[000:00:00;00] we will never return to the ukraine we lived in in 2022, on february 24, 2022, this ukraine died under the blows of russian troops, and we can only build a new ukrainian state, a post-war ukraine, no matter when this construction begins in the 20s and 30s of the 21st century , we must do everything so that this new ukraine, which will emerge from a terrible, exhausting war, will be a strong and successful state for those citizens of ukraine. who will make a choice to stay on its territory, it is also necessary to understand what it is not everyone who lives today , today in the ukrainian region of the state, many will simply not live to see this new state, many will want to leave it, but we will fight for every citizen who will make a choice to live in such a dangerous post-war situation, in any case , in any case, if the west helps ukraine, if ukraine is a fortress of those who

actually protect the civilized world ... important ambitions of russia, then this means that we can wait for russian exhaustion, well at least some part of ukrainians , those who will remain, but those people who are thinking about negotiations, they must understand their recipe exactly, the recipe is to wait, together with the event, until the forces in russia decrease, and again , it may happen, we just don’t we know, as we never know the real situation in the authoritarian world, that these... resources in russia are not so great that you and i talked about 10 years, or maybe it's a year or two, maybe it's two or three years and that's it, two years have already passed, but two or three more years, and this will lead to moscow's real desire to put an end to this struggle, again, it must be remembered that

ukraine is not in this war. a lonely country, that we are part of a coalition of the civilized world, that the civilized world has decided, let's say, with the help of the ukrainian armed forces and with the readiness of ukrainian citizens to withstand all the difficulties of a long-term exhausting war, thus proving to russia that a country that violates international law, a country, which occupies foreign territories, countries, which took a course to exterminate the people of a neighboring country and does not see anything immoral in this, that... it is not wins in such a situation, this is what western politicians talk about all the time, we will do everything so that ukraine does not lose this war, but it depends on the ukrainians to what extent they are ready to be such an important, i would say, historical instrument of proof that, well, that all this is a great responsibility, i would say and a kind of burden, listen, we have already read all this, it

is all written in the bible in the first, in the first of these, well, this is a book of exodus by and large, so what is the lord, if we move on on such terminology that the lord wanted to prove to the pharaoh that the one who mocks, ugh , those who are weaker, those who cannot defend themselves, those who do not receive respect for their human dignity, that he cannot win. he will lose this pharaoh, tyrant , dictator, such putin of that time , relatively speaking, he is simply shown there in the bible, you can think that this is a civilized world, but the lord himself does not go to the battlefield, he creates the conditions, he does not meets the pharaoh, not once, as biden does not meet with putin,

he sends moses to the pharaoh. such a custom zeumov zelenskyi, who doesn’t even know how to speak very well, is spoken for by the head of his office, aaron, well, in fact, it’s a very similar story, and here and there moses explains that pharaoh must be released, we want to go pharaoh says: no, not at all, who are you such, but the jewish people in this story are an instrument to prove that civilization, that the truth always wins over tyranny and... again, when the jewish people leave egypt, that happiness awaits them, well, you have to read that there is nothing good there , is a journey through the desert, to which the ukrainians went, this is when independence was declared, and then when the war began, and this is when the real journey has already begun, so will they reach the promised land? of course, those who are here will not make it, this is all done for the sake of children and grandchildren, what a promised land, and this is a journey through the desert, for the sake of the journey,

for the sake of changes in oneself. well, i don't have that, it 's sunday in general, i apologize, the sermon , what i'm saying, is every, every priest in the orthodox, catholic, even protestant. that's it, but you can ask why, why do we have to walk in the desert for 40 years, why not the nubians, the hittites, but because they stayed in egypt, why, you left, you wanted freedom, took it and left, but we would sit, we would say that russian, like you, everything would be fine, they chose. putin prayed to the bear, to the patriarch of this idiot kirill, kirill , by the way, declared a holy war, well , there is a cause-and-effect relationship for this, this is what moses tried to explain to the jews when they were in the desert, you decide, you agreed

