on but we did sell them such product driven by agreed in the 2000 storage of bank engaged in various high risk business practice to search the bank was basically involved in every shady scandal in the banking sector worldwide. raise for ever higher process. if you made money, there was pressure to make more money and then the minds of the german institution, the georgia bank story starts may 2nd on d w. that has to flow to do you do the i'd say the tenant she survived. oh sure, it's thanks to music. he was the nazis favorite conductor. he is martin, the degenerates to musicians under the swastika,

a documentary about this sounds of power, inspiring story about survival of the home and you go get the tennis. i was the only one. usually in nazi germany, watch now on youtube dw documentary, the if you've ever worked in an office, you know, it's often hard to concentrate and then there all the endless meetings to somebody mentioned the paperless office. and if you want a decision, you'll have to wait for

a bigger meeting to raise your spirits to go to town halls and hear from motivational speakers. can you remember the time when you had one goal? but now you have to do a 3 minute sounds familiar with all of these examples, let's say confirmed this is the 2nd load will sabotage, minute distribution, resistance fighters and occupied you are the cripple the enemy was somehow we've taken the methods of sabotage and disruption

and sent them into and for the day at the office. how did this happen if we start with keys. okay. and the 50 now work we think that so tell us. can you tell us a little bit about what teams predicted and about what the hell went wrong? chatswood came sort of thing in the 1930. and he was trying to read something optimistic and imagine what the world would be like. for the most part, when people back then imagine what the world would be like everyone's all industrialization. it's miserable, but it's going to lead us in

a direction where the technology is going to advance so far that we're all going to be live in lives of leisure. know, will have ruled officer events taking care of us will have automation, will eliminate the drudgery of farm work factory work eventually service work as well. and that was the way the point of all of this onerous work that people were doing in factories. and this will eventually get to the point where you don't have to do it anymore. the globally, we're getting to the point where we could be in working 15 hours. um, the question i mean is why aren't the soap? so what's, what really happened is that we've created a piece of administrative offices, jobs, and these have gone from something like 25 percent of employment which they were in

kansas times or something like $70.00 the we created supervisory job as managerial jobs, clerical jobs, the millions of them around the world, the of the things that really struck in a lot of the testimony that people sent to me about their jobs was just tell on happy they were. and just to confuse they were over the fact that they were on the

there's always a shame about expressing how you feel, edward concent charades, your are you putting up and then you can never really be honest. i mean, you, of course, you know, you want the longest owners about the manager while or the director because the using the same she rates. so you only she often um so wait, wait, wait, wait, in this. sure. reality is is display

to the place based on the original sabotage manual. but we've not just started the script. we've added many new seems a lot, right. the like any place this to has a cost is curtis. the star of this to is a chief executive officer who has a star salary to match the ceo's main role is to give the big model of a stronger my natural box with which to be more successful. the speech is often rigid in front of the kind of very little to do with how the play will turn on. we are now

delivery the best products we have never known. the paying the more doesn't seem to make them any better. as all too often say, other styles of spectacular it continues to be an exciting time for devices and services. and we remain here the for the one coast that is never calculated is the human cost of all these pages or the disruptive reorganizations. and the unhappiness that goes on speaker the i had finished my ph. d in experimental social psychology. so i had been trained to do research in the lab. and i got my job at the university of california berkeley.

and i was thinking maybe what i'll do is i'll develop some new ideas about emotions which i had done laboratory research on and how people understand their feelings, how they cope with really strong emotional arousal or threatening challenging kind of things. and i thought, well, why don't i go out and talk to people who encounter this sometimes in their life. and i started interviewing them and they got emotional doing this. some of them would get angry as they talked about things, some of them would cry, some of them with, i mean, this was like, i'm thinking maybe there's a story here. maybe there's a more of a phenomenon. so i would ask people at the end of the interview, things like so when you talk about this with other people, do you have kind of a name for this? i mean, is there a way you share this? usually it was, i never talk about this with anybody. i don't want anybody to know. so

