[000:00:00;00] possibilities and delivery of the same cotton, all the mines of the beloved are there. okay, well, what we talked about. thanks to roman svitan, a military expert, a colonel of the armed forces of ukraine in the reserve, a military pilot, instructors, and pavlo, a national military expert and volunteer who explained to us that there are grounds for restrained optimism. the main thing is that this optimism it was premature, we should start smiling in the second half of march, not so long , a year left, we waited a couple of weeks, we can wait, now they will call me vitaly kulyk , director of the center for the study of problems of civil society, we will talk about china

, and first of all i can even think about whether civil society in china is interesting. by the way, the question is more philosophical because china has started to play some kind of game and we are joining mr. vitaly kulyk, director of the center for researching civil society problems a-a p vitaliy good health, thank you, it's time for us, you 're a simple and difficult question about china's 12 points , all zinkina, does china really want to play or does it want to show a desire to play and just if join this circle of countries that are now deciding the fate of the world. i may have said it defiantly, but it seems to me that this is what the chinese are really doing, or is he just throwing the ball and waiting to see what will happen , but he has already thrown the ball and if

any negotiations begin, he is already there if he participates, if there is one superpower, not only america, but also the chinese superpower. in the sense of the official pickin, that is, what do you say about these 12 points, in my opinion, this is not a plan, it is , by and large, a vision of the vision of the war in ukraine, which is happening in ukraine from the side in china, these are by no means action plans that can be chosen and implemented . there are no such points that would arouse our unconditional support, and the only point that satisfies us and that we are ready to talk about is the point about the non-use of nuclear weapons . weapons, but it is already clear, yes. has china clearly indicated that the use of weapons of mass effect, in particular, nuclear weapons, during this war is impossible and unacceptable? that is good

. thank you for this, but all the other points cause there are many questions in ukraine and they are unacceptable as such to be taken up and on which to discuss, because for each of these 12 points there is a certain case of obligations if we enter into a substantive dialogue on this plan we undertake certain obligations, in particular , the cessation of shooting would willingness to abandon the sanctions mechanism, which is also written in these so-called 12 points from china. therefore, this is china's vision of how relations should be built , negotiation processes should be built, but nothing has anything to do with practical implementation possible negotiation process, on the other hand, what is the target audience, the target audience of these twelve points is not even ukraine and not the countries of the west, and even in russia , the target audience of this document are countries

that hesitated even before this in choosing a side in the assessment of the war in ukraine. this is a point of positioning for china among the countries of latin america, south asia, africa, those countries that tried to balance and keep distance from the parties to the conflict in ukraine, and it is precisely on them that china focuses, if only to play a leading role there, i.e. to become the rallying point around which these countries that stand for neutrality and equidistantness should unite with the chinese side of such officials, in principle, i understand that china for the chinese in china has no interests other than

their own interests, all these conversations that you can negotiate with them make me smile a lot. and what do you think, and in principle china can be reoriented china will listen to arguments does china- does china have some fixed vision fixed point of view and says we will never support ukraine we will always compete with rivne as a big country united states we will always support russia in words or maybe in reality we will also convey something there a couple of bombs or a couple of projectiles, i.e. no matter how much mr. zelensky says, how much mr. kuleba will say, no matter how much mr. biden or blinken says

, it is impossible to influence china. is this not true or it is possible to influence china historical sometimes succeeds sometimes so influence what actually changes the geopolitical schedule in the world it was possible once kissing already, for example , influenced china influenced when it is necessary to sit down sit in a suitcase and jump out of a suitcase in china secret absolutely then it is that is, you offer kulebi to sit in a suitcase and come incognito to china and there p- reconfigure the chinese leadership no, i'm just saying that never say never from china china there are certain uh points that you can click on with which you can understand each other and achieve a certain positive result, history shows that it can be done, but in my opinion, this is not a pro-ukrainian issue, not in a situation with a war with a war in ukraine, we can talk about changing china's approach to this story. china

will remember the west as its opponent, and it is building its own to become a gamer in a situation where there is a global south that he actually wants to lead and there is a global west that is leading against this south er-er to some extent the competition is not er-er balanced as they believe in certain that's actually that 's all and ukraine the situation in ukraine as well is an attempt to weaken the west and the russian federation in the interests of china. for china, it is important that the war continues as long as possible in a low-intensity format. in this way , the west is bleeding, russia is bleeding and is being pushed to favorable negotiating positions for china. ukraine is simply a factor here , but it was allowed from my point of view. such a simple systemic error that is now being discussed by mr. kuleba, the ukrainian minister of foreign affairs, just as you mentioned about

