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>> our moment by moment coverage of trump criminal trial continues this hour. speak to the defense team is cross-examining the prosecution's first witness, david packer. his testimony has focused on a catch and kill schemes to bury stories about donald trump. it is also revealing negative stories about other celebrities including politicians as well. hello, everyone this is "outnumbered." i am dagen mcdowell. joining us today, dagen mcdowell. fox news contributor, tammy bruce. fox news contributor senior fellow at the american enterprise institute and former speechwriter to president george w. bush, marc thiessen. and we have with the with the kara fredrick, from the heritage foundation. >> emily: first let's go to live to eric who was outside the u.s. supreme court and lower manhattan eric?

>> hello, everyone. you know this prosecution case rests largely on the theory that trump wanted to buy the stories of women who had said that they had intercourse with him. when it comes to mcdougall, something new happened this morning. the former publisher revealed in court under cross-examination that no, the former president did not want to buy the story. that is what is going on right now. the cross-examination is happening with trump attorney, he is trying to show the holes in the prosecution's case. david packer who was the former friend has been describing how he and donald trump arranged to buy the negative stories that get hurt donald trump and his presidential campaign back in 2016. he paid a hundred and $50,000 to buy the rights. former playboy t

she had a nearly yearlong affair with donald trump. but they justified that donald trump did not want to purchase that story and did not want to go through because he had told him that the news always gets out. in the cross-examination by donald trump's lawyer, they are trying to show that if he did not want to buy the story why would he be prosecuted for allegedly orchestrating a election and if you have scheme to. they said they had swap stories and theories for years. they trying to establish that there were just trying to do a routine and not prompted any connection to the camping. yesterday he testified that the enquirer published negative stories, but today he admitted that those articles were not new that they had appeared and in some cases have been taken from other publications. teca also said he had stories that killed about elected

affairs from arnold schwarzenegger and tiger woods and chicago mayor and others. so when he came knocking wanted the money for her story, what it really was is to restart her career because it would help her up your magazine covers and the fact that david becker today said that she did appear on the cover of men's journal one of the publications he owned and that in fact she did not want her story told. so the big question here is concerning the prosecution's case in the prosecutor, they have said that the former president orchestrated this campaign and connected it to the election, but so far a lease with the first witness so far, there has been no direct evidence at all. that former president trump, told david packer to kill any of the stories connected to his campaign. he has just testify that the former president was angry when the information got out never claimed at all that that was

connected in any way to the presidential election back in 2016 that undercut at the prosecution's case. emily back to you. >> emily: thank you so much, now let's bring in constitutional law expert and george washington university professor, not break this down for us a little further. what does this mean? >> is a breakdown in the courtroom, they have a witness that is disassembling in front of them. the prosecution never revealed to the jury that david packer had actually killed stories for other celebrities that he had been working on stories two decades before the election with donald trump. that he was oppressing and not it is only getting worse yesterday it was really bad. in terms of the cross-examination for the prosecution. today, it is much worse. to hear him say that donald trump did not want to

purchase the story. yesterday when he asked him about reimbursing he said he did not know anything about that. he has already been complaining about the lack of any cognizable crime here, but there is also age of one billing connection trump himself, that is what we're really seeing here, a lot of discussions with michael cohen who is going to give us a really memorable moment where he gets on the stand. he is actually going to look at that jury and say, basically, could my former client in jail for following my legal advice. speak to jonathan, at the end of the day, the burden is on the prosecution to your point to bring this to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt, my qn for you is, as of now, have they met the burden and is a day that are failing at presenting or is it that defenses are doing a really good job of showing the holes?

