political expert oleksiy holobutsky, ihor reiterovych and volodymyr fesenko, stay with us. sweden raised its flag at nato headquarters. vladimir putin says: he will send his troops to the border with finland. both countries joined the alliance because of the war in ukraine and are already participating in nato's largest military exercises. but what exactly are they preparing for? we will talk about this for the next 15 minutes live from london in the studio of jafer umerov. sweden, the newest member of nato, raised its flag at the headquarters of the alliance in brussels. the lifting ceremony at the beginning of the week, you can now see it on the screen. jen

stoltenberg, nato secretary general, said that with sweden's membership, the alliance will become stronger and safer. by the way, volodymyr zelenskyi also welcomed sweden's membership and said that another country in europe has become more protected from russian evil. the country applied in may 22 , along with finland, after russia's full-scale war against ukraine. and sweden and finland officially became members of nato. remember, one of the reasons... what vladimir putin explained the full-scale invasion of ukraine by its possible accession to nato, that is, the alliance approaching the borders of russia, but precisely because of the beginning of the great war in the 22nd year, this border increased by another 1,300 km, precisely because of the accession of finland to the alliance, as can be seen on this map. and here is the statement made by the prime minister of finland, peteri orpo, about the russian threat in europe. russia is obviously

preparing for a long conflict with the west and represents a constant military threat to europe. if we, as a united europe, do not able to respond adequately to this challenge, the coming years will be fraught with danger and threats of attack. imagine what will happen next if russia achieves its goal. i'm saying that every euro spent today on ukraine, at what cost, compared to the opportunity cost if russia wins. meanwhile, russian president vladimir putin called finland's entry into the alliance, i quote: a ridiculous step and said that russia had reached the finnish border with its troops. we generally had a perfect relationship, just perfect, we didn't have one.

territorial, i'm not talking about other claims to each other, let alone industry, we didn't even have troops, we removed troops from the russian-finnish border, why did they do it? well, in my opinion, for purely political reasons , i really wanted to be members of this western club under some umbrella, why do they need it, i frankly do not understand, it is an absolutely senseless step from the point of view of ensuring their own... national interests, but it's up to them to decide, they decided so, we didn't have troops there, now there will be, there were no defeat systems, now they will appear, and now the accession of sweden and finland to nato means an additional 3,000 active and reserve troops, and this is the largest expansion of the alliance since the 90s, by the way, the day before poland celebrated a quarter of a century in the alliance , how should russia's neighbors...

react to putin's threats to deploy troops near the border, this is how the minister of foreign affairs of latvia, kiršianis karinč, reacted to this threat on the bbc. since two years ago, russia started this large-scale war against ukraine, putin achieved two things: first, he reinvigorated nato and strengthened the west, and second, he convinced the finns and swedes that their countries were not enough either. time to join nato, so he actually strengthened our alliance as a direct result of his war of aggression in ukraine. might have strengthened the alliance, but what about the risk of escalation now that their troops are on that border? i don't think we should be concerned about the risk of escalation. russia has been waging a full-scale war in europe for two years. the war is already upon us. but not against nato. against

nato will not affect nato under one very simple and clear condition: that we are strong, that we unite, that we invest in our defense, and we are very transparent and... we clearly show that we are ready to defend each other, and we have opportunities you can stop russia by force. it is the only language they understand. and with the accession of finland to nato, nato became much stronger. and what about the impact, for example , of supplies to ukraine on that confidence, because any delay in supplies has just been another attempt by the us to provide a new package of military aid worth 300 million dollars, but it is not 60 million. in your opinion, how harmful are these delays for ukraine? every day of delay, unfortunately, takes the lives of ukrainian citizens. this is the price of our procrastination. the reason for the current delay in the

us presidential election. and for the european part of nato, it was a kind of reminder that it is necessary to invest in its own defense. many of us. more than 2% invests in nato. latvia will soon approach 3%. we plan to purchase new weapons systems. they are enough dear, but we have to do it. if we all did this, dependence on us military support in europe would decrease. we all together have enough funds, if we all invested, we would not have problems, just like ukraine. so what? said that ukraine is now closer to membership than ever, which he said also demonstrates a major strategic mistake by putin, whose goal was to prevent ukraine from moving toward nato. stoltenberg assured that ukraine will become

