i currently more people than a worldwide in such a passion life. but a crisis within pod went back a little somebody. that's what i believe with that and the best. there was a little i find out about bailey's story. info, migraines, reliable news for migrant. wherever they may be, ah, the war in ukraine has global implications and is increasingly becoming a clash of systems. western democracies are feeling challenged by autocracies, like russia and china. both models want to prevail. so far china's piece plan for ukraine has found little favor in the west. instead, there are warnings from the us about possible arms deliveries from china to russia, and russia's ally,

alexander lucas shinkel personally travel to china. both sides are unable to find an agreement in our courting non aligned countries like g 20 host india, for example, which has seen a wave of diplomatic efforts, including a visit by german chancellor, will have choice. so on to the point we ask war in ukraine, our new alliances dividing the world with . welcome to this week's to the point i'm how are you there? yes, it's good to have you with us and i'd like to introduce our guests this week. felix lee is a journalist, a long time corresponded in china, and currently works for the specialized german use outlet. china table. catch a glow guy as a freelance journalist and russia expert. and e shabba is my colleague from d w. joining us today from barn to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being with us today. and i'd like to start with you each are talking about this so called war

of words that we've seen. also in the g 20 foreign ministers meeting that is taking place in india, m, as india is hosting the g 20 this year. we've seen western countries and especially usa, china selling and this idea, this notion that this worse just not about ukraine and russia, but that is it, it is a war on democracy at shared values that the west says it stands for. do you think that's the right approach to get support from other countries? i think it's also joe biden, who had said that the was about democracy was as a doctor, doctor sees. and the problem there is said when you do the one in these 2 different jars, pharmacies or then you don't get the support from the other countries the way you want to add up to experts. and they've told me that the rest is actually out of

touch with the global south and west needs to have a reality check in that is why countries in the global south india or china and not really doing exactly what the west has expected to do. i'm gonna, it's your problem. it's a western problem. you don't have much to do with it. it's a conflict that's happening far away in europe. and we don't really need to do anything about, and we have our own channel problem and especially countries in the global. so we have a lot of other problems that they need talk about, and that's what is happening now in g. 20 india is making sure that ukraine doesn't jermaine, the main team as it has been for the last one. pretty much all the conferences and gee, 20 last year. so that's the way india and the global out. they look at them which is not similar to the west ones. and that's one perspective that they are certainly trying to change. now if we take a look at the other side, catcher, russian president vladimir putin came out to say that nato and it's ours,

are trying to dismantle russia. while that may not be the goal, isn't it true that for the u. s. and maybe also for china, for example, it does seem to be a profitable, if you will, that russia is a weaker country. if you look at rushes perspective, conflict, even the war with or against the west and righteous war in moscow's perspective, had started a long time ago. he is in years ago. and now the west, so called collective west as moscow puts it on, is waging a war against russia on ukrainian territory. and russia has not only to defend herself and russian civilization against the collective west and u. s. a. he demoniac politics. but

also as a peitner, so to say of the global south defending a new mighty pola world order. i think this is the view from moscow and that meets and quite some interests also in countries in the global south who blame the collective, so west and with about hypocrisy and many problems that there are also everything for sure. and in the midst of all of this, of course, there is china, felix, if it is a class of systems, we have to look at the super powers. china presented a piece plan ukraine, and that you also presented a plan what you make of the chinese proposal. well, it's clearly mod her satisfying for the western countries proposal. pretty much

the positioning by china as it was, it hasn't changed much much. i mean, a china blames the west for the root, ukrainian war doesn't criticize russian for, for, for starting the war. but on the same hand, china is trying to somehow get control of or of is afraid of losing control that are put in my or might escalades us. what even more or that even to, to my, the putting system, my collapse, that is the biggest fear. because china is very much afraid that either way, if putting is not there anymore, that russia becomes pro western or gets a leader which is a, which is even more aggressive than putting these 2 options. shanna is afraid of. so china sees it important now to intervene somehow. and the piece plan is