to go, what you wanted to see here, and they to him the ukrainians said, by the way, it is possible, we were going to go there for 10 days, the road would take 10 days, well, excuse me, two or three weeks, two or three weeks, two or three weeks, okay, oh. and it turned out that we have been going for 40 years, why, because no, because it was your wish to get there in 10 days, and there is no legal problem there, it is a different route, you have to cross the sea, it is to the side, everyone, who knows the geography of the middle east, they know that there is nowhere to go there at all, even now we can walk from egypt to israel, but if we go around, it is a long time, well, this is such a story, this is how we are moving towards our freedom, and we need to understand this as such a geopolitical challenge, you can not read the history of the country, you can read the bible, everything is written there, the result is also known, but with necessarily, the people who want to enter the kingdom of freedom

enter it, but in the form of their slings of their descendants, if they do not make mistakes, if not even if they make mistakes, then it just goes longer, goes, just every mistake - this is a plus of 10 years, in what? problem and the next generation, i am calm here ukrainian people, but look, regarding the mistakes along the way, well, we understand that we are not at all saints and of course we allow them, when we talk about the people to whom we have delegated power in this country, as a people, they too can make certain mistakes, can we talk about what is happening in our country, well, at least in the context of recent personnel rotations. trying to fix something, that is, we are not completely sure whether these are some mistakes, but that in order to answer this question, we need to understand the logic of personnel decisions, since we have not done it since 2019 understand, then i think that we should not comment on it, we cannot comment on what we do not

understand, because we do not understand how some people get into certain positions, how they get rid of them, and why new people come, we we know that the president of ukraine is solely responsible, yes, it is the decision of the ukrainian people, what is happening there, you understand, it does not matter, when 73% of citizens vote for one person, then even then they are given a parliamentary majority, then it is for by and large the road to electoral autocracy, you know that in the ranking of world democracies , ukraine occupies a prominent place as an electoral autocrat. well, it happened, there is nothing good there, by and large, ukraine is the only european state, if we do not consider lukashenko's belarus, which is on this list, as european russia, but we have a long way to go, at least from the point of view of lecturing

democracies, like ours neighbors, and by the way, this is not an easy task, you know, that's why i mentioned this list, because just this year, for the first time, israel was included in... this for him, the biggest defeat in 50 years , because israel was on the list of liberal democracies, and thanks to the judicial reform, the conflict between political forces and so on, he lost this place, so it is not easy, not easy, we, i hope, will reach that we will become an electoral electoral democracy after the war, or maybe sometime in the 30-40s and a liberal democracy, we have all the possibilities for this, but what am i talking about ? that as a result of such one-man rule, we can consider it in the monarchical ee, so to speak

monarchical comparisons. well, here is king ludovic, whom everyone knows from the novel the three musketeers by oleksandr dzyum batko. he had a beautiful favorite, huh. cardinal richelieu, well, he chose him as a favorite, the cardinal was a great minister, he built half of paris, remember? well, that is, a serious serious job, you could say as the head, the head of france, but it was the king's choice, the king could have chosen another person, and he was chosen by the cardinal, uh , eventually he died, and another cardinal was chosen, cardinal mazarin, he was no longer like that successful. and the french did not perceive him in the same

way as richelieu, but he had the same completeness of power, and again, this completeness was the responsibility of the monarch after all, right? well, at least it should be , yes, well, but this is god's anointed, here the same person has such a national mandate, she chooses who works with her based on sympathy, well, ludovik was far from those... of public work, but he sympathized with rechelier, rechelier was an impeccable statesman, and then he sympathized mazarinni, well, what are you going to do here, well, if there are such opportunities, well, of course, it can be considered that this is a republic, but it is a conditional republic in such conditions, when we cannot hold elections, when we do not have an electoral process, we cannot even for presenting a claim here to president zelenskyi, well, in connection with the war, he turned out to be such an uncrowned monarch of this country, well, what can you do, especially since... other institutions degraded the parliament back in the 19th year it already

degraded 5 years ago, but not now it has been gone for a long time, because these people who sit in the parliament, i mean the majority, they read the names of the ministers from pieces of paper, they could not even pronounce the names of the people they voted for correctly, this is not a parliament, this is a kind of kindergarten, there is no government, many people will not even remember the name of the previous prime minister of ukraine, in the fourth year or in the 34th there will be elections and