an ally, but when and exactly we will talk about this with the expert of the center for defense strategies oleksandr khara. greetings, alexander. so ukraine, she applied for the fastest. joining nato as early as september 22, but how fast can this process be, under what conditions, and in general, is it possible for ukraine to join nato during the war? well , it seems to me that this is an option without alternative, as for ukraine, since we cannot ensure our security in the future from the largest nuclear power in the world, but i also think that our partners, for now , partners, not allies in europe, they they understand... because ukraine already exists the guarantor, so to speak, of stability in europe and should be part of the european security architecture in the future. of course, ukraine's accession to nato depends on many factors. there are objective technical factors, this is our readiness, interoperability,

democratic civilian control over the security and defense sector, that is, actually reforming, but there is also a question of political will, because, for example, there are still several european countries, european... in nato, which do not quite meet nato standards, and block cooperation, well, i say first of all about viktor orbán's hungary, which plays the role of the trojan horse of the russian federation and china in the european union and nato. therefore, the issue of political will is also present, and of course, if there is political will, if there is an understanding that russia can be stopped by helping ukraine, including membership, then of course it could be even before... the war, but rather after all this will take place at the end of the war, and before that end we would like to receive the maximum help so that we can liberate all the territories so that the russian the federation did not win a single centimeter of ukrainian land, and this will be a win not only for ukraine, but for europeans and free

nations all over the world, because putin is being watched by xi jinping, kim chin-un and other dictators who look into the territories or interests of other states, so i'm optimistic about it. sense and we see europe is consolidating against the background of what is happening in washington, that speaker mac johnson and the future, maybe the future president of the united states, donald trump , are blocking aid to ukraine, but i hope that a week or a half and this blockage will be bypassed in the house of representatives by alternative bills and, above all , by the so-called discharge petition, that is, when it will be possible to put the aid project to a vote, i am sure that there will be a sufficient number of republicans who will vote together with the democrats for assistance to ukraine for this fiscal year. you mentioned the broader reasons for the accession of some countries, one of the main reasons for the accession of finland and sweden to nato is the war in ukraine, how big

is the threat from russia to nato? well, first and the most important thing is that the accession of sweden and finland to nato is a strategic defeat of the russian federation in... that region, because these are very powerful, especially finland, an extremely powerful country in the military sense, and it would be able to withstand an attack by the russian federation, but we understand , that now after two years... of war, when ukraine destroyed the largest part of the aggressive potential of the russian federation, russia is unlikely to dare to start such a large-scale war, which is precisely why the germans say that russia will need 5-6 years after the end of the war restore the potential to carry out an attack on nato, and the baltic countries say that it is less time, estonia says two years, poland says - 3 years, but they understand that this is absolutely completely virgin, there are also... other options, well, for example , in the 16th year rends corporation conducted games and showed that it would

take 48 hours for russia to seize one of the baltic states and then, of course, demand something from the united states, from its nato allies. therefore, such an option is possible that the russian federation implements either a hybrid one in a way or directly aggressive, seizes part of the territory, threatens his interview with nuclear weapons... he recently threatened nuclear territory again. thank you oleksandr, unfortunately we don't have enough time to talk about this topic, it was oleksandr khara, an expert at the center for defense strategies, in touch with us. thank you. so with the accession to nato, both sweden and finland abandoned their neutrality, a position they have long maintained and are participating in nato's largest military exercises since the cold war. all this in the background warnings of a new law... for europe from russia, the bbc correspondent jonathon beale joined these maneuvers, the first for