maybe a very tiny step, but it is a step that china wants to try to influence this conflict. china's position certainly is complicated, and there is lots of speculation about china's intentions. at the moment a crucial player in the world stage. china has many experts guessing china's top diplomat wang visits moscow a year after the russian army invaded ukraine. he assures putin that the comprehensive strategic partnership will be strengthened further. but beijing presents itself to the world as a neutral mediator with a 12 point plan foresees fire and peace negotiations. yet criticism of moscow's invasion does not get mentioned. how far does china's alliance with russia go? warnings are coming from the u. s. government and your concerns and china's considering us supporting russia's war effort in ukraine with lethal assistance.

this would be a real problem for shine, as written as relationships with many other countries. not just the united states, there is speculation that china could supply combat turns and munitions to russia, especially since moscow is allegedly running out of drones from iran, but even ukrainian intelligence rejects that beijing said that stands for peace and communication. maybe about your life, doug. the u. s. is the largest provider of weapons on the battlefield in ukraine noble and he will give you in the future. how credible is china's plan for peace? that's of course a crucial question and catch a peace plan on the one hand possible arms deliveries to russia. on the other hand, what is china steam, do we know bout arms deliveries, weapons, drones. nobody really knows for sure. so we, in this context, we rely on

u. s. information. um. so there is no for say hi, truth. um, at least not so far i think um, when it comes to russia and ukraine. um, china in certain ways facing the dilemma as well. because on the one hand, they are kind of interested um that this war is fought because a lot of you as resources, lots of you as a tension, goes into europe into this war. and they are interested in having russia as a partner, but is the small peitner as the inferior peitner. and as a country delivering commodities et discounted prices that china dictates, ah, but they are not interested in an escalation of this war when it comes to the economy when it comes to supply chains. we had that last year and doing

depend amex, and they're certainly not interested in a risk that vladimir putin might or could escalate this war in a nuclear way in by putting the button on tactical nuclear weapons. we certainly have to be careful with speculations about what china is doing and what consequences we see, felix if china decided to actually provide arms to russia. well then china would definitely give up its neutral position. at the moment, the experts call it the pro russian neutrality, or it means that it doesn't criticize russia, but still remains neutral in this conflict. and this is for china, very important because of course, china is also dependent on her economy relationship with the war, with western countries, with your, with us. and if china pro delivers reels or weapons,

her strong weapons to russia, this new truck, tragedy would be gone. and obviously a, the u. s. would put up sanctions on china and this is what channel does not want. so there might be weapons from china in russia, but i don't know. it is so far. i don't see that it would make much since in china's prospect of to provide officially weapons to russia either made one little point exactly when it comes to sections. i mean so far, um, at least from what we know and china has been following in the way the sanctions policies the west are imposed against russia. we don't know about illegal sort of se deliveries of semiconductors are the pilots for weapons productions and stuff. but a, so far, but china has been very cautious and not to take side of russia by

i'm going against sections that the west imposed against russia. and hence, we've also seen lots of warnings of by the united states. as we also mentioned is her what kind of sanctions could we be seeing from the u. s. or that has seems to be mobilizing politically, in order to already worn every one, the china as a possibly at least considering delivering war arms to, to russia. what consequences would china face certainly, do we know? well, we don't know exactly what kind of consequences could that be. but in the last couple of years, we've already seen a lot of tension in the end of an a, b, c, u. s. and china constantly being in conflict with each other and i don't think the china would like to escalate that because that's not going to change any way. china really needs russia and china. i would want the war being done,

which is also in china's fema. so i think as being neutral, china is it, he's pretending to be neutral in females. cecil and by presenting these 12 points, china has taken a step further. but there's nothing really complete there that could really, you know, take us into the direction of peace. and that is where adult layers i would say in the army. so there's india, that's waiting for it from mr. more, the reason decent. and when all of shows was bad and new to any, that movie would like to help and whichever we can. and india as you know. and you'll also see that serve as the big brother when it comes to the south. so india doesn't want to miss that chance, and india certainly i it as well. that if china makes a mistake, if china does send something to russia, then jenna will lose its credibility. and my next 12 points only becomes not 20 points. i will not be in