the sanctions policy, and among these points are these unilateral sanctions must be removed, this is bad. this is bad. this is bad, but i was very surprised because i understand that the chinese ministry of foreign affairs is very meticulous in russian . sanctions - sanctions started on the part of russia against ukraine many years ago , and when someone says that sanctions must be stopped , let's remember about ukrainian ones, i don't know there milk, i don't know there, cream, georgian butter georgian wine, borjomi wine, moldavian sprats, riga sprats, that is, latvian ones, and yes, that is, none other than russia

started this entire line of sanctions against all its neighbors almost without exception. to mr. xi jinping's friend putin, what do you say about this oversight? by sanctions, they mean sanctions against themselves because china is under sanctions in terms of observing human rights and the state of the mountain. china is under sanctions. against obtaining human rights and the situation in hong kong, china is in investigations of economic fair competition , china is on selection lists for bypassing sanctions for supporting north korea , it feels what the sanctions mechanisms are, and it believes that sanctions are a weapon of the west against the collective cock, in particular china, because it would is on the chinese economy, accordingly, they want to remove it in general consistently, and not only in the document called 12 points of the ukrainian plan, they talk about the lifting

of sanctions as a tool of political influence they talk about it and in the global security initiative they voiced it with a cymbal. cannot be a continuation of the global policy that this is an unfair tool of influence on the opponent , that is why they simply migrated from the official ideological rhetoric of beijing, which was previously migrated to the so-called 12-point plan regarding ukraine, mr. vitaly a please tell me what you think about these threats to washington, official, that we are categorically against assistance to the russian federation from the side of beijing, official, we will take measures if we have already touched on

sanctions, this threat of sanctions from the united states in the first place well, europe can start, although there is no certainty here, they can somehow suspend or reduce these contacts, e.e., military contacts , military-technical contacts, contacts between official moscow and official proxies, if china were to generate a valuable mechanism, if it did not react at all to such threats. so when negotiations were conducted on the account and china would continue to provide not only dual-purpose goods, directly ammunition, missiles or something more serious, such as drones, it does not do this, moreover , as soon as information appears about the investigation into the introduction of countermeasures of sanctions, china suspends contacts , for example, on the transfer of chips to russia that can be used in missile technology, the chinese flips through its e-e production chain

to enterprises that can manufacture combat firewood china stops the negotiation process on sakhalin 2 china stops the issue of purchasing new volumes of oil and gas china does not transfer large-diameter pipes to russia, that is , all these are parts of the selection mechanisms introduced in relation to russia china does not impose excessive burden on its companies by the sanctions that are introduced measures against russia, that is why china considered sanctions against china to be painful. therefore, he reacts when the west says that he should not go to russia, they do not supply certain goods to russia, the chinese are trying not to go directly to russia collision and it is avoided in every possible way. therefore, so far the political dividends are not as obvious as the economic losses, that is why china is trying to get into the new sanctions lists. congratulations, but from your words, from my

observations, they may not be so accurate and i am not looking so closely, but i have the impression that in china does not have a coherent policy, it simply does not exist, one from your last phrase , that is, yes, we generally trade with oil , there is something with gas. by the way, but huawei is leaving russia, and a huge number of large enterprises of large chinese consortia left, but they didn’t leave like that, and how can mcdonald’s leave with a shout. we left very quietly without telling anyone, because what i know is that they simply disappear in moscow literally, the hired russians come at nine in the morning, as they always do, and a year ago, and two

and three and five, none of the chinese are there for work, they got together overnight, packed their suitcases, got on a plane and flew there to beijing somewhere that is, we see several political systems one at a time. we support russia. i mean the chinese in a different way . there is no need for him to be over nato because there is a war in ukraine for the fifth time, we still come to munich , take part in the conference, came up with 12 points, talk about the immutability of ukrainian borders, that is, there is no coherent policy, this is not the policy of any serious country who says this i have red lines. i don’t do red lines otherwise. it’s not about china. if it’s china’s interests, there are red lines