the scandinavian countries as nato members. nato says that they are a bulwark of peace. but they are preparing for war. this is just part of their large-scale military exercises taking place across europe. and the alliance's newest members, sweden and finland, have no doubt why. joined, to be against russia, why take such a risk if you can join nato? i personally now feel much safer, because from now on we have allies according to legend, they came to defend northern norway after an invasion. the enemy is not called russia, but simply a close neighbor. the purpose of these exercises is to demonstrate how nato will come to the aid of an ally under attack. this is the main principle of the alliance: attacking one. is seen as an attack on everyone, but how likely is it? no one says that the threat

is inevitable, russia is busy with its war in ukraine, but moscow's aggression itself is really disturbing. the question is not whether the russians will strengthen, the question is when will happen and you are sure that russia is a threat. i am sure that russia is a threat. yes, and in the fact that we, as an allied country , need to become even stronger in... the next 5-10 years. those who live nearby are aware of the greatest threat. currently, countries are increasing defense spending, but they are also morally preparing for war. both finland and norway share a border with russia, and they have already fortified it with an army of citizens. teachers, nurses and tesla in ordinary. those, part-time soldiers, they are members of the norwegian

home guard, but it is not the army veterans, most of them young and ready to fight. it is known that during the second world war, this region was burned to the ground, so my grandparents all had to flee, and it is my choice to stay here to fight and do what i trained for. now i check the press more than i used to, just to know what is going on, especially with russia, for these scandinavian allies, strength is now in numbers, and for russia, the increased presence of nato on its borders has become an epic miscalculation. and that's all for today, happily.

congratulations, friends, on the air of the espresso tv channel, the second part. on the verdict program , my name is serhiy rudenko, today in the program we are ready for a serious conversation, putin rushes to the negotiation table with the leaders of the west, for which security guarantees the kremlin dictator is begging, in anticipation of a new wave of mobilization, the development of the draft law in the parliament is delayed, how realistic is

the replacement 330,000 soldiers at the front, information. special operation perun. intelligence warns of activation of enemy agents. are russian ipsos capable of destabilization? ukraine. we work live, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, and we conduct surveys on youtube and on tv at the same time. today, friends, we are asking you about whether russian information and psychological special operations are capable of destabilizing the situation in ukraine. today, the main divorce office. the ministry of defense of ukraine reported that russian propagandists are preparing a special operation called perun to destabilize the political situation in ukraine and the countries of the west, and this special operation is in an active phase, therefore we ask you, are the russian police capable of destabilizing the situation in ukraine? yes, no , everything is quite simple on youtube, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone and

vote if you think the russians are capable of shaking things up in ukraine through ipso 08'. 2011-381 no 0800-211-382. all calls to these numbers are free, vote at the end of the program and we will sum up the results of this vote. i would like to introduce today's guests, they are oleksiy holobutsky, political scientist, political technologist, deputy director of the modeling agency situations mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. congratulations. ihor reiterovych, political scientist, head of political and legal programs of the ukrainian center for social development, mr. ihor. congratulations, thank you for joining the broadcast, congratulations, and volodymyr fesenko, political scientist, chairman of the board of the center for applied political research penta, mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, good evening, well, since we ask our viewers and tv viewers about the russian epso, can the russian epso shake up the situation and to destabilize the situation in ukraine, this is in

the context of the statements of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine, i will also ask you whether now... russia can create conditions in order to shake up and destabilize the situation in ukraine. mr. oleksiy, please. are we still going to talk about this topic? yes, i suggest because i want to expand, so to speak, answer, then pass on to colleagues. mr. igor, well, i think that globally they can hardly do it, pointwise, well , they can have certain effects, unfortunately, in us remains, remains there are anonymous, for example, telegram channels, which are read by a large part of the citizens of ukraine, and they can throw some theses through these resources, but they will not be able to somehow influence there at all, for example, the political situation, by the way, for another very banal reason , we don't have a public policy as such, well, in this, you know, general understanding of this word today, so there will be attempts,

