they don't have free market conditions. so they can be manipulated by the government to boost to get everybody more comfortable, and that would be very much a positive for anybody that's long those stocks. liz: yes. well, you can be nice about it, we'll just say it's called the iron fist. alan, great to have you. thank you very much. [laughter] alan a nutman from the cboe where you can see in these last couple of seconds, here comes the closing bell, there is serious activity. all that noise behind him, why? we have a blue ribbon finish for the s&p and the nasdaq as trade thers wrap up for the week. traders wrap up for the week. s&p up 41, the nasdaq up 185. russell up 21. transports down 6. monday, north dakota governor doug burgum, zscaler's ceo and steve gursky. ♪ larry: hello, folks, welcome to

"kudlow," i'm larry kudlow. donald trump branding the border crisis joe biden's invasion as the president ignores the migrant crime in the u.s. and instead focuses on climate change. oh. now we're going to call illegals newcomers. we're going to ask senator marsha blackburn what she thinks about all that,s plus we've got mike faulkender and judy sheldon on -- is at a 30-year low and congressman scott perry on hunt e bide -- hunter biden's admission that the big guy was on his calls. and katie pavlich limp alan dershowitz on donald trump's eight amendment rights and other things. first up, our own griff jenkins, the great, is down in -- live from brownsville, texas, with more on yesterday's border visit. griff jenkins, the great. i love that. >> reporter: hey. good afternoon, larry.

and it was presidential dueling down on the border separated by 300 miles. but area just 9 months ago was the epicenter of the migrant crisis with thousands coming across here to brownsville. now it's one of the slowest in the country. ironically, not because of what the biden administration did, but because texas put up that razor wire, an obstruction. but with over in eagle pass where president trump was, he, of course, took the microphones, delivered remarks. here's some of what he said taking a shot at president biden. listen here, larry. >> this is a biden invasion. over the past three years, i call him crooked joe because he's crooked. he's a terrible president, the worst president our country's ever had and probably the most incompetent president we've ever had. but it's allowing thousands and thousands of people to come in from china, iran, yemen, the congo, syria and a lot of other nations. now the united states being

overrun by the biden migrant crime. >> reporter: now, when we came down here, larry, the white house put out a fact sheet about the, quote, impact of the senate border bill legislation. among it, they started using that term, newcomer. here's what they said, quote: the bill also includes $1.4 billion for cities and states providing critical services to newcomers and would expedite work permits for people who are in the country and qualify. but i just want to show you video of when i was in california. the thousands of migrants coming across over there. san diego's the second busiest sector across the entire southwest border. many of them, hundreds of chinese, i gave you the chinese id that was discarded on the ground, larry, last time i was on set with you. i didn't really see them the as newcomers, they are illegally crossing aliens. that's what the border patrol calls them. i want to show you a tweet from congressman tony gonzalez, the

republican congressman who represents the eagle pass area. quote: i have a 23-year-old daughter, and this is well beyond the politics. wherever you live in this country, you don't feel safe. so would you call that illegal alien that killed laken riley a newcomer? i wouldn't. i'd call them a criminal. finally, larry, i asked president biden -- i shouted a question, do you bear any if responsibility for lake aren riley's death can as a result of your policies. he ignored me, turned around and walked out of the room. larry? larry: yeah. you know, griff, mr. trump actually called her parents to offer his condolences. biden, of course, ignores the whole situation. that kind of wraps it up for me. but anyway, griff jenkins, you're terrific, as always. come back to me on set. i want to talk to you on if set. [laughter] all right, folks, my quick thoughts before we bring in senator black burp. with -- blackburn. i haven't seen any if specific references yet to two very

important laws passed by congress and signed by other presidents that will go a long way towards soing -- solving joe biden's catastrophic open border policy and the roughly 10 million if illegals who have entered our country, all right? take a listen. first, something called section 212f of the immigration and nationality act which give requests the president authority, and i will quote, to pus suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens, end quote. it's actually similar to president trump's title 42, but it's broader than a public health emergency. now, second point, the illegal immigration reform and immigrant responsibility act of 1996 which which added section 287g, 287g, to the immigration and nationality act. and the twist of this amendment to the immigration and

