but i'm very suspicious of the world order, as you might like to have it. >> well, how would, how do you think i would like to have it telling democracies what to do. >> but the other interesting thing at the summit today is the membership of ukraine. sweden's membership is very straightforward, agreed importantly, turkey has agreed to what the deal there? >> what was the deal there? >> what was the deal there? >> there must have been a deal. >> there must have been a deal. >> there must have been a deal. i don't know. >> probably money involved. >> probably some money involved. >> probably some money involved. >> it's very >> yeah, but it's very interesting, issue of ukraine. >> it seems to me it's very hard to allow ukraine to join nato when actively. when it is actively. >> exactly. you can't >> exactly. because you can't do it nato largely it now. nato is largely a deterrent rather than a fighting

force . it has been so far. and force. it has been so far. and yeah, if somebody joins in the middle of a war, then then the obugafion middle of a war, then then the obligation is on all of us to go and join in its world, it is will world that's not. whereas if they'd been in nato two years ago, then probably the invasion wouldn't have happened. >> sweden right to come in the various other states who want to come in. yes we've got to do that as a protection. >> finland coming in. >> finland coming in. >> yeah, finland as well. very. >> yeah, finland as well. very. >> and it's very interesting. one of the effects of what putin has done is to strengthen nato and turn into a much more and turn it into a much more effective was effective alliance than it was before. his invasion. people actively join . actively wanting to join. >> with turkey, >> and interesting with turkey, erdogan, think erdogan, erdogan, i think is basically however, we basically a bad man. however, we need that bad man because it shows stability. now, i would have loved erdogan democrat have loved erdogan as a democrat to actually lost the election . to actually lost the election. however, it wouldn't have been good for us because he's got contacts with most of the middle eastern countries and particularly with russia. we need him on side and he's a

member of nato and that's very important. >> but that's very interesting because you're now moving from your woolly world order to not only obe world all in one fell swoop, a rules based order, not willy, willy, world order. i'm for realpolitik, but thank you to my panel. i hope to see you next week. coming up, is it a war crime? quote, the bible. plus the bbc crisis persists with fresh allegations where doesit with fresh allegations where does it go from here? >> the temperature's rising . >> the temperature's rising. boxed solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello there. i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. further heavy showers over the next few days. quite breezy as well. temperatures around average for the time of year. well. temperatures around average for the time of year . so average for the time of year. so we look at the bigger picture. low pressure is in charge of our weather at the moment, bringing in those showers pushes just a little further east over the next few into next few days into using a northwesterly flow. so quite chilly some north western chilly around some north western coasts the uk to end tuesday coasts of the uk to end tuesday as showers fade for a time across parts of england and

wales but continue across northern ireland and scotland through the night. some of these heavy then pushing back heavy at times then pushing back into england, north into northern england, north wales the end the night. wales by the end of the night. temperatures for all double temperatures for all in double figures, 14 or 15 celsius as minimums in towns and cities a little lower in the countryside. so the best of the sunshine. first thing will be across southeastern parts of the uk. further north and west, it's quite cloudy. there'll be some showery rain and this slowly pushes south and eastwards through the day. showers turning heavy at times. by the afternoon, the odd rumble of thunder is possible, particularly across northern england, northern ireland and scotland too. we could see some localised disruption and temperatures cool side, temperatures on the cool side, 17 to 19 across the north of the uk, 20 to 23, perhaps 24 across the far south—east of england and into thursday , a bright and into thursday, a bright start to the morning. there will be some sunny spells around two, but the scattered showers for many, perhaps less frequent and less heavy compared to recent days. still highs around 23 or

24 . 24. >> the temperatures rising . >> the temperatures rising. boxed solar power sponsors of weather on .

radio. >> welcome back . our main jacob >> welcome back. our main jacob rees—mogg, and you've been getting in touch with your thoughts. mark mark love the show, but you really ought to tie your tie with a windsor knot more symmetrical, more stately , more symmetrical, more stately, more symmetrical, more stately, more you well, mark, you better come and tell me how to tie windsor locks. i think i know gary. we all wish we didn't have to use them, but needs must. ukrainians defending ukrainians are defending their land merciless land against a merciless invasion of country. and invasion of the country. and bridget, i was a child during world war ii cluster bombs are evil . world war ii cluster bombs are evil. finland's former minister of the interior. that's equivalent to home secretary,