they will try to do it, but i think that the way they want it, they definitely it will not succeed, especially since we... have a certain understanding and those bodies that are engaged in countering this disinformation, and in principle, well, society is also sufficiently prepared , not all, but the vast majority of citizens, they have learned, well, how at least for two years of a large-scale war to filter some frank russian ipso, and not to listen to what they will throw in here through various channels of influence. thank you, mr. volodymyr, i agree with my colleague to play on certain topics, use them in one's interests, relax a little. or, let's say, to provoke conflicts, heated , conflictual discussions on certain topics, yes, it is possible, they, and by the way, they are now using exactly such tactics, they are taking topics that are already being discussed in ukraine, by the way, not only in ukraine , but in poland they use the topic of the conflict on the border, the conflict of economic interests between ukraine

and poland in agrarian issues, and they continue to incite and shake things up. are scandalizing, giving, let's say, aggressiveness in this conflict, but they are trying to act in a similar way in ukraine, but in principle, to a significant extent, i think that they will not succeed, well, a simple example, since there were many conversations there last year and now about maidan three, the so-called, it is impossible to artificially organize the maidan, especially from the outside, yes, but to play along.. thank you, mr. volodymyr, we will talk about this a little later, about this special operation, which the main intelligence agency told about today. defense of ukraine, i propose to start our conversation with putin's statements that russia should receive guarantees from the west and that he is not

against negotiations on the future of ukraine, although it is probably correct to call it about the future of putin himself and the guarantees for putin himself, because we are not talking about guarantees there, which must be provided by the russians. federation, which completely destroyed the entire international legal framework and, in general, all agreements went awry. mr. oleksiy, who and how does putin want to use in order to get these guarantees, and in general, is there any point in saying that after what putin has done in ukraine, that someone will guarantee him something, or sit down at the table negotiations and bargaining. well, you have to to understand that i do not know. putin himself probably does not believe that any guarantees are possible in the modern world, in principle, yes, well, what guarantees can the west give?

the only guarantee of his safety and staying in office until the end is the fact that russia has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, well at least yes, yes, this is what they say, all other international agreements that existed, they are completely destroyed, they are gone, we can talk, by the way, it's about... also, all this talk about security guarantees that we're making that don't sound like even in the documents themselves, as a security guarantee, and they are the same, well, we have to understand that all this will be checked empirically, that is, theoretically, it all looks very, well, relatively beautiful, yes, but we can understand this only when, well , for example, russia will collide with... with some nato country or with some other country, yes, then we will understand that the guarantees to us have been destroyed since the 14th year, absolutely, and thus destroyed in general between the issues

of international security, so i i think it's the neglect of the problem, ah, putin wants to enter into a certain process that can last for years, so that it is enough for him , firstly, to completely cement his country and for it to be in... his personal were a guarantee that he would leave the kremlin only with his feet forward, well, therefore, the direction of the mausoleum, probably, yes, you understand, today he, today he spoke about nuclear weapons, nuclear weapons, and i re-listened, re-read several times, i could not understand about the intervention of words, words, yes, that is, he will consider the presence of foreign troops, well, specifically he was talking about american troops in ukraine, as an intervention... moreover, the intervention is not in ukraine, but the intervention against russia, you understand that he is expanding the zone, well, in principle, he

demanded all this from the end of the 21st year, so to get a zone of influence in the form of course of ukraine , there is no doubt about it, but it is also desirable for eastern europe, that is, to return to the kind of confrontation that was in the soviet union from the west, this is his dream, he is all so to speak... for this, his hope is to do - it is that the isolanian positions that receive popularity in the united states, in europe , yes, they will finally win there within this year and next year, yes, and then it's just, they'll enter into an influence-sharing agreement between themselves, and on that, well, in principle, and then the systems, they will be cemented, there will be a west, there will be russia with its sphere of influence, china will also be there. so to speak, according to his problems, and putin, well, i think that for 20-30 years he, so to speak, believes that he guarantees his security. well, but you