i started looking at the literature and trying to come up with concepts that seems like it would capture what people were telling me. and there was the human ization in self defense. oh no, no, no, no, you know, it's like too much baggage. they're the dehumanization know, you know, you know, kind of then okay. okay. what about detached concern? well uh, you know, it's kind of like mid with, but it's oil water. i can't, it doesn't, you know, didn't really do it. so i was still trying to figure out how to talk to people or about what they were telling me. and so i would ask the next interviews at the end, you know, human is ation self defense and then on a task concern burn out. yes. that's it burned out

our 1st physicals a complete x ocean. this was like an exhaustion which was totally new to me. but it was really that stock sometimes that i could barely get out of bed physically. i live on the 1st floor. i could, i could not walk up the stair. literally. i to pull myself off way through or supplies even and catch my breath. it was just, i felt like a like a like a 19 year old in a very bad states. well i did for i thought it was flu and a one point i'm not g b. i went to my gp and you really? yeah. put it in front of me is this flu. you a couple of a seems

a little garage and yeah, there is all i remember very well we're going back to work after and i think it was a good 5 months of of being absent and and i, i went back to work to try and walk to the office i really i remember very well like going what's and what happens to me? it was really like i was confused, confused, angry dish oriented. actually was really built into my my dad was like, where the hell did i lose? know my exits. me which how, how come that i continually is freaking highway to where i'm at now, but i should just, i missed my ex is that that's what comes of my life. i missed the freaking exit the

i want to become an engineer because my grandfather was thoughts. i want to be effective and efficient, so always adding a bar behind reflection isn't in order to show that your successful forces because you just don't even know your body is hang on us and then what's your way to fall into this new world? it's almost like a new reality. my whole self and i couldn't my to best which i was

actually sailing on my my life. i realized a cool but this is right. because otherwise i wouldn't be there. you feel like a yeah. and like i feel you because you're one of those people who fill as to where to go into the visual burnouts and that's all down to you. if you think it's only you or very few people, you know, as opposed to more then focus automatically goes. so what's my problem? why am i not strong enough? why am i not capable enough the?

and so what we saw early on was what a phenomenon that is known as pluralistic ignorance. and what that means is that you're feeling something is going wrong. not just the tier exhausts and they've got too much to do with your short changing the work. you're not doing a good job and you know what and you're feeling bad about yourself. well, you're not going to go over and chat with somebody in the coffee about. tell them feeling, know what you're going to do is you're going to put a smile on your face. i'm fine, i can handle this, i can do it. okay, and just move along and hope nobody notices. what you don't know is that there are a lot of other people around you were doing the very same thing. so your social perception is that everybody is smiling, happy doing fine. i'm the only one who's got a problem. when in fact, the reality is behind those masks behind that smiley face, there are

a lot of other people's thinking, oh my god, i'm the only one. the for on top of the problem of not being a to say what you really feel cost, that's fine. you don't understand what anybody's saying. so if you think about your average, amazing, the social contract does this, you'll sit there and speak nonsense. and also they quietly and not listen to and check my emails whether it's vacant, nonsense. busy transformation and accelerating adoption. new experiences make to to enable the application to truly knowledge how to speak the language in management. so i find mccarren nicole ch, how's cry?

he was sweat top and the kind of new age mysticism which was washing across the west coast during the sixties and seventies prior and gets um, hired by pacific bell. and his job is to come in and engage in but thankful a transformational change project workshop participants to take part in an exercise design to reception and increase sensory input of crimes role was really to kind of reprogram the employees by introducing them to his own personal philosophy, which was drawn from a russian mystical, george patriots devoted scales of good tree and would often engage and mystical dogs sang, resizing, mystical poetry, et cetera. and the board members of pacific bells and particularly chain on this. and i felt that their employees should get a bit of it as well. the