>> i think the defense is doing a really good job, but i have to say that this is collapsing on its own way. you just have to stand back and let it fall. just asking simple questions that the juried would want to know, it has left serious damage for the prosecution. these are not strange tangential questions, these are questions you would've expected the prosecution to ask as just the completion of their line of questioning. such as whether or not donald trump was the only one you did this for, when did you start to do this? unless he was trying to get arnold schwarzenegger and tiger woods elected president, and one of them could not be -- then the prosecution theory is really becoming something that is easy to mock. what i do not understand is how the judge could take this farce unfold in a courtroom, because at the end of the day he has to give instructions to this jury.

how's he going to instruct them? there is no crime. is he going to say that this is a federal election crime? because it wasn't. and if the federal government declined the charge, donald trump wasn't even asked to pay a single fine, so how is he going to get that instruction? but if it is not a crime what are we doing here? >> emily: that is absolutely right, i think many americans have that same question. thank you so much for joining us today. bringing you back to the couch, let's talk with you, marc thiessen, to jonathan's point, bigger cases have been overturned instantly met their challenges on the basis of one erroneous jury instruction. even if they are not sure what they're saying but may be a lot of people have the same questions. >> marc: this week may may end up being a turning point the election, he may have immunity from the supreme court an acquittal in this first trial which would be quite a stunning

event. it seems that the prosecution case is falling apart, but why is he even being prosecuted to begin with? he's been accused of suppressing a negative news story. if that was the crime then every press secretary in america would be prosecuted, why not prosecute bill clinton for suppressing the bimbo corruption -- he hired teams of lawyers to come through in their histories and their intimate lives and paint them in a negative light and again -- why don't we prosecute joe biden for suppressing the hunter biden laptop story which is a much mysterious thing, and he lied about her by saying it was a russian collusion. and conspired with the fbi and the social media companies to suppress that. why is that not a crime if this is a crime? >> emily: i love the idea of your being a d.a. mark. but what do you make of this? >> kara: i can tell you why he is in that courtroom because it

is political. because letitia james they all ran on the promise to get donald trump in no uncertain terms. i you coming back to the nbc poll, that talks about how donald trump is a head when it comes to registered voters, but if donald trump were convicted of a family this year, joe biden will pull ahead when it comes to a favorite in the general election. so that is why he is in the courtroom. >> emily: in the last eight days do you think that there's been any change in that sway in the public opinion? do you see people congealing my seeing that this is a mockery of the criminal justice system? >> dagen: something jumped out at me, and it was something someone said yesterday, it has been repeated over and over again, but she had said this is a criminal trial and there is no criminal evidence. as of yet. what law did donald trump break? and this is just me thinking out loud, this goes beyond

alvin bragg, because he had left his job as the number three in the justice department and gave the opening statement, this goes to the mucky democrat party, it goes to the white house and the bombing campaign to keep trump front and center in a courtroom. this is a much bigger political play if you will. and a miscarriage and abuse of the justice system than just one manhattan district attorney. the revelation about david packer, the catch and kill suppressing that stories, neither which are crimes for arnold schwarzenegger or even tiger woods, it goes straight to those those are that crime -- a one are the crimes? what are the families? what are the underlines? there is none. it was about the election, the payments were made in 2017.

the election was in 2016. that needs to be hammered home by the defense in the days to come. >> without these discussions i would view as a learning about the importance of an objective point of view when it comes to what is happening legally. you get it from mark, and you get from andy mccarthy, and despite what they might think about trump, there is an importance to the nature of what is happening here. it is not just a theory that it's a fun thing to say, but this is exactly what happens and certain republics. sometimes they find a crime, it is amazing to me that they haven't found a crime for donald trump but they haven't. and i think that the larger issue also is that americans do see this for what it is, which is why his approval has gone up. and what got up the tarpaulin when being asked by a person, about whether or not he's indicted, you do not want to say "i do" not care, i would say that would affect me. i am telling you right now the american people do not like

this, it damages the nature of our system in general because he is only surviving because of his money, the argument is, and has been for a while, but many groups in this company, especially the minority groups, this is the kind of hand that is wielded against you when you have no hope of any money. >> marc: so there would you be less likely to vote for trump if he is convicted, but i would like to see a poll that says if you would vote if you are acquitted, because a call is the view of all these prosecutions. validating what he has been saying, that this is the legal witch hunt and an effort to destroy him and interfere the election. if he gets acquitted on this it is a huge political one for him. >> emily: marc thiessen for the attorney general. president biden finally says that he will debate trump. because coming up next. ur routi. new science shows