. there are the issues of taiwan. there are issues of protecting economic sovereignty. russia has no alliance obligations , it's more like china avoids all kinds of talk about allied relations, the only thing russia is offered is to be a fellow traveler, it's to be a territory on which some attention is directed, nothing more , it's not an allied strategic relationship while it is beneficial for us to support the low-intensity conflict situation while it is beneficial for us, we trade in certain positions from russia as soon as the sanctions mechanisms become a threat, we close down, but start trading in the other side where there is no sanctions attention of the west, it gives us some more loopholes , if not we then we create diplomatic precedents, we talk about strengthening our role

as a mediator, paying attention to this , taking away such moments of bread, so i , as i, as for me, here we have a consistent policy, a holistic policy of china, this is not the policy of a friend of a partner of a strategic ally to russia and this is the policy of a large country to a satellite country that is under the influence of no more than thanks and confirms it’s just who is interested in the theoretical developments of the chinese such santengs of chinese that is such intellectual centers three no i don’t remember two i remember one thing, that is , china's policy towards russia is based on three nos and one of the nos that i remember. these are no alliances, which completely contradicts putin's version

. what kind of strategic alliance do we have? against this, there are no alliances. this is important. i think it is important. thank you to vitaliy kulik, who spent 15 minutes with us, or even 16 minutes. he found time for us on saturday . i hope we will see each other more than once on the air, and maybe in person. thank you. and we moved. we we will now do the opposite. what is mr. lukashenko doing now or will he do in the near future? minsk region, we don't know where oleksandra is now, the founder of the initiative of the belarusian security forces against lukashenko. good health, mr. oleksandrovych, but you

are somewhere, not in beijing, as i understand it, somewhere maybe somewhere closer to eastern europe, well, look, the question is important to me as well it seems very important and you know about it, maybe you made it public or for your help and already now everyone knows this plan with several points regarding the incorporation of belarus into russia and the transformation of belarusians absolutely, well, not even a satellite and a part of russia, it is not fast in the 24th year , the first step and 26th, the second step. and in the 30s, it is actually already belarus.

lukashenko himself, turning himself from the president , albeit a pretend president, into a governor who is appointed by the president of the russian federation. lukashenko does not want to be a governor and he wants to be a king. presidents of god can have a skill, so the line is the governor oleg he is left with nothing else and he is being assigned this role, and putin, whose young cap has already been marked, gave the belarusian territory to russia. the belarusian army is the first sloop under the russian army's ceramics, that's why he has nothing left, how do they do what i will tell him when putin says, be the governor he will be the governor, that's why glezyashina's plan is... i don't think that ion will be here not until the 30th year, as i think they 're sold on the corner, they won't be here

because... we're working because the belarusians didn't submit and didn't become russians and in general when belarusians find out what is actually happening in russia, they don't want to go there, maybe a part of belarusians who don't know it will follow the same path that lukashenko putin will set, but more often colleagues from the internet and people will lead to russia is the empire of evil, and you can call it that, and no one wants to get there . finally, the plan comes to life and you can watch the clips. there are already some points that are coming to an end .

they said and what, uh, in the snow 22 years ago, the russian defense minister came to minsk, the puck came to minsk, and um at the marshulishche airfield, the so-called defense minister of belarus signed secret documents eight, these documents, this is exactly uh, it meant additional agreements and the creation of a joint groups of russian belarusian troops, ah, i agree with which e-e the number of russian troops in belarus is not limited by anything, and the time is also not limited. belarus has already been handed over to the russian occupation, and the army went first to the russians, because there is a warning of a joint headquarters, but we believe that when there will be a joint headquarters of the russians and belarusians, then who will lead it, then of course the russians will lead, that is, the actual all riddles

will be given by the russians and the time of the tu-tulka well, as a matter of time, the collegium will not give the permanent border and wax ukraine for gas, for example, here are 100 and 1,000 of cultural spheres of economic, so it is the same, it means the absorption of belarus in russia, we already have russification, well, not only with the arrival of lukashenka , even in the 30s, that’s when it was created in the ussr at the beginning of the smart belarusian leaders, they rushed the forest council of the cultural revival of belarus, but that’s why in the 30s they were all shootings, sir oleksandr, the government is a very important question, you know, especially for political figures - it is very sweet, it is so sweet, it is like that, it is sugar, it is honey, the government