now if you look back to that language now, it sounded scandalous and strange at the time. but now that kind of everyday language, people need a justification for what they're doing for a nasal language, which makes these empty tasks, which people having companies, it gives them some substance or a parent substance. so it is a sense that cronin provides a way of covering up the gaping hole, which is corporate life. often go back to the, to the, to the like, you, with the cause of the, the burnouts. what would you say if you guys would narrow down to only a few few topics? what's, what's for you guys? what, what would you name as the the key, the key drivers of your uh yeah. i think it's been like coming out like like

mild symptoms, but mostly like i felt really strong was i think back in march this year where i kind of like fall myself not being able to do daily stuff like running errands or like talking to people like where i felt like over whelmed, by doing i like waiting myself up like brush my teeth is sit on the table. that was the hardest thing to do in the morning. and that was like the prominent symptom for me to like recognize that oh i have a problem i have, i'm embarrassing to me, but i actually sometimes felt that it would be easier if i would appreciate buy a car in the morning on my way to work because that's gonna solve the problem of not having to go there that that was like how deep i was in my own misery. like it's just like it felt so anxious and like impossible even sometimes to, to go to work because i knew like that what was the waiting. and i just felt like

if somebody or something outside of me would solve the problem, then i wouldn't have to like, think about it. but like these are things that i've only realized opposite worse. i totally refused to idea that it was similar. now, i just felt like on invincible, i can know how, but now this kind of happened to me again. so it was kind of hard for me to start to realize of me it's accept and process. it was to be a long, a long process for me. when they talk about exhaustion, if it, that's all it is. then why change the name? why just call it what it is, which is exhausting with burn out. we're talking about more than that. the exhaustion response is what we think of that stress. it is the stress response.

chronic everyday stressors. burnout is a signal is a red flag as a warning. if you start seeing problems with burn out, it's telling you not who is burning out. it's telling you why the and the 19th century link office invention of a new professional class of people who manages those manages often came from a, an engineering background. so they were quite good at sort of tuning the machinery . they began to save the people as called so they could potentially tune and make more efficient as well. the in

the mountains lighting 19 seventies. a corporation and company is no longer treated as a entity with people. and that's the purpose of the cooperation is to maximize shareholder value. companies began to cite how much human capital, if we got and they began to trade their employees like a kind of balance sheet which they couldn't measure manage as if by half an hour history is. if i have no family as if i have no attachment to place that's not even just the call that the machine itself is occurring digital line on a bell and save some way that can be easily deleted at that price of a t the burn out is all in engineering, i mean rocket boosters, burnouts, you know,

ball bearings, burnouts. so it's not a surprise that when they started silicon valley startups, they called them burnout shops. they advertised as burnout shops because this is what the life is going to be like. but it was intended to be unlimited time is intended to be a sprint to the 4 or 5 years. max is now the model for a marathon. this is the way we do business all the time. for years, human body cannot run a marathon at a sprint, pays the most people come to work really wanted to make a difference. and it starts with the most basic, clear expectations. so when people come to work,

they need to know what their role as and too often in organizations. now, people don't. the, one of the great challenges of leadership is bringing teams together, creating a common purpose. how that mission or purpose comes to life is the manager. it's the manager that helps out employees see how that work connects to that bigger picture. oftentimes we put people in managerial positions for a couple reasons. we asked managers, how do you get into your job? one change and run their organization a long time to i was really successful, an individual contributor before. as a manager neither of those 2 things correlate with being an effective matcher. the

motivation is going to be a manager because i'll probably get paid more of feel like i've reached a higher level in the organization. those are to human nature motivations that it's hard to get people out of unless you have a path where somebody can see they have a highest team position, maybe even paid more than managers for being an exceptional individual contributor . the they may not think about people as individuals, may not even naturally care about them as individuals that much. so they think almost completely about the work itself, not about how that person can develop over time. so what it does is it deteriorates the culture of the team, but it also isn't good for the manager. but that's the system or the right the