nationality act is it authorized u.s. immigration and customs enforcement, i.c.e., to tell gate to state and local law enforcement officers -- to delegate the authority to perform specified immigration officer functions under the agency's direction and oversight. what's more, 287g gives i.c.e. and local law enforcement partners who identify and remove incarcerated -- to identify and remove incarcerated criminal. non-citizens to protect the homeland through the arrest and removal of non-citizens who undermine if the safety the of our nation's communities and the integrity of u.s. immigration laws. now, i'm going through all of this because joe biden -- and, for that matter, any other president -- has the legal authority to stop illegal immigrant requests right -- immigrants right at the border and the legal authority to deport illegals who are

criminals. they may be many in sanctuary city, but they can still be deported. these bills would override sanctuary cities. and they would open the door to a massive deportation of illegals working with local from police and and with i.c.e. now, this is essentially what former president trump wants, and and he couldn't be any clearer about it. he wants to go back to building a wall, remain in mexico, title 42 and the policy of catch and deport. mr. trump wants to mount a national campaign with all the local police authorities and and all the law enforcement to deport the criminals. by the way, joe biden's phony border bill not even asks if illegals coming into this country were criminals in their own country. and, unfortunately, we're finding out there's plenty of that. hence, the terrible tragedy of

laken riley and many others. absolute tragedies. in his visit to brownsville, all biden could do was attack republicans and push his spending bill which would solve nothing regarding illegal immigration. biden didn't announce any executive actions, and those the are a actions that are fully legal as mentioned in the legislative acts that i referenced earlier. mr. trump, on the other hand, made it perfectly clear that he would use his congressionally-mandated executive power to once again close the border and go after the criminals, let loose inside this country. that is what the 45th president refers to when he talks about illegal migrant crime. and ironically, down there in eagle pass what mr. trump the -- where mr. trump visited, texas governor greg abbott's razor wire fence barricades have been working and slashing the number of illegals coming across. there's a lesson in that. there's a lesson in following the law. joe biden's a hopeless open

border man. he wants to call them newcomers. what does that tell you? maybe it tells you everything you need to know. it's been a catastrophic situation for america, and donald trump has plenty of legal executive authority to end this mess. i just tried to clarify all that. those laws are for real. all right. now, let us bring in great tennessee senator ms. martha black burn to weigh in on this -- marsha blackburn. it's a pleasure, as always, ma'am. >> good to see you. larry: you've got two laws, two specific laws, okay? in the -- passed by congresses and signed by presidents to, a, stop the illegals from coming across the border and, b, to go after illegals inside the country who may be criminals and get rid of them, a deportation program. i don't know why joe biden doesn't abide by those laws. i'll let you talk about that, because the bill he's proposed

doesn't do any such thing. >> well, the bill he has proposed is an immigration bill, it's not a border security bill. and what the american people want to see is a border that is secure. like it was under president donald trump. and, larry, you referenced the 287g program. those programs were very popular with local law enforcement because it gave them the ability to ap a rehend and hold -- apprehend and hold and then deport individuals who were committing crimes in their communities. and i had a piece of legislation years ago called the clear act. we didn't get it passed while i was in the house. we have dusted it out, and we're refiling it, and it would require i.c.e. when they are contacted by local law enforcement to come and deport those individuals that local law enforcement hasp apprehended and

to reimburse them for the expenses that they have incurred. what is happening with every town being a border town and every state a border state under joe biden, you have local law enforcement that is having to deal with drug dealers and cartels and human traffic thers, sex traffickers. they're dealing with unprecedented crime and gangs that are spurring this crime. and if joe biden wanted to end this today, he could. he could use the same authority that president donald trump used when he was president. and and i am so looking forward to november when we reelect president donald trump and we return to securing our border and supporting our local law enforcement that is ending up on the front line in this immigration debate. larry: senator, you know, talking about 287g and maybe

your clear act, but let me just focus on 287g, it looked to me on reading in that that would override -- this that that would override sanctuary cities where they will not release any criminals. is that true? or to we need additional legislation? >> we -- 287g with its given authority should override -- larry: right. >> -- the sanctuary city policies. but to be sure that i.c.e. comes and receives, they deport these people like the venezuelan gang member that killed laken riley. new york city let him go before the detownment order -- detainment order could be issued to i.c.e. so then he left the state. that's what these criminal illegal aliens are doing. if they carry out a crime, and then they look for fresh territory and they go there. thereby people that have never seen gangs are seeing gangs in