correctly mentioned these demands of putin, rather, about putin's blackmail in december 21st, when he demanded to return there to almost super-influence as of 1997, when there was still no expansion of nato to the east, but even... despite the fact that this blackmail in principle was not was perceived by any side, in which he did not send these diplomatic dispatches, meaning washington and the countries of the north atlantic alliance, well, nato, and on the contrary, the situation worsened for putin, no one perceives that someone, well, you understand, i understand, just worsened in what sense, he stopped the war came in well, it is clear that these demands of putin were completely out of hand from the very beginning, regarding the fact that a missile from kharkiv reaches moscow in a certain time, and yes... so

they arrive faster from finland, now from sweden, well, of course, that these are all just words , so to speak, he, let's understand it this way, i understand it this way at least, that his plan, when he seizes one way or another, will completely destroy ukrainian statehood in various ways, then this question will be, so to speak speak, stand already, you understand, we are now let's talk about the situation. which is constantly in flux, if you don't remember, if you remember , yes, thank god, i did not take part in it, but let's remember the conversations we had with experts, politicians and so on a year ago, at the end of the year we had some there to drink coffee in the crimea and, two years ago, they were generally talking about a parade in moscow and so on, well, the situation is a little different, and he also analyzes and sees this, and all these problems with the supply of weapons from europe and

america. with money and so on, he thinks it's playing on him, i'm not saying it's playing on him, but it seems to me that he believes that this is playing against him, and in the end his task is to destroy the statehood of ukraine in one way or another, when he goes to the borders with poland, in different ways, i do not say that this directly will be the russian army , yes, maybe it will be a puppet state called ukraine, but under the complete control of russia, maybe this plan of his still remains, and then... then, then it will be possible to talk about whether nato is even ready to face this problem, to somehow solve it. thank you, mr. oleksiy, sir igor, to whom and to whom is this proposal to form security guarantees for russia on washington? well, first of all, it is the united states, of course, because putin believes that it is the united states, they have subjectivity, and accordingly,

certain victories can be won with them. in his understanding to this day, the european union and even more so ukraine are not such entities, although he is ready to talk with individual european countries, he is ready to talk with individual european leaders there, but he believes that they are still in you know, such a position and a somewhat subordinate porin in relation to washington, so the main addressee was, of course, the united states of america, and it seems to me that he tried in this interview, it is quite strange and... in general, there are questions here, why he so suddenly decided to talk once again with his propagandist, why was he doing this, well , there are many different reasons, interesting enough, but it was even, you know, not so much in the direction of the current american government, as i thought, he just lays opportunities for some kind of further communication with the american elites in general, what do you see, here i am, i have such proposals, we are ready to consider these proposals, then for some reason he went to some

great length. sensation about carrots, yes, they are offering some carrots to russia, but they want to have some reinforced concrete guarantees, by the way, he did not name these guarantees, this also leaves some room for maneuver, because, in his understanding, such a guarantee, for example , there may not be ukraine's entry into nato, or there may be an eternal neutral status there of ukraine, they raise these issues from time to time, maybe he wants to return to them to some extent, but in general it seemed that he needed this conversation. was, well, to a greater extent on the eve of the elections, plus as a certain means of mobilizing the electorate somewhere, hence the mention of nuclear weapons, hence the mention that we are ready to sit down at the transition table in principle, but we want some of our demands were provided, were guaranteed, and we were promised that no one would violate them there will be, but by the way, it was very interesting with nuclear weapons, because it seemed that he

even made excuses to some extent and... said that we are never going there and no, we were not going to use them, and we are not going to , well, if they do not attack our sovereign territory there and so on, he said that this is in our plans, but it seems that he may have recently received another message through some closed diplomatic channel, either from delhi or there from beijing, maybe from two capitals at once, in that sense, that he should stop this rhetoric that they have been pumping out for the last couple of weeks before... that somewhere among their propagandists about the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons there again and so on, a message arrived that this rhetoric should be stopped , as it is unacceptable. in the 23rd year, india and china publicly made a statement that to think, forget about the use of tactical nuclear weapons there, any nuclear weapons at all, it will be a disaster and so on, here it is similar to everything that was transferred some kind of greeting is more like that, you know, in such a veiled version, well, putin is from...

especially through an interview he made it clear.