passage that's work that's happened inside organizations. if you're gonna be what a root cause of all this is that that would be one of the here's the financial logic to make somebody a manage it just because the good of doing a sudden job and you pay the more not to do the job anymore. and instead of do a job that they're not qualified to do with the results of the productivity of everybody else and the team goes done, but you still have to pay the salaries. meanwhile the new manager has to prove to his boss that he's still getting results. so he has a management consultant to try and fix the problem. it produces a cool report. petoskey time changes, nothing but you still pay the consult the well, i mean i don't know how many minutes i had that i was and i think only 2. so maybe 10 percent, which you could, i'd really, really have a personal,

a conversation was which made it to a complete difference in how i was actually doing. my job is to ask a quick question. it's something that, that everybody is touched upon here. you know, you talk about the expectations from childhood, about working life. do you remember a specific instance of that clash between expectations and reality? i will start thinking about this. so yes i, i mentioned earlier on the big sis during the family and i have a business associates to you, you know, sound good and i am and we are very different. and she is the, the was spirit and the one who has been searching for herself for her entire life where us, i've been the more of the, a rational one perhaps,

and the one who gets good grades and like, just like do what the society is expecting me to do and that's why i said, or the other day i felt like there was this train for me. so i, i jump on the train, then there is the school. you got the good results. you do good. don't upset the teachers. then of course i will go to uni, it's law school or middle school or whatever fee the good girl. maybe the point is like i, i feel like i was something. and then i was like shapes into like, suffocated into being like something else. something less, something smaller and, and that's why i kind of developed the sense that i'm, i'm not good enough and i am, there is something wrong with me. like there is something fundamentally deeply wrong with me as a human being. and perhaps that is something that i've been trying to kind of spend on 6 through these different achievements in life like goats that go to you and you

get those results because i felt that that is my responsibility. as vanessa as, as the person, i am like, i am the person who is supposed to do these things. one of the things that are assassinated me over the years is education. it's almost designed to destroy the natural curiosity we have is somehow, you know, when you're in primary education, they're beating that out. if you're just drawing that natural curiosity, then when you go to higher education, the kind of halfway you never quite get back to where you were when you were 5. but, you know, maybe you get a little just enough that you can function and then intellectual many of the

rituals and structures of primary education are designed to prepare people from factory later. so that's why they have bells ringing in the after get up and they have to move from room to room. there's a particular reason except for the interesting questions for me is why they don't do it because it's not like very many kids going to school are going to be working in factories anymore. the flight conclusion is that they are preparing us for a life that isn't going to make a lot of sense. the, they're teaching us not to ask questions about the things that any intelligent person who hadn't been so trained would like. but why are we throwing out this for him if we don't get any money either way, any way? why are we reading this report?

is nobody's going to read all these things that anybody, animals, that job really should be asking, but those as the condition of their employment that they should be able guy shows up at a white coat are acting like, even though it's already faster than nokia has ever gone before, just play a lot, the children 1st figure out that they are separate from the world around them. when they realize they can have predictable facts, we answer the scenario we're say child is moving his arms around and he moves

a pencil, pencil there, and rolls down the tables. and these figures out what happens, he gives us down to get on the road a little further. this is great. oh my god, you know, i mean i am an entity that cannot affect some things and, and that's the moment you realize you were a person. and there was a world in there, they're not the same thing. the and, and you take that away. people just collaborative sat or is there a sense of self really bring basis? what makes us human or feeling the,

the strikes means that we need to re evaluate what we see as valuable in late because we, if we have got to a situation where mueller, and they choose you to be the bless, one, where confront them. so that you kind of have to feel your life is the company live . so you don't have an identity anymore. but you are the company, the say like when you press a button and you open it. if the finish on you will get married in 3 years of been assisting 2 or 3 of the organization or people have been losing