their communities and neighborhoods, and they are carrying out the carjackings, the smash and grab, the home burglaries. they are going into communities and trying to recruit young people to be a part of the gang. and people are saying let's get in behind this and stop this, and local law enforcement is saying we need additional help in order to be able to get i.c.e. to do their job. deport these people. we don't need to be flying these people coming to the southern border seeking asylum to places in the united states. we need to send them back where they came from. larry: but you know, senator, language is very important. when i read -- >> yes. larry: -- and hear the white house and the president now refer to the illegals as newcomers, okay, when i hear that, it almost tells me everything i want to know or everything i don't want to know, that he will never be serious

about a closing the border. his proposed bill would open the border, i don't know, 5-8,000 people a week, i don't know what it's going to -- all these trigger points that nobody understands. this is an enabling bill to help newcomers. and that is not, i think, what you want. it's not what i want. i don't think it's what the country wants. >> you're exactly right. and and language is important. the actual statutory language for someone that illegally enters the country is illegal alien. and then it was immigrants, then it was migrants and now it is newcomers. here's what this administration is trying to do, they keep trying to make illegal legal. and they're trying to make illegal immigration legal. they even came up with an app. if you go use this app, then we're going to let you come on in. and they're granting parole. you know, the killer over in

georgia had been granted parole by dhs. it wasn't even an asylum claim. so language is important. having a president who will aboud by the rule of law -- abide by the rule of law is an absolute necessity. and we can pass all a sorts of laws and, you know what? joe biden is not going to enforce them because an open, reckless border is his border policy. hr. larry: yes, ma'am. senator marsha blackburn, we appreciate you very much. thank you for coming back on. >> you got it. take care. larry: coming up here on "kudlow," why is economic freedom in the united states at a 30-year low? you know, freedom matters for growth and prosperity. so we'll ask michael faulkender and judy shelton. remember, catch "kudlow" monday through friday, 4 p.m., right here on fox biz. and if you can't make it at four, just text your favorite

9-year-old, and she will show you how to dvr the show, and you will never miss a new, closed border. i'm kudlow. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪

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even the basement. the basement. so i can finally throw that party... and invite shannon barnes. dream do come true. xfinity gives you reliable wifi with wall-to-wall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. maybe we'll even get married one day. i wonder what i will be doing? probably still living here with mom and dad. fast reliable speeds right where you need them. that's wall-to-wall wifi on the xfinity 10g network. larry: all right, economic freedom in the u.s. has fall opinion to the lowest level since 1995. that in the latest index of economic freedom from the if heritage foundation. this is not good, kids, not good. here to tell us why, mike fall if conder, chief economist at afpi, and he teaches school at the university of maryland. we with also have judy shelton,

senior fellow at the up dependent institute, former trump economic adviser. hey, fall conder, the u.s. has slipped so low, it's like 15 european countries below us, 15. we've been -- this is the worst since 1995 when this thing start thed. started. too much spending and taxing and and regulating. we're almost as bad as germany. wait a second, we are as bad as germany. what is going on here? >> well, you're right, larry, it's the combination of those three things. when the government comes in and says that's not your money, we're going to take it from you with, they think they can spend it better than you know how to spend it, and most importantly, is tacking on an extraordinary amount of regulation on to the american people, that's going to curb their freedom. our friends if over at the american action forum track the regulations that come out of our government. and just since joe biden took office, the first three years of his administration, we've seen their estimates of about $450 billion worth of economic costs

from regulation and another $28 -- 280 million hours spent complying with regulation. that's 9 times the amount of economic impact as we saw during the first three years of the trump administration. so that's e what's really curbing the freedom that we're seeing in that index. larry: judy shelton, we are, in this index, 25 out of 176 countries. 25. and falling fast, okay? and we're not even free, free. like, it's not capitalist anymore. the top rung, taiwan with, ireland, switzerland, singapore, etc. i love ireland with a 12.5% corporate tax rate. we're sort of hanging on to mostly free, mostly free by our toenails, i think the, or our fingernails. so this is nothing to crow about. and all these europeans are more capitalist than we are. oh, my goodness. >> no, this is just sad. but it's also a call to arms. the enemy is socialism.