a position to say that v can be your mediator because now if you become part of russia by sending, that means that that is the risk. and the reason why many countries, including india, as we just heard, have so far, abstained from very harshly condemning this war. india is the world's largest democracy, and so far it has not specifically condemned the war against ukraine are probably also due to several different interests. the latest un resolution was not voted in favor off for a variety of reasons why india and russia have maintained a close relationship for decades. moscow supplies india with around 60 percent of its arms, while the u. s. think tank estimates. it's closer to 85, even during the cold war, the soviet union supplied weapons to help them fight that bitter enemy pakistan on the indian economy is hungry for energy. since the russian war of aggression

against ukraine, india has imported about 5 times the amount of oil from russia than in previous years. and we will be with goose which at the same time the west has a growing interest in india as the largest democracy. and as an alternative to china, the country of nearly 1400000000 people will soon become the world's 4th largest economy. according to the international monetary fund. there is a desire for more business with the u. s. in europe, but not for political interference. prime minister modi recently made this position clear to chance the shoulds regarding the ukraine war is india dance, representative of the entire global south india, like many other countries in the midst of those power struggles, asia, why is india so reluctant to clearly position itself in this war when it

comes to russia in jo ann just really have a really long days and a callback decades. we can have a complete episode on that. so no, not get into that. but the in, in foreign minister has been seeing a lot of things in the last few months, which really explain what india stands is for one at the statement that he gave last year. and then the rest has to change its mindset that the west problems are the was problems. but there was problems are not this problem. that means it needs to be changed. he said bad and that day a lot of media outlets said that he sounded extremely out again by saying that. but the see that those ones will actually be recorded in the munich security report and urban johnson of all of shaws also quoted him. and he said he has a point, so that's where vist sees that are, okay, we are actually losing fat with the global south. and india being are the by in years. so to say of google sound is giving us

a message and we have to beat that seriously. another thing that the foreign minister institution go has been stressing is that whatever decision in the antiques in down that only keep in mind, it's deeper in their little be keep in mind, what does god for it's population. and india is not a very rich country, india is still in emerging economy and very important economy is in competition with china. but india is still not allowed to nation. and so india has to be decisions that are important for its people. and that is the, uh, the whole argument here. and in the i see that you're not going to let anybody dividers in blocks. in fact, i remember, foreign minister even been gone, perceive that blocks is a very, very stern dumb analogy, a lady best and understanding off the geopolitical ordered. and that's to invest looks at things, but india and the global. so they will not look at things like that. because they have their own problems to deal with this hunger this forward. be those education

a lot of in the g 20 countries and the countries in the south they need to focus on and hands in just wants to keep from in the thing that's happening right now, except it wants to me, if given a chance that's exactly the point many countries also in latin america, for example. we've seen it in mexico, we've seen it in brazil. simply do not want to be on either camp. that's how at least, how it seems. felix, why do you think there's so much pressure from the so called western nations to get all these countries on board? well, what the west is trying is trying to isolate, of course, russia and the u. s. also has this goal to try to isolate china, which is much, much more difficult. i mean, china is, is the number one global player now it's, it has economy ties to it. almost every country in this world. and

yes and, and since the u. s. is trying to make china as the big enemy in all, most other countries have problems with that. the european countries already have problems with that. but so especially the countries emerging countries and also the countries of the global thought towards russia. i think it's a little bit simpler for a lot of countries to take fight. maybe also to take a pro western side. but what they also have experience is they don't share the same interest in a lot of subjects, topics. but one goal the share is that they don't want to get to independent from the u. s. and that is why the reason they take this opportunity with a crisis in ukraine to show do u. s. hey, we have our own voice. we don't want to be just a puppet from,