the people will decide, well, mr. vitaly, i understand that you avoid commenting on these changes, that's why i don't know, these people, you you don't know who shefir is, you and i have been talking about it since the 19th year, i know, shefir, but i absolutely do not know how much influence shefir, who was such a business partner and a friend, has, how much he is connected at all with the position of first assistant to the president, i don't know why. i really don’t know this, and you don’t know this, that is , the meaning of the shefir is that he is the shefir, or that he is the first assistant to the president, that was berezovsky, a very similar figure, by the way, he was a deputy for some time secretary of the security council of the russian federation, was the executive secretary of the cis, which caused such a fright, and it also forced me, as you do, to analyze whether it is something that

cannot be analyzed. roman abramovich was the governor of chukotka, this is of some great importance, well, i don't know what he needed there in chukotka, that is, i know, but i won't say, but this, but it's definitely not related to politics, that's about it in this case too, the chief was removed from the position of first assistant. he generally performed these duties recently, where is he? ugh, it generally works with the president, maybe he doesn't work , maybe he continues to have good personal relationships, but we don't know anything, we don't know anything at all , you understand, we don't know what happens in the inner circle, in the office, it's the same as doing criminology, but when we were engaged in criminology, we had at least 15... portraits of members of the politburo, well,

they hung on the houses, it was the politburo, they voted there from time to time in different ways, and the way they were hung on the first demonstrations, we could at least figure out who no, who has more influence, who has less, because for reasons i still do not understand, they were posted according to the level of influence, they were announced alphabetically, and they were posted according to the level of flow , there is nothing like that, there is no politburo, we do not know who these are people, what was their real influence, whether it was there at all, what they did in their positions, this is anonymous power, well, how about it with many. in utopian novels where there are people we know nothing about, there is the first person, we know everything about her, no words, she is, she appears, gives an interview, we are we comment on the interview, etc., we also don't know what the interview is like, what she thinks about real politics, because it is unknown, but few people, she does not meet, as a rule, with ukrainian journalists, that is, they meet only with westerners, who you

look at in the first person as a symbol of resistance, well, that is, we don't know anything either, this is a fantastic figure that is known to most ukrainians. not so much from political activities, but from television series, where she played roles, and was not a real person, that is, this is also an image, an image, more in general, there are people who are shadows , they are shadows, we are nothing, we only know the surname, everyone fills this surname, a person who is next to the president with his own meaning, his own, you know, like a balloon, someone gives it, and it means that it is a balloon yarmak, and someone gives it , that means a strong manager, a serious person, a person who can really perform certain management functions, someone gives... another ball yermak and says that he is a favorite, he has a bad influence on zelenskyi, he protects there some corporate interests, and we we don't know who is ruling, we don't know anything about it, the ukrainian government is generally detached from society's knowledge of its essence, and so with every person, with everyone, we don't read interviews, we don't see the real level

of responsibility, ministers appear, disappear, they are also not public figures by and large, even in the armed forces of ukraine, we can only count on certain short public appearances of military leaders , here is the interview of general syrskyi, the first official interview of such a general in recent months zaluzhnoy, who for many ukrainians is a symbol of victory for the majority and so on, you have seen it once or twice and at a press conference, he was once at a press conference once once, that is, we saw him in real life, a person who says something , well, just a living person seen once means exists. a person who is an image, huh, and everyone is on it, yes, i don’t know, i just remembered , but to the military, it’s like normal, there are no questions, but we’re not, but you don’t have to make it up, there is, by the way, this is not an incorrect comparison, but i will try, there is a line vasylivna kostenko, a very non-public

person, you have seen at least once in your life , yes, i spent one time in my life... with lina vasylivna, i spoke with her once, no, i spoke on the phone many times, it's true, ugh, a lot of times, i have to say that lina vasylievna corresponds to this image that many people put in the image of lina kazenko, then there are poems, yes, yes, but you know that a person who is a living person, and poems , these are different images, absolutely, yes, eh, i know many poets who are absolutely no... corresponded to their literary image , but these poets were famous, they were there all the time , you could see them, they appeared there, lina vasilievna almost never appears, there is an image, but i really say, most people never didn't see it, huh, but they put in her image what they want to put in accordance with what they read, it's