has been embroiled in a battle for free speech after facing a criminal trial for quoting the bible on twitter in 2019 five. ranson asked her twitter followers, where in the bible there was justification for sponsoring the helsinki pride parade . the text was accompanied parade. the text was accompanied by a picture of the following bible verse . therefore, god also bible verse. therefore, god also gave them up to uncleanness in the lusts of their hearts to dishonour their bodies among themselves who exchanged the truth of god for the lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. amen for this reason, god gave them up to vile passions for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature for zahawi was subsequently charged under section of the finnish criminal code entitled war crimes and crimes against humanity , which carries a humanity, which carries a maximum sentence of two years in prison . a plethora of hard to prison. a plethora of hard to believe moments have emerged throughout the trial from a clergyman who published a

pamphlet written by piv, also facing criminal charges to the state prosecutor , to the state state prosecutor, to the state prosecutor , likening the bible prosecutor, likening the bible to mein kampf. prosecutor, likening the bible to mein kampf . despite being to mein kampf. despite being acquitted , zahawi is now going acquitted, zahawi is now going back to trial in august, double jeopardy is not part of the constitutional settlement in finland . we are witnessing a finland. we are witnessing a global trend of censoring individuals whose beliefs differ to those of the state, and the threat is far closer to the uk than we might like to believe. well, i'm very pleased now to be joined by paivi rasanen and the barrister lorcan price from the alliance defending freedom. you've k zahawi it. thank you so much for coming on. i thought finland was a liberal country that believed in freedom of speech. that believed in freedom of speech . so how could you be speech. so how could you be charged under war crimes legislation ? legislation? >> i have to say that this has been a big surprise. also for me. i have been 28 years in

pubuc me. i have been 28 years in public life in in parliament. but what has happened now during four years, it has been absurd . four years, it has been absurd. ihave four years, it has been absurd. i have been twice in in helsinki district court. i have been in police station, interrogated about biblical issues. what bible tells about about humanity and sexuality . in bible tells about about humanity and sexuality. in in in finland we have the constitution . we we have the constitution. we have in principle we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. we have also long roots in christianity , dodi in roots in christianity, dodi in finland and this happened in in in our country. so i think that it could happen anywhere. >> and when you quoted those lines from the bible, you were objecting to the church in finland celebrating pride because you thought that the church had no biblical right to do that . did you get any

do that. did you get any pushback from the church in finland? did they mind that you were quoting the bible in in fact, it was the leadership of our church who support did this pride event. >> and it was a shock to me. so of course, they didn't support it. give support to my twitter post thing. so the archbishop has said that they think that it is okay that this case is inaya litigated in court and so then there was a complaint made and you were arrested and you were interrogated for how long? altogether about 13 hours. three times as. and they were asking you about christian teaching on sexuality ? yes. it was an absurd sexuality? yes. it was an absurd situation . and i was sitting in situation. and i was sitting in the police station . i had the the police station. i had the bible on the table and the police was asking me that. what is the message of the letter to

romans? what is about its first chapter? what do you mean by the concept of sin and so on? it was about theological issues . about theological issues. >> and the idea was that this was a hate crime under finnish law. >> yes . i have never law. >> yes. i have never said any anything which is hatred against anything which is hatred against any minority party. i have i have said also in pamphlet, which is also investigated that all people are equal and all all are created as as a image of god and all all people have a dignity. but we are also all sinners and it is god who says what is sin and what is not. and ihave what is sin and what is not. and i have only said that it is against god's will to have sexual relationships outside the marriage that homosexual

relationships are sin in, in in front of god and this was my so—called crime. and prosecutor in in court. she she said that if you speak about sin , then you if you speak about sin, then you keep this person in inferior to other other people. but what i have said it is about classical christianity . and so i think christianity. and so i think that it christianity. and so i think thatitis christianity. and so i think that it is dangerous for the freedom of christianity when you are the equivalent of home secretary, you were obviously in charge of the police and security within finland . security within finland. >> would you have thought that this was the law at the time? did you think when you put the tweet out that you could be breaking the law and do it anyway? >> no, no, i couldn't think. and in fact , the other charge is in fact, the other charge is about the pamphlet that i had written, written already 2004. i

never thought that i am breaking a law that or that it is hate speech. it was a total surprise for me and of course, i think that still that i. i have not committed any crime . committed any crime. >> and you're being prosecuted again, which comes as a great surprise for an english audience i >> -- >> yes. even though that the police said that they didn't find any crime, that . before the find any crime, that. before the first session. and then i got a clear acquittal . clear acquittal. >> look, look, i want to come to you because these people can't break the law even if they don't like it. so the question is, do you think the law says this and that the law is wrong and therefore ought to be changed, or that the law is being wrongly appued? >> well, to the extent that the law would criminalise that type of behaviour, then i think the law is both being wrongly applied. but if it in fact does