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>> emily: president biden says he will debate trump, ahead of this year's election although he said he did not know and what format. listen. >> i do not know if you are going to debate your opponent. >> i am somewhere but i do not know when. but i am happy to debate him. >> dagen: that was a long interviewing a old man. >> marc: of course absolutely. so, they are both in new york let's do this. we can turn this set into a debate stage in about half an hour i believe. but, if you cannot debate, then you should not be running for president of the united states if you are not capable of debating. i am not convinced that this is

gonna happen. he said four times he would defend taiwan and his staff has walk that back. but if it happens that's great. i think not only should trump debate him. but he should show up at the presidential debate and say he's going to debate speed 27 as well. let's have him debate all of them. >> emily debate would certainly help president biden avoid the teleprompter. four more years. however, trump would wipe the floor with joe biden, and that is an insult to mops. >> dagen: that is right. >> d >> emily: i didn't take that as any iota of actually can meaning it. he disagrees with whoever speaking around him and i think donald trump should double down on that and continue to have the empty make and open podium next to him like he did in wisconsin and the campaign trail when he

was available and not being persecuted here in the city. i look forward to seeing him take it at his word. anytime anyplace to say what they and we will be there. >> tammy: here in the town, it is interesting, transcripts versus hearing what is said is key. so i am really glad we had that audio because it almost sounds like he could've said said those words to any question. like yes, somewhere, are you gonna have dinner tonight? he has somewhere but at some point. it could've been anything. now he did debate of course last time and we do see him like in the state of the union, i do not know if it's red bull or what it is -- but as you said, it is a matter of if you cannot do this then you cannot be president but we've seen that. we do not know who it is but it's a collective i am sure so he is a mascot. it's like asking the mascot on the football field to run the

ball. you don't. and so he can't. this is something that they want to hide them from. it worked in 2020 and they think it will work again but now they cannot hide and they cannot lie and if donald trump says he's going to debate him maybe it will be over oatmeal in the morning and his own head. i could be a lot of people, i debate people in my own head right now, so for america if it's a problem donald trump or handle it and whatever happens he will be fine. >> so all the television networks early in the month broke statements inviting president biden and trump to debate. and david wrote an article from the atlantic saying that president biden spokesperson shea hefner like this. the constitution is not debatable the president does not participate in forms. with the person still under incredible indictment for his attempt to overthrow the constitution. this seems absurd but this

administration and that campaign will do anything to keep joe biden away from the stage and from a microphone next to trump i believe. >> that is exactly right and if this does happen what they're going to do is they are going to delay delay delay until most of those mail-in votes have been casted. past july when most of the electric have been voted in by mail. so they might do it nominally, but there's not enough uppers in the world to get that man sentiment. but at the same time if they do it it will be very nominal mb surface level and it check in the block when most of america's knowledge that president biden cannot do this. he is incompetent. period. >> they might just cut his mic and say oh, no, we tried it and we did show up but there was a flat trier. i'm sure there's going to be some type of sabotage always.

>> dagen: in terms of how that germaphobe has followed. president biden is about to leave new york city, so why did he completely ignore the anti-israel protest. the pro-hamas protest at columbia? you're the first to know when high rate debt is stressing your budget. but your family's service has earned you a big advantage. the va home loan benefit. with the lower rate newday 100 va cash out loan, you can pay off high rate credit cards and car loans. that's real money you can use to take care of your family and home.

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but not a single word from president biden today, he's been called out for ignoring the chilling scenes and we have witnessed at columbia and new york city during his visit to new york city. mark is live with the latest marc? >> good afternoon. president biden will call out hateful rhetoric when he sees it but unlike the house speaker mike johnson, while in new york he chose not to see where these campus protest had been taken place. president biden is wrapping up his trip to new york at this hour who is up in the city for a ritzy fund-raiser as well as a chance to sit down with the link lengthy interview with howard stern in which he tried to steer the conversation back to what democrats appear to be focused most on, abortion. >> if i'm elected president again for the second term, we are going to be over to overrule them and make roe v. wade the law of the land again. because based on everything in the union, being able to judge who gets a majority vote in the

congress. >> the president is not seen the drama unfold in places like columbia, the controversy could strike for the next several months and the associated press says that these protest could build momentum to the convention in chicago and potentially trigger scenes of violence that could cause the unrest of protests such as during the vietnam war back in 1960. perhaps also an attempt to change the subject the white house is now directly criticizing trump after he told reporters that the events in charlottesville back in 2017 what compared to what we've seen lately. the white house statement says minimizing the white supremacist poison is repugnant and divisive. it is very likely that president biden will have a lot more to say about donald trump tomorrow night for the dinner, we will be able to attack his predecessor but they're still the possibility of pro-palestinian protesters showing up nearby, there's a lot of press as well as the president at the washington h hill. >> tammy: what a world.