their jobs, where people have been crying, what they were were working sense plenty of some more. so in the back of my head, i always tied back like your giving the best of yourself to this company, but remember one day they will call you and say you have to fucker stuff in a week. i had a relationship for a few years. so we were living together and of course we decide to start a family together. and then um, we could not buy a house together to, to our income's because it was just too low. i was the one of the 2 had a better contract. i had a better income, so i felt like if i fail in this job, we will not buy a house. so we will not build up a family, it will be all my fault. so sweet distress at home, i was doing extra work at home. so was not really there for the couple for living together at that point,

what happened to me is that i work too much at the points that i kind of destroy it's my private life. i was very frustrated because i thought i'd work hard for more than 10 years. i want to set them down. i want to have kids. i want to do this kind of things and i cannot. the corporations are a grand example of the emperor has no clothes. it's all about from us. it's all about what we're going to do in the future. constantly undergoing these change processes, reorganization, restructuring, downsizing, rightsizing, people, your people, you shift around the signs, but very little at the end of the day actually changes

we know lots of people, many people who lose the job but often becomes extremely stressful for the people who died of the most things that done, not necessarily because they need to be done because the seo has to show that something is happening, the co 1000 price is financially very fit the price. so make a recommendation of what they think the price of a shares should be. nothing actually changes on how well the company does, but the share price goes up because of since the ride things in the financial lockets. but that also means because the c o is often rewarded on the basis of stock options or share price, the a pay goes up the, the,

what is the most pernicious thing about our current economic system. is that the more your work benefits others are an obvious and immediate sense? the more your work has a clear and undeniable beneficial effect than other human beings. the less you are likely to get paid for the if you look at the graphs, we just basically say it was completely flat, whereas part time it, it continues to rise precipitously. so the big question is, what's happened to that extra profit? again, left the story and we tell ourselves that this time it's not entirely true is a it all got pumped into finance. basically profits went to richest one percent of

the population. and they basically are gambling the always the running all my life to study and get a job in a company. and so i couldn't have a good life. i'm going to buy an amazing house, you know, for myself. and then i want to be single and traveling for a long time, and then i want to have kids and set them down and it is just a big dream. and it's just an inducement. the stuff for me to gave up to so much of my private life and then also have the i

receiving the results that i expected to it was just mind blowing timeframe stopped working. i couldn't tell you like, this is the feeling that i have now like something break inside my brain. and i, i cannot picture how that happened. it was unbelievable. the, the original sabotage manual was written for a world where most people who worked for for a to the machine the but we being just as effective of sabotaging work in our old web most work relies not on the machine but on the brain. power of humans the also so the original manual would have been amazed at how effective our sabotage has been. only 20 percent of the

workforce are engaged in the work those that manage them. a seldom qualified for the job. and the less of the benefits of work goes to those who do the work. why are we creating ways society creating an environment in which people are doing really good work necessary work, beneficial work and making them do it in a way that it just sort of tears them apart and you know how big oh so how to make of that realization that the setting and the environment in which people function really, you know, as much as possible. how do we design it to make people really grow and thrive?

we've known for a long time all about organ nomics that we have to design furniture and tools that adapt to the human body. you may not like the way the human body was designed, but that's the way it functions. i guess i'm talking more about organ nomics in terms of the social psychological, what makes people tick. this is the way things to me and they seem to come during some a past and they because are lots and lots to all the other at the moment. and i'm actually for the 1st time in 20 years doing something i really care about. i feel like i'm making a difference. i'm working in a meaningful industry and, and, but yet i'm still experiencing the symptoms of a, of a burn out sort of how of a still cool. so this stage, what is this going wrong? you know, i will, is it the all have done wrong night available? one way of in panic attacks is it, is it because of you and i could have the same job and there's something out there

that drives you crazy and i'm ok. what has been discovered in a lot of research by lot of people is at least 6 areas where that kind of job person balance room balance the fits or the missing occurs that can be predictive if they're, if it's a good fit of greater engagement with the work if it's a bad fit, the risk burnout becomes more of a problem. the workload is, was always huge. and there is no like, uh long term projects. its always like for yesterday that you need to deliver. so the one that everybody thinks about his workload, and that is the one that is probably most clearly tied to problems with exhaustion . and basically the imbalance there are the misfit is that the demands are really