the enemy is statism, collect iism, to coat the few president of around general -- quote the new president of argentina p. i'm sure you've been following him. he's saying these redistributionist policies and big government have just made around a general teen that, which was once a very rich country, absolutely misrabble -- argentina. for me, the villain is all the big e spending, the deficit spending. i don't think everyone wants to be chasing government subsidies. a lot of americans still believe in personal if freedom and private interpriesms. larry: mike fall conder, i hope you listened to what a judy said. very important stuff. this is, to use newt gingrich's phrase, big government social im. newt warned about this, i don't know are with, three years ago in a column on this show and elsewhere. we are practicing big government socialism. which means we are losing our freedoms because, as judy suggested, all these government

programs, they're spending programs but they have strings attached to them. so they become regulatory the programs. and before you know it, the government is running the economy, and that's why we've fallen. i mean, 25 out of 176, that is not good. so my question is, what are you going to do about it? >> what we are going to do is we are going to reverse course on all of those things. so as you just said, first and foremost, we have got to deregulate. and the most important place that we do that is in the energy sector. we've got to drill, baby, drill. unleash american energy production. 9 and the way that we do that, we take the shackles off of the energy industry through massive amount as of deregulation. the other thing is we've got to massively cut the amount of government spending. if the government is not directing society's resources and we're instead returning that authority back to the american people and private enterprise, we're going to see much more efficient use of resources. then when we see government

bureaucrats thinking they can do it better themselves. we have to extend the tax cuts and jobs act that has all the incentives in order to allocate capital in an effective way, and of course, we need to have sound money, sound financial institutions and reciprocal trade deals where we make sure that the products that we create here in the united states are treated fairly when our, when we export them abroad just as when we purchase products from other -- larry: all right. no, no -- >> so that's the plan that we would suggest -- larry: that's a good menu. if trump wins, i think he's going to want to use executive budget empowerment power which would stop unnecessary and inefficient spending programs. just take 'em right out. judy shelton, i've only got 30 seconds, but with the bidens, they're spending like there's no tomorrow. that's inflationary. the federal reserve's trying to cut back, they're keeping their interest rates high and their balance sheet relatively low. that's not a good combination,

it seems to me. one-sided spending, inflation. and the other side, monetary restraint. i've only got 25, 30 seconds. it can't last forever, can it? >> it's a terrible combination, and it's one that shifts power from the private sector to the government because government will just keep paying those high interest rates. and then the rest of us are kind of working for the company store where the interest costs of financing the government debt are a burden on everyone. we just have to change our mindset, and we have to cut the public sector jobs and all of the subsidies. that would be putting us back on the track toward sound finances and sound money. larry: yeah, well said. it's funny, sure, the government will pay the high interest rates to borrow, but it's really coming out of the taxpayers' hide. your exactly right. fabulous stuff. judy, michael, well done. appreciate it. coming up here, hunter biden

admits the big guy was on the business calls. wait a second, he wasn't involved in any finances or any businesses or any influence peddling. really, huh? no kidding? we'll have pennsylvania congressman scott perry weigh in. plus, in a moment, the democrats' double freakout. i'm not going to tell you what it is, but it's a double freakout. katie pavlich and charlie hurt. all of that and more when "kudlow" returns. ♪ ♪ if ver 280,000 acres. three forks ranch is the destination for luxury and adventure. enjoy fly fishing and america's finest trout stream. kick back for intimate performances from the best in country music. enhance your wellness and longevity through our mayo clinic programs, or plan your meeting for a memorable corporate retreat. discover the west kept secret. go to three forks ranch.com to book your luxury experience.

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some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. larry: all right, the fani willis fiasco could be coming to an end. final arguments are being heard today down there in atlanta, georgia. fox news senior correspondent steve harrigan there live with the latest. lots going on today, steve. what's cooking? >> reporter: that's right, larry. it was uninterpreted -- uninterrupted today. this has been going on for seven weeks. it's really the prosecutors who have been on trial, both fani