what we have been seeing at these anti-israel protesters is repugnant and -- protesters holding up a detestable sign we've seen at a pro-palestinian protest. carrying a sign calling for the final solution as then hitler's plan for the of the jewish people. we've also seen people hold up certain types of flags and then there's this image, and northwestern university proudly wearing a hoodie with a hamas terrace on it. it sounds like to me that this is not anti-israel. this is about supporting terrorism. the final solution is a anti-israel -- it is about jewish people everywhere. i will rethink about president biden calling out what he think is going to be divisive because his flock not count? they are getting from someone. >> kara: this is what i find

so interesting for biden administration are reversing most of their vitriol for people like maggart extremists. they do not talk about terrace like this and be spoiled children a bunch of my friends and myself included one overseas from multiple deployments to keep the terrace that they and now we have terry support is here because that's what it is it a specific terrorist supporters. someone said something really interesting the aftermath of october 7, they said these kids watch the sticky talks and they think they know something about the world and that is exactly right. when the ship start to sink in the blood starts to flow, things change and these kids have no conception of what reality on the ground is like. and they are the poorer for it. >> some kids know exactly what they are doing and know exactly where they get the stuff they need are we sleepwalking through this?

>> emily: we are not. people in the white house and in the democratic party's are, they are willfully ignoring the reality. which accompanied the footage of that horrible sweater, which he proudly displayed with the cell phone footage, he said this isn't a pro-hamas -- it is a hamas campsite. at what point do our antiterrorism units take over from the local police? we need that now. >> marc: i think that it is horrible that he has not condemned these protest in the same way he did it in charlottesville. but more so than that, it is the protest are working. they are having the desired effect, president biden is being pressured who is now pressuring the government and is yet to scale back the military operations. we just saw the report the other that they scaled back there strike against iran, under pressure from president biden. they have not launched the

offensive because of president biden. so, there is a direct line from those decisions to president biden, to the protesters in columbia university. so what should happen now? >> dagen: there should be shouting from the rooftops, and condemnation of all of these individuals. one of the ringleaders of columbia was new generation nazi campers and a newly resurfaced video from january said "zionist don't not deserve to live." this individual is calling for the extermination of jewish people. these are hatemongers, they are not for peace or against war, they are terrorists who want jewish people died. and expect a budding terrace to eventually terrorize. they are not brats, they are not children, they are criminals. >> for all of us it's an

interesting point because my generation has always wanted how that the germans allow what happened to happen? now we are getting a little bit of a taste of how this can happen. >> naval chamberlayne looks like winston churchill compared to "outnumbered" if i. >> coming up, trump is now prosecuting the first witness, the latest details of trump criminal trial coming up next. i'm jonathan lawson, here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program.

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morning, and three ba themes emerged from david pecker. the first witness. the first main one was about memory. as you know as an attorney that the statute of limitations exist for a reason. because our memories reign over time. that is the reason this case, should have been tossed out a while ago because so many years have passed. so what the defense did today, without attacking a man in his 70s for not remembering is really poking holes in david pecker's recollection of key events. keep in mind yesterday was elicited on cross-examination that he was prepped by the prosecution multiple times throughout the course of his preparation for his testimony here and that is why his testimony was pretty good yesterday when it came to his direct examination but not as good as cross-examination. because again the defense attorney for trump's poking holes in his testimony. the second thing that stuck out to me is the juxtaposition.