high and the resources to handle those demands are low. you don't have enough time, you don't have the right information. you don't have the tools, you don't, you know, there's no way that that can be done given, given that way. instead of ever having 1st major red initial one task in tomorrow, you have plenty more because they need to expand to other countries. second one is control. and that's really the extent to which you have some choice and discretion, some autonomy, some way of deciding how best to do the job given what it is like today. as opposed to you have no discretion, no choice. you must do this. and what we find is it's not so much workload, but if you have high workload and you have high control, no problem. when you have high work or no control it's like system is pushing up the rock and all of a sudden end of the day. it's back in the

when there is in sufficient reward, that means that no matter what, what you do, how successful you are, how great you are, meeting the deadlines and getting things done and something no good feedback comes . the reward is not just about the salary or the benefit. mean, i don't want to throw that out, but i mean, that's not usually the biggest. the big is, are the social recognition. the appreciation that somebody noticed you really, you know, oh my gosh, i really got out of a bind there by the thing that you did. and i think so much say, you know, we couldn't have done it without 2 little things like that. also go down. i'm going to have to logo in my eyes, so you know, just people could around why is open to 8. and the, because it was like, you know, and you have to leave them free by values and you need to be a change agent. and you need to do this and you need to do that. community is

really the, the, the social environment that you are the people who come in contact on a regular basis. okay. we have a flexible time, you know, have a flexible, you know, a working time, but every day 10 am and have a meeting. sorry. okay, this flexible, like you're giving me okay. i could get, i work from 12 to 9. know when it works well, when there is social support, mutual, social support, you know, we sort of help each other out. if somebody is unclear, we kind of clarify when there is trust when there is kind of respect for each other . and uh, you know, notion of reciprocity, when all of that is working well, quite honestly, it is like money in the bank, even though i give them the message, listen guys, this is too much for me and i got a burnout because of this. they don't care, they just like hide the problem and they keep them doing whatever they have to do

when people feel they are working in a place that is unfair, the trees, people unfairly this will raise the level of that cynicism sky high. and if there is a value conflict is even worse. we need to take into account or human beings are like and how they function. what makes them motivated? what makes them do great things? what do they need to recharge and reboot and you know, have a life the

for generations. people thought they were working really hard. so some of the create a world where people don't have to work something that's where robots will do the, the unpleasant directory, repetitive skits of labor, that nobody really wants to do the now we're living under a system, a capitalist market system, which is supposed to be efficient, it can allocate resources in a way that will guarantee maximum production of property buildings maybe create, makes people unhappy, but ultimately it creates better good by being the most efficient system. anybody can ever imagine the,

i mean, any efficient system you think should be able to reallocate resources in such a way that we work last and everybody still has it up the heat. if we can't do that, there's something terribly wrong. i mean, we haven't been insanely ridiculously, in a sense of the, i think we should change the way we think of the economy. what's not talk about production and consumption. looks good for isn't actually making store of it's, it's not changing it even, you know, transforming it to make it into something else just trying to keep it the same. so you gotta take care of things. so i'll say fall apart. then they tell us, well, you know, we're going to create robots so that will get rid of all our jobs. this is

a big problem. well, you can't have people not too much leisure time. they'll build something. perhaps they'll just sit around watching tv all day. they won't, they won't be able to figure out what to do with themselves. people do want to contribute to the world, maybe a little better for the people around them and left of their own devices. they're more likely to do something useful then if they're not the so how do we know we're going to have a world full of annoying street minds or, or had, oh, it says, off of musicians. so a crank scientists will holl, lower periods, are trying to k perpetual motion devices, and all we need is like one of those bad musicians to be miles davis or john lana or his is craig scientist, to be einstein. and you know, you pretty much made back your invest on

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