encompass this and as he has already said, judges already said, three judges of the court have found the district court have found that not, then i think that it does not, then i think that it does not, then i think that would be an absurd proposition and it would be contrary finland's contrary to finland's obugafions obligations under international law, that the law, which require both that the european convention and european convention level and at the convention on the united nations convention on civil and political rights, that freedom religion is defended freedom of religion is defended and and free speech is and protected and free speech is protected. >> but are in the bible >> but there are in the bible some things and that's what my constituents have occasionally written to me, quoting them, that unpleasant, that that are very unpleasant, that you wouldn't actually want to quote. so is the fact that it's in the bible always a defence? >> i think what we're talking aboutin >> i think what we're talking about in the context of what i was doing was communicating her beliefs publicly, both in the pamphlet that, as she mentioned, she wrote nearly years ago she wrote nearly 20 years ago now and in a tweet directed at the leadership of her church, what the prosecution has claimed is that, as you saw or as you introduced, that sometimes the bible and indeed they said the quran and mein kampf, including all of documents in the all of these documents in the same generate and same context, generate hate and

animosity towards minorities. but the difficulty with that is, and with all hate speech laws, ultimately is that you're criminalising somebody like pivi for expressing something on the understanding that it creates an emotional response in a third person, not at all necessarily. the audience for that communication. so what you're saying is hate speech has to be objectively generating hate rather than somebody dislikes it? >> well, that's the difficulty with it. >> and in the case of this prosecution . thank you. prosecution. thank you. >> thank you. thank you very much. sorry to cut off that discussion, but thank you very much to pivi and to lorcan. coming up, it's the commercial success. it's sit down with sitwell as pressure builds on the bbc. should we resist trial by . media by. media >> the 12th day to celebrate history , community and family history, community and family here in northern ireland? join me, arlene foster and me dougie beattie as we bring you live

coverage of the july 12th celebrations from the beautiful city of belfast. i'm right across the united kingdom . it's across the united kingdom. it's all happening here on gb news, britain's news

channel >> welcome back. i continue to identify as jacob rees—mogg, and this is state of the nation. you've been getting in touch with mail. moggs pat says , with your mail. moggs pat says, i think we're on a slippery slope limiting slope when it comes to limiting free public mps and the free speech. public mps and the media should fighting this media should be fighting this before late. well, here before it's too late. well, here here to pat last night, amidst what seemed to be an ever changing story, we affirmed the fundamental importance of the presumption of innocence as the day yesterday, the day began yesterday, the allegations against the unnamed bbc presenter seemed reach bbc presenter seemed to reach breaking point . but we breaking point. but next we heard the individual in heard that the individual in question, alleged victim, question, the alleged victim, was denying the allegations of inappropriate behaviour his inappropriate behaviour by his lawyer . then the sun claims to lawyer. then the sun claims to be standing by the parents of

the individual all and published quotes stating it is sad, but we stand by our account and we hope they get the help they need. we did this to help and the presenter has got into their head. they're being the individual who would otherwise be called the victim. but then today, when things seem to be entering into no man's land, fresh allegations of misconduct emerged the very same emerged against the very same presenter from yet another young person, including being pressured to meet, as well as sending abusive messages. it's worth noting that the sun is yet to publish the evidence that it says it has, so it's an unusually difficult topic for the commercial success that is sit down with sitwell. but william, you yourself were once a victim of trial by media and you found that there was a twitter storm. i think i was one of the very few people to defend you, which probably didn't do you, which probably didn't do you much good. >> certainly didn't. >> certainly didn't. >> but thank you. trial by media is a pretty unpleasant aspect of modern social media, isn't it? >> yeah, it is. and i thought we lived in a fairly libertarian

society these days where, you know, you can specify your genden know, you can specify your gender, your sexual proclivities are up to you and i think that i found the phillip schofield affair incredibly uncomfortable because as far as i know and i'm i still haven't seen anyone accuse him of an actual crime. and just because you might not approve of someone's behaviour , approve of someone's behaviour, it doesn't mean that their reputation has to be completely trashed. and this individual at the bbc seems to be on the same vein as this. and you get twitter behaving appallingly. i think it's really interesting that people like jeremy vine and nicky campbell and rylan are calling out the people who have tried to name them and the vitriol that they get is appalling. twitter, instagram if you've ever suffered from abuse on those platforms and i have, you try and complain about it, it goes absolutely nowhere. they either can't don't care about it