capitalism versus campaign. they were eliciting throughout the course of the testimony today, but a lot of the things that david pecker did wear their own financial gain. there was a financial incentive, and as a fiduciary, david pecker has a desire and obligation in fact to do what was best for the financial interests of ami, auto decisions made reflected that. it was not just for a campaign reason. third, speaking of campaign, it has all been done before. not just a bare naked ladies on, but when it came to donald trump on the primary trail, going after ben carson, and going after marco rubio, there were articles that did appear in the "national enquirer," the end of the those articles appeared in the public record way before them in both the guardian and politico. they are not on trial for campaign violations and so why is trump embroiled in this way he reportedly worked with ami on some of these stories?

that is the key take away and the focus of today, curious as what to redirect will lead to but my guess is that redirect me today and by next week we are onto a whole new witness back over to you. >> emily: , thank you so much. we are questioning why trump is involved in all of this. let's bring in andrew sierawski, so, here's my question to you it was developed this morning that kim also had a interests in the story being squashed. so the question is can you separate motive? doesn't matter if two parties have two different reasons for squishing a story, and if so how do we parse out that intent? >> the take away from david pecker's testimony is that everything that was going on in regards to squishing the stories seems not to be illegal at all. that doesn't even seem to be an underlying obligation as to what is going on even with

donald trump involved and peripherally and just getting back involved in the overall ami and gave a peck of schemes to catch and kill the stories. there is no illegal conduct. there is no fire, that part of the story that is being told here by the prosecutors, it's just a back story to ultimately what the allegation is. that the entries and the writing checks to michael cohen, that was the front and it somehow bears a conspiracy with regard to that. if there is not a crime in bmi part of this and gave it packer's testimony and there's not there seems not to be, that is not felony excavator they were talking about here. it's interesting that they seem to do nothing for the prosecution's case in terms of establishing some sort of criminal conduct. >> emily: so then this an utter failure on the prosecution's part or a larger strategy where he is indeed providing some value to them we are just not sure at this point with the value is? >> , utter failure -- i am

looking at it prospectively in terms of the entire case. they are not required to prove their case with the first witness. so they have the right to essentially have patience in terms of putting on their story from beginning to end and their first witness in any prosecution often can be -- the witness who starts telling the story. so that is what alvin bragg is doing and calling gave up after first because the ami catch and kill scheme was effectively what began on the overall allegation in this case. but, i think when looking at the case at this point, the idea that david pecker and the idea that these ami catch and kill type of schemes are not inherently illegal is what is devastating to the prosecution. i think it is just a little bit of a preview of what us to come up with rich eisen with how difficult it is for the prosecution to ever define where the crime took place. place. >> emily: in terms of what is to come, up the question of who is to come, a trump and his team

still in the dark about the order of the witness is being called or is there any type of communication allowed by the judge that's five? >> one of the battles behind the scene is the defense's desire to get a heads up on how to hold a follow-up witness is going to be. the prosecution has set by giving the headset they think that that is somehow going to create issues and interfere with their ability to put on fair evidence and along with a gag order. we do not know right now who is going to be the next witness, but we do know that the potential witness is a stormy daniels, but what which even say? she doesn't have a role or connection to donald trump. there seems to be no criminal conduct that she has any specific knowledge of. is it michael cohen? i think he is a interesting decision as to where the prosecution puts him because he is not going to be -- he is going to be absolutely devastated with regards to attack on his credibility but nevertheless his testimony is critical to the prosecution's effort to prove this case if they have any chance of proving

it. so do they put them up front? at the very back? i think they're going to close the case with a witness who is going to be destroyed, we just do not know where it's going to go right now. >> emily: answer thank you so much. so, tammy bruce, nothing like the element of surprise. that is the hallmark of our justice system. >> tammy: i believe you're supposed to be told who the witnesses are and whether than a come up. so you can come prepared but the judge days are making very interesting decisions. in a way i do not think if they care if he's going to get reversed on appeal because it is about just keeping him off the streets and it's about the impact and is part of the campaign, and if you get it reversed then it is fine, but they would have made their marc in this process but i don't think it is clearly going to backfire obviously as it already has. >> emily: what you think the jury's thinking? they keep saying the odds are stacked against them but the way

the case is being presented, it seems it is so obvious. >> dagen: it is impossible to know what the jury is thinking, even if you are in the courtroom for every word of every argument. every word of every witness testimony. having cover trials, one thing i would like to reiterate that was stated earlier today is that there are two lawyers into attorneys attorneys on the jury. and that can be trouble. because, you can have, they carry weight in jury deliberations, and you can have people -- it is very easy to say, i am a lawyer, and they can silence dissenting voices. and that can work in the favor of the defense or not. but, we will see. >> happen to me in traffic school. >> so much my "outnumbered" coming up next.