willis and the prosecutor she hired, nathan wade. defense attorneys tried to make the case that both of them lied about when their relationship started ask that both of them profited from this prosecution. here's larry merchant. >> the issue is that they began this relationship in 2019. they were dating for two years, and then she awarded him a contract. where public money, either from fulton county or the state of georgia, ended up in his pockets. that decision alone was improper. what's even more improper is that then she and he used that money to go on personal vacations and trips. >> reporter: the judge has said even the appearance of a conflict of interest could be enough to remove either willis, or wade or both of them. he said he's likely to give his decision sometime in the next two weeks. larry, back to you. larry: all right, very good. thanks, steve steve harrigan. we appreciate it, as always. switching gears just a little bit, in testimony, depositions

before congress this week, hunter biden admitted he put his father on the speakerphone during business meetings, but then hunter said his father wasn't involved. you go figure. i don't know. joining me now, pennsylvania congressman scott perry, who's probably not going to have any of it. i mean, that's kind of interesting, scott. [laughter] we just happen to have these phone calls, and i guess the vice president was on the horn, but he was just there to be there. maybe he didn't have anything else to do. he wasn't a good vice president is. ha, ha, ha. never involved in the any of these business dealings. let's start with that. what do you make of that defense? >> well, it's not much of a defense. actually, i think it's an admission that the vice president was there, and i suspect if you do cell phone data location for the time of those phone calls, you'll find out that he was right there. and for the president -- for the now-president to say he had no

dealings, he had no knowledge of his son's business dealings and for his son to say that his father, the president of the united states, had no knowledge of it, none of that adds up. and i would just say that if you could read, you can read 18usc201, i believe, which says that taking money is an -- as an official act is bribery and is illegal. and even if it's for a third person, so even if, even if joe biden didn't get the money but hunter did, it's bribery. it's illegal. and he was involved. larry: scott perry, you were in the deposition hearing, you were there? >> i stopped over for a little while, yes. larry: so you watched hunter a answer questions? >> i did. larry: do you think he was lying? directly -- you know, you look at somebody's eyes, you watch their movements, their body language and so forth. do you think he was lying or telling the truth? >> i think it's very difficult

to betray your parents, let me just say that. i think it's very difficult to betray your parents and to also put yourself in legal jeopardy which might include time in jail. if most people would shy away from that, i think we're, quite honestly, i think that's what we're seeing in the fani willis case as well. it doesn't seem like the facts bear out the transcript, so to speak, or the testimony. but that having been said, we need a little more time to line some facts up with some testimony and get some things corroborated. remember, hunter's now, you know, at the tail end of a long list of witnesses. larry: well, i think if you havs about an open hearing with hunter, but i think that just gives him the advantage. he will just spin yarns, tell stories, or act out, blah, blah, blah. i mean, the fbi's taken down this guy smirnov who was supposed to be one of their top informants, they paid hum for --

him for years. all of a sudden they think he's lying, so they're throwing him in jail. now, i had jamie comer, chairman comer, on the show earlier this week. you've got all these -- you've got checks, you've got tracings of the every biden family member that had a little company, an lllc. i guess my question to you with, scott, is this hearing, is this whole impeachment inquiry, is it coming to a dead end? i'm asking this honestly. >> yeah, sure. larry: or is there more to do than can be done? because i don't think you got from hunter what you wanted to get. i just don't think that a panned out. so you've got a lot of checks, a lot of suspicious financial activity. >> right. larry: so my question to you in the last minute is, what from here? is this whole inquiry coming to an end? >> i don't think it is coming to an end and, quite honestly, i think participant of the untold story is the fbi, the department of justice, the irs' involvement in the fact that they arrested

summer if november after years of paying dim -- smirnov as paying him for years and the only thing he's charged with is lying just on this occasion. at the same time, no one ever thought about, apparently, arresting christopher steele who apparently lied to the fbi and was a paid informant. it just is very suspicious to me, larry. i think the more we continue to turn over rocks, the more snakes we're going to find. larry: all right. i hear you. scott perry, thank you ever so much. we appreciate it. all right, folks, let's talk a little politics. like we never talk politics. let's talk politics. the democrats have a double freak outcoming. we'll describe in just a minute. we are graced with katie pavlich, fox news contributor right on set with me -- [laughter] and charlie hurt, who doesn't like me and is still in washington. [laughter] washington times opinion editor and fox news contributors, and he's keeping his distance.