or they simply can't control the beast. and so what happens is people's reputation gets completely destroyed before they're able to stand up and defend themselves. and what often happens is when we see the truth of the story, when it starts to unravel, we actually realise the supposition of realise that the supposition of criminal behaviour or the attitudes that people have about these people ends up being wrong . because the truth is in a very different place . different place. >> the twitter users , they have >> the twitter users, they have to be careful because if they put things on that aren't true and jeremy vine has threatened to sue you. the people accused who aren't the person involved can sue. and this happened to sally bercow. she lost a libel action and had to pay significant amounts of money in settlement. so it can be very expensive to tweet something when you don't know the facts. yes. >> and these people are incredibly naive. you know, just because you're sort of sitting in your sweaty, flat, abusing celebrities and you think you can get away with it, you know,

in the old days , we sat at the in the old days, we sat at the television and shouted at it and it didn't go further than than our rooms. our sitting rooms. >> fortunately, gb news viewers are far too civilised. do any of these things in a behaved these things in a well behaved but you've touched on a but i think you've touched on a very interesting thing the very interesting thing that the fact don't know the has fact we don't know the name has actually story bigger actually made the story bigger and bigger and i do and bigger and bigger and i do sometimes wonder if we weren't applying these invented privacy laws and the sun had published the name last week , it would the name last week, it would have given the person involved the chance to respond. other newspapers would have been much more careful of piling in because libel laws . the because of the libel laws. the sun would have had to have taken on the risk of a libel action if it if somebody it were wrong. if somebody accused a much better chance than a twitter for aura by about something that people just don't know the facts about. >> yes, it strikes me that, you know, sun is behaving in the know, the sun is behaving in the way that it did in the 80s as a as a red top , trying to drag as a red top, trying to drag people down and expose people in a way that i think is rather old

fashioned, to put it mildly. and i think obviously , as you i think obviously, as you suggest, the mystery that surrounds this person is what's made it so exciting. the guessing game is what's made it such that, you know, a dramatic back story to follow. >> well, the prime minister on a visit to nato is asked if he knows who the person is and says he doesn't know if it gets to that level. it's clearly something that everybody is talking about . something that everybody is talking about. but i'm also interested in the point you make that it may turn out that nothing illegal has happened and it's very unclear from the current stories whether anything illegal has or hasn't happened . illegal has or hasn't happened. but is right to say that but is it right to say that pubuc but is it right to say that public figures can do anything as long as it's legal? or are viewers , listeners, readers of viewers, listeners, readers of newspapers entitled to say , newspapers entitled to say, well, he may be allowed to do that, but actually i think that's pretty disagreeable. >> i think it depends on whether you signed up to a particular code of conduct. that if code of conduct. i think that if an stands on a ticket of an mp stands on a ticket of being a family man and that classic of the member of

classic shot of the member of parliament by the parliament standing by the garden gate with his faithful wife and children and it's then revealed that he has numerous mistresses and different families, i think it's absolutely right. i also think that if you choose to go into pubuc that if you choose to go into public life and i know this is a view that you have that you need to take the flak that goes with that. to take the flak that goes with that . and i think that if you that. and i think that if you are a key national broadcaster, then perhaps there's a certain decorum . but the problem is it's decorum. but the problem is it's got to be written in stone because there are too many grey areas here. who's to say that one individual can, can, can join, you know , dating apps and join, you know, dating apps and do what they want? >> the nation entitled to come to a view. and isn't it to some extent about power and that the issue of the bbc has in handling this with the jimmy savile affair is that people with great power as national figures abused it with the bbc behind them and covering up and that that's what makes it a story of national interest even if no crime has

been committed. >> i mean, reading between the lines individual, i lines of this individual, i don't sense a huge abuse of power. the latest revelation , as power. the latest revelation, as i read carefully, are about some activity on a dating app. dating apps are there for people to meet. the characters said they don't want to meet this individual that that character has then said right, well i shall go to the press and say, you know, announce your name. and that person then got cross about it. so i really don't see that that develops the story in a in a particular way. >> well, it may not surprise you to know that i've never used a dating my life. dating app in my life. i wouldn't know where to find one, but you, william . i but thank you, william. i understand got a bicycle understand you've got a bicycle ride get your dinner, so ride to get your dinner, so i hope you cycle safely through the streets london. the streets of london. that's all next, it's all from me. up next, it's professor dolan in professor mark dolan in professor mark dolan in professor mark, professor dan wootton. mark, will talking the bbc will you be talking by the bbc by any chance? evening. >> it's the only town, >> it's the only story in town, jacob. a huge crisis for our national broadcaster with a new story developing published in tonight's sun website that this