from washington. and there's also a lot of oracle resentment towards the united states and many regions of the world, of course, catch a. do you think that's one of the reasons why this strategy doesn't seem to be working that well? there might be historical reasons. so to say, although the experience of many countries in the global south, especially in africa or southeast asia, vietnam is that the soviet union's propaganda and talk about the colonizing the, the world and helping the poor countries to free themselves from the american hegemony hedge money that this was double speak as well. i mean, they remember this quite clearly, but for them, for the global south, um it is in a way, a chance with the kind of new self confidence to express their interest to say,

hey, and you don't know us yet. and we are defending our interests and our interest is um to act for our populations when it comes to education, when it might come to women's rights when it comes to fighting the climate crisis, which is certainly the issue number one. and we're not talking about democracy and autocracy, and or this is, this is a separate issue. but there is this new self confidence of many countries in the global south. and i would argue that this is not a bad thing. certainly having the self confidence is not a bad thing. the sure. do you think that equation didn't really work out thinking that just because a country is a democracy or because it stands for say,

human rights, for example, um or individual liberties that it doesn't automatically go on the needle side, in this case? no, it does not. and coming back to that point, a lot has changed in the south. in the last decade, economically, the countries have developed and they are in a much more powerful position. they know they do the new york china, and they actually know that the world and especially the rest, depends on them. international she'd have really depends on them. and so now they want to make a statement that you can't ignore the agency of the global sell anymore. which maybe you've done in the past, but that can't happen anymore. and these neutral countries are major players in global economy. so as you see, it's the 1st time that emerging economies who was g 20 residency for 4 years in a row. you had indonesia last year. you have india this year. you have received an

exterior south africa the year after that. and that has never happened, that itself is a statement that the vote on it is shifting. and then these countries did not have to do everything that not all of this is trying to do them. so basically what it means is that the best needs to be pink, how it is going to have all these countries on this is it can just give its own explanation and expect that the other countries will follow. and the discourse still seems to be one of unity. felix, what do you think when you look forward? will this cause more divisions worldwide? if at some point countries will have to choose either side? well, definitely, if we're talking about multi multi polar world is getting more complicated also. i mean it's fair enough that not the wes, this only dictating what the world all supposed to be. but of course, it's getting much more complicated and, and the west has to cope with it has to change his attitude has to

accept that chart. for example, china is not a democracy, authoritarian country, but 222, isolate china. you, you are in, you will not be able to, to, to deal with all the big problems we have. for example, climate change. and i think that only goes on doesn't only in control china, but also a lot of countries in the world. and this other half is the 3rd big challenge. the west has to deal with luscious aggression and ends ukraine. this horrible war certainly led to new unity also when it came or comes to democratic well use of the west that say europe and the united states are nato, a countries and new nato, a members on, on the one hand. so a, and this unity and solidarity, it's certainly really important in that sense. the atlantic is shrinking so far.

but i'm, i'm still, i'm, i'm, i'm really very worried um, because russia is by way not that isolated as we think it, we, in germany or in europe would think that, that she is, we talked about this. and i'm also worried because we don't really know who would be the next president in the united states. and whether that shrinking distance of the over the atlantic will enlarge all of a sudden to a horrible distance. we certainly can only hope for the best to all 3 of you. thank you very much. isa felix hatcher, for the insights to you. of course, who watching and remember, you can always comment on videos on youtube bicycle searching. d, w to the point the next time, take care bye. a

with

or a conflict with sebastian. it says it will stand with ukraine for as long as it takes us with joining the union for so a long way to go with the war. now the 2nd year, what happened to the son and see about a new membership?

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a cool cool, great guy, but it is just me in the middle oh ah ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin. the world's 20 leading nations divided by war g 20 foreign ministers wrap up their meeting in india. unable to agree on a statement about russia's invasion of ukraine. what the u. s. and russia break the ice as their top diplomats meet on the sidelines.