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>> the trump hush money trail going into a break in a few minutes, we will take the time to give you a full breakdown of what is happening with the all-star legal cast, including laura ingraham, andy mccarthy, brett tolman, shannon bream, who was in the courtroom, and katie pavlich. we have the latest on anti-israel protest on college campuses across the land. join us at the top of the hour for "america reports." we will see. >> dagen: it is day eight, at the defense wrapped up cross-examination of publishing exam -- the prosecution is not re-examining him at this moment.

we didn't hear from you in the last segment marc thiessen, what is your take in general? >> marc: the thing about this as we just had the supreme court case the other day. settling the issue of -- adjusting the interests of federal immunity and they wanted like this hadn't been settled before but because we never had a former president prosecutor before. so just 91 charges at the federal, state, and local level to put that in perspective and donald trump is facing 91 charges and that the classified document case where he's being prosecuted for the exact same underlying crimes that joe biden was not prosecuted for because he is senile according to -- because he's too old. convicted in the civil fraud case in a case where all the bank said that there was no victim. they made money and did the lung to diligence and we would do business with him again. hundreds of millions of dollars

in penalties for that. and now this. the only kind that donald trump is not being prosecutor voiced the crime for running for president, they are trying to put him in jail and bankrupting and they're trying to remove them from the ballot this is unprecedented in the history of our country and that is why, do you want to know why he is leading in the poll's right now, why the republican party has rallied around him despite the fact that many people wanted another nominee, it is because of this. they think it is easier to be him, they think that -- he's probably the only republican they think they can be, they may be very surprised in the event that. >> many people are saying that they are looking at the qualified immunity -- >> kara: no victim no crime the more i look at this it looks like a fuss in the something you brought up that i felt was critically important is that this could be part of the strategy because they are trying to pin him down so he cannot get out there so he is wasting a lot of it but also his time in this courtroom you look at the optics

you look at pictures of donald trump in the courtroom and set of pictures of donald trump at construction sites like he was in new york recently where everyone is rallying around him and they are so excited to see the sky and then you look at when he goes to the board and sometimes those border agents let that he's there remember when he was transmitted and he would go under seeker chips to deploy agent zones, they were reading when they saw him. they are trying to tamp down that trump charisma and keeping him in the courtroom and its political. it's a political good. >> i know something that came up cross-examination. they said that michael cohen wants to ask him to send paparazzi to a summer 2016 meeting he was having with billionaire mark cuban because colin thought that it would make donald trump jealous. >> when asked by trump attorney if the follow-up was designed to put pressure on president trump to treat him

differently they said he never said that to him but ultimately admitted to having such photos publisher that would do that. while at this, because they are trying to tarnish what they hope the prosecution help will be the star witness that's curious. trump might do something dear think answer that i idea a gi giant valley? >> for teachers and firefighters yes. and i bet you he appears with the work is again. >> marc: i would like to see him go to the college campuses and do what president biden should have done today. >> we have to marc. "outnumbered" in just a moment.

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friday we are monitoring all for you keep it here in new york from president trump's criminal trials underway with a redirect right now the prosecution's first witness happening plus we are following the anti-israel pro-hamas protest spreading like gross disease on college campuses across the country. among them a rally at george washington university in d.c. marc thiessen quick thoughts. you hold out hopes that president tribble condemned these with the vigor he should? speak i think i am willing to get up and get my seat let's do it and have a debate. let's have president trump child from right to hear they are both in new york let's do it. >> i'm not holding my breath that will actually happen but i love everyone is on board. we are waiting on that debate thank you to everyone for joining us today and here is "america reports." >> i want to start by wishing my wife melania a very happy birthday. i'd like to be with her but i am in a courthouse fo