alleged presenter , who we're alleged presenter, who we're told paid for these particular images from a young person, may have broken covid lockdown rules and had an encounter with one such person. so it's a bbc in crisis special with stories breaking as we speak. >> okay. >> okay. >> mind you, i think that we should now get away from covid rules. surely they've gone. but that's coming up after. well, i'll be tomorrow from 8:00. i'll be back tomorrow from 8:00. i'm rees—mogg this i'm jacob rees—mogg. this has been nafion i'm jacob rees—mogg. this has been nation there's to been saved nation and there's to going be the sun shining in somerset tomorrow. beautiful see that feeling inside from that warm feeling inside from boxed boilers . boxed boilers. >> proud sponsors of weather on gb news. hello there and greg dewhurst. >> and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. further heavy showers over the next few days. quite breezy as well . days. quite breezy as well. temperatures around average for the time of year. so we look at the time of year. so we look at the bigger picture. low pressure is in charge of our weather at the moment, bringing in those showers pushes just a little further over the next few further east over the next few

days. introducing a northwesterly so quite northwesterly flow. so quite chilly some northwestern chilly around some northwestern coast of the uk tuesday. coast of the uk to end tuesday. showers fade for a time across parts of england and wales, but continue across northern ireland and scotland . and through the and scotland. and through the night, some of these heavy at times, back into times, then pushing back into northern england, north wales. by northern england, north wales. by end of the night. by the end of the night. temperatures all in double temperatures for all in double figures, 14 or 15 celsius as minimums in towns and cities a little lower in the countryside. the best of the sunshine . first the best of the sunshine. first thing will be across southeastern parts of the uk, further north and west, it's quite cloudy. there'll be some showery rain and this slowly pushes south and eastwards through day. showers turning through the day. showers turning heavy times. by the afternoon heavy at times. by the afternoon , odd of thunder is , the odd rumble of thunder is possible, particularly across northern england, northern ireland and scotland we ireland and scotland too. we could some local disruption could see some local disruption and temperatures on the cool side, 17 to 19 across the north of the uk, 20 to 23, perhaps 24 across the far south—east of england into thursday, a bright start to the morning. there will be some sunny spells around,

too, but the scattered showers for many, perhaps less frequent and less heavy compared to recent days. still highs around 23 or 24. the that warm feeling inside from boxed boilers proud sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> this is dan wootton tonight. with me mark dolan with you all week breaking tonight , the sun now a leaderless organisation. week breaking tonight, the sun he'll breaking; the latest now a leaderless organisation. he'll breaking tonight est now a leaderless organisation. he'll breaking tonight ,st now a leaderless organisation. he'll breaking tonight , the sun week breaking tonight, the sun is reporting that the bbc star is reporting that the bbc star suspended over sex claims has suspended over sex claims has been accused of breaking been accused of breaking lockdown rules to meet one young lockdown rules to meet one young stranger he met on a dating stranger he met on a dating site. this comes after a second this comes after young person sensationally claimed that they received abusive and expletive filled

messages from the still unnamed presenter . messages from the still unnamed presenter. so isn't it time the corporation and its hapless director general, tim davie, ended this farce and named the man at the centre of this growing storm? i'll make that case in my digest next before my superstar panel have their say tonight, we're joined by baroness foster calvin robinson and rebecca reid . plus, as tim and rebecca reid. plus, as tim davie admits, the beeb is scrambling to salvage its reputation after this latest scandal . scandal. >> one thing i would say is that these are damaged. these are clearly damaging to the bbc. >> do you still have trust in the clash? that's what i'll be asking the bbc. do you trust it? we'll hear from both sides on that one then. a man who spent 26 years at broadcasting house is journalist and author tom bower gives his unfiltered verdict on what he believes is now a leaderless organisation .

now a leaderless organisation. he'll also have the latest this comes afteimmigration slash our £2 billion immigration hotel bill? and i'll ask my panel if they would be willing to shack up with an asylum seeker to save the taxpayer money. you won't want to miss that one. but with costs soaring, can we ever solve the migrant crisis reform uk leader richard tice sets out his