>> i don't want to be there for katie. >> i'm a lot of fun. larry: just to be on set with katie, are you asked -- kidding me? anyway, here's the point, byron york, distinguished columnist, the democrats' double freakout. a, a whole series of new polls show donald trump or is winning every swing state over mr. biden. and a lot of them by considerable margins. and then, b, i want a to come first. b, it turns out the democrats assault, the legal warfare is not panning out. jack smith cannot get off the ground because the supreme court is deciding to look at immunity. they probably won't get done with that until the summer, and i doubt if there's somehow going to be a trial on the eve of the election. ing if there would, it'd be reallying something. fani willis, it looks to me like disqualification or perjury. but what do i know? and byron said the dems are just not happy. first, katie pavlich, all the swing states going for joe,

going for donald trump. why is this? why to you reckon? >> well, i think it's the basic concept of is your life better off now than it was four years ago, typical, right? joe biden is in a different position now than he was, obviously, during the last campaign. donald trump is out there. don't underestimate the power of unfinished business e when it comes to what he wants to do. and we're seeing something we really haven't seen before in presidential politics. we have a direct comparison between the guy before, the guy in office now, what people had and what they don't have now as a result of joe biden's policies. and also joe biden ran as a moderate, he has not governed in a moderate way. in places like michigan you're seeing revolt in rank and file unions, you're seeing people pull away in places like michigan. so it's a rematch for the ages, absolutely. and donald trump is the one who's out there with all the energy when the majority of the country doesn't believe that a joe biden's even capable of running for a second term, including democrats.

larry: yeah. charlie it's interesting, paul krugman, you know paul krugman, you've probably talked to him all the time to get some economic and political advice. >> oh, yes. larry: so krugman -- >> we hang out together at the bar. larry: i figured. [laughter] krugman in "the new york times" writes a column called the mystery of white rural rage, okay? now, this is wonderful. michael goodwin of the missouri post wrote this terrific -- of the new york post wrote this the terrific column. white rural or rage is arguably the single greatest threat facing american democracy, according to drug match. this has a feel to it of hillary clinton's deplorables. nikki haley didn't understand -- stuff like the border catastrophe, the lack of law and order, the poor economic performance as katie said, you're not better, you're worse off than you were three, four years ago. keeping peace around the world. none of that matters. it's all white rural rage.

that's what krugman says. what do you make of that, charlie? >> well, of course, paul krugman is a huckster himself, and he doesn't know anything about rural america. i don't think he would survive very long in rural america if he had to raise his own food or herd cattle or do anything constructive. i think that it would not work out well for him which is why he works at the new york times. you know, he looks around at the wasteland that our political leaders have made of job opportunities many much of rural america, and the only statistic he really looks at is, well, i still have a job is, i still work for "the new york times", so i don't with really care. that's kind of who the new york times is, that's who paul krugman is, and that's fine. but the problem here -- and and, luck key for him he's not running for office, because he also couldn't get elected dogcatcher anybody anywhere even probably in his neighborhood in

new york city. and i think katie's a exactly right, but the problem is people like paul krugman and democrats have spent so much time belittling trump supporters and belittling the people who look to donald trump for real, a real response to things, and they have so vilified these people, and they vilified donald trump. and their whole strategy so to put him in jail, to be bankrupt his family. and meanwhile, donald trump is just focused on the issues. and if as katie says, anybody who looks at where they were four years ago compared to today based on the issues, based on the things that actually matter to them, they're much more worse off today. and if they realize -- and they realize that donald trump has the answers, these people don't. larry: i mean, you know with, trump is winning the white working class, or he's winning the black, african-american working class, winning the hispanic working folks. he's working asian working folks. he -- >> can i just say something about rural america?

i'm from rural america, and i spend a lot of time driving around rural america. they have been attacked for decades. their jobs have been shipped overseas. the government spending, the money -- it's made their dollar worthless. their food is unaffordable. people in washington, d.c. and new york city tell them they have to control how much fuel they use, making their lifestyle more expensive, what kind of dishwasher they're allowed to have, how much water can come out of their spigot, and when they dare to push back and vote for donald trump, they say they should be monitored and there's this threat to democracy through white rage. you want to talk about -- you wouldn't be allowed to talk about any other group -- larry: last minute, katie, help me out. the other freakout is jack smith and the democrats' lawfare. the clock is running against them. they will not be able to throw trump in jail for 750 years. the supreme court is going to do a careful review of trump's immunity pledge if or immunity