an image, but it's an image in the culture, it's our right, you know, we create an image for ourselves, that's how we create images for ourselves , poets and writers, artists. we never saw what was in 19, just in 19 centuries, simply alina kostenko is such an image of our contemporaries, here she is, you can go somewhere to see her, but we don't see her, there are some people who see her, but the majority have never seen her and will never see her, that's how it is in politics has a different meaning , absolutely true, but these are very similar situations, yes, we do not know anything about these people, all the politicians who were there in ukraine until 2019 and managers, we knew what we were talking about, then we could sit and analyze it. now we don't even know the meaning of actions, here we are we are discussing some deputy there, who sometimes fights with the former holokomovych of the armed forces of ukraine, and sometimes with the right to meet with foreigners, and we do not

know whether she does it herself or is simply a tool for people from another department, relatively speaking, from the non-legislative power. this is an image, but along with it is her co-author on this law, such a well-known civil activist, yes, who has appeared on television many times, who has been on my air many times, she, i have talked to her a lot, she is an intelligent, sensitive person , which clearly understands what she does, i don't need an image, but what she does there, it doesn't correspond to what i know about her, that's why i try, that's why i have this knowledge. a real person has an image, the current image does not match what i know about a real person, whom i am a real person, i treat with great respect, how, how can i treat someone without respect, when i have... there's real information about a real person, flesh and blood, and it's a huge problem, how do i analyze it,

then i have to say, no, you know, i have to retrain as someone else, because this is some kind of madness, it is good, but i warned in 2019 that it is not professional administration when you vote for people who have never done anything in their life, they do not understand what public administration is , one way or another, even people who are in their circle, who can understand all this, they will. do not act in this logic, if you put a professional in this story, he will act in this logic, otherwise he will not be able to resist, well, how do you understand, well, how, well if you come, well, i don't know how to explain , well, if you come, well, you are there for kindergarten, let's say an adult, and they tell you that you will be in this group, you say to educate, no, sit down, you will be with these children to eat porridge, well, you eat, but what are you to do, otherwise you will be evicted, if it depends on your... career opportunities, and so people who are adults and fall into such a situation,

the younger children's group, they they are just trying to pretend: now i will eat everything, what a wonderful chocolate bar, i will eat it with fruit now with nuts, you see, it's still interesting what these people are really guided by, i.e. just their own career, someone can be guided by the fact that they want to save public administration, people have different intentions, people are different, okay, but that's how it is. yes , we don't have another system of government, and there won't be until the end of the war, after the end of the war, the voters have to decide whether it suits them or not, if the voter doesn't grow up, that's how it will be, uh, there's nothing like that, these are historical processes, mr. vitaly, i actually wanted to end with you can notice quite a lot... interesting things that are happening in ukrainian-polish relations, well, despite the blockade, despite the fact that they did not agree again, despite the fact that the missile

flew for 39 seconds and there was no reaction, but this is a separate discussion, all- after all, we have a statement from poland that it is actually doubling its contribution to the czech munitions initiative, on the one hand, well, i got a little lost in polish logic, on the one hand, i didn't get lost in polish logic, polish logic is very simple. there may be a war in europe, so poland has to help ukraine survive its confrontation with russia, because while ukraine is fighting russia, european countries can feel safe. ukraine is, as i have already said, such a night watch, relatively speaking, from the mountain of thrones. well, uh, and it should, if, excuse me, the patrol needs to have guns, to have shells, the wall is good there. everything, everything was everything, but it does not mean that it is necessary, that if they grow wheat there, then they should sell it to us, we

will grow it ourselves, that is the logic, it is simple, it means that polish governments understand this danger, since prime minister tusk speaks about it out loud, although the europeans do not like it, that we live in the pre-war era, and it is true, a war can really start in europe, there is no need to even doubt because such a possibility exists, and that european countries will not accept refugees, but send them somewhere further to... the south of europe, and this is a separate story for the future, it will be a very interesting story, of course, if we witness it, but this is a reality, and tusk is one of the first european politicians who says that this is the pre-war era, okay, so we need to help weapons, on the other hand there is polish society, which believes that agriculture should not be destroyed, it thinks so, any politician should be aware of this one way or another. of this society in order not to lose power, well, it turned out that the current government, it is in the same logic as the previous ones, which also did not want to lose power, realizing that it has