, and i sit and think about the belarusian elites. the minister is sitting, the general who can use this power, he decides with one bell. he solves some question, hello, let's do it, let's do it. no money, that power . so, if it's the will of the government, i won't go, well, i won't become stronger than the will of the government. and now each of them must understand and will already understand i am convinced that now it is necessary not just allo , do it like this, but first alyona skla. and maybe we will do it like that, and only later when moscow can tell its subordinates to do it like this. i simply cannot understand the logic, and the belarusian elites are

incorporation into russia loses direct power, this is what they live for, they live with you in order to have this power and rule , and here they will rule one way or another through moscow. i have a hard time imagining the political behavior of such elites. in fact, we don't have any elites. generals are not elites . these are the winches of the system and a totalitarian one was created by lukashenko. to think. maybe we don't need lukashenko , let's do something like that. will have already been arrested. and here in the prison , radom stekhanovskyi and other oppositionists

are just shoes. they often say that in the belarusian elites, they can raise super-lukashenkas , there is no rebellion, that is, we do not keep silent for years. we do not have a system. this is how lukashenko was created. he came to power in the 90s and he destroyed all the elites. there are still old suprasovniks who worked in the 90s . they say that there were still elites, for example . it was funny, i didn't laugh, we weren't afraid of this. and this one is there. god forbid you don't do that and you'll say there, i'm not only doing orders, everything has changed , people are no longer elites. the elites don't have everything from the totalitarian system run by lukashenko. i was born then, what do you expect? panazarov, what are they counting on for european forces? and for belarusian ones? i even said forces if there are no such attitudes in the elites, if

the whole world knows what lukashevska is doing with postav, it 's us like in the 20th year. yes, it's simple. you can shoot then where you can, where it can come from . belarus is a new, independent, democratic country, where will it grow from? and we hope only for the belarusian people , for ordinary people, and also for military personnel from the special services of the middle and lower ranks, only for them, who can still think independently, and something is not necessary. этого житья everything is only on their elite and we

are a skill. works, but simply the understanding that without weapons, any uprising, any attempt to get rid of lukashenka is impossible. if the belarusians continue to say that we in white socks stand on the benches, and sometimes we are intellectuals , european intellectuals against european intellectuals, there are bullets, there are kgb, there are there is an army russian troops are now in belarus, and only by scaring the kgb with shots from their side can you force them to think that i too can die. now, i think no one from the kgb in belarus thought that he saw people in front of him who did not shoot. so i can easily shoot and kill and everything will be fine. so, flowers, balls, er, socks, white for a while in the 20th year, which means that when the joint transition cabinet

of the tikhonov uzhnivna was created in the 22nd year , belarusian politicians spoke on the first panel, and that's when i and them said that no one lukashenko does not see anything separate from the insurrection and the forceful method of irradiation. there is no other weapon in belarus , and here we are working on the ghetto, and we do not think that someone will come to the negotiations with us. you have friends in ukraine who have a lot of experience with weapons. i am now in lviv. bandera was in lviv . in general, there is a lot of experience here in the 43rd year of fighting against the germans and against the reds and against everyone in the world, so this must be understood

. and how about you see well, let me be so relevant the question is why lukashenko is going to beijing , what, what, what does he want , all the seats are free. so, if you remember, for example, the rail war that we conducted at the beginning of the second phase, it means russia's war against ukraine, and it was in february, so it means that there were backs on technicians and who were just carrying the same er, it means chinese goods in the eurolink of belarus to the country through which we transit is very important for the chinese. that's when we had information that china was proud and lukashenko began to make claims that you have it is being fought because you do not deliver according to our schedules, and this is the first thing - that uh, poland closed several border

crossings in anticipation of the fact that angers was sentenced to imprisonment in belarus, and that is why poland issued an ultimatum if you don't release him, we will close all the crossings , and here they have already closed two crossings, in my opinion , and they have stopped, and the supply of chinese goods to the european union has stopped, something from the chinese is very important, this is strategically important to us есть they also suggested earlier, at that time, we need to do chinese with chinese trains. that's why lukashynka was excluded from china. thank you very much, olexandra, now the founder of the initiative of the belarusian security forces against lukashenka was in touch with us. my part of the program is coming to an end , now irina koval will be there. will tell about the latest news. and after that, journalist mykola