defense. what do you make of that? it's not finish and, of course, the fiasco in georgia and the fiasco in new york. this lawfare campaign doesn't seem to be working out -- >> well, the lawfare was banking on the timeline of before the election because they really want to get donald trump convicted before then. it's falling apart. the systems that they are trying to use, that they say they depend on, are not working. larry: yeah. >> they're not relying on democracy to determine this outcome as they claim they're protecting it. they're trying to use the court system to convict donald trump so people vote against him. larry: i've got to jump. sorry, we're short of time. i like the white rural rage. i think this is democrats do not understand why working folks might go for trump. katie pavlich and charlie hurt, thanks for coming by. >> see ya. larry: coming up, is donald trump's mega fine in new york unconstitutional? speaking of lawfare, we're going to talk about it with the great alan dershowitz. lots more coming on "kudlow."

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i think he's having a midlife crisis i'm not. you got us t-mobile home internet lite. after a week of streaming they knocked us down... ...to dial up speeds. like from the 90s. great times. all i can do say is that my life is pre-- i like watching the puddles gather rain. -hey, your mom and i procreated to that song. oh, ew! i think you've said enough. why don't we just switch to xfinity like everyone else? then you would know what year it was. i know what year it is. larry: all right. alan dershowitz writes in the daily caller, is trump's mega fine unconstitutional? he joins us now, professor i emeritus at harvard law school and author of "get trump: the

threat to civil liberties, due process and our constitution constitution rule of law." professor, as always, sir, it's great to see you. thank you very much. does mr. trump, in your judgment, have an eighth amendment defense for the supreme court? >> yes. first, i wrote the article for gatestone. it was copied by caller, but it was gatestone the. i want to credit -- [audio difficulty] there are cases that -- [audio difficulty] if it quack withs like a duck and walks like a duck, if it's a state-imposed fine intended to deter conduct in the future, its punishment can't be excessive in relationship to what is alleged to have happened. and here you have no if damage to anybody, nobody was hurt, no bank was hurt, nobody complained. there are no plaintiffs except for the state.

and he didn't make profit because had they tried to raise the interest rates, as you know, he would have gone to another bank and gotten the same, perhaps even a lower interest rate. he was a very good customer. so this is a punishment and way excessive. so i think he has a substantial chance of getting the fine reduced considerably. larry: i mean, one thought i had, my non-lawyer head, but what they've done here, you know, prohibiting trump from running any of the organizations, prohibiting his sons for a few years, i think trump forever, the resorts and and hotels and buildings and so forth, they have an international, across the u.s. and across the world they're doing commerce with so many other entities not in new york city. i just wonder if there's a commerce clause or a commerce thought, because you can't relegate their businesses just to new york. they may be chartered in new york, but they're doing business throughout the united states and overseas.

>> yeah. i think you would be a great lawyer because you're absolutely right. let's assume that was incorporated in delaware, a tiny little state. you can't do business anywhere else in the world, that would raise a commerce clause issue. as hamilton said when he was the treasury secretary and turned us into a major with commercial enterprise from an agrarian one, you know, we are one country commercially and economically and state boundaries don't determine how economics work. it did when we had slavery and when we had the cotton gin and all that, but, you know, we are -- [audio difficulty] we have a state like california which has a gross national product larger than most countries. and so, yeah, it's a very interesting commerce if clause argument that i hadn't thought of. [laughter] larry: well, thank you, sir. last question -- [laughter] i joan enjoy having you on. high-level stuff. do you think the supreme court will accept a case based on the eighth amendment? have they, have they in the past

or the recent past? >> no. not cases like this. they generally stay away from eighth amendment cases. but, look -- [inaudible] taking trump cases, the colorado case, they've taken the -- [audio difficulty] in the district of columbia x. this one doesn't raise presidential issues, but it raises issues about whether you can circumvent the eighth amendment by calling something civil and really using it to impose a fine. if this had been a criminal case, obviously, the fine would be exits i. so i would hope -- excessive. so i would hope that the supreme court might take the case. larry: all right. terrific stuff. professor alan dershowitz, as always, sir, we appreciate your time. folks, we're going to take a quick break, and i'm going to come back with my last word. ♪

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an