competitors on the right, and by the way, this government too understands that he has competitors on the right, it's just that the government had a confederation, rights and justice of this government, this is the logic we have regarding the missile, this is also a completely understandable logic, because the polish military assumes that if a missile flies into the territory of poland, into the territory of ukraine, it is not for poland itself. ... it wants to hit a target on the territory of ukraine, and if it is shot down on the territory of poland, then it can harm ordinary polish citizens. i don't think this logic is fair, but it is there. and i think that now, when they are discussing the issue that there should be joint control of anti-aircraft systems defense of poland and ukraine on the territory of ukraine and that these targets should be destroyed when they approach the polish border, that is, in the airspace of ukraine, but on the territory. country, but possibly the polish air defense system, this should also be a logical approach, and we should

also work with it, i think that such joint control is a good way out. well, after all, it looks symmetrical and fair, if a russian missile can fly over poland, why can't the polish air defense system work even over those territories that are not russian, but they are ukrainian, of course, but again, this must be the political will, the decision of the north atlantic alliance, because they will think, and how will russia react to this, if its missile is destroyed, its missile will be destroyed by the polish air defense system not in poland, uh, not in poland, because... there are no questions in poland, right? russia cannot say poland, why, why did you damage our wonderful rocket? well, it crossed the airspace of poland, but we see that the russians are becoming more and more more daring. the fact that the polish ambassador of the russian federation in warsaw serhii andriyev simply ignored the summons of the ministry of foreign affairs of poland, which never happens. diplomats usually go. whatever the relationship.

the russian ambassador to poland disappeared for several days. by the way, he appeared, i somehow can’t remember, i don’t know, i think that he is now , you know, even countries that are already in the state of declaring war and so on, the ambassador is leaving, it’s a terrible moment, as you understand, but out he goes and meets with the head of the ministry of foreign affairs in the country that he is declaring war on, so, by the way, the german ambassador in moscow, count shullenburg, ugh, arrived at the ministry of foreign affairs of the soviet union and declared war on the people's commissar of foreign affairs. this is generally accepted in diplomacy, even under such conditions, there are almost no such conditions here, the parties support each other diplomatically, but he behaves in such a terrible way, so the russians have already decided that they do not care about everything and everyone, and this also an important point, well, in your opinion, or not tusk will be able to effectively convince all his and european partners, until recently, recently he was in the united states,

can he be considered an advocate of this strategy, russia is real. danger can not be allowed to fall ukraine? i think that at least our central european neighbors should be more interested in this than anyone else. but we are seeing an old story, remember when poland and the baltic countries convinced their european partners for years that there was a threat from russia, and they said that it was paranoia. so. this point of view of the baltic countries and poland has always been perceived as paranoia, related to their previous negative historical experience, which has nothing to do with modernity, when you just need to trade peacefully, relatively speaking. and then it turned out that they were right, and their neighbors were not, and now we heard that the guy talked about the remark of the prime minister of spain, pedro sanchez, a very, by the way, a strong politician and a great friend of ukraine and a person who has an obvious desire to help us and sanchez said, well listen you don't need to talk about war, because it scares europeans, well, you don't need to talk about it, and it's absolutely obvious that the prime minister of a country that is very far away on the poronetsky peninsula, far from

the theater of war, well, he doesn't want his... compatriots lived in a state of some kind of danger, it is even more possible that they will not be in danger, but if we talk about allied relations in the european union, the north atlantic alliance, then there must be solidarity with those who are directly in the line of fire, and you , who are close to the war, and those who is far from war, and this, too, should have been the logic that we would draw, should draw as a conclusion from the history of the 20th century. mr. vitaly, thank you. to you for this analysis, it was the saturday political club, vitaly portnikov, our guests, thanks to everyone who made it possible to record this program, and we encourage you to join the saturday political club already next week, get out of

espresso. greetings to everyone from espresso, i'm annevamelnik and the news team will tell you about the main events of this hour. odesa is out of power again. after restoration of light , the high-voltage substation was turned off by accident, temporarily without electricity. residents of khadzhibey and kyiv districts of the city, as well as odesa region and part of the odesa district of the region. due to the lack of electricity , the water supply was stopped there. repair works are ongoing, where possible, energy workers will revive critical infrastructure objects and houses, noted vdtek. let me remind you that after the night attack , 170,000 homes remained without electricity. the situation was stabilized. however,